Leg pain! :(

[NoirX252]

For a while, my front leg (left leg, regular rider) has been having pain.
No shin bang red/marks, but a deep throbbing (not very painful, but there is pain)... deep in the muscle or bone...

and there is pain on the knees too, not sure if it's cause of stance or boots?
Working with 0 and 3 cant td1's with af700 boots. I tried tightening them, still pain, noticeably when I turn one footed off the lift. (I feel the pain deep in my leg/bone as i go aginst the boot cuff or so to turn.

Knock kneed too, i adjusted boot cants for this. I tried 0 cant front 3 rear, or 3 front 0 rear, (AF700's have a lot of built in forward lean).... 60/45 60/50 63/58 60/58 55/50 51/48 and various others... 19.25 inch stance... boots centered, or gilmour bias. (24.5 boots on 18cm 175 prior 12m sidecut)

Anyone have any suggestions as to what's causing the pain or stance suggestions to fix this?

Rear/right leg is fine. Sitting down right typing this, my feet are in like 15/-20 "stance", my knees caps are pointing outwards, even if I point my feet straight ahead.... (maybe beckmann can chime in on stance suggestions?) I'd like to work with the equipment I have.

[Puddy Tat]

So where on the leg is this pain? In the front, to the inside, to the outside?

[NoirX252]

outside, I have already adjusted the boot cuff canting thoo (just stomping down on ground with boots is even, before on the other setting, would repeatedly not hit the floor flat)

edit: at least I think outside, I'm not so sure now.... think it's to the outside .. but deep in like in the bone area...

[Puddy Tat]

I get this same pain, but on both legs on the outside about 4 or 5 inches above the ankle gone. I ride UPZ RTRs and UPZ ATBs with Deeluxe 141 thermo molds.. I do know that going from a liner with a tongue to a full wrap thermo helped but didn't completely eliminate the pain. I adjusted the canting outward last night which seems to have removed a bunch of pressure when I put the boots on and walked around. I was going to go out and try them today, but it snowed 6" last night.

I suspect even with this change it may not go away completely this season, because I think I've perhaps bruised the muscle a bit.

Like you said above Beckman can probably help better than my experience with this seeing as I haven't completely resolved my issues either

Dave

Dave

[NoirX252]

I think it gets worse if I'm "under leveraged" from any stance setup with splay with my front boot inbound... not sure... or if it's from the more lateral pressure on the leg from higher stance angle...

dam pain!

I have a full wrap thermoflex on the af700's (full wrap meaning liner wraps around your leg completely... liner lacking a tongue.. right?

[pogokoenig]

Is it on the outside of your shin? You cannot really figure if it is the muscle or the bone?

If both yes, better watch out! Runners have this quite often when overtrained. Hardbooters can get that as well. I had that 4 years ago and I ignored it for too long. At the end it turned out to be hairline cracks in the fibula, that resulted in a total crack.

The only thing that really helps is resting. You better consult your physician.

Besides that I now train my shin muscles as well and I have softened up my set-up by throwing out step-ins.

[NoirX252]

Would I feel pain right now if I had cracks? (I just smacked my shin from all angles... no pain)
although I have been riding 6-7 days a week.... hmmmmmmm......

[Beckmann AG]

Would I feel pain right now if I had cracks?

Borrow a tuning fork, ring it, and set it against the bone. If you have (a) stress crack(s), you'll know it.
Odds are good you don't.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what's causing the pain or stance suggestions to fix this?

In short, you're asking various tissues to endure a load for which they are not suited.

While a flat front binding is appropriate in some cases, those are in the minority.
Inboard canting at the back foot, in combination with a flat front, tends to twist the board on the heelside turn, and this may be part of your problem.

As stands, the mechanical advantage favors your board on the heelside turn, so the loads of that turn are expressed against the side of your front leg, rather than through the soles of your feet.

Your boot cuff should not be considered a lever of activation, rather a lever of stabilization.

I'd like to work with the equipment I have.

"Hey Doc, it hurts; but only when I do this."
"Well... Stop doing that..."

Resign yourself to the possibility that you may not be able to find resolution with your present bindings. The TD 1 is mighty fine, but not without the ability to fine tune the canting and lifting.
If you are on a budget, and mechanically competent, you do have options.
At the very least though, this will involve another 3 degree base disc, some longer fasteners, and a bit of creativity.

PM me your email, and I'll forward additional information.

[corey_dyck]

Borrow a tuning fork, ring it, and set it against the bone. If you have (a) stress crack(s), you'll know it.

That sounds both horrifying and fascinating!

[NoirX252]

Beckmann always has interesting solutions!

[BobD]

That sounds both horrifying and fascinating!

He moonlights as a private contractor at a black prison site

[koldo]

Beckmann,

I realised I have a simmilar problem, I just didn't think it's an issue, since the pain was very minor and always faded away after riding.
I ride Ibex binding with rear inward cant and flat front. Do you think riding both feet flat would change anything? I don't really want to put a inward canting disc in front of my front leg, tried it once and it didn' t feel comfortable at all.

Thanks!

[Hans]

Try to start from zero - zero cant disks and ride at least one full day with it (4 hours). Will feel strange at first, but I use them on all my boards nowadays. You already have enough forward cants in your boots. You can also use a shinprotector like shintronics. Used them in the beginning when I had Northwave 950 boots were the tongues were small and the plastic became very stiff in the cold. Now my son uses them now and then. And I use them after three days when I have my Red track 700 on my feet: the tongues of these boots are somewhat more firm than from my white 700 tracks, my lower shins getting worn out/red meat.

[skatha]

When I was an active duty AF doc, we used the tuning fork trick against the tibia to figure out who had stress fractures instead of shin splints and who didn't...the middle C one works best...it's not just Beckmann....

If it's a lateral shin pain, it may just be muscular strain from the anterior tibialis muscle-that muscle lifts the foot. You may be constantly lifting the foot against the boot whilst turning and what you are actually feeling is a "bonk" or severe lactic acid buildup...

[jburrill]

Too much foreward lean on your front boot.

[carvedog]

I have had something that sounds similar years ago. Also when riding a lot and hard. Too bad that isn't a problem now.

The solution for me was to do a warmup run with boots slightly loose. It seems like if I crank my boots down to full carve or race settings before my calves are up to full operating temp, I would get that deep throb in my calf.
Don't know if that helps. It seemed worse on my carve boards, but those are usually the ones I would go tighter on so it make sense. Mid to high 60s on stance with flat binders.

[Beckmann AG]

He moonlights as a private contractor at a black prison site*

Speaking of moonlight; best fear the distant rotor chop in the dark of night...

Koldo,
Some riders do 'just fine' with flat/flat, or flat/lift-cant. Many, however, do not, and for a number of reasons.
Those who truly prosper with inward cant at the front foot tend to be bowlegged.

Removing the inward cant from the rear foot on my old Variplates was an eye-opener...

Most likely, the inherent flexibility of the Ibex grips are reducing damaging feedback from your board 'at work', which is why your discomfort is tolerable.
(As in, if the binders were stiffer, you wouldn't put up with the pain.)
The stiffer the interface, the finer the cant and lift needs be tuned. * If I'm not mistaken, the Ibex cant is probably around 7 degrees? *I cant to less than a tenth, and it makes a difference, so choosing between zero and 7 leaves a fairly wide margin for error.

As a baseline, both boots should share the load of the board trying to remove itself from the arc of the turn.
The mechanical advantage of these 'levers' should be balanced in*effect to both toe and heel edge.
When you experience localized discomfort, generally against the lateral aspect of the lower leg, odds are good that something is geometrically 'out of whack'.

As JB points out, forward lean plays a part, although if that was the sole consideration, the pain would likely be at the front and back of the leg, and not so much at one side alone.

Stance angle comes into play as well.

As Carvedog suggests, riding hard right out of the gate with tight cuffs can 'shock' the lower leg; and this can be affected by taking an easy run or two with looser cuffs. *As with forward lean, this tends to affect a greater area, rather than a specific location.*

The important thing to note is that pain and discomfort should not be ignored, or accepted as part of the riding experience.

...it may just be muscular strain from the anterior tibialis muscle-that muscle lifts the foot. ... and what you are actually feeling is a "bonk" or severe lactic acid buildup...

Common to XC skiers in the first few minutes of a workout, and early season, when the heel is too high relative to the forefoot as determined by boot ramp.

[BobD]

On a more serious note, The rear heel lift tips the whole body frame forward because the rear heel is an inch higher than the front. I can cope with it when I am fit, but need a riser plate under the front binding these days.

[Nicotine]

I am experiencing the same thing with new t 3 step in's in what were very comfortable boots in my burton bindings. My leg is too sore to try it out but, could my old, comfortable wide stance be the culprit. I wonder if bringing the stance together could solve this issue?

[Puddy Tat]

...Most likely, the inherent flexibility of the Ibex grips are reducing damaging feedback from your board 'at work', which is why your discomfort is tolerable.
(As in, if the binders were stiffer, you wouldn't put up with the pain.)
The stiffer the interface, the finer the cant and lift needs be tuned. ...

I am experiencing the same thing with new t 3 step in's in what were very comfortable boots in my burton bindings. My leg is too sore to try it out but, could my old, comfortable wide stance be the culprit. I wonder if bringing the stance together could solve this issue?

The comment on lateral stiffness is very interesting and makes sense as I'm also running TD3 SI binders. Wonder if Sidewinders (Step-ins of course) would reduce this by allowing the lateral give (ie not slamming the side of my leg against something unyeilding, or would the pressure be there anyways as it has to be to initiate a turn?

Dave

[Beckmann AG]

My leg is too sore to try it out but, could my old, comfortable wide stance be the culprit. I wonder if bringing the stance together could solve this issue?

Generally, the softer the interface, the wider and lower the stance requirements for stability. *As the interface becomes more stable, the stance may become narrower.
Your previous stance may well have been accommodating binding flex in addition to body geometry.

...or would the pressure be there anyways as it has to be to initiate a turn?

You need cuff contact to maintain a turn, but shouldn't require it to initiate*that turn. When the boots and clamps are adequately configured, they should vanish into the background. As in, you think you're riding with a very responsive pair of trainers on your feet.

Adding 'flex' to the system will blunt the shocks that arise from errant inputs and outputs, but likely won't affect underlying geometric issues.

If your front leg is the issue, go out and rail a few slow turns one-footed on gentle terrain. It should be obvious whether or not the relevant systems are 'in balance'.
When that task becomes facile, not through practice and struggle, but through mechanical manipulation, set up the rear foot to complement.

Bear in mind that some 'styles' of riding are incompatible with some configurations and physiques.

[yooperboy]

Holy Wah!
Lots of good stuff here. I suffer too. Long time listener, almost first time caller! A "Carver Extrordinare" and very reputable rider and board builder and I had this discussion at SES this year. His advice.. Listen to what your body is telling you when you ride. My issue was the same pain on both legs, heel side carve. Front leg, left, back leg left. No brusing, but WOW! Tried to ride it out the rest of last year, cranked the boots down and made it worse. Almost cried before I quit! I guess I'm a coward, cause I hate to cry on the mountain. Anyway, for me... I was twisting in my boots... so wrong...but the point is, I was doing something my body rejected. I increased my angles along with some other pointers about rotation and TaDah! Much better. Point being.. if you go to the Dr. and say,"It hurts when I do this." The answer is going to be expensive and, "Dont do that". The best thing I got from said Extrordinare was, listen listen listen to your body and no matter what is published, go with what the body says. We all have ridden crap and struggled through the learning curve. some of us are better than others, but if it doesnt work, change it, and not because its written here!

[Nicotine]

PROBLEM SOLVED! My buddy today noticed that my rear cant plate was oriented incorrectly. I was leaning tail to tip instead of heel side to toe side in alignment with my riding angle. I'd been riding without the leverage of my rear leg on my heelsides. I guess I'd been trying to crank the heels with mostly my front leg with minimal input from the rear leg.
J
Changed the canting angle on rear binding and everything changed! These T3 step-ins RoCk!


"I am experiencing the same thing with new t 3 ste in's in what were very comfortable boots in my burton bindings. My leg is too sore to try it out bu could my old, comfortable wide stance be the culprit. I wonder if bringing the stance together could solve this issue?"