help a "C"-shaper stand up!

[tpalka]

Hello,

I've been repeatedly told that my main bad habit of the moment is hunching over my board as I'm making the turns. It's less of an issue if I'm just doing cross-unders, but it's somewhat of an issue on the toe-side and definitely a problem on the heel-side.

I've been trying to stand tall, to push my chest out, to keep my eyes looking high up in the direction of where I'm going to make the turn, but somehow I still end up bent at the waist.

Riding with a bamboo pole held horizontal at chest level helped some, but without the pole I started slouching again...

Does anyone have ideas on things to keep in mind that could help me overcome this habit? Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!



tom.

[silversurf]

A long time ago, when I used to race gates I was given advice from some ski racers that stuck with me to avoid that same issue. I crounched over way too much when I was pulling gates, which slowed me down because I was basically going around the gate not through it. This same habit followed me in to the regular slopes as well.

They suggested I imagine I was driving a car with my hands at the 10 & 2 o'clock positions, keeping my arms bent but holding them chest high thus looking like you're going to catch a basketball. This effectively did the same thing as the bamboo pole did (which I also tried). Of course you can still crouch while doing this, but keeping your elbows bent and arms out in front of you and "driving" your way through the turns is a good way to help keep your back straight. This isn't the only way to train yourself, but worked well for me.

Two things that I've seen cause slouching in my riding are "caveman" stance (arms/hands at sides) and "airplaning" where you extend your arms too far out to the sides while turning. Both of these can cause you to crouch over. "Airplaning" was caused by my subconscious desire to touch the snow for balance when turning. I found that I would hunch over on every turn to do this and thus crouched down the hill at every turn. Once I stopped trying to touch the snow all the time (which actually does more than make you crouch it can cause you to transfer weight inappropriately) I noticed I didn't crouch as much unless I wanted to (bank turns, etc).

It took some self discipline to get there, but I spent almost a whole season just working on this and other issues by sticking to intermediate slopes and really focusing my mind on practicing. I also did some video training where I had someone take their video camera and we recorded several runs, then I'd watch it at the bottom each time and try to change one thing about my stance to correct something. That worked really well.

This of course is just my experience, your mileage may vary, hope that helps,

-colin

[Kent]

Judging from your avatar, it appears to stem from your skateboarding.....

Bending this way (we call it "taco" on the team) effects your balance, edge, steering and rotary. Yep...it pretty much screws everything up! I'd venture a guess that you're counter-rotating your turns.

It sounds elementary, but I'd start back at square one on the bunny hill with Jack's "Norm". Make LARGE turns with long traverse....and then slowly start adding movement.

If you're a ripper, it's just a matter of un-learning a bad habit and providing more ankle/knee angulation....

Hope that helps.
K

[tpalka]

Thank you -- very helpful suggestions. This is in fact my first season, so I'm still at the basics stage -- so far I probably logged a total of 20 days on a snowboard, 6 of which were at the end of the last season.

I can definitely see the reaching for snow and the general posture issues -- I'll try the "driving" technique, and concentrate on fixing this habit before trying anything else.

Attaching a few snapshots that I found on a video that my girlfriend shot earlier this season.. (http://www.slackerdom.com/2004/12_fi...ing/index.html).

Thanks again,


tom.

[philfell]

Try thinking about using your lower body to start and drive your turns. When I see people breaking at the waist like you, it is usually from them not using their knees and hips in their transitions, but throw their shoulders into the next turn. Hope this helps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think the reaching for the snow bit is killing you, especially in that larger picture. People tend to do that either because it's fun, or they think it helps them get lower, or they feel off-balance... silversurf gave you the car-driving image but it's more common to imagine carrying a tray of beer. Don't spill the beer!

[silversurf]

Yes carrying beer is much more fun to imagine than driving a car (don't do them together tho :-)

[Gtanner]

A classic never-fail technique is to grab that bamboo stick again and this time hold it down in front of you (along the neutral plane across your knees where your toes are pointing) with your arms just hanging down. Then go for a run. The goal will be to keep the pole parrallel to the snow at all times (the classic Fawcett T technique). This will force you to stay upright and use your knees to drive into the turns and not your torso since your torso will always be upright and you won't be hunched over.

The great (or not-so-great) thing about bamboo is that it hits back, so if you happen to drop a shoulder into a turn, the bamboo will hit the snow and pull your arm to one side. This will force you to try harder to keep that pole parallel. I know that this is a tough way to learn, but it stopped me from inclining (dropping that inside shoulder) on my toesides.


Good luck,
Gord

[peterk]

The one thing I remember for a lesson I had last year was actually to reach away from the snow and instead reach for the edge of your board that's in the air.

Not that I'd want to post pictures of my style, I only started last year and have a LOT to learn...

[tpalka]

Thanks again -- all tips much appreciated. I tried the reaching for the upper board edge exercise, but since I'm still bending at the waist that wasn't really helping. Makes perfect sense as the next thing to practice, though.

As for the tray, that's what I'll hold, full of G&T's

Thanks!


tom.

[peterk]

The tray was the definitely one of the basic lessons my sister-in-law taught me when I was first learning on a freeride board (my brother, his wife and both of his kids are now certified instructors... go figger). I think that's probably the best of the best if you want to get back to basics to break a bad habit.

But I'll leave the G&T for you, when we rode from Lander WYO down through Breck and Salida a couple of years back it was New Belgium all the way so that's what my tray gets loaded with :-). Loved the water park in dowtown Salida (plus Absolute Bikes... great shop for "that other season").

[jjfarbs]

my experience with the same problem and the pro tip that seemed to be most effective is when you feel yourself reaching for the snow think hips and suck your hips back into position and try to maintain the relative hip position through as many transitions as possible

[Vahur]

Just an guess, but could one part of problem be too stiff boots? If I look at photos, then I see, that you bend your knees, but shins are in vertical position. This leads to moving butt backward and bending upper body forward in order to avoid weight shfiting too back.
But if boots are not too stiff, then I think that avoiding hips backward movement and moving knees forward instead during turn could help in maintaining upright position.
Something like in this picture:
http://bomber.smugmug.com/gallery/136027/6/4966110
( I tried to find better picture, but most of pictures are taken from front and feet position is not very visible...)

[ncermak]

on the toe side turn, reach for the heelside of your board with your leading hand. on heelside reach for the toeside edge with your trailing hand...

[mirror70]

In addition to what others have said about keeping your shoulders parallel to the slope and reaching for the airborne edge (for a regular rider: left hand to left foot on toe side, right hand to left foot on heelside), you may want to try initiating your turns differently. Go to a simple green slope and, riding with a straight back, try initiating your toeside turns by driving your knees in to the snow. On the heelside, try and roll your heels in to it.

[Baka Dasai]

Your avatar perfectly illustrates your problem

A common theme to the advice so far is to do something with your hands - hold a pole, hold an imaginary tray, reach for the opposite edge etc.

In the spirit of Jack's "aim to overshoot the target in order to hit it", I'd combine all this advice into the following exaggeration - try to grab your edge with your outside hand while pointing your inside hand up to the sky.

Here's an example:

[philfell]

everyone should try to ride like Greenwood.

[tpalka]

Excellent -- again, thank you very much for all the replies and suggestions -- I'll try them out this weekend and post more afterwards.

A related question -- I think that the main reason I'm trying to touch the snow is related to that feeling of fun and getting down -- I guess I'm rushing that, since it'd come automatically with good technique. Looking at other pictures from SES'04 I think that these pictures illustrate what I am trying to [unconsciously?] emulate -- and are those riders displaying good technique or perhaps just effective and alternative technique? Am I looking at the right elements when looking at the pictures?

http://bomber.smugmug.com/gallery/136027/6/4966142

Touching the snow, but the angulation looks good.

http://bomber.smugmug.com/gallery/136027/6/4966127

Getting down, but the back is almost parallel to the slope -- I think that this is kind of the image that I was aspiring to in my mind.

http://bomber.smugmug.com/gallery/136027/6/4966159

Again, I think this rider looks great, but the back is really bent.

I'm not looking to criticize those riders -- just looking at other pictures and trying to find elements of what I should keep in mind and of what I should try not to do just yet...


tom.

[joecarve]

BTW, don't be entirely focused on your toeside. I noticed in the video you're tightening up the end of some heelside turns by forcing the back around (skidding the tail). I did this quite a bit when I was learning...try to let the board finish the turn and roll across to toeside.

As for touching the snow:
Do not bring your hand to the mountain; bring the mountain to your hand.

joe...

[silversurf]

Again, I think this rider looks great, but the back is really bent.

I'm not looking to criticize those riders -- just looking at other pictures and trying to find elements of what I should keep in mind and of what I should try not to do just yet...

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you should *never* be low and over the board, but what should be considered is at what point of you're turn you're crouching too far (bending the back too much and thus putting your weight too far over the board), I think you should try to correct this. I would imagine that if you look at video of the riders you admire that you'll see "compressed" apex of their turns (like the ones you point out in those photos) look similar to yours, but their transitions are different than yours (based on your posted photos/vid). Mostly I see hunching in your shoulders and a continued crouch during the entire ride down the hill, which is a very "skater" style as some have noted. I'm not sure if this is "bad" but if your goal is layout extreme style carves, that will have to change. If it's to bomb down a hill and just make good turns then it might just need some slight modification.

In my riding, I tend to think of myself as a liquid metal piston (funny but hey it's my mind, at least what's left of it), keeping my head and shoulders looking forward and upright, leading with my hands and arms. I may end up in a "crouch" on a heelside (depending on moment and terrain), but my arms are likely up (relatively speaking) and out leading me through the turn and my shoulders and hips following them close behind. It becomes a fluid motion. After that it's just putting my mental rythm to music or imagining a river flowing down the hill. My style tends to be smoother and less aggressive than some, as a result I don't get as deeply laid out.

In the end, it will depend on what you're shooting for as a personal style. There's going to be a few ways to attack this, my advice would be have several styles in your pocket as you'll find snow conditions, terrain, hill traffic, your fatigue, etc. will all dictate what works for you. Experimenting with different riding styles will help you find what you like and don't like, as well as what works and doesn't work for your body. I think in the end you have to develop something of your own, which means there might be an optimal way to ride the hill or the equipment you have, but you should still make it your own, of course trying to get the funamentals in place first.

Anyone in Seattle area who's been around long enough will recall the The Bike Factory, which was owned by Bob Barci (sp?). While I didn't know him personally, he was a fixture on the slopes at Baker, Mt. Hood (summers) and elsewhere. I distinctly remember his riding style was very surfer/skater (hunched like yours through all parts of the turn and transition). He was slower and more methodical, but really interesting to watch. That worked for him and he was one of the first guys snowboarding up here in the NW at Mt. Baker. Things have changed over time but my point is that you're correct to find out what others do and work out the mechanics of riding/carving for yourself, but in the end it's your style and it's your smile at the end of the run.

-c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by tpalka
Am I looking at the right elements when looking at the pictures?

I think your picture selection illustrates your fascination with getting low. I'd worry more about the turn and less about getting your paws on the snow, if I were you - it's holding you back.

But if you want a really good picture of someone getting low with good technique, I think you could do worse than this one.

[philw]

That's a good image - he's not actually bent over at all: you can draw a line down his center of mass and it'll go right through the middle of the board.

Some carving "styles" seem to be to involve throwing oneself down at the snow. Thats a neat trick, but it's getting cause and effect the wrong way around, in my opinion. A bit like novice skiers trying to ride with their feet bolted together...

[tpalka]

A big thank you to everyone who replied with suggestions!

I went out this morning for a few hours, the snow was great (3" fresh, many groomed runs), and I did a few warmup runs and then just worked on the two drills. I found the "hold the tray" one more comfortable -- and I concentrated on making sure that my inside arm was higher, kind of what the "reach for the sky" drill would do too.

I started feeling that my edge digs in a lot better -- once I started angulating more (i.e. "feeling the pinch") and concentrating on the tray, I found that my turns felt a lot more stable, and that I was sometimes getting close to the snow too!

Neil was very right about the fascination with getting low -- the first images of carving for me were the extremecarving Stoked videos, and being new to board-oriented sports in general the desire to put my hand down and to get low was pretty high.

I posted some pictures, as well as a 3 minute movie, from today's drill session at my website: http://www.slackerdom.com/2005/01_ca...lls/index.html

Thanks again for all your help,


tom.

[peterk]

Your avatar perfectly illustrates your problem

Are you trying to tell me that the martini glass is getting in the way???

No way!

[willywhit]

Paul, You're really onto something by putting pics and a short vid up. I think your form is great for such a short time riding hard boots. As you said, don't focus so much on getting low at first. Work on holding a carve thru the whole turn, esp on your heelside. Getting low comes later.Check out these 2 shots http://www.maddmikes.com/MaddSnowboardsInfo.htm and you'll see 2 totally diff riding styles. CMC gets super crouched heelside (grabbing some rail) and Mr Karol is "dragging his purse" in the snow with his right glove while going toeside. This is textbook form. BTW, great website at slackerdom.com. Stay commited to carving and you'll be gettin' low before you know it. http://www.slackerdom.com/2003/03_brazil/index.html was great. My wife and daughter and I are going to be in Brasil for 3 weeks in February. No carving for almost a month ! Muito Legal !

I think those new pics look damn good, and Id agree with focusing on just making complete, linked carves, and THEN start pushin it a little.

thats an Axis youre riding, right? 182?

youre the one that rides at monarch, right? I think we talked before.

anyway...with the ability to interpolate that you have displayed, youll be rippin in NO time!

[tpalka]

Crave2Carve -- thank you for your offer! Very generous. I'll give you a ring during the week...

willywhit -- thanks for the pics. I'm going to stick with the "textbook purse dragging" for now, still have a long way to go on the steeps. Have a great time in Brazil

D-Sub -- yup, I'm the one from Monarch. I went again today, had a great time, we had 8" fresh. Alternating between surfing powder and carving groomers made it one of the best days ever. Thanks for the encouragement! By the way, the board is not an Axis -- it's a Donek Custom 183cm, a used board I bought via the gearswap forum. Twin-tip, all mountain, on the soft side, my only board and I love it.

It was an excellent day -- that tray drill really helps, and I'm concentrating on that and on keeping the "pinch" in the wait (angulation). I have also started driving with my knees, another suggestion I got, and that makes the transitions so much snappier. Thanks again everyone,

tom.

yeah I noticed the tail kick. odd board!

_perhaps_ you might enjoy something more carve specific? No idea about that board though, so...

[tpalka]

Yup, I'm going to borrow a 183 Nidecker from a friend and try it out later this week -- I rode it once before (4th or 5th day) and did like it...

tom.

[dragon fly jones]

Now this may seem harsh, however a coach friend was having that same issue with some skiers and riders she took a broken gate maybe two feet or three feet long and ran it along the the inside of the jacket, and in other case she strapped it into a kids pants and duct taped it place.

Now that seemed to help them out and then there is the Schlopy drill. But that is another note on the site.