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Thread: anyone hear about kesslers breaking???

  1. #1
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    anyone hear about kesslers breaking???

    My buddy and I broke kessler 162s in the same spot just above the front binding? It cracked and ripped the p tex wide open and the whole edge and base is loose.

  2. #2
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    I broke an old 185, just in front of front inserts. I was riding it with a plate and thumbled over the nose.

    Kessler or not Kessler, in front of the front binding is the most common spot to brake an alpine board...
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle3 View Post
    My buddy and I broke kessler 162s in the same spot just above the front binding? It cracked and ripped the p tex wide open and the whole edge and base is loose.
    Which top sheet version - Metal Top (MT), Black Top (BT) or White Top (WT)? And p-tex that is wide open is that BASE side or Top sheet?
    I've seen MT "Bent" on top side. Never seen P-tex top sheet (MT&WT) bent or cracked. I've nose dived - full dead stop and roll on both my BT171 & 180 and survive, actually twice on my 180. I wud think it will bent if that was a MT.

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  4. #4
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    If it's going to break, it's most likely to break in front of the front binding.
    Sean Martin - president/founder
    Donek Snowboards Inc.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle3 View Post
    My buddy and I broke kessler 162s in the same spot just above the front binding? It cracked and ripped the p tex wide open and the whole edge and base is loose.
    yes, my wife. she heard quite a bit about it.
    Davekempmeister

  6. #6
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    I broke the black top sheet and Marian broke a white top sheet. We both had bomber boiler plates installed.
    Scott

  7. #7
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    Never had problem with board until putting boiler plate on two months ago.

  8. #8
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    I suspect we will be seeing more and more of this with more people riding plates. In putting a plate on a board, you are effectively creating a two foot long lever arm. The force of both feet is now transferred to a point in front of the front binding. The stiffer the plate, the more force you end up putting there since the flex of the plate will absorb less of the energy. It all gets transferred to the front binding. A riding style that places a lot of weight toward the nose or riding with the rear knee pulled in toward the front will make it worse. With no plate, that force from the rear leg is distributed more evenly along the board between the feet. This was something I noticed when I first rode a plate on a board.

  9. #9
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    Now the post play analysis! Were these plates using the UPM or 4X4 hardware and the snow conditions at the time , Into which inserts were the plate hardware mounted. Perhaps a word of caution to other; a plate on a board will allow it to flex differently than the same board with bindings mounted directly to the board. The plate eliminates the flat spot on the board (normally created by your weight pushing down where the bindings are mounted.( glass boards tend to stand up to the plate loads better than a metal board. Point loading on a metal board is a little more critical. Remember what happened with TD1's on a metal board? Plated boards need to be built differently than an unplated board. Thanks for the heads up guys sorry for your loss. If you are in the market for a new board for your plate you might want to consult with Dr. Coiler i hear he has something new in the works involving plates. Don't tell him i sent you.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle3 View Post
    I broke the black top sheet and Marian broke a white top sheet. We both had bomber boiler plates installed.
    Scott
    There you go, first time I heard. Wud be great if u share pixs. Good to know, about the plates. FYI: I don't use plates on both.

    Recently I took over a custom 2011-12 KST WT-183 made for APEX plate and I noticed the difference in the thickness where the inserts are and also it extend slightly longer pass where the inserts but then decrease the thickness dramatically instead gradual (I compare with SG FR185). Both SG and KST are made for 180lbs but the KST is so much stiffer on the nose and tail. Never try plate on the KST WT, not yet.

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  11. #11
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    Plate & Mechanism Colliding?

    I would look to see if there were any marks on the bottom of the plate to suggest that the front edge of metal housing that holds the axle bushing in the front plate mechanism had impinged on the bottom of the plate.
    If the mechanism impinges on the plate at this point then further bending forces applied to the front of the board do not get spread along the whole board. Now the front part bends against the sharp edge of the base of the front plate mechanism, apply enough pressure & BOOF! one broken board, or plate.

    The clearance issue is more of a problem at the sliding end of the plate mechanism because of the greater length of that axle bushing housing.

    Professional and amateur plate designers/builders (Fin, Sean Martin, lowrider, myself and others) will all have made varying decisions about how much clearance is needed to reasonably prevent this occurring. How much depends in part on the radius of the curve the board takes when under normal loads compared with, say an extreme load in a sudden stop.

    Boards would fail, before plates were invented, under extreme bending loads against the sharp edges of front binding plates. Hence people made spacers to go under the bindings to try and spread the loads.

    SunSurfer
    Alan McKenzie (a.k.a. SunSurfer)

  12. #12
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    no plate involved in my case - metal topsheet 185 KST - i was using the catek polycarbonate spacers but i don't think they were a culprit. after licking my wounds and lots of thought, i concluded that some of the board's magic comes at this cost. it's tough but the boards are made to win races and not made with longevity in mind for the recreational type (me).

    i still sometimes think that if it wins races under the stresses of Olympians and World Cup riders, it should hold up to me. that's faulty logic because they break them too - the difference is they just reach for another. (i got another - i can't help it)
    Davekempmeister

  13. #13
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    Can you guys post some pics?

  14. #14
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    Just as a thought........ I had two boards break last season, not Kessler's, however, both breaks were just above the front binding, in both cases it was confirmed that boards broke on the spot where the liner pin hole used to align the multiple layers of material, both manufactures have since changed the location of the pin to further up the nose of the board to avoid the high stress area. This manufacturing change resulted in far fewer breaks. And both were replaced free of charge...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcaple View Post
    both manufactures have since changed the location of the pin to further up the nose of the board to avoid the high stress area. This manufacturing change resulted in far fewer breaks.
    Which two manufacturers changed the pin location?
    "Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them" -Albert Einstein

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunSurfer View Post
    If the mechanism impinges on the plate at this point then further bending forces applied to the front of the board do not get spread along the whole board. Now the front part bends against the sharp edge of the base of the front plate mechanism, apply enough pressure & BOOF! one broken board, or plate.
    I guess that is why they have a bumper under the duck-bill, to reduce that point load.

  17. #17
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    Lets not dwell on the negatives (glass half full thing) just think how much fun was being had on these boards with the plates just before they self destructed. Now the owners get to enjoy a whole new set of thrills specking out their new boards and deciding do i stick with 4x4 or commit to UPM (If you have to think about this you need a new helmet too ! UPM, UPM, UPM)

  18. #18
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    UPM is a half-solution. Plates, to become really functional and usefull to an average alpine rider, as well to stop destroying the boards, need to be trouly integrasted in the boards and way lighter, and slider mechsnisms need to dissapear. In other words board/plate system, from the factory, as "one piece".
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueB View Post
    UPM is a half-solution. Plates, to become really functional and usefull to an average alpine rider, as well to stop destroying the boards, need to be trouly integrasted in the boards and way lighter, and slider mechsnisms need to dissapear. In other words board/plate system, from the factory, as "one piece".
    Unfortunately some sort of sliding part of the mechanism is required for any isocline plate to do its' thing. The geometric principles underpinning the concept make this self evident.

    For anyone who is unclear about how plates work, read the Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems thread with care.

    SunSurfer
    Alan McKenzie (a.k.a. SunSurfer)

  20. #20
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    Maybe... Or, maybe some latteral thinking is required
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    Our first race plate hit the snow in the summer of 2009. Since then, we've sold a lot of plates to World Cup and other FIS carded athletes. Total snow days must number in the tens of thousands. In all that time, the number of plate related board failures have numbered exactly - zero.

    And to get back to the original poster's question - I've heard of Kessler boards breaking. And I've heard of Oxess, SG, Coiler, Jasey Jay, Black Pearl and F2 breaking. If someone builds an unbreakable board, you won't want to ride it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apex Insider View Post
    If someone builds an unbreakable board, you won't want to ride it.
    Second that! I'd rather have my board broken, than my leg.

    Next to that, I'll stick to my statement that plates (as constructed nowadays) will disappear from the freecarving sector in a couple of years. You have to sacrifice too many benefits for just a marginal improvement.
    Opening an oyster

  23. #23
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    Frank from Virus had an interesting setup at SES. No moving parts, rubber bushings only between the board and plate. Looked quite simple, though I'd imagine those bushings have a hard (and possibly short) life.

    He mentioned that tuning could be done by changing bushing durometer of the various 12 bushings.
    Last edited by corey_dyck; February 28th, 2012 at 06:13 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by corey_dyck View Post
    Frank from Virus had an interesting setup at SES. No moving parts, rubber bushings only between the board and plate. Looked quite simple, though I'd imagine those bushings have a hard (and possibly short) life.

    He mentioned that tuning could be done by changing bushing durometer of the various 12 bushings.
    This design made me think of JP1's Gizmo with a single top plate. I have 2 days on this board now. It is a super fun board to ride. We had very wind scoured conditions on Sunday and the board did a good job of isolating me from the chatter beneath me. I currently have it set up asym, under toe and heel, and don't notice anything weird riding it. I get instant pressure when tipping the board up on edge. The one thing that I notice is that it doesn't allow the board to flex quite as smoothly into the arc as a hinge/slide design does.

    This plate does have the "duckbill" style of design.

    Sorry, OT moment there. As others have said, any board can break. I think davekempmeister said it best in post #12

    Ink

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    Last edited by inkaholic; February 28th, 2012 at 08:46 AM. Reason: added vid link
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  25. #25
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    Metal boards are great. But they wear out. And sometimes break. Name:  jasongs.JPG
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  26. #26
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    I could be proved wrong but last i heard there has not been a metal Coiler failure, I ride my Metal Coiler with a plate with great confidence in the board builder. The plate builder, well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we'll see.[QUOTE=Apex Insider;372245]Our first race plate hit the snow in the summer of 2009. Since then, we've sold a lot of plates to World Cup and other FIS carded athletes. Total snow days must number in the tens of thousands. In all that time, the number of plate related board failures have numbered exactly - zero.

    And to get back to the original poster's question - I've heard of Kessler boards breaking. And I've heard of Oxess, SG, Coiler, Jasey Jay, Black Pearl and F2 breaking. If someone builds an unbreakable board, you won't want to ride it.[/QUOTE]

  27. #27
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    Lightbulb they all break

    Quote Originally Posted by lowrider View Post
    I could be proved wrong but last i heard there has not been a metal Coiler failure, I ride my Metal Coiler with a plate with great confidence in the board builder. The plate builder, well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, we'll see.
    All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors.

    In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites.

    If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards.

    I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode.
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  28. #28
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    Bingo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bordy View Post
    All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors.
    In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites.
    If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards.
    I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode.
    Best post.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bordy View Post
    All boards break. Including Coliers, I have seen broken metal and broken non metal boards from all manufactors.

    In the past I have heard people in the industry, blame, bindings, boots and now plates for the falures. I personally think there is no one or thing to blame for failure, it is the fault of the wood and lamanites.

    If you do a search here for boards breaking you can clearly see that there always has been and always will be broken boards.

    I always think the same thing, better the board then your body. I have seen boards break mid turn, during crashes, involving trees, lift towers, other people, even delam while going straight. Boards are made of wood, wood breaks. Have you ever walked through a forest and not seen a downed tree? Yet we still use wood to build lots of things while knowing it can and may break, snowboards included. You could built a board that doesn't break but you would hate the way it rode.
    OK now its getting personal and since we have a night off at ECES I can put in my opinions. Firstly I feel failure due to what can be considered normal usage and failure due to abnormal stresses are not to be put into the same category as some here seem so quickly to do so. Every year I do have a few boards break but under circumstances which this certainly can be expected ( mostly crashes) Boards may be made of wood but if you look closely you may also notice they have other things put onto and into them to reinforce the wood in many ways. I can proudly say that in the last 4 seasons since releasing Titanal boards you could count my number of warranty related replacements on one hand. As a matter of fact, if I screwed up on my bandsaw and cut off all my fingers ( including thumb) you could still count the warranty issues on that hand! Yes ZERO. While I may have walked through a forest and seen a downed tree, I have never seen one properly wrapped in Titanal and glass/carbon have any troubles(-:
    Failures in the binding areas can and should be able to be eliminated as it is such a small area that reinforcement in that area does not add much weight. Having a set of inserts pull out while riding aggressively is something that we should strive to never let happen as it can happen at bad times and possibly have bad consequences. Fortunately most of the problem are not catastrophic to the rider as the top skin of the board will almost always hold things together. However it is catastrophic to the board and can certainly spoil the day of a rider who figures he did nothing wrong. There is always a bit of friction between board builders and hardware manufacturers as they can bring out a new product which has unknown stresses on the boards and we do not have the time to do long term testing which may be required to get results either one way of the other. As you can imagine, I have seen the inside of most major types of boards and it is a matter of the way they are assembled with associated reinforcement ( or lack thereof) which can greatly affect the longevity of the board under the stresses of high performance riding. IMO these insert related problems are in boards that just do not have enough reinforcement to bring the margin of safety up to where it should be. The plates may be adding additional stresses which were unknown during the time of manufacturing that board so its not really fair to blame the boards since they were not designed to handle the associated stress now being put on them. However if the hardware becomes commonly accepted, its up to the board manufacturer to hopefully come up with a solution to handle the additional stress. The 4x4 system does put a lot of stress on that area while the UPM spreads it out a bit more so the same level of reinforcement in each of those ares can most likely be of different levels. If you open up your failed board and find it just relies on the wood core to hold the inserts with no additional reinforcement, its most likely going to fail as the quoted lumberjack has stated. It somewhat boils down to time and money as doing that additional work can increase production times( $) and some may feel its easier to just replace the odd board which blows up or make excuses and leave the riders out of luck
    Last edited by Bruce Varsava; February 29th, 2012 at 04:12 PM.
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  30. #30
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    I guess if Coilers don't break, I don't want to ride them
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