Ice - Getting low

[NoirX252]

How low can one get on ice/frozen granular? (mixed/varied patches of frozen groomed granular/ice).

I can link carves on it, but on heel sides my butt is maybe a foot or so off the snow most of the time... if I try to get low to the point my butt is almost touching/touching, the edge hold gets a bit hairy.

Is this a technique issue or am I not supposed to edge it this high on these conditions?

[queequeg]

Started to respond to this earlier but was waiting for maybe somebody else with more experience to chime in. Nobody has so I'll drop in my 2 cents.

I don't generally have a lot of problems on hard icy surfaces, provided my edges are sharp, I'm riding well, and the ice is smooth. When I think "frozen granular" condition I think of hard ice with lots of hard frozen lumps in it, which is definitely challenging to hold on. Depending upon the size of the lumps, it may be somewhat pointless to get low in those kind of conditions (though I suppose there are people who are willing to risk the bruises and go for it anyway ... kudos).

But generally, when it is icy:

1) make sure your edges are sharp!
2) a softer flexing board will grip better than a harder flexing board (generally)
3) you need to lower your center of gravity and keep close to your board. If you stand up in your turns on an icy surface you're gonna go down.
4) Angulate dramatically. (note: if you are worried about getting low and reaching for the snow because of it: you may not be angulating enough).
5) initiate smoothly and firmly.
6) Make sure you are not booting out at all. Booting out on ice will immediately cause you to lose all edgehold.

It's really hard to get useful advice on personal technique over the internet - are there some capable riders in your area that you can get together with??? Hope that helps.

[NoirX252]

It's harder to bend my knees to get low on race boots (af700 with rab, if I try to bend knees my ankles do not flex along therefore my butt just sticks out).

Conditions were like... I guess a snowcone like consistency with some patches of clear ice on top. There was definitely ice on the bottom of the "snowcone like" layer. Think they groomed it after the freeze. It rained yesterday and I think it was about 26 degrees in the morning...

Started to respond to this earlier but was waiting for maybe somebody else with more experience to chime in. Nobody has so I'll drop in my 2 cents.

I don't generally have a lot of problems on hard icy surfaces, provided my edges are sharp, I'm riding well, and the ice is smooth. When I think "frozen granular" condition I think of hard ice with lots of hard frozen lumps in it, which is definitely challenging to hold on. Depending upon the size of the lumps, it may be somewhat pointless to get low in those kind of conditions (though I suppose there are people who are willing to risk the bruises and go for it anyway ... kudos).

But generally, when it is icy:

1) make sure your edges are sharp!
2) a softer flexing board will grip better than a harder flexing board (generally)
3) you need to lower your center of gravity and keep close to your board. If you stand up in your turns on an icy surface you're gonna go down.
4) Angulate dramatically. (note: if you are worried about getting low and reaching for the snow because of it: you may not be angulating enough).
5) initiate smoothly and firmly.
6) Make sure you are not booting out at all. Booting out on ice will immediately cause you to lose all edgehold.

It's really hard to get useful advice on personal technique over the internet - are there some capable riders in your area that you can get together with??? Hope that helps.

[queequeg]

It's harder to bend my knees to get low on race boots (af700 with rab, if I try to bend knees my ankles do not flex along therefore my butt just sticks out).

Those are stiff boots. The RAB doesn't help either. I would consider getting a BTS. You need to be able to bend down low. Without being able to crouch down comfortably it will be hard to progress. Otherwise, some people have difficultly getting crouched/compact because of their stance - again, something that would benefit more from direct in-person analysis. Do you plan on coming to ECES?

[NoirX252]

Those are stiff boots. The RAB doesn't help either. I would consider getting a BTS. You need to be able to bend down low. Without being able to crouch down comfortably it will be hard to progress.

How do racers deal with this deficit then?

PS: I'm no lightweight, I'm 230 lbs, incase you are thinking something along those lines.

[kieran]

How do racers deal with this deficit then?

northwave .950's from the previous century.

[jtslalom]

NoirX252,
Replying to your original question, it is very possible to get "low" on icy conditions. I personally feel that I must get lower when riding ice to keep my center of mass over my edge. However, I'm not sure what you mean by gettin "low". If you are talking about getting low by leaning into the center of your turn then I haven't seen that happen. If you are talking about driving your knees low and keeping your c.o.m. as far over your edge as possible, I have seen that many times. Watch racers run an icy course and try to emmulate them. I think your better off with a race inspired carve when riding icy conditions.

[lafcadio]

Hi Noir,

I'm curious, about where in NY you're located? I have family in the Buffalo/Western New York area who ski at Holiday Valley and I sometimes bring my board with me when I visit. Is that anywhere near you?

Back to the original topic... when conditions get icy, I typically feel good if I can continue to keep the board carving. I haven't thought much about how low I'm getting to the snow (or ice as the case may be), but as others have already pointed out keeping my body low to the board definitely helps. You may have seen references to "East coast surivival technique", which I interpret as a highly angulated, very low to the board (especially on edge changes), keeping as much mass as possible over the edge -- basically exaggerating everything.

Regards,
Michael

[Erik J]

...what jt said

Also give us some more details about your setup. Width of your stance, binding angles, any canting. Too narrow of a stance can keep you from positioning yourself where you want to be.

Knees bent

Keep your upper body "quiet" - especially on good old NY glare ice

Be aware of your arms - keep them forward of your torso. An arm trailing behind you may unbalance you on ice.

Look into your turns. The sound of ice can distract a person and make one look too closely towards the nose of the board. Put earplugs in to deaden the sound of scraping ice. It might help to concentrate your senses. Just don't drown out all sound.

At the top of the run, grab your balls with one hand and beat your chest with the other like a wild silverback gorilla. Tell the mountain "I'm coming, do not f@$k with me."

just sayin

[NoirX252]

Yep, I'm in Buffalo, NY.

I'm aware of keeping my body low, but my boots just won't flex at the ankle joint, I figured this was ok and I shouldn't get as low as I do when softboot carving (low as in bending knees low).

PS: the "low" I was referring to in this topic was edge angle, but I am very interested on how to bend my knees more in stiff boots too.

Hi Noir,

I'm curious, about where in NY you're located? I have family in the Buffalo/Western New York area who ski at Holiday Valley and I sometimes bring my board with me when I visit. Is that anywhere near you?

Back to the original topic... when conditions get icy, I typically feel good if I can continue to keep the board carving. I haven't thought much about how low I'm getting to the snow (or ice as the case may be), but as others have already pointed out keeping my body low to the board definitely helps. You may have seen references to "East coast surivival technique", which I interpret as a highly angulated, very low to the board (especially on edge changes), keeping as much mass as possible over the edge -- basically exaggerating everything.

Regards,
Michael

[NoirX252]

Messed around with my stanced quite a bit

board: 175 prior 12m sidecut, custom made for previous buyer. it's a glass board. 18cm width
bindings: bomber td1
boots: af700 with rab with grey tongues. 24.5 mp

stance: 19.5" 0 cant front 3 cant rear.

I've experimented with 60/57, 50/55, but my foot is always pushing on the outsides of the boot like it wants more splay, I made a breakthrough the other day at about 60/47. (The snow wasn't icy, but it was bumpy from the mass crowds on sunday, and I never got so low on my heel sides to have my butt graze the snow over and over, the turns were so tight the 12m sidecut felt very very small to me, I repeatedly kept hitting "stall" speeds due to the very quick tight turns and me not transitioning fast enough, (I couldn't let the turn finish, or else I would almost stall.. or stall).

On ice this didn't work, in fact my heel sides were better than toe sides. Until I bumped up the rear foot angle, I think I may have been booting out on toe sides with the 47 degree angle.

edit: yes my boots are biased on the center of the bindings, I took a protractor to the edge/boot, at 47 degrees i boot out toe side at about 75 degrees.

...what jt said

Also give us some more details about your setup. Width of your stance, binding angles, any canting. Too narrow of a stance can keep you from positioning yourself where you want to be.

Knees bent

Keep your upper body "quiet" - especially on good old NY glare ice

Be aware of your arms - keep them forward of your torso. An arm trailing behind you may unbalance you on ice.

Look into your turns. The sound of ice can distract a person and make one look too closely towards the nose of the board. Put earplugs in to deaden the sound of scraping ice. It might help to concentrate your senses. Just don't drown out all sound.

At the top of the run, grab your balls with one hand and beat your chest with the other like a wild silverback gorilla. Tell the mountain "I'm coming, do not f@$k with me."

just sayin

[queequeg]

How do racers deal with this deficit then?

PS: I'm no lightweight, I'm 230 lbs, incase you are thinking something along those lines.

Racers are racers and carvers are carvers. There is some overlap but generally - racers and carvers have very different objectives. Racers have no interest in getting low (if by low you mean dragging body parts in the snow) whatsoever - they want to find the fastest line down the course. Carvers have little interest in getting down the mountain as fast as possible: they want to make lots of sweet laid out turns.

Otherwise: What ErikJ said. Your stance could be the limiting factor. You may need to do some experimenting. If your stance is dialed in you should be able to stand up comfortably, be able to jam your rear knee into the back of your front knee (though you don't want to ride like that) and you should be able to sit back and get your ass to touch your rear boot.

Otherwise: I've noticed that as a boot gets smaller in size, so does it seem to get stiffer and 24.5 is on the small side. I would definitely look into getting a BTS.

[Knowfish]

"If your stance is dialed in you should be able to stand up comfortably, be able to jam your rear knee into the back of your front knee (though you don't want to ride like that) and you should be able to sit back and get your ass to touch your rear boot."


That there is some of the best hardboot advise I have read!

[WASMAN]

lafcadio and noir, you should come out to Holimont in EVL one of these times. Good smaller group of carvers we ride with there every weekend. (except for next couple weeks when we will be laying it out in Aspen at SES!!!!)

[NoirX252]

lafcadio and noir, you should come out to Holimont in EVL one of these times. Good smaller group of carvers we ride with there every weekend. (except for next couple weeks when we will be laying it out in Aspen at SES!!!!)

Are you or do you know any carvers who used to frequent Kissing Bridge last year? I saw them every wednesday morning.

[Ian M]

At the top of the run, grab your balls with one hand and beat your chest with the other like a wild silverback gorilla. Tell the mountain "I'm coming, do not f@$k with me."

FUNNIEST.. ADVICE.. EVER . Love it.

[Ian M]

PS: the "low" I was referring to in this topic was edge angle, but I am very interested on how to bend my knees more in stiff boots too.

Laying out EC-style carves on ice is not something I've seen much. If you can find a way to achieve more knee bend without softening your boot, I'd like to know!

"If your stance is dialed in you should be able to stand up comfortably, be able to jam your rear knee into the back of your front knee (though you don't want to ride like that) and you should be able to sit back and get your ass to touch your rear boot."

That there is some of the best hardboot advise I have read!

+1. This vertical mobility is really important, IMHO.

Cheers!

[corey_dyck]

There are limits to what some snow/ice can support. If there isn't enough grip, you can't get as low. I've been on ice where there was no chance of getting my butt a foot off the ground.

[lowrider]

There is some benifit using a plate on icy condition as it distributes weight to the edge of the board differently than riding the board without.Trial and error is the best way to determine it's advantage. This years conditions may warrant the investment as it doesn't look like things are going to improve any time soon. Eces is the best opportunity you will have to experiment with plates and riders with experience there to help explain it to you. Sharp edges and a butt pad should be your first priority.

[Bobby Buggs]

Racers are racers and carvers are carvers. There is some overlap but generally - racers and carvers have very different objectives. Racers have no interest in getting low (if by low you mean dragging body parts in the snow) whatsoever - they want to find the fastest line down the course. Carvers have little interest in getting down the mountain as fast as possible: they want to make lots of sweet laid out turns.

Sums it up right there

[NoirX252]

Hard ice/granular today, for the HELL of it I tried literally diving where the nose of the board is.. like I wanted to snap my board, INSTANT breakthrough. I have never before trenched so deep on the hard stuff. In fact I have a problem...
The 12m sidecut turns around so fast I'm at stall speeds for my toeside

Traverse across, drop down into heelside, butt dragging on ice, in about a second or less... the turn is over...

1. Anyone here have a problem committing totally to toeside? I tried traversing on heel and dropping into toe... my knees dont' touch the ice immediately compared to my hips/butt touching the ice immediately on heelside, I tend to just "lose my ballance" going into toeside that fast... EC'ing on this stuff with some chatter on toeside is no problem for me strangely (not cheating/bending over).
2. this breakthrough occured on less than optimal angles for my foot size... 24.5 boots on a 18cm board angles were like 62/60, underhang, I can realistically put them into the low 40's and I won't boot out until about 70 degrees of tilt...

I have a feeling with AF700's and td1's, higher angles are better? or should I just bump them down to 51/48?
3. any ways to switch edges faster on a laid over turn? or is the only available method to not lean it over that much? The turn ends REALLY fast, like my body gets left behind if I don't actively keep up.
I'm using gilmour bias.