Board and plate "System Boards"

[~tb]

I have finally mentally digested all of the equipment I got to play with on my trip to mount hood and feel compelled to share this one lasting impression with you all.

I was absolutely blown away by one particular board and plate combination that I tested, and it was NOT the one I expected to love. We were riding on hideously tight groomed. . . ice. . . and this board and plate were just working so well in concert that I didn't want to stop riding or even slow down until my legs forced me. It was fun race style carving, it was fun free carving, heck, could even lay out a fairly easy eurocarve.

When I was chatting with Sean from Donek about the evolution of the board, he explained how that board has been evolving solely with a plate on it and never without, and you could tell. The board has been refined such that you must ride it with a plate, and furthermore, with the plate at the designed axel spacing. Everything just worked without having to think about setup, or where the axel should be, or where I wanted to move it to. There was only one answer and it just worked.

Where am I going with this. . . get ready for System boards in the next several years (Boards and plates that are designed and paired together and not necessarily interchangeable). Other people have said it, but to get the true benefit out of all of this, a board must be designed in concert with the plate that will be placed on it and the intended axel spacing known and accommodated for by the board builder (Encompassing flex of the plate, flex of the board, stiffness of the hardware, and how each of them impacts the other . . . not just, yeah, there are a set of inserts where you want to put your axels).

Getting away from all this interchangeability will allow for lower, lighter, and higher performing plate systems, but we will sacrifice being able to tweak axel spacing all day long (rather than ride), and might be limited in being able to put a "new plate" from a system board onto an old rock board.

Based on what I rode out at Hood, the board I will order next year will have NO 4X4 inserts, and only one set of plate mount inserts, placed at the location Sean has designed the flex pattern of the board to receive the input of the plate.

If you have a chance to demo/borrow/buy a board plate combo that have been refined together like this, I highly recommend it.

[James Ong]

Tinkler anyone?

[~tb]

Tinkler anyone?

Sure. . . Tinkler has been on this train for a while design "derby" style plates that flex along with the board.

I think the next evolution (that Tinkler of all people should be able to do quite well) will involve the same kind of integration with a plate that isolates more than his older "derby" style system boards.

I know he has been dabbling with the new plate concepts and will be very interested to see what comes out of his shop next season (and hope that I can get on one).

Hey Bryan, I know that you had a picture of a complete Tinkler Board with Tinkler plate, do you know if he has made more?

There is a LOT of iterative refinement that needs to take place to get them to truly work well as a single system, but when it is right, watch out!

[James Ong]

What i have always liked with the tinklers is the lower stack height, now that we are trying softer plates we might also move away from total isolation. Someone really needs to send one to the ses demo tent next year

[~tb]

... now that we are trying softer plates we might also move away from total isolation. Someone really needs to send one to the ses demo tent next year

Couldn't agree with your more here James.

This is exactly what I was feeling in the prototype at Hood. It was really cool that I could get the benefits of the isolation when I needed and wanted them, but also engage the board more directly with very small adjustments in my body position. It was like the best of both worlds. . . and I know that these concepts are still evolving.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Very cool Todd!!! Glad it was a good trip. It snowed 17" the next week. Fun to see the developments and share a few beers too.

Funny, someone posted some of the Olympic videos here the other day. Both USA Olympic snowboarders were on Mike's Top Plates and his modded lower mechanisms. That was six versions ago? Mike works quitely behind the scenes with allot of the top folks in coaching, building, racing. Careful, next thing you know folks will actually consider his TNT designs and Snow Stix. Many of you might remember my efforts to get an early Wind Surf board back from Martha's Vinyard. Mike was doing custom flex tails in the early 80s. And YES! my only purpose in life is to toot his horn Carry on with great designs that make it even more fun to snowboard on alpine gear.

[nekdut]

Bryan, I think I remember seeing a recent pic from you with a BBP mounted on top of a full TNT system. Did you try riding that crazy combo?

[lowrider]

This "New Conclusion"(board and plate combinations) is what JJ's plates and boards have been all about. I've been saying for a few years now that theres a lot of change to come. If anyone is interested in a little research on plates the " Alpine Snowboard Plate thread " is a good place to start. Good luck with the new designs Sean, hope the results include a stack heigh under 17mm.

[Donek]

We've just proposed a new concept that could put a prototype below 13mm. Unfortunately, that must wait until the snow is back. It will also involve some conceptual changes to the board.

[kieran]

It will also involve some conceptual changes to the board.

two aluminium mounting rails laminated laterally into the core, fore and aft?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan, I think I remember seeing a recent pic from you with a BBP mounted on top of a full TNT system. Did you try riding that crazy combo?

Sorry to say. The night before I was headed up I had a Giant Retinal detachment and tear in the right eye. Still looking to recover from that. 3 hours of emergency eye surgery left me grounded ( wrist band reminding me and medical personel not to go over 2000 feet in elevation ) I am starring at that set up along with a few others I am anxious to test.

The bill from the Casey Eye Institute arrived today. 9200.00$ That is for the Surgery only. Not the visits before or after.

[Donek]

two aluminium mounting rails laminated laterally into the core, fore and aft?

No.....it's a secret. for now.

[Hans]

Sorry to say. The night before I was headed up I had a Giant Retinal detachment and tear in the right eye. Still looking to recover from that. 3 hours of emergency eye surgery left me grounded ( wrist band reminding me and medical personel not to go over 2000 feet in elevation ) I am starring at that set up along with a few others I am anxious to test.

The bill from the Casey Eye Institute arrived today. 9200.00$ That is for the Surgery only. Not the visits before or after.

Bryan, hope you and your eyesight will soon be 100%. That surgerybill is high. Hope you have a good health insurance. Still can't understand the health and insurance system in the USA that people get confronted with these high bills.

[Hans]

Will be a nice next season coming up with all that new stuff around

[Jack Michaud]

Now we just need system plate + binding combos! Hint hint Fin! Custom machined cant/lift, direct mount, ultra light, ultra low, yadda yadda yadda.

Todd, what were the specs of the board you're talking about?

Bryan, get well soon!

[piusthedrcarve]

Now we just need system plate + binding combos!

Something like this?

[Jack Michaud]

yup! if the toe/heel blocks are machined with custom cant/lift.

[~tb]

Now we just need system plate + binding combos! Hint hint Fin! Custom machined cant/lift, direct mount, ultra light, ultra low, yadda yadda yadda.

Todd, what were the specs of the board you're talking about?

Bryan, get well soon!

the board I was riding was the latest iteration on the rev 185 with a new "af plate" on it.

Interesting idea. I have been looking at a combined plate binding combo, but am not ready to give up angle adjustment ability.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I love the idea of the lowest stack height and low weight that could be achieved with an integrated board/plate/binding system.I've been working this out for myself with a design that would allow for a small amount of angle adjustment.A very workable design challenge actually.

[piusthedrcarve]

Something like this?

The Plate is actually from www.s5.co.kr, one of Korean binding companies, from last year and it is called 'S5 Isolation Plate". It has been available for (Korean) market from last year but riders were skeptical about its softness (compared to Apex or Boiler plate) and because of that, it was not popular. Since the company produce bindings, the inventor put toe & heel bails without body as shown and achieved Plate + Bindings combination. Binding angles are fixed in between 50-55 degrees.

Too shamed to see great and very advanced concept wasn't recognized by favoring top & popular gears. Now it's matter of time to see binding company to partner with JJA's Board+Plate combo like. Hopefully Donek+Bomber?

[LeeW]

Did somebody say Tinkler?

I thought he has been long gone aeons ago.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Did somebody say Tinkler?

I thought he has been long gone aeons ago.

Nope, he is RIPPIN at 60 !!! Still building some really sweet sticks and plates. Got a call yesteday about some of the newest developments.
I keep telling Mike he needs to write a book about some of the events and adventures from his life of sports and flex.

[corey_dyck]

Someone at SES this year had a Donek plate with 3 T-nuts in the deck to allow a TD2/3 baseplate to be mounted directly on the plate. This still allowed angle adjustments, but obviously it only works if you like zero lift/cant. Very neat idea! If you made custom spacers for the toe & heel blocks you could do whatever you wanted for lift/cant.

It's a complex problem - I want 6-degree lift with just a tiny bit of outward cant on both feet, at a 19.75" stance width, and be able to change from 55 to 60-degrees rear foot angles, plus about 5 higher front foot angles. Try to make a plate that does that as well as accommodating someone with a 22" stance and flat setup. The super-thin TD3 BP cant discs/elastomers are the best compromise I can think of.

[Atom Ant]

so happy to see that there are geeks out there who can't stop thinking about riding even during the summer (and I live on a beach!). I tried translating the Korean site to English via Google, and to say the least its like reading a technical manual written by a illiterate foreigner. Regardless, I was hoping some of your smarty-pants who know far more about the mechanics of a plate system could fill me in: 1) does this plate, if I read correctly, provide both longitudinal and horizontal flex? 2) is this a good thing?

The bomber and Donek plates, as well as the APEX (ridden only the bomber myself, and one of JJA's) seem like the maintain, or try to maintain stiffness in all directions (generally speaking). So this Korean plate would then be a different take on things. Or I have no idea what I am talking about, in which case thanks for reading anyway!

Also seems like the design cuts a lot of weight... anyone notice the metal F2s they are selling? Where can I get me a pair on those? (I know JJA and Tyler Jewells ride them).

[kieran]

anyone notice the metal F2s they are selling? Where can I get me a pair on those? (I know JJA and Tyler Jewells ride them).

f2 race/intec CNC. general availability, but for the price you might as well buy TD3's.

[~tb]

The bomber and Donek plates, as well as the APEX (ridden only the bomber myself, and one of JJA's) seem like the maintain, or try to maintain stiffness in all directions (generally speaking).

I think I know what you mean here, but can you explain a little further? Are you talking about asymmetric plate flexes?

[lowrider]

First generation of plates mostly stiff as a plank, time and testing is revealing that somewere between stiff and softer is more acceptable to the majority, but it is most definitly a personal preference as to which feels best for your style of riding. You can adjust to the plate but once you do you appreciate that there are lots of options related to matching stiff plates to stiff boards soft plates to softer boards and every other possible combination. The results are more than worth the effort but for some reason it's difficult to convince people to try a plate for the first time. There is no " whats best " it's what work best for you and the conditions you ride.

[Atom Ant]

I was referring to the constant, symmetrical flex pattern of the current crop of plates. Of course i am assuming this is the case due to the plank-like design. For example, it seems like the Bomber plate has a constant flex for the deck, and is primarily meant to shift for and aft (nose and tail in case I got that wrong) as the board flexes underneath it. This would render a stable platform for the rider, creating the isolation. It seemed like the Korean plate was meant to add side to side flex as well as the nose-tail shifting, based on the terribly translated version of the site i was trying my best to gleam information from.

[piusthedrcarve]

It seemed like the Korean plate was meant to add side to side flex as well as the nose-tail shifting, based on the terribly translated version of the site i was trying my best to gleam information from.

I don't think the S5 plates promote Side to Side flex. By looking at the photos, i think it allows set distance between plates for width of board. Difference between uni-platform vs 2 platform is to reduce weight of the plates, not to promote/allow side to side flex, I think. Some of reviews has been posted in some korean forum and it was softer than other plate system.

Anyway, here are some translation of the product page.

Material: 7000 Duralumin, Heat treated and tempered on 45C Steel Axis, Stainless Brackets.
Difference: Very rigid on torsional stress. Plate+Bindings combo enable (F2 or S5 bindings)
Spec: Weight 2.1 kg. (With binding bails: 2.7 kg)


- Lifts/Cants can be applied
- Custom (Regular/Goofy, Stance Width), Binding Angle is 50-55 Fixed.


Noticeable Ride Difference:
- Very easy to turn (GS feels SL)
- Buttery turn Initiation & exit
- Plate+Binding Combo height is about same as just bindings alone.. No weird feel from height.




In the reviews, I noticed that he used softer setup (Oxygen proton GS 178 / SL 160, S5 Isolation Plate, Deeluxe Leman). That reminds me lowrider's comments on softer setup for softer boards and harder setup for harder boards.

[lowrider]

What you call the symetrical flex is the dominant advantage the plate provides (isolation and suspension resulting in excellent edge hold on ice). The secondary trait (slow speed stability or lack there of) is what the torsional character of the plate dictates, for most it translates to being comfortable at slow speeds or the ability to peddle. Usually the peddling is more a factor for recreational riding (slow speed stability) is something you adapt to with more usage of a stiff plate. I have built a few plates that articulate in the middle which allow for unrestricted torsional movement and ride excellent the disadvantage is in designing hardware that reduces stack height to an acceptable level. What i consider to be an acceptable height is achievable at under 17mm but only in UPM. My most recent plate is under 16mm. I think a reasonable blend of flex (front to back ) as well as torsionally is achievable in one plate ie; the Bomber 3mm version and would be ideal for the majority of recreational riders whereas the 5mm plates are best suited to superheroes. You can obtain excellent results if you are willing to invest the time to experiment with variatons of plates and boards, glass, metal, stiff, soft they all provide characteristics one desires under certain conditons how you match them up to various plates opens up a world of possibilities. The last point to remember once you start riding a plate is to trust the board commit to you turns. It will provide you with the ride of your life.