Madd 170 wins Nationals

[palmer7716]

Massachusetts Series rider Steve Fleck won the USASA Jams Division (18-22) National Championship in GS at Copper Mtn, CO. He accomplished this on a Madd 170 and PTC “striped bass” base structure. For those unfamiliar to the USASA it is snowboarding’s last core competition organization. The USASA consists of 37 regions in the US that qualify riders in different age categories and a pro division for the Nationals Championships in late March/early April. This years event was at Copper in Colorado. The USASA qualifies athletes in all 5 snowboard disciplines: ½ pipe, slope style, GS, Sl and BX. The USASA truly represents snowboarding grass roots!

In addition to his gold in GS Steve also won gold for Combined Alpine and silver in Slalom. Steve works for Wachusett Mountain as a snowboard instructor and trains gates with Noah Cermak at Bousquet in Western Mass. While superior riding skills helped put Steve on the podium he would also be quick to point out that the Madd 170 and PTC tune were key factors in his victory. Congrats to Steve for his great riding accomplishments! Congrats to Madd for placing a rider on the podium in a very competitive alpine industry where riders are willing to pay top $ for a board that is a fraction of a second faster and congrats to Mike at PTC for coming up with another winning structure! If you have never ridden a PTC tune you are wasting your time. It is the only way to go fast as hell!

For information on any of the following go to:
www.usasa.org
www.maddmikes.com
www.precisiontuningcenter.com or www.summitskishop.com

[Jack Michaud]

That blows my mind. I would have thunk the 170 too turny for GS racing. Congrats Madd!

[palmer7716]

podium shots

[jp1]

couldn't happen to a nicer guy !

[Jim Callen]

The board was a bit too turny for the first course they had set. I beat steve by about 4/100th's of a second oin the first run and I screwed up pretty badly. The second run was far turnier and more technical than the first, and the Madd excelled like you wouldn't believe. He rode so well though, it wasn't just the Madd.

[Bordy]

Nice seeing you at Copper, Did you notice Phils June camp info? Well worth looking into as a CO Kid! nice work this year! Good luck next year. Maybe I'll see you in Copper in june.

PS. Jack your right the Madd 170 is way to tight for GS not to mention way to small, there was a guy riding a 170 in open class men but he did not last so long. It is how ever a sick free riding stick and under the right riders feet in the right course conditions could and did do well, but not at the FIS level.

Congrats to The Kid who rode it to the podium!

[Jack Michaud]

Sometimes when I think I've got things all figured out, someone comes along and dashes that perception on the rocks. Like the time I raced in the (long defunct) New England Cup when it came to Sugarloaf. I thought I was going to rule the GS on my PJ7, but Mike Kildevaald showed up and eurocarved the course on a PJ5 and crushed the rest of the field by about 2 seconds.


So if suddenly 170s became all the rage in GS racing, I'd be dumbfounded, but what do I know?

(pretty sure it was Kildy)

[palmer7716]

I hope I didn't take credit away from Steve with my original post. He absolutley rips! I was trying to give credit to all, but realize Steve deserves the most credit.

Remeber size of rider and course set matter in racing. Steve is lucky if he weighs 150 soaking wet. For him the 170 works nice. For a fat bastard like me I may need the Madd 180!

[sfleck]

yeah, the 170 is definitely a bit turny for an open GS course. But the course for the second run was nice and technical, so I can't complain. This is just my own opinion here, but I think that a lot depends on the rider's style. I'm a lighter guy, and I tend to take a much straighter line, sometimes maybe even too straight, so I like a board that hooks up quick, and will really pop at the end of the turn. Bigger guys, or people who like to ride a much rounder line, probably want something a bit longer, and definitely with more sidecut. Anyways, I wanna throw some props in Jim's direction for his performance. He was rippin it up in the GS course, and I was amazed when I heard it was only his 5th race. Had a great time out at copper, and frankly, its a little depressing to come back here to MA after a week like that. But at least we have bomber to keep us going till next season right? I mean, my girlfriend sure isn't gonna listen to me talk about snowboarding all summer

[Bordy]

Jack,

I have seen kildy train and crush a SL course on a 203cm Prior before anyone knew what a Prior was, But is anyone racing 203 in SL? No but it was the only stick he had so he rode it. You have ridden the 170 Madd and know what it is all about. The kid won the 18-22 year old catagorey on a madd 170 at the USASA level. Perhaps I would be more moved if it was the open class men or even a USSA event. I saw Steve out riding the madd and he had a great weekend, I think he may have even taken 2nd in SL in his Age group. I wonder if he was riding the 58? He did a great job!

Point being, Please do not let one Athletes performance in his age group value the 170 as a true race board that "dashes your perception" you know what a true race board is and the 170 is for sure a freeride board.

Check out the course times for other age groups in GS and then pass judgement. Also the brackets in the Mens open GS got really messed up in the finals allowing several lower qualifing riders to race each other, instead of a higher qualifing rider racing a lower qualifing rider so some of the top 4 got very lucky while several of the fast guys had to race each other and knock one another out(Anton ,Sortenberg,Nyberg). It was a huge shame that USASA felt was only a paper work error, but cost some riders spots on the poduim!

Wantanabe was running Pure race stock team only F2 product in the mens open GS (top secert built in Conshock!) as were any of the truley fast guys Prior, Donek,Colier, were all there and were all much bigger then a 170 free ride stick 180+ 14-15m radius

You still know all you think you do and have no reason to be dumbfounded! In till you ride Titinal however!!!!!

Heck first round of the finals I raced A guy in soft boots it was a a great USASA event! Perhaps we both know nothing and soft boots are going to over take Racing!!!

O-yea Wantanabe 2 handed layed out euro carved his first GS qualifier in a pretty US frestyle team one piece from the early 90's so you know the event was hardcore!! hardcore fun!!!!! I think he turned a 28.7ish It was sweet. Plus the kid is a world cup winner!

[mirror70]

Congrats Steve! I always knew you were slow

You know, if you're looking for snow......I'm gonna be up here through Saturday...... You have my cell #.


Does anyone know why the top Open class times aren't posted?

[Bordy]

open class was duel not 2 run!
Anton fastest SL run was a 21.4 ish

Wantanabe and Anton and Mort ran high 27 low 28 as there fastest runs. avarge fast guy time was under 30 in mens GS

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Bordy

Point being, Please do not let one Athletes performance in his age group value the 170 as a true race board that "dashes your perception" you know what a true race board is and the 170 is for sure a freeride board.

You still know all you think you do and have no reason to be dumbfounded! In till you ride Titinal however!!!!!

Well I certainly didn't see the Prior 4WDs coming either!

I know the "rules" of what should work for GS racing. Then there are the exceptions. Congratulations Steve!!

Can't wait to try a titanal board on "normal" carving conditions.

[Bordy]

Jack the 4wd were just the tahoe team riding Morts gear, It was in no way the big deal Kent sold it as here on BOL as a matter of fact I was just riding with one of the tahoe kids while he was testing new GS boards for next year, man was he suprised by how much different a true GS race board felt then the 4wd he was riding! He was just about ready to dump his 4wd on the spot.

Kent did a real good job of creating a lot more buzz Here on the forum then there really was. It was three Guys from Tahoe all riding Mort Nybergs hand me downs that were all 4wd. That all!

I dont for see any one else Jumping on the 4wd band wagon and some of the 3 will not be riding the 4wd next year.

It so hard to keep this forum and the racing world on the same page. Most of the info posted is only a little peice of the picture or some one elses(kents) perseption. The guys riding the 4wd gear were all just trying out some stuff there Coach (Mort) said they should. Since this thread has less veiwers now, I feel more inclined to state the calaber of contest USASA is it is truley the steping stone to USSA and FIS now that ISF is gone. Altough id may be the largest event in the US it does not draw as many of the heaveys as it should(truley a shame) sio the Open calss is not a great representation of the talent of riders in the US currently, However were USASA shines is in there Age groups. The athletes who compete at this level are the ones who benifit the most. It allows the athlete the chance to compete against there peers on courses set conguntly with the age group. Therefor many of the course set do not reflect the upper levels of racing in the States but instead a Challenging Course to all competators reguardless of gear or ability. Most course setteras pride them selves in the ability to use not just the terrain but also the calaber of athletes a a medium to set by hence a course more suited to this rider or this board etc.

So to consider a madd 170 a possible GS style race board for the future is very unrealistic due to the max min setting for GS in all events not just USASA In some aspects it would be like saying the cat who won the 8-10 age group was riding a Burton Chopper with soft boots so Burton Choppers may be the future of racing.

I am not deturing from the Kid profomance I am of course stoked for any on competeing and give mad props of course to steve since in no way shape or form are we grading his proformance he of course receives the A for the win!!

But to indacate the possibility of the Madd 170 creating a buzz in the upper events is far fetched. I have seen some of the Girls try out the 170 to free ride on, But no one indacated the board having any more use then a fun free ride stick. Which is what it was desighned to do and does so wonderfully!!!

Sorry for the rough draft I have no time to edit. Hope its readable!

[Kent]

Whoa Billy....trying to push me under the bus? I never advocated a 4WD for racing. Matter of fact, I tried to talk GS out of dropping $$$$ on....not one, but two. When someone offers you free boards, but you spend a month's pay on buying another brand...you sure hope it's going to pay off and you're not buying hype.

Open Class USASA is what it is....an open class. The competition is only as good as the folks who show up. People complain either way. IMO, the most talented snowboard racers in the US don't race anymore and/or think the races are silly. I wish that mindset would change, but it won't.

I have the utmost respect for you guys and the regulars who committ to the USSA schedule, but its a far cry from making a living. Bring back the AST, get some sponsors and start offering some prize money. USASA fills a nice void for the more casual folks.

Otherwise, it still the same 25 guys pounding a square peg into a round hole......


As for (the new) Madd 170 and 158, they are not race boards.....

[Bobby Buggs]

Steve,
shoot me a e-mail about your riding next season
buggs@evilsports.com

[Bordy]

Kent I am of course not tring to push you under the Bus. When you posted about the use of 4wds in GS after the Break GP you did do a good job of creating a buzz about people riding them here on BOL and lots of people responed to that buzz. Jack just made rererance to them as race boards and as you and I both know there were only 3 guys riding them, Heck there are some times still cats running soft boots at GPs.

I dont think I would agree that the most talented guys dont race anymore either.

I would love to see any of the retired racers of the two run format come out and get there Duel on. I know as a guy making a come back this year, were I stood then vs. now and there are some very fast kids out there. Look at Justins move to the WC and how he did with the big boys and how he sits here in the states!

I beleive the talent pool here in the US to be as good if not better then any country out there. Problem is the funding is not there.
How many US team athletes train with other programs? we both know its way to many.

I think many of the fast guys to enter, then walk away from the race scence get easily discoraged because of the lack of funding and prize money, also the guys I race with have some of the biggest stoke I have ever felt reguardless of the money. perhaps that is why the race side still refuses to die. I know the guys who walked away from racing most do it for the same reasons, reasons that have very little to do with the level of compatition but mostly personal. I know you don't mean to infer the riding at the USSA or FIS level is sub stantered but the compatition at USASA is a lot different. But I in no way think any one who truley has had or has the ability to compete at the USSA or FIS level thinks the races are silly. However at the USASA level many upper ranked riders have chossen not to compete due to lots of other reason. The major being the lack of point value oandcash prizes in qualifing events.

I of course wish I or other athletes could make a living at snowboard racing in any aspect reguardless of the sanctioning body, hopefully some day more riders can also.

I quess the positive out look is if enough of us keep pounding a square peg soon the hole should strech out enough to fit everyones square peg. I hate the round hole..

Hope all went well while you were at copper, I saw a few of your kids around some that i had met in Break, it sounded like they were having a great time! Did I see you quickly during the SL finals? Some one slaped me on the back right after my first run against Anton as I was riding away for my next run. I only got a quick peak and thought it may have been you. Sorry if I was in a rush if it was ya. If not sorry I missed ya sure I'll see ya next year some were. also sent me some e-mail about you gear needs for the team, we are about to thin out the Hardbooter quiver perhaps I have some stuff for some of your athletes at racer cost.

we also have lots of new stock on sale and on F2 SL66 left if you need a big SL board for any one and some BX boards also.


Again like the last response i HAVE THE MISS FORTUNE OF BEING HOPPED UP ON CODINE DUE TO A BROKEN SHOULDER please disreguard the unexpected cap lock or any major errors i am just a bit askued and unwilling to edit. Billy

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Bordy
Jack just made rererance to them [4WDs] as race boards and as you and I both know there were only 3 guys riding them, Heck there are some times still cats running soft boots at GPs.

I don't think I called a 4WD a "race" board, as they clearly aren't.

I'm just amused whenever someone comes along and achieves success on unconventional equipment that everyone "knows" shouldn't work. I was being a bit melodramatic and facetious when I said "what do I know". I don't really think that 170s are about to take over GS racing, or that they even could.

[mirror70]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
I'm just amused whenever someone comes along and achieves success on unconventional equipment that everyone "knows" shouldn't work.

Try racing a skier down a snowboard GS course, but restrict the skier to skis no longer than whatever the FIS minimum is for SL (155?). You are free to use ANY board you want.

After losing by 10 seconds (if you're exceptionally fast), please try to tell me that board makers are heading in the right direction with that whole longer and stiffer thing.




Heh, that ought to stir up some trouble.

[Frappe]

Mirror- trouble? I'd have to say I agree with you. Longer + stiffer may be all kinds of fun for freecarving in nicely groomed conditions,

but honestly, is a race course ever nicely groomed?
It's usually either ice, or rutted snow, or a fine mixture of both.

Hey, even just out riding: on a stiff 168, I could barely keep up with my uncle on 160 freeride skis. We'd go over steep, chopped up snow, and his skis would dampen while my board would, well, go paint-mixer on the legs.

If long and stiff is what works for you, go for it.
Personally, I'd take a short board that's damp and well set up for my size and style over a Super-G plank that's stiffer than my weight (~140 lbs) can flex.

I think dampening is the next step. It sounds like most raceboard manufacturers are realizing this too.

Besides, it's not the size that matters;
It's how you use it.

[Jack Michaud]

meheheheh. Mirror's had the Beckman chip implanted.

Frappe - you may be on to something, but as long as shorter boards have those silly 9-10m sidecuts, I'm not interested in them for anything other than steep ice or spending time with noobs down on the greens.

[Rusty]

You broke your sholder!!! You gotta be ****ting me!

Say Hi to Christy and give me a ring.

[BlueB]

Originally posted by mirror70
Try racing a skier down a snowboard GS course, but restrict the skier to skis no longer than whatever the FIS minimum is for SL (155?). You are free to use ANY board you want.
After losing by 10 seconds (if you're exceptionally fast), please try to tell me that board makers are heading in the right direction with that whole longer and stiffer thing.

Question is, if on GS course, why skier should not be on GS skis? Specifically 170+ cm, 21-22m scr, and VERY stiff compared to SL ski. Yes, ski technology is at the moment going towards softer longitudinal flexes and stiffer and stiffer torsional flex. Basically, the idea is to eliminate the torsional flex completely if possible - but skis are easy to skid when you want to.
Generally, any modern race ski will kill any snowboard in the gates, due to the less friction, higher manoeuvrability and more forgiving ride. So comparing the two didn't make any point...

Any ski racers around here to give us more input?

Boris

[nekdut]

Now that's something I never really understood. Why the heck do the ski racing organizations have specific rules on ski dimensions for their races? Its not like someone is going to enter SuperG with some 4m scr skiblades and win or anything. Can any ski racers provide some insight? Are there any rules like that for snowboard racers (other than the rounded tail BX rule in FIS)?

[mirror70]

Originally posted by BlueB
Question is, if on GS course, why skier should not be on GS skis?

To give the snowboarder a snowball's chance in hell. A skier running the wrong equipment on a snowboard course is still going to be hugely faster than a snowboarder running anything he wants.

Originally posted by BlueB
Generally, any modern race ski will kill any snowboard in the gates, due to the less friction, higher manoeuvrability and more forgiving ride. So comparing the two didn't make any point...

Why does a ski have any less friction than a board? If you're on edge, they're the same, and if you're racing you're on edge.

Are you sure there wasn't any point? It seems like you just said that skis are constructed with different characteristics in mind, and as a result of that they are faster. Given that both tools work on exactly the same principals, does it not seem odd that the one which is demonstrably slower is also apparently aiming for different characteristics?

Originally posted by nekdut
Why the heck do the ski racing organizations have specific rules on ski dimensions for their races? Its not like someone is going to enter SuperG with some 4m scr skiblades and win or anything

IIRC, only SL has a minimum length, and only GS has a minimum SCR. Officially, it is done for safety reasons, but realistically it is done because otherwise ski racing would have undergone a revolution overnight. From a competitive standpoint, without the rules there likely would have been as much as a 4 or 5 year stretch where being #1 would have meant simply being on the right equipment.


Fin or another mod - is it time to move this sub-thread in to a new thread since it's a couple of miles off-topic?

[Rob Smith]

Ski Specs: an opinion; the "new" skiis with torsional muscle and the radius of the course have blown the FIS (tradition) away. Racers don't have to pivot (over steer) anymore. The entire history of ski racing has included steering & carving (drifting) a turn. That has ended. I believe that to preserve some tradition & equality between racers FIS now believe they should monitor the technical advances in ski development As a student of both skinny & shaped skiis, I believe that mastering skinny skiis required more skills than a shape ski.
As to why skiis are faster, consider these thoughts;
1) Starting, no brainer, poling & skating are much faster to the first & second gate.
2) A skiers stance allows the skiis to be easily 3 ft apart through the pressure phase. Upon completing a turn ( the pressure phase) the skiier simply initiates the next turn by projecting the upper body downhill (over the skiis) and on to the "new" down hill ski, which is already "tracking" on the snow. We boarders cannot move our board (instantly) laterally 3 ft accross the hill to improve our line without going air borne and incuring impact resistance...
3) Our flexibility is also considerablty limited due to both feet fastened to one board.
4) Our balance piont is one very thin line, the ongoing balancing / tuning requires more upper body movement than skiiers; who can utilize two balance planes to tune thier trajectory.
Skiiers also have much more ability to balance their "line" from below their center of gravity.
Perhaps comparing ski racing to snow board racing is like car racing to motorcycle racing. Both are fun, but entirely different.
My challenge to board racers is to refine "pressure contol" early in the turn (above the fall line). After down unwieghting, stay flexed (short) and on the snow; apply the new turning edge while projecting the upper body downhill and quickly extend / increase pressure to the snow. This is the key to accelerating in the turn. Nothing new, it's just hard to do.

[BlueB]

Originally posted by mirror70
To give the snowboarder a snowball's chance in hell. A skier running the wrong equipment on a snowboard course is still going to be hugely faster than a snowboarder running anything he wants.

Why does a ski have any less friction than a board? If you're on edge, they're the same, and if you're racing you're on edge.

Are you sure there wasn't any point? It seems like you just said that skis are constructed with different characteristics in mind, and as a result of that they are faster. Given that both tools work on exactly the same principals, does it not seem odd that the one which is demonstrably slower is also apparently aiming for different characteristics?

Exactly what I said - SL ski is much softer than a GS ski. GS ski is still compareable to GS board in stiffness. But trend IS towards softening...
Less friction because of lesser surface - no one is strictly just on the edge, especially while racing. J.J. is getting close, thou.
Rob Smith gave few good points too.

Boris

[Bordy]

I am not sure if I would say Jasey Jay is coming close Blue if that’s who you are referring to by JJ. But he is working on product to suit his riding style and catch up to the Swiss.

I am not sure if any of you are up to speed with the board builder RD push that is going on right now but Bruce (coiler) and Sean (donek) are both using Titanal to change the characteristics of there race stock boards. I have ridden both of there test gear and were pleased by both manufactures early product and the fact that they had both solved the inherent adhesive problem that plagued titanal assembly, now they are each refining their board characteristics into product that they feel represents their Ideas for success.

Jasey Jays’ newest board (the one he was riding in GS at nationals and he and I talked in length about, although I had spend days with Burce riding and discussing titanal and was already up to speed on coilers out look) has a exposed Titanal top sheet much like the Kesslers that he is trying to base many of his characteristics off of. I ride a Kessler and spend a lot of time letting other people try it, and discussing it with athletes and coaches some of who, like Jasey are giving or want to give titanal a try.

Although Board materials are changing most race technology is not going to benefit free riders due to the some what unfriendly flex characteristics of a board soft enough to eat up the true conditions of a course are not very user friendly. Most if not all fee riders who have ridden my Kessler felt is was sub par with there current set up regardless of what it was? While almost all racers use phrases like “best board I have ever ridden and WOW”.

As some riders have mentioned shape changes are perhaps necessary based on their comparisons of current ski shapes and the need for snowboards to follow suit are comparing apples to oranges. I currently see GS shapes staying in the low to mid 180 ranges and perhaps even growing (Tyler Jewel won USSA nationals on a 188 Tomahawk build for a different rider who weighs 40-50 pounds more then Jewel himself).

Board length and shape will still be clearly defined by sanctioning course parameters necessary to provide fair competition at any and all locations by any official running any event sanctioned by the body, FIS, USSA, USASA. These course parameters dictate each riders board selection as they change and progress with the sport, we are currently in a pattern of GS courses becoming tighter and SL courses becoming loser many riders have in turn decreased the radius of there GS boards while increasing the length and radius of there SL board to follow suit. Lisa Kosglow needs a much different product then my self to handle the same race course so obviously the rider is almost the largest factor in board shape and flex but Radius are surprisingly close for every one, between 13m for very light riders and 15m for almost every one else in GS and around 8.5 to 9.5 in SL for the heaveys and as small as 7.5 for the lighter riders.

The necessity of dampening has become more important then ever because of the Duel format and the need to provide grip on a ever-changing variable surface has begun a great push by most manufactures to dampen everything from boots to bindings to try and give the athlete a smoother ride with less chatter.

The progression is developing but is being hindered by many hard core free riders who still believe the ideas behind great working free ride gear should be adapted by the rider to work in a race course, that Idea is slowly being beat into submission and dampening is becoming the priority on the R and D list for most major manufactures in order to appease all riders.

Also the free riding world has opened its eyes to the joy of shape, and many custom board builders have expanded there templates to include rider specific lengths and widths, while at one point many board builders held a unspoken code of function over inexperienced rider recommendation some builders have pressed boards way out side of there “comfort zone” to appease the “demanding and usually uneducated” consumer, while just a few short years ago they would have recommended you try some one else. Many consumers learn a firm lesson with some unpractical shapes, but once you design and ride a substandard product at least you know what you don’t want.

Length:
I have to touch on length real quickly here also. Many free riders have mentioned length as a hindrance and that boards should follow short ski patterens. I am not sure what type of background these riders have and if it involves “hypothetical ideas” about length or if the riders have ridden a large variety of board lengths from little to really, really, really big ? But in my humble snowboarding experience I have never free ridden a board that was to big but only a board I need more practice on or was limited by the terrain.

Having 2 skis, even SL skis in a 155 length with lets say a 130 effective edge gives the operator 260 cm of edge to stand on with both feet in a turn with centered balance and weighting assuming the skier is using both skis properly and for the sake of argument not over analyzing technique, but as a rider you have one half the edge due to the fact your strapped on one ski with out a extra edge for back up. Most riders I know love to have as much edge a possible to stand on and at the speeds we travel and try to maintain control at, I’ll take all the edge I can get thank you very much!


Also as far as this skier racing snowboarder gig. you guys need to meet some faster snowboarders. 10 seconds on GS vs a guy on SL skis what are you guys running a 3 minute GS course?
Perhaps you just have a huge offset in ability between your athletes maybe you should teach the skier how to ride sounds like they are just faster then your rider?
I am still faster on skiis then I am on a snowboard but only by 1 second per 40 seconds of course in GS and even less in SL if there are good pull starts and skating is not a big advantage.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by nekdut
Now that's something I never really understood. Why the heck do the ski racing organizations have specific rules on ski dimensions for their races?

Because at some point, they cease to be "skis" and become "snowblades". I guess.

Its not like someone is going to enter SuperG with some 4m scr skiblades and win or anything.

They might in slalom. I think the FIS rule was adopted after some dude showed up to a slalom race on 148s or something.

I can accept that, but the radius rule really mystifies me. The radius should be up to the racer, and any radius should be fair game. It's not like sidecut is some sort of cheater gimmick.

[Rob Smith]

The world cup ski world is big bucks & pride.
The radius controls are set to try and even the field.
Ski manufacturers can & do favour certain athletes.
The course setter is somebodies coach (or nationality) and may possibly set with some bias...
The course is also on some athletes home turf.
So much for ski racing.

Why I like snowboard racers.
NorAm at Craigleith. Minus 20 f. Blowing a gale. Quarter finals, red course to blue course - Why don't we wear our pants. (the zip offs over the speed suit) and so they did.