new member ,, with a few general Q,s

[ballistic]

Hey nice forum. i have a few q,s if i may. I want to improve my carving skills but not ready to go hardboot. I,ll prolly rent/tryout someday, but for now my focus is freeriding. i did read your faq section. I love watching extreme carve youtube videos. Well, heres my profile and objectives. If someone could kindly make some recommendations.

Me- 48 yrs old, started boarding 3 yrs ago, done 30 days each season. 5'10", 210lbs.
Freerider, advanced level, no park for me, but i bomb the whole mtn, blacks, double blacks sometimes. My setups: custom x 164, supermodel x 164 with co2 bindinds/driver x boots. My fave boots are my new k2 T1 db. About as stiff as driver x.
Also a banana magic and a fish ltd. For goofing off and deep pow.

Sooooo........ if i get astiffer board like coiler or prior will my soft boots and co2's be ok with that?. This is what i want to try and see if it will allow me to carve better ie lean it over further. Right now i feel i overpower my custom x pretty easy, after all i am 210lbs.

[leeho730]

You might want to try Donek. Sean is very knowledgeable in softboot carving and can make custom board for you as well. I'm getting my carbon incline 160 this week

[kieran]

incline if you like to go backwards. razor if you like getting funny looks.

i loaned my razor out to a softbooter earlier this year, and their choice comment was 'crap, this thing is stiff! how are you supposed to skid it?'

[nurse ben]

Not to be a complete butt...

But, why get a carving board to check out carving only to find that you will want hardboots and plates? Why not just get some hardboots and bindings and use them on an existing board? Any board will carve.

I just came back to boarding, took a long break to ski, went straight to hard boots, but stayed with stiffer freeride boards, works great, caving is far more powerful and controlled than in soft boots, but I can still enjoy riding the whole mountain.

Isn't that Burton Custom X pretty stiff?

A cheap way to go hardbooting: Modify some used AT ski boots and buy some used plates. I have only $200 and some sweat equity in my Scarpa TX and Nidecker Freecarve.

Of course I ugraded pretty quickly to some UPZ and SnowPros

I have a 16yo son, he rides stiffer soft boots/bindings on big/stiff all mtn boards. I "made" him ride my hard boot set up using the same board he was using as a soft boot carver. He struggled with the set up at first (one day), but then he got it and can now lay down carves like he never could with soft boots.

Oh, and I'm your size, riding a Prior MFR 168W.

Just my 0.02$

[Ernie00]

Depeding where you are you might be able to get equipment from a member here. Lots of us have spare board, boots and board that we can lend to people for trying.

[nurse ben]

http://cgi.ebay.com/DONEK-razor-G-FO...item2312760f5a

Finding an all mtn board for soft boot carving is tricky, you'll want something that has a big SCR than the typical twin twip that K2, Burton, etc... are selling.

When I was asking similar questions for my son, I was told to look for an SCR of ~10m. I ended up getting him a 166 Hammer, which is a stif pow board, worked great for him as he's a lightweight.

My Prior MFR has an SCR ~10, just ordered a Rossignl Experience MW which has a ~10 SCR as well.

If you were to look for a big mountain board, that might work for carving as well as expand your quiver: Tanker, Glissade.

The issue with carving soft boots is that as you increase your angle, you'll decrease your effective edging; i.e. soft boots work best at lower angles, whereas hard boots work best at higher angles.

Now I'm a long way from being an expert, but I just came from where you're at now, so this is just dem my experience, but I found that even the softest hard boot is going to be much stiffer than a stiffy soft boot set up.

You can get older used boots for not much $$, use your soft boot liners to get a nice fit, then pick up some used bindings, call ALL Board Sports in Boulder and see if there are any more Nidecker Freecarves available ($100), or get snow SnowPros ($200): http://www.upzboots.com/bindings.html

[b0ardski]

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulleti...archid=1706050

Here's a couple older threads with lots of info and opinions, good reading for comparisons. Do a search for "soft boot carving" and you'll find lots of info.
This excerpt gives an idea of the differences between softer hardshells vs stiff softies on a "regular shaped" all mt board.


"comparison
I did a direct comparison last season on a 173 x 25 Idendity all mountain soft(compared to alpine) board between new Flows with Burton drivers, new BurtonSI with Mojos at 25*/38* vrs old Nitro stepins with Raichle 124s w/soft flex liners at 28*/40*.
The conditions were rough groom with 1ft of fresh med. dense snow off piste.

I agree that the over all stiffness of these setups was very similar but thats were it ends.
The flow+driver is a great setup as far as laceups go with lots of soft, even lateral flex and starts soft but bottoms out forward flex. (Conventional straps lessen the bottoming out but soften the overall feel IMO). The burton stepins had bit firmer lateral flex (which I like)and softer but more even forward flex.
The highback response on the flows was softer than the burtonSI which was equal to the Raichles w/out BTS. Love the ease of use of the flows but hate the bulk.
On groomer the ride was similar but less responsive with the drivers + flow than the soft HB+ plates.
In the uneven early season pow, I found it much easier to stuff the nose and go over the handle bars with the excess lateral flex of the drivers where the stiffer plate setup forced the board through and kept it underneath me. The softies carved the groom just fine but the more even flex and better response of the raichles ruled on and off piste.

Comfort of the molded liners in the raichles was way better than the drivers with custom foot beds Due to the crushing effect of any strap binding. The burton SI was more comfy than the drivers+flow but my ankles/feet got tired and painful much quicker than in the HBs due to shell deformation and the extra ankle strength reguired to drive soft boots.

In summary, since don't do park or tweak airs, I find no need drag out a secondary system that has less durability and response with more bulk, fuss factor and foot pain than the simple stepin system, usable for stiff skinny race, or soft wide powder boards, that I've been using for well over a decade with no breakage issues.

Hard setups can and will over power soft freeride boards if you drive them too hard. But like cars, I'd rather drive one that's over-powered than under-powered."

Welcome to the never ending search for the perfect turn Ballistic, you've come to the right place

I agree with Ben that you may want to try some cheap hard shells (you can usually get back most of what you paid if you don't like them), or borrow some gear from a "local" hardbooter.
That g-force on ebay would be good to try with softies and use w/Hardboots.

[Gcarve]

I want to improve my carving skills but not ready to go hardboot. I,ll prolly rent/tryout someday, but for now my focus is freeriding. i did read your faq section. I love watching extreme carve youtube videos. Well, heres my profile and objectives. If someone could kindly make some recommendations.

Sooooo........ if i get astiffer board like coiler or prior will my soft boots and co2's be ok with that?. This is what i want to try and see if it will allow me to carve better ie lean it over further.

First, welcome to BOL. I'd recommend demo'ing a few boards. Donek, Coiler, or Prior are just some of the great choices for you to consider.
I'll submit that you should try HB'ing, plates and a true carving board, you just might find that it is incredible fun! Sure, you can carve on a softboot setup, but why not at least do yourself a favor, and try hardboots. After all, if you don't do it this year, it'll just be another year until you do.

[SEJ]

Welcome to BOL
Look for a used Prior 4WD. Great all mountain carver and will work with a stiff soft boot set up if you're aggressive enough. That's a 169 in my avitar

[BlueB]

What's the point getting a hardboot specific board for soft boots? ATV would work much better with softies, just as few other boards mentioned earlier. I'll throw in a few other ones:
Steepwater
Elan Vertigo
3800
Most of BX boards

If small footed:
Nidecker Proto
F2 ElDiablo/Vantage
SG Cult
maybe Speed wide...

[Steve Prokopiw]

I would say what some have already said about just do it right the first time and try hardboots too,but I have seen and currently know a couple of fantastic softboot carvers.

One of them made my board and his name is Abel Davis of Diablo Composites in Bend, Oregon.I haven't heard from them in some time and I don't know if they are currently making boards,but to see him ride his own creations on softboots makes a great case for the feasibility of high performance softbooting.

[Jim Callen]

[QUOTE=nurse ben;349
But, why get a carving board to check out carving only to find that you will want hardboots and plates? Why not just get some hardboots and bindings and use them on an existing board? Any board will carve.
[/QUOTE]

Beware: many soft boot boards are dicey at best with hardboots. Inserts will rip out very easily from a board not built to handle the stres caused by plate bindings...

[ballistic]

hey thanks for all the replys. I must say.. i dont know that much about "softbooting", hardbooting, or carving boards in general. Just from having lurked hear for a couple days and rad some of the posts.... seen a few videos.

Based on the majority of the responses i got so far... why dont i just get (or try) a hardboot setup on day one.. in order to get a true sense of what carving is all about. Maybe i will.. i'm not opposed to that.

Is the following characterizations true or false? its what i have gathered from casual reading so far. Not that anyone has specifically said this, but in a GENERAL way this is what i suspect:

-- my current setup-- driver x boots, custom x board with CO2 bindings will only allow very basic carving,, perhaps a 2 on a scale out of 10

--if i get a "alpine" board... whichever one best suited for softbooting to use with my same boots/bindings... will allow "better"/more aggressive/deeper carves.. perhaps 4 out of 10.

--full hardboot setup with a suitable board to match will allow jawdropping carves... a beginner like me can prolly start at 5 out of 10 and potentially progress all the way to 10/10.

--full hardboot setup will be AWESOME for carving... but in all honesty kind of lame for buzzing thru tight trees, deep pow, hitting jumps.

-- even an expert hardboot carver, if using my current setup, could never squeeze more performance than maybe a 4 or 5 out of 10.

are these statements fair?

Again... i think what kind of appeals to me is the idea of "free carving". If i understand the concept it means i can still hammer the whole mountain (ok not the park) and not be limited to carving groomers only.

[BlueB]

I'd say too much generalisation...
Just as you can optimise a soft boot setup for carving, but 90% of people do not, you could optimise a hard boot setup for freeriding, but 90% of people do not...
On our mountain, I know a softbooter who can carve a circle and another one who easilly outcarves me on flatter runs. I also know a hardbooter who pretty much kills everyone else in trees. From my side (hard boots), I kill 95% of boarders and 80% of skiers in moguls, while I outride 99% of boarders in deep open pow... I do straight airs and pipe too, but nothing fancy.

As for your other dillema, I'd say you can get more performance and versatillity out of plates on freeride board, then softies on alp[ine board designed for h/boots.
But, you have good softie setups already, why not just get a dedicated carving setup for hero days?

[nurse ben]

Okay, so you know how you have a "stiff" soft boot set up?

Well, you can get stiff hard boot set ups AND soft hard boots set ups.

There are people who do soft boot carving, they use the stiffest soft boots and bindings they can find (as you've done), then pick a board that is narrower than a AM board, but wide enough to maintain lower angles (Prior ATV 23.5cm waist).

This is a carving forum, so most folks are into carving piste, which means riding narrow boards (17-19cm waist), stiff boots, higher anglkes, etc... Some of them ride soft boots for off piste, but some also ride hard boots off piste and back country.

I'm not a carver, at least not yet, so my gradually growing quiver is still limited to directional twin AM snowboards like the Prior MFR, which is a stiffer all mtn board with some set back.

So, if you're looking for a hard boot set up that'll still be usable for pow, bumps, trees, etc... you should probably look at softer hard boots, bindings that have some flex, and then pick boards that suit your needs.

I assume that you're looking for something better than your current setup or you woudln't be on this forum, so if you just want something that'll carve piste better than what you have, you can get a soft boot carver like the one I linked by Donek. But, that means using your existing boots and bindings, and it means you're stuck with a soft boot carving board.

The second way to go, which is what I would suggest, is to get some worn out hard boots that are "softened" and some used plates, then mount them on your existing board(s) and see if it makes a difference. This is what I did and it's a great choice for all mtn riding and it carves quite nicely. The advantage of this path is that a true carving board is an easy next step.

You're not going to be able to pick up a carving board and run it with your soft boot set up because your angles will be to high and that won't work so well with soft boots.

This is what I just finished setting up, boots are mondo mondo 28, angles are 40/45, board is 26cm wide:



on these:


on this:

[nurse ben]

Beware: many soft boot boards are dicey at best with hardboots. Inserts will rip out very easily from a board not built to handle the stres caused by plate bindings...

Yeah, well there's that

Having just started back on boarding and going straight to hard boots, I think there is some struggle with transitioning, esp in terms of body position (comfort) and technique. I'm a skier, so for me I found a lot more similarities to skiing than I do to snowboarding, esp in intiating turns, forbody pressure, etc...

My son started hardbooting this summer along side me and he had a much harder time adjusting, even though he's a core boarder and already runs a stiffer soft boot set up. If he's looking to cross over, it's worth playing with hardboots and plates on a board he already knows, then he adjust angles, see if hard boots make a dsifference on his daily ride.

I'm going to get a narrower board, probably not something as narrow as 17, or even 19, but certainly 20-21, just so I can carve on piste like I already do on my tele gear. I ski dual titanal expert slalom ski on tele and at 200# I can kill the hill. If I get to that point with boarding, then I'll bump to stiffer boots, some beefier bindings, run steeper angle, and get a narrow metal board.

[ballistic]

)urse ben, i like your suggestions and approach ,, used hard boots/bindings an try em on my custom x. I had a season pass at cypress last season (and got this seasons already)
I saw some carvers there couple times and at grouse mt. Man its a rare sight.. not many of u guys. How aboiut whistler.. im only an hour drive away.. any rentals up there? Maybe thats what i should do first.

[b0ardski]

BlueB freguents Cypress, he'll hook you up with gear to try.

-- my current setup-- driver x boots, custom x board with CO2 bindings will only allow very basic carving,, perhaps a 2 on a scale out of 10
The drivers/T1s w/co2s on a stiffer regular camber board will get you to a 5/10.
turn the angles forward to 20*r/35*f and practice the "norm" from Jack's article

--if i get a "alpine" board... whichever one best suited for softbooting to use with my same boots/bindings... will allow "better"/more aggressive/deeper carves.. perhaps 4 out of 10.
A wider alpine like some suggested above by others will get you to 6-7 with good technique on the soft gear you have.

--full hardboot setup with a suitable board to match will allow jawdropping carves... a beginner like me can prolly start at 5 out of 10 and potentially progress all the way to 10/10.
yes

--full hardboot setup will be AWESOME for carving... but in all honesty kind of lame for buzzing thru tight trees, deep pow, hitting jumps.
that g-force or a donek axis, prior atv will rock in the trees, bumps and pow with the stiff softies you have, or a softer hardboot/binding set up.

-- even an expert hardboot carver, if using my current setup, could never squeeze more performance than maybe a 4 or 5 out of 10.
Most of the vetran carvers on this forum can and do rip high angle carves on those boots/binders but will fold that squishy banana like an over cooked noodle.

are these statements fair?

Again... i think what kind of appeals to me is the idea of "free carving". If i understand the concept it means i can still hammer the whole mountain (ok not the park) and not be limited to carving groomers only.

Upgrade the board, turn up the angles and start shopping around for some freecarving (softer) hard boots and flexy plates

In my comparison above (post #7) I was on this board,

the one on the left, it carves pretty good for all glass powder board; it's older brother is identical shape but has full length carbon stringers which made it better for carving til I cracked the core spinning off a stump.
I'm 49, started boarding over 20yrs ago.

[slopestar]

I think I as well as many other riders fall into this category. I struggle with every turn and every run up the lift or off piste. I want my board to go everywhere at anytime. I don't want a quiver, I want a quiver killer. I think there is a happy medium. The advice given here as well as the acceptance of those that have offered advice is commendable and accurate. I am setting up a an old bx deck as my dedicated hardboot carver but plan to set up very close to my freestyle angles and gradually ramp the angles until I find that sweet spot. Then into different boards to find where in the freeride - straight up alpine spectrum I stand. Enjoy the ride however you get down the mountain. Just remember, no skidding!

[snowboardfast]

The only way to find out if you will like hardboots and plates will be to ride them. I went back and forth from both setups for a while after riding hardboots for a long time and decided that I don't want to bother with softboots at all anymore. I like alpine boards and hardboots better for me and I am not the best carver on the hill but it does not matter to me. I ride hardboots all mountain but I do not ride trees. I ride several different boards depending on what I want to do and or conditions but you can get by with an all mountain alpine board if you want to. You can do laid out turns on almost any board if you are good enough either hard or soft boots although I think ec carving would be better in hard boots. I do not ec due to my shoulders and have a lot of fun without doing so. I went to hard boots years ago because I like the angled stances and the foot comfort and better edgehold. Softbooots and bindings are way better than they were years ago but I still have the problem with foot pain no matter what boot or binding I have tried and I have tried a lot of things. Ec stands for extreme carving which is doing fully laid out turns but again not for me. Give an alpine board and boots a try next season-You might just like it? I find that most people that ride softboots that ask me about my gear are afraid to try hardboots probably not you though.

[philw]

On the OP, I'm not sure what I'd do. I guess I'd try out as much stuff as I could and then throw some money at it. Not sure of location but most of us will have old gear you could borrow, and if you can get to Whistler (say) then Prior will demo gear for a reasonable day rate I think. On boots you may just have to take the plunge, which is what, £400 + £150 for bindings, so about the same in UK terms as a standard soft-boot board costs here.

For me there's no such thing as one board for everything - bottomless powder is very different from hard pack and one board will not handle both excellently. In this case then I'd probably worry only about piste to start with, as that's where you're going to find the most benefit from hard gear.

I mostly ride trees in back country powder on boards designed for soft booters. It's not a competition, but in the trees hard boots are very hard to beat. With soft boot boards I've found zero problems, and I've ridden most powder boards. There are two things which prevent me riding some softie boards:

• Some Salomon boards have huge minimum stance widths, which are impossible to ride with hard boots. The Sick Stick is rideable but lots aren't.
• Pre 2010-2011 Burton EST boards aren't sensibly usable with hard bindings as you can't mount them. From that year on there's no problem (although some assembly is required - google for it).

So if you do get hard boots/bindings then you need to check you can set a comfortable stance on whatever your board may be. Obviously some soft boot boards (eg park boards) are just unsuitable; I know only about powder boards, all of which work fine with the above exceptions.

I would add that as powder boards are generally wide, I would not want to ride them on piste with hard boots as my angles (50) are too steep. So (say) a soft boot rider would enjoy the old Malolo on piste, in hard boots that would not be so good. See my second point; it may be that hard boots with their precision make it harder to achieve the "one board does all" than softies.

Every year I try to break snowboards; in twenty-odd seasons in powder I've broken one (race) board's nose and one of my ankles. I have seen no issues there, never had anyone as much as raise an eyebrow in a rental shop etc.

[BlueB]

)urse ben, i like your suggestions and approach ,, used hard boots/bindings an try em on my custom x. I had a season pass at cypress last season (and got this seasons already)
I saw some carvers there couple times and at grouse mt. Man its a rare sight.. not many of u guys. How aboiut whistler.. im only an hour drive away.. any rentals up there? Maybe thats what i should do first.

Hell, yeah!
I teach at Cypress! There is a pretty healthy carving scene in vancvouver, better then in Whistler, I'd say. Another 7-8 Bomber members ride the local Van mountains, mostly Cypress: CarvingScooby, Tennorman, Ruwi, Crucible, Cusin of Beagle... There are few others who don't post on Bomber.

I have a garage full of boards, alpine and freeride, suitable for plates, that you can try. No problem for the bindings either. Boots, depending on your mondo size...

[Gcarve]

For me there's no such thing as one board for everything - bottomless powder is very different from hard pack and one board will not handle both excellently.

I agree. I know there are some on BOL that say one board can do it all, and for some amazing athletes it is probably possible to extreme carve, rule park and pipe, and rip bottomless pow on the same board. For me it just seems logical to have specific boards for specific situations or conditions.

[BlueB]

Oh, almost forgot, check the Cypress Diaries:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=31521
Lots of pics, local info, gear/technique discussion, etc.
There's one for every season...

[scrapster]

Oh man, you're all set if you ride at Cypress. Consider yourself lucky--not many folks have access to all the wealth of alpine knowledge and equipment out in those parts.

A few things to consider about your current setup--do you know the year of your Driver X's? Burton had one year recently (I think it was 2010) where they substantially softened the boot. They didn't perform anything like they should. Your K2's should be good and stiff though.

Second, what type of angles are you riding? Sometimes it helps to set up a more aggressive forward stance than you're used to. You can push softies up to around 40 degrees, especially in front. That will give you a little alpine flavor and start getting your body used to a new position.

Lastly, although your Custom X may be a stiffer freeride board (and I'm not sure if it's stiff both lengthwise and torsionally), stiffness isn't everything. True carving boards also have a much greater effective edge. For example, at 160cm the Custom X has 125cm of edge. My 160 Donek softy carver has 139cm. It makes a big difference. Not many freeride boards will have an edge like that. Still, I've found a few and ridden them with plates and HB's, including the Prior MFR, Steepwater Steep and Arbor A Frame. They work, but the transition from edge to edge on a wide board can feel ponderous.

Good luck! And welcome to Bomber!

[ballistic]

Hell, yeah!
I teach at Cypress! There is a pretty healthy carving scene in vancvouver, better then in Whistler, I'd say. Another 7-8 Bomber members ride the local Van mountains, mostly Cypress: CarvingScooby, Tennorman, Ruwi, Crucible, Cusin of Beagle... There are few others who don't post on Bomber.

I have a garage full of boards, alpine and freeride, suitable for plates, that you can try. No problem for the bindings either. Boots, depending on your mondo size...

hey thanks for the offer.. i'll have to meet up with you guys ,,, and see what this carving scene ye speak of is all about. I'm SZ 9 or 9.5 dont know my mondo size. I'm thinking it would even be fun to following some of you guys and get a close look at what a day on the mtn is for hardbooters. So many you guys at cypress?? man i had no idea. I logged about 30 days last season mostly at cypress.. it was a great season.

i totally agree with the sentiments that its not necessary to have only one board. I usually have at least 3 or 4. I oftn bring 2 boards in my truck up the mtn so i can switch things up when/if needed. The comment to focus on getting a setup for mainly groomers makes perfect sense.

driver X boots, i have had 2009, 2010 and 2011 but i sold the 2011 before using them. Its true, older driverx boots stiffer... HOWEVER... the 2011 had a plastic tongue stiffener thing u could put in or remove which seemed promising but like i say, i did not ride those boots. My K2 T1 Db with thier intuition liners and superior heel hold.. i like them better. I hope burton fixes thier flaccid boots You know, driver x are maybe ok for lighter riders, but me at 215lb. uh... no.

[ballistic]

Oh yeah, my angles are 15 fr, zero rear. I tried plus 5 rear couple times and liked it but zero felt stronger or more agile or something.

[BlueB]

Right, I bring minimum of 2 boards every time too, plus the one or 2 parked at instructors shed. Horses for courses.

With more forward angle your heel side would feel better and you'll get lower without "toilet seat". Softies can be pushed to about 40/20 forward stance, after that you start to loose the latteral support. Some people add 3rd strap asnd go 45/45, but then you might ride h/boots as well.

Meet some of the guys: Rod "Edgy", Boris "BlueB", Tony "Cousin of Beagle", Doug "Tenorman", Roy "Carving Scooby"


9, 9.5 shoe... I can put my head on the block you'd be about 26-26.5 mondo, in which case I'd have boots. Stand barefoot, heel against the wall, mark the longest toe to the floor, measure in cm = mondo size.

Get in touch at the beggining of the winter and we'll set you up.

[Jack Michaud]

Welcome, Ballistic! Some good info here, but for the love of god, do not use ski poles.

[b0ardski]

No respect for muggles around here


If I ran 90*/90* binding angles with 0 stance it'd be OK

Jacks right, only accomplished skiers should use poles.