MADD's are here........

[kamran]

ts just a question, and we dont have mountains in belgium as you already know

what about the Ardennen (spelling?)

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Gecko
Donek especially and Coiler are what one might call production customs...i.e. they either make enough or have it down to a system that sales prices are almost as low as mass produced boards (Burton K2) actual production costs are likely double that of the big boys but they don't makes boards to get rich. Folks like Virus, Madd etc. have higher costs either do to location, lack of production facilities or maybe even the cost of the materials that they use (especially in small runs)

Don't forget that with Donek, Coiler, Prior, etc there is no middle-man. Burton probably charged a dealer $250, maybe $300 for an FP. With Madd, Madd is actually the middle man since the boards are made in Italy, and you're also paying for trips there to oversee production and for shipping and customs, etc, in addition to the unobtanium materials and x-wing cf topsheet.

[Gecko]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
Don't forget that with Donek, Coiler, Prior, etc there is no middle-man. Burton probably charged a dealer $250, maybe $300 for an FP. With Madd, Madd is actually the middle man since the boards are made in Italy, and you're also paying for trips there to oversee production and for shipping and customs, etc, in addition to the unobtanium materials and x-wing cf topsheet.

My experience with Snowboard manufacture was that the materials and their prep is the costliest and most time consuming part of the whole process. With both presses running we could barely keep up with layup before the boards were done with the squishing and ready to cool 30-40 boards on a pressing day was easy...it usually took a lot longer to get everything else ready to press (hence Bruce's runs). We had shelves with each board complete but for the glue...after 3 weeks or so we'd build up enough to warrent a Press Day (it's amazing home much of this info is coming back to me). With MADD add in all the materials that have to be shipped to europe (not cheap at all) plus whatever R&D the factory needs to do, just because you tell them what to do doesn't mean that they do it that way or that it can be done the way you planned (Murphy). Small manufactureers make boards because they are driven to produce a particular product not because they want to get rich.

[skywalker]

How can one compare Madds to Virus, Donek, etc.?
Those guys are making custom boards that are perfectly adjusted to the rider. As far as I see the Madds are real stock boards with the same specs for each and every board available in only 2 sizes. Maybe superior snowboards are mainly made of myth, hype and coolness, not only of unobtainium

[nils]

Do the materials really go from usa to italy for production...? Sounds like customs and shipping prices would not make it possible to my opinion...
As for small manufacturers ability to produce volumes, just the pressing time itself can divide your productivity by 10... Swellpanik ( famous swallowtail maker) presses each board for 24 hours at 40°C, Most euro custom manufacturers press 12 hours at 50°, and the big boys like Salomon or Dynastar press 20-30 mins at 90°...A factory that can output 100+ boards a day needs at least 10 workforce, when a factory making 10 can work with 2-3 people if they have enough presses...

As for middle man, you can basically count the margin to be between 1.6-1.8 so its easy to imagine how much a board costs to make when you divide the retail price by the middle man margin, knowing that the maker has also the same kind of margins in that case at least...

example: salomon XYZ model retail price 500 euros
middle man buys it at 277 euros
to survive, production costs have to be below 150 euros, and knowing those boards are now produced in romania at a cost that is closer to 90 euros the real salomon margin is closer to 3.

What is the rule nowadays it to have the margin of the main companies increasing enormously, and the quality of the boards decreasing, because you cannot produce the same board at 90 euros than at 150 or 200. Its not just about mass quantities and lower labor costs, but also on materials and quality of the materials ( hence their cost..)

When I see makers saving 2 euros on a core of a new line, and the price NOT decreasing by at leat 7 euros on the new line's retail price, I know that the one who is suffuring is the buyer, that pays the same for less quality...

I know a brand that went last year to china for production: has the retail price changed? No, but in the meantime the production cost had decrease by 70% !
Incredible no?

I'm dreaming for example of a small database with all boards, using the marketing name of the materials, and the real name of the same material in order to compare what is comparable...

Pretending XZAQS base the best available when it costs 20% the price of the best IMS 4000 is marketing lie!

Knowing what you ride is the first step toward quality, and fighting against man made marketing, instead of the product itself doing its own marketing...

Knowledge is the first step to good consumption!

As for madds, I know the sum of hassle it has to be to find a new factory, make new molds and overseas!!
etc and i can only say: congrats !

Nils

[skategoat]

Did someone use the words "production" and "Coiler" in the same sentence? I would say that Bruce's boards are as custom and hand-made as you can get. In my opinion, at his current prices, they are an unbelievable bargain.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by skategoat
Did someone use the words "production" and "Coiler" in the same sentence? I would say that Bruce's boards are as custom and hand-made as you can get. In my opinion, at his current prices, they are an unbelievable bargain.

I would have to agree with skategoat.

Actually.... with all the discussion and hype about Madds, I don't recall ever seeing them compared directly against Coilers. This season my quiver will include a Madd and two Coilers and I look forward to finding out which one is my favorite board!

[boogieman]

I think there are enough explanations in this tread so that everybody can make his own opinion on why does everybody rave about Madds, and I personally don’t think that they are that good just because they have better materials in them because they do come from Italy so import taxes make a lot of difference on the price and also shaggy is the middle man since he’s not making them so I really doubt they have better material in there boards as other manufacturers like Donek, coiler, Kessler, Oxess, prior.... and its still a big production run compared to ppl who make one board at the time adjusted to the specifications of the guy who’s gonna ride them so .....?



I just think that expensive, different and rare make a good combo to make people rave about your product


now you can all hit me because I said something that sounds bad about your all so precious Madd boards lol, I don’t care I’m sure I’m very close to reality

[Neil Gendzwill]

Boogieman, if you want to take the time rather than just shooting from the hip you can read the Madd review over at www.hardbooter.com. The author there is not affiliated with Madd to the best of my knowledge and has no reason to be biased one way or the other.

[Erik J]

Hey Boogieman, have you ever ridden a Madd? Also, what boards do you have experience with and in what type of terrain/conditions? Not trying to start anything - just curious.

[CarvCanada]

Yeah you can't really say that until you try it out, and spend at least a few days learning the style that the board requires. One day I really want to go down to Stratton to try one of those babies, 158 sounds like my kind of ride!

[Speedzilla]

Originally posted by Kent
Boogie -

This was a "the Madd's are here...." thread.

In a few weeks, we can have a "Was it worth it" thread and I'd be happy to give you my unbiased opinion coupled with some video (providing I find a cameraman)

I can shoot video if you have the camera.

[John Gilmour]

I really haven't had much to do with this run- other than give Mike a list of orders from the last time we tired to do a pre-sell run.

Madd boards are production boards. Actually you are paying for a rerun of production boards spec'ed to match boards that first came out in the Early 1990's.

The only time there were Madd Customs.... it could be said...was when we changed perameters of the topsheet Carbon Fiber Wing tip lengths , flex patterns and perhaps sidecuts to our personal liking.

We are merely middlemen between the laminator and sometimes we give input to things we would like changed- or in my case I might make a suggestion to change something about the board to increase durability. Things I personally wanted to change over the First run of boards were

1. The outer diameter of the inserts
2. The way the tail was assembled
3. The sidecut on the 170
4. The length of the cf wing on the 158
5. The base material (from P-tex 1000 to the ultra hard base we used)
6. The type of rubber used in the nose (the originals used ....gasp... closed cell foam ruber)
7. Going from single density inserts to double density inserts
8. Adding more inserts for increased stance width. (At the time everyone was riding ridiculously narrow stances due to the core profiles that dictated that- which were originally derived from ski profiles)
9. Firmer noses so that more weight could be put forward for more aggressive nose loading for tackling steeps. (this was done by lengthing the cf wing).
10. Aluminum tail block to prevent delams. From jamming the tail into the snow.


I haven't had any input over this run of boards due to me being incapacitated- I have yet to see one of the new Madds. I won't be able to test them this year. First time on snow for me will be July or August in New Zealand.

I regards to what is better...depends on what terrain you ride and what the snow is like. In conditions like softer snow and wide open Western style terrain I would rather ride a Donek. On a super firm race course I'd probably like a custom Coiler. If you have size 30 mondopoint boots you certainly don't want a Madd and should go for a wide DONEK OR COILER OR PRIOR . If you have size 25 mondo point boots you should likely be trying a virus or other thin decks. If you weigh over 270 lbs...... please don't buy our boards! Buy a Coiler, Prior or Donek custom built to your weight or perhaps a Pogo production deck! And if you weigh under 130 lbs again buy a custom deck.

I am forunate enough to personally know Bruce, Sean, Fin, Jeff, and Chris....and I can say this for all of us. We all want you to ride the board that makes you ride the best you can- even if it means not buying the product we individually make.

For those in the north East riding Narrow trails on icy crowded weekend days if you weigh about 155-195lbs and have size 26.0- 28.5 mondo pont boots sure I would like to see you on a Madd 158....but if you ride better on a Prior with lots of taper...I would rather see you on that.

By making boards that make you guys DOMINATE the slopes- all of us manufacturers wish you a happy holiday season. So don't worry about what is better...try them all- then decide for yourself.

I rode a 158 cm Madd through a speed trap in aspen at about 65mph with Vin Q. doing about 60 in soft boots. So I borrowed Sean Martins donek 185? cm deck- and I started Way way way up above where the speed trap started.....by the time I went through the trap It sounded from the air rush that I was doing over 80mph.

So if I wasn't nervous about trying a variety of different boards for different riding conditions- you shouldn't be either. As far as I am concerned there is Zero rivalry between the brand owners- just open handed support for the sport of Alpine carving.

the only carving I'm doing this season is on Thanksgiving..sniff- but at least it's prime rib.

[jeremiah]

I notice that someone mentioned that these boards will be at Stratton sometime this season. Will it be an ongoing thing, or a one-time demo day. My pass is ready to go, my house is opening up tomorrow, so now all I need is some snow.

[Rob-CanCarve]

Hey John:

You posting is one of the best I have read on this board over the years.

Thank you for putting the love of the sport and the presence of the positive vibe found in all us into words.

This is the attitude that this sport needs to grow and mature - no one needs to dominate the market (we are lucky we have the manufacturers we have and welcome more) and I don't think anyone needs to be the absolute best on any hill - just enjoy the sport for how it makes us feel and the pleasure we get doing it. The same in needed in slalom skateboarding as well.

Not to get too philosophical (sp?) - just wanted to thank you for sheading the real light about this small community we all live in.

All the best,

Rob

[Mike T]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
If you have size 25 mondo point boots you should likely be trying a virus or other thin decks.

I too enjoyed reading your post John!

I thought I'd point out that I've got 25 MP boots, and consider 18 cm to be my ideal (alpine board) waist width. On a 15 m radius board, I'm right at the edges w/ back foot at 55 degrees, and on a 10 m radius board, right at the edges at 50 degrees. Those numbers seem to be the sweet spot in my personal comfort range.

Very much looking forward to my Madd 170 - and also my Coilers that will hopefully arrive soon after the Madd arrives.

[LeeW]

don't be madd. be glad!

[Kirk]

Discussed before, I know. I just saw on the updated Carver's Almanac that the Madd 170 radius is 11.5 m - I thought they were like 10.5 m or thereabouts (according to JG) - Are the new ones different?

Shaggy? John Gilmour?

[John Gilmour]

The original 170 was about 11.5 or 11.2 I think the sifecut behaves more like a 10.5M
A 25 mondo point can work- if your boot has clearence. I rode 26.5 mondos witht eh madds and felt that a 18.5- 19 would have been more appropriate. given the flare on tighter sidecuts is greater- and on larger side cuts the board does not widen under foot as quickly.

hey if it works for you......it's right.

JG

[Mike T]

Thanks JG - my 25's worked quite well on a Donek 210, 17 sidecut, 18 waist - so I think I will be AOK!

[LeeW]

Hmm. I wear 28.5 mondo point. however as i was modifying my burton bindings to fit with UPZ boots, i noticed the sole's quite smaller than the burton version. would UPZ be an exception ?

[bobdea]

the ledges are just closer to the bottom of the boot
so I would guess it would be like losing a half size

[Jack Michaud]

re: JG's post

That was certainly the vibe I got at the ECES. Too bad you were conspicuously absent, John. Next time. Heal up right, okay?
-Jack

[ALPINE]

For those wondering what the hype is on MADD the answer is simple once you ride it on eastern ice I seriously doubt you will find a more respondsive board. I have a 161 SL LE that I rode for almost 8 years ! I got it used and it still had plenty of life left.
I have owned in excess of 15 boards and none of them rode as clean, and responsive as the MADD. I currently ride Prior 165 and 175 WC which I like the best of what is available til now!
John's comments are right on, soft snow is not Madd's world, it rides well but so do others. Maybe the bx will fill this void for MADD. but if you want the ice authority Madd is it hands down. I have had the pleasure of riding many differant boards in the 12 years I have been carving and I get goose bumps just thinking about the ruts I will leave in ice when I can get back on a Madd.
170 is the perfect length for all around riding with bomber's on them ....................heaven.

YOU CARVE.......YOU CARVE .........YOU CARVE .............
EVEN IF IT IS ICY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CarvCanada]

When you guys say ice are you reffering to actual ice like boiler plate that is not even white, or do you mean really hardpacked granular powder? I've never ridden on real ice except for maybe, a couple of Saturdays in the early season.

[Derf]

Originally posted by CarvCanada
When you guys say ice are you reffering to actual ice like boiler plate that is not even white, or do you mean really hardpacked granular powder? I've never ridden on real ice except for maybe, a couple of Saturdays in the early season.

Interesting question, I'm also looking forward to the answer. For me, there's two types of ice:
1) Very, very, very hard packed man made granular, white colour, hard like ice, easy to loose an edge like ice.
2) What we call boiler plate, yellowish in colour sometimes, would be easier to go down with skates, unable to even set an edge on it.

BTW, ice is what I have the most problems with. I'm slowly starting to get comfortable on steeps.

[ALPINE]

As with most things in life it's all relative, the kind we get in NH is mostly very, very veryveryveryvery hard packed snowmaking snow / ice that is skier packed or scrubbed off, and looks blue like a glacier. ski poles bounce off unless they are carbide tipped.
Most all eastern ski areas experiance it on the most heavily traveled trails. Then there is the stuff that happens after a freezing rain on top of the previous described conditions and those days are meant for the pub.!!
The very packed snow that is white but very hard makes the best carving since you actually do not make serious ruts that can hang up you toes or most often heel out an edge on. and not so soft you bury your nose. I often call it styrofoam snow since your edge holds like velcro with a razor sharp board, properly set up, and riden properly.
probablly the most important point after sharpening is weighting of the edge thru the turn such that you are fluid and follow the direction of the carve, no weight shift front to back mid carve.
the old Burton PJ 's rode that way in order to keep the edge on the snow.
Now back to the relative part, ........after spending 15 years out west.......way out in fact Pacific NW most native Cascade or Rocky Mtn skiers really don't know ice. An experiance I had in Washington after a Chinook rain the 15 ft of snow we had on the ground had a 3 inch crust that was very firm. None of the locals wanted to ski / tele on a clear sunny day cause it was ICY !!!
The three of us from the east ( VT ) went out and danced on it all day and were in heaven !!

my motto is if its white under neath you can't ask for more everything else is a gift !!


You carve, you carve, you carve, you carve, you carve, you carve,
even if it's icy .....................no slide !!!!!!!!!!!

[nekdut]

So lets see some pictures of the topsheet.