Euro Carve technique

[dbmgreen]

is there a step / technique that someone could offer to get me from this position -->







over to a full laid out carve like this --->







I have NO issues with speed / smooth carves etc, but have never been able to make that final 20/30 degrees down to the snow?

I'm thinking its actually gonna be a weight backwards and forwards issue, not actually a "lie down on my side" issue? but am not sure.

I probably tend to ride with my weight over the nose of my board more than anything else. I'm fairly certain from my lines in the snow, that I have pretty decent edge control.

Or am I just dreaming, and only legends can do this

EDITED POST WITH REAL PIC OF ME IN B/W ABOVE

[corey_dyck]

Hopefully someone with more skill than me can chime in, but here's my experience. I started a thread on this same thing a while ago. The consensus was to rotate your body into the turn and use push-pull.

I'm not 100% sure it's possible to sustain a full-on body-dragging carve with all your body weight supported only by the edge. I spent a lot of time trying to do that, the board always disengages from the snow/slides out with that much lateral load and not much vertical load holding it down in the snow. The push-pull technique basically has you entering the turn compressed, then you push the board away from you for a short time and then it comes back under you pretty quickly. Kind of like riding a bike in a straight line and doing a dramatic swerve around a pothole. You're really falling during the middle phase but the board comes back under in time to catch you. This is REALLY fun to get right, and not so much if the board doesn't come back in time.

Putting body parts on the snow greatly reduces how much lateral force the edge needs to support, I believe this is key to getting lower and lower. The key for me was literally pitching my upper body onto the snow while riding the downhill edge. Then the board arcs around and turns under your body to stand you up at the bottom of the turn. I've only got this to work on toeside, I haven't worked out how to do it on heelside yet. My hip gets in the way - i.e. I'm doing something wrong, or maybe not enough confidence.

To me, it's not a pure carve as the board tends to scrape a wider (2-6") path. But it's so much fun that I don't care!

[RCrobar]

Check out this video by a FunCarve, a Russian rider that has made some great tutorial videos on the EC technique/style of doing linked - laid out carves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utQVkZBlfms

If you are riding fast, carving smoothly and are fighting yourself to get lower at the end of your carve I agree that you most likely have too much weight on your front foot too early in your carve.

That said, it is impossible to tell from your static picture what is really happening, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

Because you have a picture of Jacques Rilliet as you end goal, it may be helpful to self evaluate your preferred riding technique ... is it French vs Swiss, etc., as the above advice and video are specific to the Swiss, technique of riding/turning.

What I mean by this is spend a few runs doing slower, controlled Swiss style turns, then try to lay out a carve. When you nail the technique, the down and up laid out motion will be smooth and almost effortless ... even at slower speeds on a relatively flat slope.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Rob

[Hans]

Hard to say from this picture because you are out of the turn already. My problem mostly is/was: too less bodyrotation in the backside. And I have to bend my knees more, to prevent to bend my upperbody to the snow. Start the rotation before entering the turn. That are/were my common mistakes I have to work on. The vids Rob posted, I have put them on my cell and helped me a lot. Also ride with a more experienced rider who can see what you're doing wrong, has helped me a lot.

[dbmgreen]

That said, it is impossible to tell from your static picture what is really happening, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Rob

OK edited that first post with a pic of me, original pic was not of me Found one of me that will have to do, really appreciate the answers, the you tube is very descriptive!

[dbmgreen]

One thing I have always tried to do, is keep the upper half of my body facing down the fall line, (probably cause I hang out with skiers not boarders)

[Hans]

I try to look what I see in the picture: you are not looking where you are heading. Try to look into to turn you are making, and your shoulders and hips will be following easier. Your left shouder and hips are not rotated at all into the frontside turn. I would say just the opposite, so you won't have full control. That said when you want to learn EC Carving/Euro carving (rotating and push and pull). When you make a front side your shoulders and hips must be longitudinal with your boardaxis lenghtwise. That's called the minusposition in the vids Rob posted.

[BlueB]

When you make a front side your shoulders and hips must be longitudinal with your boardaxis lenghtwise.

Must? Not really... There are many ways to skin a cat.
Yes, sure, if you wanted to be 100% "by the book" by Patrice/Jacques. Otherwise, it really depends on your stance angles, gear, style.
Here is a toe side (or as Euros often say "frontside"), just before the fall line, without rotation into the turn:



In my avatar there's one with full rotation.

I'd say that on the wider boards rotation plays bigger rolle. On narrower it's easier to face the bindings, or even counter-rotate a bit after the turn was initiated.
What gear/setup you ride?

[BlueB]

EDITED POST WITH REAL PIC OF ME IN B/W ABOVE

Why is this photoshoped? Troll-lo-lol?

[Hans]

Hi, BlueB. you can see the boards I ride in my profile. From small Virus boards (14 till 15cm width) till wide Coiler, Oxess and Tinkler. I agree with you that many ways leads to Rome we say here. Dbmgreen asked in his first post to lay down carves like in the picture and that is pushpull rotation technique. I am trying to ride different styles. The race style without any rotation at all. Only working with the knees and an upright upperbody. Mostly riding this style with a plated board (Coiler, Oxess and Tinkler). And I am still learning the rotation technique done with my small Virus boards. Made a positive learning curve in the frontside and backside this season. Was not in very good shape this season (both shoulders injured). Enough rotation in the backside and riding to fast is still a learning thing for me.

[BlueB]

Hey Hans! I more or less knew that you had whole lot of various stuff.
My question about gear was directed to OP, to try to understand his situation better...

[dbmgreen]

Why is this photoshoped? Troll-lo-lol?

Oh it was taken from a LONG way away on a crappy day, sorry about the bad photoshop, was just trying to lift the image of me off the snow and get the exposure a little better I know it's a crappy job, but it serves the purpose.

[dbmgreen]

....My question about gear was directed to OP, to try to understand his situation better...

So I ride in Australia, and am waiting on a new 170 ish x 20 VSR ( I just asked him what would be good for me) from bruce at coiler. Currently riding a Nidecker proto 168, and before that a mistral asym 158?

Because there are only a few of us down here, I don't really get to ride with any other carvers, so have watched a lot of youtube. I have ridden with a lot of very good skiers, and have kinda listened to them about what is good skier technique. What I'm getting from you guys is, that might not be correct? But Also that there are a couple of different "correct" techniques depending on what you are trying to achieve. Might try and get some video next weekend, if thats not too indulgent.

edit: I'm 6'1" 180/90lbs (depends on how much swimming i've been doing)

edit 2: Thanks for taking the time to answer! It is much appreciated!!

[Beckmann AG]

Borrow a few kilos from your local SCUBA enthusiast, and take a few runs with the belt. This should improve your sense of spatial awareness and refine your movements.

If you do a lot of swimming, you realize that timing, and subtle movements on propulsion can have significant bearing on your position in the water; and this affects whether you plane or plow, flow or slow.

Spend a few hours with a Yo-Yo.

If you do not own a motorcycle, borrow one and reach some conclusions on the simplest way to create and reduce lean.

Apply your findings to the snow.

[leeho730]

I agree with Beckmann, esp. motorcycle thingy.

If you wish to try extremecarving, the best source of info is their website.

Other than that, speed, timing, good slope gradient and snow condition will help. BTS will also help but not essential. I assume you'll ride Thredbo? Good trails are the ones next to the cruiser lift. Altitude allows better snow; super trail tends to be too icy, otherwise would have been awesome.

[dbmgreen]

I agree with Beckmann, esp. motorcycle thingy.

If you wish to try extremecarving, the best source of info is their website.

Other than that, speed, timing, good slope gradient and snow condition will help. BTS will also help but not essential. I assume you'll ride Thredbo? Good trails are the ones next to the cruiser lift. Altitude allows better snow; super trail tends to be too icy, otherwise would have been awesome.

50cc Aprilia scooter.........................check
BTS system in transit from bomber....check
Thredbo season pass........................check

2 consecutive weekends of preseason snow and a lodge booking for the opening weekend, gotta be happy about that!! 6 sleeps to go YAY

[Beckmann AG]

Try to find something significantly heavier than the Aprilia. While the principles at work are more or less the same, the effect is less obvious when the weight of the rider and moto are too close.
Otherwise you could simply use a bicycle.

[dbmgreen]

From all your comments and reading suggestions, I think I have identified my worst trait, (shoulders not in line with hips) and don't think I will have too much trouble correcting that, mainly because I have always actively tried to keep my shoulders facing the front of the board ... duh

[Puddy Tat]

From the photo it's difficult to tell how much you are or aren't angulating (bending away from the snow to keep pressure on the edge). I had always thought I was angulating until a much better carver than me said I wasn't. Even then I didn't really believe him until I saw some photos of myself later that evening.

His suggestion was to have me take the hand that was on the outside of the turn and put it on my front knee in every turn. This will help force your body into a C-shape, and it also seems to drive your weight forward and help to rotate your upper body into the direction of the turn. For me this single tip made an immediate visible improvement in my ability to get low and hold an edge on black runs as the pressure I was putting on the edge was immediately increased. I went from blowing out if I got much past where you to being able to put my hip on the snow with every turn.

I'm suggesting this because I notice that your outside hand that isn't touching the snow is just kind of hanging out to the rear where mine was in pictures of me prior to getting this particular tip. The picture in my avatar was shot before I made this change so looking at it you can see an example of where the outside hand and arm shouldn't be. While if you look at corey_dyck's avatar (post #2 in this thread) you can see his hand and arm are down and forward and he could easily put his hand on his knee.

Dave

[dbmgreen]

Thanks to everyone who replied, i'm going to put some of the video on my phone, and see what I can do about changing my technique next weekend

[dbmgreen]

Just fitted the BTS system to a new pair of Deelux 325s, happy with the adjustment, bit more forward lean on the rear foot, but how tight do you all go? like I said i'm 190lbs and I have the blue springs. Is there a rule of thumb for setting these up? / or a place to start?

[Jack Michaud]

From all your comments and reading suggestions, I think I have identified my worst trait, (shoulders not in line with hips) and don't think I will have too much trouble correcting that, mainly because I have always actively tried to keep my shoulders facing the front of the board ... duh

is there a step / technique that someone could offer to get me from this position --> over to a full laid out carve like this --->

This is what I dislike about the EC videos. They're great eye candy and great advertising for our sport, but they make new and intermediate carvers think they should be able to do it quickly and with relative ease. EC is an expert maneuver. It sounds like you will get there someday, but you're not there yet. You are tilting your shoulders and reaching down for the snow. I would say this is your worst trait in that picture. This is an unbalanced position. Check out this article on The Toeside Problem for some tips. When you're carving well at an expert level, you don't have to try to EC, the snow just comes up to you. Good luck!

[carvedog]

still photos are hard to tell anything so I barely glanced at them, but if you want to get lower stop reaching for the snow with your right hand on toe side. If you must use your left hand.

Save the right hand reaching for when you are heelside. (Only for 'regular' riding not goofy)

Having done many different styles I aspire to carve the clean line first and then you can go for lower positions after you understand super clean ( and finish the turn) carving. Also unless you have fairly steep runs EC ( or body dragging) slows you down significantly and can be detrimental to fingers, arms and shoulders.

So while it is ok to put both hands down if you wish - be extremely careful you don't actually put pressure down or sooner or later you will rip off body parts.

[b0ardski]

So while it is ok to put both hands down if you wish - be extremely careful you don't actually put pressure down or sooner or later you will rip off body parts.

This is a sig worthy quote

[LeeW]

YES! It's NOT fun when your thumb hook up on the snow high speed. This is one of several reasons why I kinda quit EC stylin' but sparsely do I do so.

Otherwise, I have a much strong preference towards racing stance just to play it safe with my thumb and other appendage of my upper body, man.

[LeeW]

This is a sig worthy quote

It is for I have adopted it, myself because I know the very pain associated with that!

[pokkis]

To run EC you need steep slope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jVztPStsEA

[astrokel]

Gotta pipe in here especially about the motorcycle thing...

When going fast on a motorcycle (or most powered single track vehicles) the tendency is to use classic "bomber" style weighting, that is compression in the apex of the turn. At least that's how I turn on my bike, compress into the tank and try to get my body's COG as close to the bike's COG as possible. EC is all about EXTENSION at the apex. So I'm not sure about how going fast on a bike appies to EC except that you lean over a lot. Now going quickly around a slow turn might be applicable, that is flicking the bike around a relatively tight turn and pushing the bike away from you as you go essentially around your body's COG. It seems to me the more apt physical analogy is pumping a skateboard except the timing on the pump is different (I think... not sure about this though).

If you take really close look at the previous video the "extreme" part of the movement is that the lower the rider goes the more compressed he is in the entry of the turn and the more extended he is at the apex (extreme extension). Jack's comment about "expert" may be apt in that an "expert" may have better control over their movement than a "beginner" but I'm not sure if you need classic "bomber" style expertise to pull it off, in fact it may hurt since it's opposite of what you're trying to achieve. One does need a really good sense of where you are in the turn so as to know the relatively precise point where you need to start the extension and when to compress again to get into position to hit the next turn but that's just riding, right?

The EC of extremecarving.com is not just getting lower, the beginning of the video is a good illustration of that. I agree with Jack though that alot of folks try to fly before they learn how to take off.

But to the OP, BlueB's right on... it depends

[Rob Stevens]

If you take really close look at the previous video the "extreme" part of the movement is that the lower the rider goes the more compressed he is in the entry of the turn and the more extended he is at the apex (extreme extension).

That's gold right there.

The photo? Like the guy at the gas station said; "You can't get there from here". If your nose is pointed downhill and you're not body dragging, it's too late.

The fact is, you have to be traversing in a compressed position. Think about that as happening in your ankles, knees and hips, with your torso still upright enough to see what you're doing.

Did I mention you want to try this heel to toe first? No? well, now I am.

-So, go traversing across the hill, on your heel edge, nice and low.
-Stay low and roll across a flat board to your toes. You should still be mostly going across, but be fading towards the fall line a little.
-Now, take your back hand and put it on or near the snow in front of your back foot. This should be easy and not much of a reach (like you're reaching in your photo) because you're down low with your legs fully flexed.
-From this low position, with your hand out, start to extend out along the snow. You should reach full extension when you're in the fall line.
-As the board starts to come out of the fall line, which it's doing because of the camber reversing and the sidecut (not because you're "steering" it) reverse the move and begin to compress back to your board along the snow and back into your little ball of rider.

You will stall above the fall line, lying flat on the snow. No problem... You probably started too early. Good mistake to make, though.
You will stall before you can get back up after exiting the fall line. No problem... Go a little faster. You should be stoked anyway, because at least you got out of the fall line.

Most people try this turn standing WAY TOO TALL at the entry. You will never get it that way. You have to start in a little ball and extend along the snow from there.

These are my words.

[dbmgreen]

Hey thanks for this, salient points I tried something similar to this last week, and came up with satisfactory results, (given that I was riding on icy man made hardpack)

I had never really thought of it in a "push pull" way, but thats exactly how it works. I was "washing" out my heel side turns, but am trying to set up new boots, and a BTS system, so there is something going on there to fix up as well, because I have never had that problem before.