Karl Heelside

[Jack Michaud]

word.

[Ray]

Jack, not sure I understand, what do you mean?

[kieran]

Jack, not sure I understand, what do you mean?

benjamin karl's curves give jack wood.
or maybe it's his carves. what an odd typo.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, not sure I understand, what do you mean?

great form.

[lowrider]

Good form but i thought it was the mitts !

[colintkemp]

If I let my eyes go, not focusing on anything in particular, I see a pair of worn down mitts. Is that weird? What do others see?

[pow4ever]

nice form indeed.

What plate is that? SG plate is my guess?

--
David

[KingCrimson]

nice form indeed.

What plate is that? SG plate is my guess?

--
David

The infamously stiff Karl-Plate. One of the first Apex-style plates..

Funny how it took less than a year for the brand Apex to become genericized.

[RideGuy]

I'm really not a fan of the knees pushed together. I had a bad habit like that 15 years ago. A fellow instructor would yell at me "get your knees apart you virgin" (if your reading this, thanks Adam!).

I like this heelside more better:

[lowrider]

Do results trump form ? I prefer Kiley style of skiing but the new bowlegged cowboy style seems to be winning with shaped skis. Knees together knees apart look at the results.

[RideGuy]

The thread is about form, not results.

Even if it was about results vs form, I don't see any other racers that tuck the back leg in like Karl does. I certainly would not train someone new to alpine to ride like that. It obviously works (very well) for some though.

[KingCrimson]

I'm really not a fan of the knees pushed together. I had a bad habit like that 15 years ago. A fellow instructor would yell at me "get your knees apart you virgin" (if your reading this, thanks Adam!).

I like this heelside more better:

Funny to hear I'm not the only one who gets sexually harassed for riding like that....

I think it takes a pile of outward cant on the back foot to ride that closed and still keep the knees divergent when he's essentially leaning on his back ankle like that.

[BlueB]

I'm really not a fan of the knees pushed together. I had a bad habit like that 15 years ago. A fellow instructor would yell at me "get your knees apart you virgin" (if your reading this, thanks Adam!).

Adam Gardner? One of the best riders I had pleasure to ride with!

Don't know... To me, knees together means that you activelly push them both inward. If you start the turn by driving the front knee, then finish by follow up with the rear while just standing on the front heel, you end up looking like Karl in the pic. Still not the knee together technique.
Then, few people mentioned that modern race technique is more about pressure on the heels and toes, rather then knee drive.

A former racer lady schooled me yesterday about driving the knees more, especially the front one, which I sometimes neglect past the initiation. In the pics, one can see Karen driving the front knee a lot more. As for my pic, 0 canting, only lift in the bindings, yet knees still appart.

[Kab]

Haha - I love that you wrote I 'schooled' you about the knee technique B! Something I'd been teaching for years finally stuck with me this day - still wondering why I can't get over as far as you guys but wondering how far in the back seat this might take you? I'm busy critiquing style here from the great photo you guys took of me on this epic booter-bluebird-hero day - wondering if this info might help anyone without a racing background. Good knee form - my back knee is actually getting pushed out in the opposite direction to the front, to make for a good cowboy stance (centers weight on board and actually bends the board that little bit extra - try this while just sitting in the snow to see what it does to the board. You can really feel the board transition faster from toe to heel...), but my shoulders could be a bit more parallel to the terrain, and I could certainly stand up more - used to have the 'bent at the waist' problem back in racing days while trying to get lower all the time.. had one coach fix that for me, but it means no butt-dragging or tummy-shots!
Conclusion - left arm could be lower to bring center of gravity more over heel-edge of board, less bend at the waist. Otherwise, dragging anything generally screws up technique, but sometimes, who cares!!

[Kab]

I'm really not a fan of the knees pushed together. I had a bad habit like that 15 years ago. A fellow instructor would yell at me "get your knees apart you virgin" (if your reading this, thanks Adam!).

I like this heelside more better:

Check out this heelside!! What's cool to note is that whomever this is (?), if you'll notice, is angulating like crazy, super early, body downhill of his board. That means he likely started his turn before crossing the fall line which creates a helluva lot of speed when he consequently exits the turn. I might get picky and say his left hand crossed the board, and his shoulders aren't perfect, but this is a beautiful turn Also something to note - there are a lot of Euro's still cranking the knees together, if you've ever followed the WC circuit or were at the Olympics last year. Seems to only work if you have the strength to keep from getting too far into the back seat exiting the turn.

[BlueB]

...whomever this is (?), if you'll notice, is angulating like crazy,

Meet JJ Anderson, the Olympic Champion

I could never figure out that back knee in the opposite direction thing (heelside)... I always thought that "cowboy" knees thing is mostly for sofboots, where you need to add extra pressure to the nose and tail, as the boards are too soft for hi-speed carve. As for me, I tend to have nice hooky finish when I drive the rear knee across the board into the turn. I also can do a good turn by just pressing on the heel. However, when I drive in the oposite direction, it opens my hips to the fall line - the last thing I want. But that's just me...
Sitting on the snow... Knees actively pushing together bends the board more, but off-loads the tip and tail. Actively appart, loads the nose and tail, but flattens the mid section of the board.

[Kab]

LOL, you're right, that is Jasey! I think it was his mouth - he looks like one of the popular Euro guys I remember seeing in pics from way back. I'm just going through all my videos from the Olympics on FB, where I was just behind the crash pads at the back of the finish corral for Jasey's GM run and they're gone with the latest FB update... if I can find them, I'll post this video.
I'll have to think about your comments about loading tip & tail vs. bending the board more - perhaps you can control the shape of your turn with knee movement, depending on if you're early, late or just in time for the next gate.

[KingCrimson]

I think in regards to racing in 2011, all those movements shouldn't be considered.

Apex plates don't let you do it, and even if you're riding "naked" it makes it a lot harder to ride.

[Jack Michaud]

The infamously stiff Karl-Plate. One of the first Apex-style plates..

Funny how it took less than a year for the brand Apex to become genericized.

The way I've heard it is that Karl was the first with the "isocline" design, and the Apex is derived from it (as is the Boiler, Donek, etc). I'm pretty sure we should be calling them Karl-style plates, not Apex-style.

I'm really not a fan of the knees pushed together. I had a bad habit like that 15 years ago. A fellow instructor would yell at me "get your knees apart you virgin" (if your reading this, thanks Adam!).

I was more focused on the nice upright torso and perfectly level shoulders. I don't think his knees are together too much.

As long as we are putting up our own pics...



(please disregard the hat and borrowed goggles - I left my helmet and goggles at the house that day! )

[bschurman]

(please disregard the hat and borrowed goggles - I left my helmet and goggles at the house that day! )

But not that mean overbite.

[BlueB]

Ok, we forgive you the hat for the sake of great pic
Yeah, I agree on Karl's shoulders - perfectly level.

KC,
From my experience with the plate, yes, you can not affect the flex of the tail or nose just by knee drive (for obvious reasons). However, the board can be tilted higher on the edge by driving the knees across the board into the direction of the turn. I found the heel sides really easy to screw up when doing this.

[Jack Michaud]

But not that mean overbite.

dude that overbite is fierce!

[jtslalom]

If I let my eyes go, not focusing on anything in particular, I see a pair of worn down mitts. Is that weird? What do others see?

Wow, thats funny because that was the first thing that I noticed and I didn't even let my eyes go. Duct tape will help. Most of my snowboard apparel is made up of it.

[KingCrimson]

Haha - I love that you wrote I 'schooled' you about the knee technique B! Something I'd been teaching for years finally stuck with me this day - still wondering why I can't get over as far as you guys but wondering how far in the back seat this might take you? I'm busy critiquing style here from the great photo you guys took of me on this epic booter-bluebird-hero day - wondering if this info might help anyone without a racing background. Good knee form - my back knee is actually getting pushed out in the opposite direction to the front, to make for a good cowboy stance (centers weight on board and actually bends the board that little bit extra - try this while just sitting in the snow to see what it does to the board. You can really feel the board transition faster from toe to heel...), but my shoulders could be a bit more parallel to the terrain, and I could certainly stand up more - used to have the 'bent at the waist' problem back in racing days while trying to get lower all the time.. had one coach fix that for me, but it means no butt-dragging or tummy-shots!
Conclusion - left arm could be lower to bring center of gravity more over heel-edge of board, less bend at the waist. Otherwise, dragging anything generally screws up technique, but sometimes, who cares!!

Your picture helped me a ton yesterday..

Since your pants are tight to your legs and you have the composure of being outside a course, everything is very obvious.

I was already riding with divergent knees, but it wasn't even close to enough. I was at like 18 inches apart in the knees and I spread them even further after looking at your picture, and it worked fantastically carving through slush bumps. I used to get knocked up in the air on heelside in slushy bumps, and the only way I was able to keep carving was natural athletic ability. This is much more fun to have the stability.

T