Technique tips and some clarification

[kmartshopper]

There's like 3 great technique/coaching threads active right now, and I think I'm getting a lot out of them. I love good analogies - and they're flying all over the place. I was looking for a little clarification of some terms - and maybe a tip or two on my own form if people are still in the mood.

'breaking at the hip' - is like leaning over to pick something up (bad)... vs. leaning from side to side at the hip like doing the bump, which is articulating (good). Is that right?

Also curious about 'driving with the ankles' or 'ankle flexion'. Does this refer to pressuring the boot cuff towards the inside of the turn, or is it exactly the opposite.... using your own muscles & ankles to drive the board up on edge - actually reducing the pressure on the inside cuff - like you have to with softies?

My problem is that I can't tighten up my carves to even ride the steeper narrower east coast blues. I can carve nice clean arcs in decent snow, but they are too large radius - using the whole trail and gathering too much speed. I'm riding a Donek FCII 171 (11.2m) 60/60 angles. I'm 6'4" w/36" inseam.

So besides looking like a penguin trying to fly, does anything jump out?

Much Thanks.

[D-Sub]

Pics (SMALL!) look like good technique, but based on those three pics (definitely not enough info for this to be definitive) it looks to me that you, like a lot of people, are simply along for the ride in your carves. This seems to be common...put the board on edge and just follow. I'm no expert, and only a moderate level carver, and have definitely used this tactic before (and am not saying anything is necessarily wrong with it) but if you want to get into more advanced carving on steeper trails or variable terrain, you have to be more aggressive, take control instead of just letting it happen.

try to find some vids of advanced carvers and notice that their turns are pretty dynamic (har har! (inside joke on me)) with up/down movement, and aggressive turn initiation. Rarely do they just tilt the board and go along for the ride.

I think you look like you've already developed good habits as far as body positioning goes, now you just need to step it up a bit.

Since you know how you ride, does that sound accurate?

[jimcheen]

If you'd like to get together for some coaching sessions, let me know- I can travel to Southern VT. for coaching, even on a day-basis.
I can also guarantee exhilarating results.

Williamblake,
I would very much like to take you up on your offer. I'll email you.
JC

[two_ravens]

So when "feeding the board through the turn" is the rider pushing the board forward, or is the board accelerating? I'm a beginning carver, but in a former life was a fairly decent recreational skier, and found that one could engage the ski in a carve, then interrupt the carve and harvest a rebound from it in a way that produced acceleration in the skis. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that ski racers use something like this routinely. Wondering if that is an element of what is happening with the board for you carve masters?

[Fastskiguy]

Originally Posted by D-Sub

This seems to be common...put the board on edge and just follow.

"Park and ride" if you will....

I just wanna second the idea that extension and flexion is one difference between good and great. Because that toeside is really good already.

[kmartshopper]

Since you know how you ride, does that sound accurate?

I confess... that sounds fairly accurate. I'd like to blame some of that on my rear foot... My boots (SB324) are already at the farthest lean setting, and I have some additional rear heel lift (snowpro bindings w/shims). Yet even in that upright pose, I'm putting good pressure on the rear boot cuff - and I really have to mash it to get down low and/or to shift my weight forward more. This may be normal though, and I am just not used to the forces involved.

It sounds like a consensus opinion though. I'll try to focus more on feeding the board through the turn, it will cause me to be more dynamically engaged.

I know those pics were small, so here's another clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou9XQjSj1ms

Willywit posted that in another thread. Sure looks fun.

WB, thanks for the great offer. I just bought TD2 bindings (for fun... not to fix my riding) Let me play with them a little and wait for a little snow to cover the hardpack. I have a Sugarbush pass, but would certainly travel south if we could work something out. I will pm you.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Jim Callen]

Originally Posted by kmartshopper

So besides looking like a penguin trying to fly, does anything jump out?

Much Thanks.

As to the penguin aspect, think about gorilla arms while riding. It sounds comical, I know, but if you think about it, keeping your arms out for balance doesn't accomplish much. By keeping your arms down and driing towards the snow, if your balance does get messed up, you can bring them up for better balance. If they are already up in the air they have nowhere to go to help. My old coach was very big on gorilla arms.

[carvedog]

Originally Posted by williamblake

One of BOL's own illustrates heelside"BATH" (Breaking At The Hip)
very nicely with his avatar :


Take this same picture, rotate it 90o counterclockwise, and he's leaning down to pick up a shiny new quarter.
In that case, his legs would be perpendicular to the surface, bad form on a snowboard.
(You know the look- the way most first-timers stand when they begin to slid down an incline for the first time)

In the case of the photo, his legs are parallel to the surface, which affords
GREAT line-recovery to get earlier on the heelside in ruts.

Funny part: In each case, he's executing the same postural movement, "BATH".
it's his attitude (in relation to the surface) that dictates whether it's good or bad form...or, how we vary the photo's attitude.

BATH would not be good on toeside.

[dshack]

Isn't this guy breaking at the hip on a toeside? Maybe I misunderstand the concept.

[carvedog]

Originally Posted by dshack

Isn't this guy breaking at the hip on a toeside? Maybe I misunderstand the concept.

He is riding failrly countered and compressed. Definitely not breaking at the waist or hip and reaching for the snow. Which is what I was thinking about.

His left hip is very open and extended. His right hip is closing and flexed. Spinal flexion and extension also very much involved with the angle of flex being up and away from the snow.

[David Glynn]

In the awesome picture (of I believe Jaysey Jay) the riders next move will be to drive his hips forward projecting his center of mass into the turn extending and accelerating as he does, unleashing the boards energy as it crosses under with a retraction move followed by an extension and edge change with little weight/ pressure on the board then sinking onto a fully pressured heelside edge in a similar crouched position. It's this cross under aggressive pumping technique that is necessary to tighten up your turns when the runs narrow and steepen. Driving the hips forward is an acceleration move. The more you put into it the faster you will go. If less acceleration is desired drive the hip with less effort.
I agree with D-sub put some energy into your riding and you will be well rerwarded.
Great advice from William Blake!
It's important to remember that all of our joints work together. There is a relationship to each joints movements to the others if we are to remain stacked over our boards. If the ankle moves so does the knee and the hip. If you bend at the hip without the appropriate corresponding flex of the knee and ankle you will be breaking at the hip. If you flex in the knee without the appropriate corresponding flex in the ankle and hip you will be in the back seat etc. Just tipping the board up on edge and going along for the ride is ok but it is very limiting in turn shape and speed control.

[kmartshopper]

Hey, thanks for all the tips. Everything sounds like it goes together - arms, knees, waiste, really getting into it more. I'm itching to get out and put it to the test.

BTW, that racing pic is really bad-a$$. Racing pics (and EC pics) don't usually do it for me... but he's got that east coast banging style going. Good juxtaposition against my pics to show the point.

[two_ravens]

Originally Posted by williamblake

Yep- what jumps out is that I want to hear how you implemented this technique, and how it worked for you.

I know that comment was directed toward kmartshopper, but last night - after 8 long days at work, reading all the good info here on BOL and visualizing being on my board - I got home in time to make a few quick runs before close of night skiing. Focused primarily on feeding the board through the turn. Wow! A completely different sensation! Did many nice little heelside carves (had not felt a heelside carve previously.) What a great drug!!! Didn't quite get it toeside last night, but I'm heading out in a bit to try to put that to work on both edges...

Thanks WB, awesome advice!

[two_ravens]

OK, I've got it in my head - I'll be putting all that into action in less than an hour!

Thanks!

p.s. I didn't even THINK about reading that second part, about what will happen...eventually...toeside...

[D.T.]

Originally Posted by williamblake

In the likely event that your desk chair has wheels practice moving it from side to side using your hips, as opposed to your waist.

WB - I focused on the described motion this weekend. All I can say is DAMN!!! The board was hooking up like crazy and railing some wicked turns! Normally on steeper pitches, I carve big wide turns to control my speed; this weekend I was riding fall-line, making tight, powerful turns, keeping my speed nicely in check, yet able to accelerate at will.

Thanks for the tips, they are greatly appreciated

[Rob Stevens]

"Going along for the ride" is partially illustrated in the leading edge of your hip as it seems to get left behind as you exit the fall line.

You can use the muscles of your core to keep your hips in line with the average direction both your toes are pointing.

This is really rotational alignment, rather than falling behind into counter rotation, like it looks from your pictures (Thanks for providing pictures and not making us guess).

That can keep your arc from becoming more open than you planned. Closing the arc a bit more? If you put a bit of core / hip rotation into at the apex, resulting in a greater bend in the front knee, while keeping the front ankle firm, you'll generate edge angle and the arc will tighten.

Try this in combination with the other solid advice in this thread.

[JJFluff]

I too initiate at the hip. But I ride with much less BATH. -(I can't stand BATH) The rotational alignment that Rob speaks of is exactly the way I feel it needs to be done. I feel that keeping the body more inline linearly allows me to be in a much more athletic position to make small changes quickly. Try recovering from a lost edge with your posterior sliding on the snow, and your upper body directly above it.

[Rob Stevens]

CASI works from the top down in some cases. If we're trying to improve problematic counter rotation, we might encourage some rotation.

The hip rotation, though, is very slight here. Maybe a couple of degrees. Enough to feel the front thigh moving forward, bending the knee and pressuring the ankle and edge.

We can get into foot steering later on if it were an actual lesson, rather than the frozen moment feedback we're giving here, but as long as I see a guy letting his upper body get left behind like that, I'll try to improve it with an opposing force. My outlook is that if I went right to a "press the gas", obtuse extension of the front foot, combined with knee flexion to create more edge, without some exaggeration in forward hip positioning, he could get left behind even more and be way out of position when the edge does hook up.

I am trying to use a passive way to pressure the deck, More agressive techniques can be used later.

I really see what you're saying, though. Many kinds of rotation are a crutch, but they do have their place in snowboarding.

[JJFluff]

Originally Posted by williamblake

I have tried it, hundreds of times, frankly, and for most of them, it served me and many worldcup racers exceptionally well.
If you ride passively, and just set your weight over your edge and let your sidecut do the work, your points are well-taken.
If you actually work your board through the turn with drive, it's a different ballgame altogether.

I am driving the board on both toe and heel side turns. I do not ride passively, but with good body mechanics it looks like I am. Because I am not contorting my body in three different directions. I wish I could explain it in words better, but I can't. I understand that on the race course, it is a different world, but I am not trying to get down the mountain the fastest, nor and I being told where to turn. If your not practicing racing on every run, why ride like your on course? Unless thats what you like. Than more power to you. I just find that when riding with the style that has me bent at the waist to move my COM closer to the board, although edge hold is increased, it greatly restricts my ability to be mobile, and loads the board more than it needs to be. With the more linear body positioning, I can easily change pressure applied to the deck to when and where it is needed.

[Rob Stevens]

I say what I do because it has worked for the people I've sessioned. They seem to be pretty stoked and leave riding better, but this is not the point.
Am I disadvantaging them?
I'm sure I ride as I teach and I ride as well as I can hope to, given the amount of time I get nowadays.
I think the only thing left is to UNDERSTAND and EXPLAIN better. If I want to hold myself out as someone who knows, I'd better know.
Clearly, I think I know what's going on, but I don't. This is a frightening realisation for me, as you can't get a much higher certification than I have.
I need a few days with you, WB. I need to hear about your philosophies and methodologies.
Please PM me, as I'd like to get this together, if you have any interest in coming out this way.
We'll make it worth your while.
Oh yeah... I would like to take you Noboarding, so if you're in, begin your mental preparations now.

[jimcheen]

WB
Thursday morning looks good. How about it?
JC

[kmartshopper]

Well I got a chance to try some of these great tips and I think it's helped. First off... my quads got destroyed! I think that's a good sign While I'm not dragging my hips yet, I'm doing well on trails that I used to have to skid/slow after a couple turns. I think my flippers are still out though... I can only focus on so many things at once.

Interesting how addressing one problem can uncover another. I think part of my lazy posture was subconscious self-defense from losing my toeside edge. I hold heelsides as hard as my form will allow me to initiate. On toesides as the forces increase, sometimes I lose it at full tilt. The release-bite-release-repeat chatter feels like a jackhammer on my rear heel (pump-bump). So that got me focusing on why that was happening too - I think I'm edging the board more up front than in back (twisting). Focusing on balancing that seems to have helped as well.

Originally Posted by Rob Stevens

This is really rotational alignment, rather than falling behind into counter rotation, like it looks from your pictures (Thanks for providing pictures and not making us guess).

This last batch of discussion has me a little confused. I think the concept is the same - trying to get the body aligned (or at least keeping up with the turn), and introducing more pressure and angle to the edge to turn harder. It's the subtleties (to me) that I miss. I can relate to how tweaking the hip into the turn might have this additional pressuring effect - which is why I'm a little lost on the subtlety that WB disagrees with. WB, are you saying that you're hips should stay more or less in line with your toes, and everything should be done by driving knees and hips?

[Bobby Buggs]

Jim, I thought Me, Rob Case and the Carvefather got you some exhilarating results at the SES last year

Seriously give me a call when yu get a second

[Rob Stevens]

At the very least, if you can stay lined up with the average angle between your feet (55 and 50 = 53 sort of thing), you'll have the alignment sorted out.
This position, even at the mid-point of the turn should be almost identical to a normal still stance on flat ground, or straight running.
From there WB has got me thinking that you're ready to start feeding edge from your ankles and knees. Be careful to not feed the hip into it too much right off the start or you'll get a bit more than you bargained for.
If this is done equally on both feet, you should carve from the drivers seat.
I'm with you on the fear thing. It can get you into a position thats prepared for falling, rather than prepared for ripping.

[BadBrad]

Rob, your comment about feeding the edge equally with both me got me thinking. I think I tend to drive heelsides with my back knee and toesides with my front shin. Perhaps this comes from learning carving mostly on asym boards, I don't know. Next time out I'll think more about driving both feet equally.

[Rob Stevens]

You should feel more stable edging and pressuring with both feet equally, but as you progress, you might want to think about this...

To get any movement coming from your base of support (board / feet) just think about a feeling from your feet, rather than what your knees are doing. As you enter the turn, strive for a feeling of increasing pressure on your front foot, progressing through both feet, to complete on the back foot. Of course this applies to toe and heel turns. As long as your knees aren't being held static (unmoving... keep them loose), they should do what is required by the act of pressuring your feet properly. Don't try to position them anywhere for now, just see what they want to do as a result of what foot you're working.

At first, you will likely do it by recentering your core (torso)over the front, to the middle and then back. This works, but is not optimal.
If you can, attempt this fore(at the start) and aft (to complete) pressure shift by advancing the board underneath you. Slide it forward with force applied by your core muscle groups, so the board is doing the forward and back movement, rather than your upper body.
Practice in a straight run, to sense the muscle groups you'll be using and then move it into a turn.

I'm very interested to hear how this works out for you and if you do get the pics, that would kill.

[BlueB]

Originally Posted by Rob Stevens

I need a few days with you, WB. I need to hear about your philosophies and methodologies.
Please PM me, as I'd like to get this together, if you have any interest in coming out this way.
We'll make it worth your while.
Oh yeah... I would like to take you Noboarding, so if you're in, begin your mental preparations now.

Rob, what's the chanses of potential session with WB becoming public for CASI members?
I'll bring your old love Kr172, for you to ride Hell, you can even take me Noboarding

Boris

[Rob Stevens]

I'm thinking about the "Supercourse" at Sunshine Village in mid-May.
We do allow members to come and ride in clinics, without being on a formal course for a level, so Blue, you're in.
Of course, you're only in if it's on, but if WB has the time and I can get this approved by my board and TC, I think we'll be into one of the best sessions yet.
I would like to do something separately for our Technical Committee, so if you have a week, we could satisfy everyone.
Let's talk about your day rate offline, WB.

[Rob Stevens]

[quote]

Originally Posted by BlueB

I'll bring your old love Kr172, for you to ride Hell, you can even take me Noboarding

Oh yeah? Nice one. I loved that board and you will **** when you do your first bindingless turns.

[BlueB]

Sweet!
I'm in if it didn't clash with one of the major Laser reggattas (my summer fix). Schedule is not out yet.