SG delamination repair?

[evnewsphoto]

Well I heard direct from Sigi, and he said to try the office and ask them, here is what he wrote;

We need the serial number and a photo, then the Quality Control at the factory checks the damage. If it is due to a production default, the board is replaced. The Titanal issue is something else - there are riders who are handling their boards carelessly, so we want to check FIRST.
Concerning the "board sent back" - do you have more specific information? By whom? what board, when? In general the warranty claims are responded rapidly and in most of the cases positively. Just we dont like rumours, I hope you understand.

I guess they missed what happened with jburrill I also wonder what his final outcome was as well since I have hijacked his post? I will wait a few days and see what they say before I drill for T-nuts. Everett

[davekempmeister]

I'm very sorry if I offended anyone. But watching those photos almost made me cry. Awesome board was ruined because of negligence. Using TD1 on such board is stupidity. Those two things are not compatible on long term. Period.

BTW evnewsphoto is not some newbie. According to his words he's been in snowboarding for quite some time. Board was used for gate training/competing and owner was warned about possible breaking by his mates before it has happened. And now the easiest thing is to blame SG poor construction and expect SG (or Sigi himself) "will help out to avoid the negaitive press".

I am (also) SG dealer. Before I sell titanal board I always "interrogate" buyer about other components he's going to use. Why? Simply to avoid such things. Using incompatible components is dangerous for the board and for the rider.

Once again. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I hope lesson was learned and we won't have to see such photos anytime soon.

HAPPY SHREDDING!
match

WTF? this is no apology - you just reitterate your insult and add that, in essence, it's you who is aggrieved just by virtue of looking at photos of the damage and learning of how it came to pass. I did precisely the same thing to a Kessler and was using Catek Polycarbonate spacers along with a large diameter Catek OS1 disk in an effort to prevent just such a scenario. I did not want to use a plate, despite owning a VIST at the time, and plenty were of the opinion that my approach was sound. Well, apparently it wasn't but it never once occurred to me that I should publicly describe them as stupid. Or myself, for that matter. You, on the other hand..............

[evnewsphoto]

Dave, thanks for the support, I think. Good to know that the "spacer" might not have saved me, also interesting that you had a larger disc also. I used Cats once (before they were Cateks) and think Jeff made a good binding also. Was your break round like mine at the inserts (under the disc) or was it along the spacer?
I asked Sigi on Facebook what he thought about my binding combo given that he himself uses Bombers (Sidewinders I believe) I haven't heard back yet given it's middle of the night in Austria I'll let you know if he thinks I am "stupid" also.

[davekempmeister]

Dave, thanks for the support, I think. Good to know that the "spacer" might not have saved me, also interesting that you had a larger disc also. I used Cats once (before they were Cateks) and think Jeff made a good binding also. Was your break round like mine at the inserts (under the disc) or was it along the spacer?
I asked Sigi on Facebook what he thought about my binding combo given that he himself uses Bombers (Sidewinders I believe) I haven't heard back yet given it's middle of the night in Austria I'll let you know if he thinks I am "stupid" also.

the fissure initiated in between the rear inserts, heelside. they were under the disc and i did not see them until the discs were removed at day's end. sorry that you experienced this - it sucks and can happen in almost any scenario (equipment and hardware combo), with any weight rider, in any conditions. obviously it's more likely in some cases and less in others but can happen just the same.

[scrutton]

Really - Kessler + spacer and OS1's and still breakage. What are you supposed to use then - plate minimum?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Really - Kessler + spacer and OS1's and still breakage. What are you supposed to use then - plate minimum?

I think the key points are:

Anything can break
Builders (especially those focusing WC racing) have to balance weight/design parameters with durability.
If I recall correctly Dave K is a big boy.
We were not there when the breakage occurred, it is difficult to recreate the circumstances even when you are there let alone not being there and not seeing it.
Although it is always a bummer to loose a high end favorite/expensive snowboard. Know that it is a part of the process of being an alpine rider and pushing your limits.
Be glad you were not hurt.
Enjoy!

[evnewsphoto]

Yeah I guess it can "just happen." The board I had before and hope to get back was an Oxygen Proton and it had a Titanal butterfly on the top of the board below the top sheet with a cap on the sides, I think this is probably a better constuction method and held up fine with my TD1s. I only went to the SG because I love my 175 so much and did notice a slight difference when switching back and forth due to the lack of a decambered nose on the Oxygen and maybe the sidecut geometry (varible on SG versus fixed on Proton). I think Sigi should think about caping in the Titanal or put a layer of fiberglass or something between the core, the titanal and the topsheet, afterall so many people are using plates what's another layer? Or maybe build in a reforcement around the inserts. I was shocked that one of my inserts just fell out at some point, there's an open hole there now, it's probably sitting on Chute (the trail) at Eldora where I was training Slalom on Saturday. I think these boards (SGs and Kesslers) are amazing and own the podiums for sure, but there has to be a stronger way to get the snap of titanal without the fragile topsheet and inserts, like I said Oxygen figured it out in 2008. I should email Sean Martin and ask him what he's doing with the Revs to keep them from breaking, I almost bought one of those instead and I like Sean a lot, my GS board before the SG was a Donek.

[davekempmeister]

I think the key points are:

Anything can break
Builders (especially those focusing WC racing) have to balance weight/design parameters with durability.
If I recall correctly Dave K is a big boy.
We were not there when the breakage occurred, it is difficult to recreate the circumstances even when you are there let alone not being there and not seeing it.
Although it is always a bummer to loose a high end favorite/expensive snowboard. Know that it is a part of the process of being an alpine rider and pushing your limits.
Be glad you were not hurt.
Enjoy!

Bryan is correct on every point. I only use my case as an example and less a commentary. I bought another Kessler. They are magical, IMO.

[Bordy]

I may have been riding for 25 years but this is only the second SG I have bought and had no problems with the other board. I did not buy it at a dealer I bought direct from a SG sponsered rider who got ot direct from Sigi. I am not stupid but I also didn't look into past problems, that is my fault. I love the boards but feel they should hold up better. Everett

The TD1 binding was made to be used on stiff, fiberglass race boards well before metal boards were out. Many manufactors had insert falure issues during the full metal binding days. The fault doesn't lie in the board, or its inserts. to ride SL on TD1s with a metal board is a the issue. It will take more then risers to offset the massive tourge and leverage the td1 makes on inserts. I would consider looking towards other racers in the us to see what their current binding/metal board set ups are.

You are mixing binding tech from the mid 90s with gear from 2012, that a twenty year gap... A lot has changed.... I am glad you didn't have a, on the hill falure that caused a injury..

On the world level under world cup athletes feet the faliure rate of SG inserts is no less or greater then other manufactors.

Any talented carver would have the same results with the board binding combo you have unfortunatlly choosen, Better luck in the future.

BB

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Good to hear from you Bordy!! Nicely put my friend!!!

[match2002]

Very precise explanation Bordy, I couldn't agree more.

match

[evnewsphoto]

So I am supposed to throw away the best bindings I ever had and use something flimsy that I'll be snapping bails on once a month? I also don't feel like shelling out $700 for 2 new bindings (TD 3s) or ride an older board. Some riders use stiff boots and soft bindings, or stiff plates with soft bindings, I have found stiff bindings with loose/softer boots works best for me. I don't think my set up is that extreme and I think there has to be a solution. I also have begun to realize my failure was the inserts pulling out from the core, not the Titanal breaking, that happened after the inserts lifted out of the core. The damning thing is the fact that one of the inserts fell out, that is something wrong with the core, not the top sheet and titanal. I am waiting to hear back from the warranty folks at SG now but we'll see. In the meantime I think I'll have to go to another board, hope I get my Oxygen back. Everett

[lonbordin]

Bordy leads the horse to water...

...horse won't drink.

[Gcarve]

.........................and use something flimsy that I'll be snapping bails on once a month?

The TD3's are anything but flimsy. They are very durable, well engineered bindings. I don't think you'll be snapping bails monthly, although I suppose you could always try.

[jburrill]

Well well well. Looks like Im not the only one. I thought maybe I was snowboarding the wrong way or something. Or, perhaps I had "mishandled" my race board. Or, disrespected the establishment. Maybe I just overtightened my screws. Or carved too hard. Can a person carve too hard? The other day some guy came up to me and asked: Carving hard? and I just said; hardly carving. I was on a titanal board and didnt want to over do it. Ha Ha. I figured out how to fix a delam like the one that occurred on my first titanal board. I have a feeling it may have already been slightly damaged when I bought it. Either way, I finshed the damage and delamed the front inserts. I sent the board to SG but it got caught up in customs and wound up back on my doorstep after traveling to Austria.
So, I let it sit for a while and finally purchased inserts and counter sink bit from SVST. I set my bomber disk on the board and drilled pilot holes in between the extisting inserts right through the base. Then counter sunk with the custom drill bit through the base and into the core. Pounded the inserts in with some epoxy and screwed on my bindings. Done. A titanal/core/insert sandwich. This worked because in this board, the inserts are set not on the bottom but middle of the core. This is why I think they delam easily. There is room for inserts underneath the existing ones if you set them in between. If you can spot the delam in time you can fix it. (This should be the point where all the safety bull crap begins). My friend also fixed a broken Kessler the same way. Then went out and defeated me on it. So, I guess it worked for him too. Not a 100% fix but a way to salvage an otherwise dead board. If the surrounding titanal is damaged there will be sort of a dead spot in the area of the binding. The sooner you Identify any damage the better chance of repairing the damage.
I was mad that my SG board delaminated so what did I do? Complained for a while and then bought another SG board. Its fine. I use Sidewinders with yellow bases. The board and binding combo are both soft and smooth and comfortable. They work. And at this point, I dont think its going to fail. Im confident my other new SG slalom board will hold up as well. Unless I "mishandle" the board. After owning 4 different titanal boards, I will not look back. Im certainly willing to take the risk of board failure for the pleasure of riding a titanal board.
And yeah, Bordy is right on. Mixing 20 yrs of technology is risky at best. TD1's are for old school boards. TD3's are for new school boards. Then again, my never been used Burton Furnaces are working great for $85.00 except for that damn plastic walking mechanism (gone) and the canting bolt on the ankle (loose) and those liners (crap). Nothing T-bolts and foam liners didnt fix. My advice to Mr. TD1 is to buy some new bindings and a new SG. He may be able to fix that delam but its probably too severe. I dont think they will warranty the board. I dont know if he was stupid, maybe just uninformed. Stupid is assuming others will look out for you on a crowded OR empty slope. Now theres a thread!

[evnewsphoto]

Jburrill glad you weighed in, sorry I have hyjacked your post hope that's OK with you. Your tale has me really hesitating to spend what could be $50-100 in shipping to have the guys in Austria say sorry but we don't like what binding you put on. I have been emailing with someone at the "office" and they already said that my binding had a "special" abilty to break boards. So that is why it's good to hear that you had success with a T-nut approach which I am inclined to do. I should clarify by the way that by flimsy bails I mean snowpro type of bindings like a lot of folks use for flex, they remind me of the old Burton plates which I broke constantly. TD1s have worked well for me for a long time and an't broke so why fix em? I also have no problems with them on my other SG so don't think it's that either. And as far as switching bindings and buying a new SG, that would be way more than I can afford, at least $2000 or so, it's not like Fin will let me trade in the TD1s. Like I said it's an insert failure I believe and I think the same thing happened to you as well, the fact that you T-nuted and had no further problems backs that up also. I understand that you guys all want me to trow away my TD1s and drop lot's of money but I can't do that, and I have won plenty of races on them and love the results I get with them. First and foremost I will see what the SG warranty folks say then I may be getting out the drill. By the way Jburrill, what T-nut did you use? I have used and was going to again use M6 T-nuts from Ace hardware and then base weld over them, I don't know anywhere I get those fancy high end ones with P-tex on the bottom in time for my race on Saturday and don't think I'll get my Proton back by then either. I guess you guys can call me stupid all you want I just am trying to find a solution and something I can afford. Everett

[scrutton]

I wonder if anyone has thought of modifying or buffering the base of the TD1 with something larger and softer (simulating a TD2 or TD3 base). Maybe concentric rubber and wider platforms underneath it. And perhaps grinding the lower corner of the TD1's might help also.

I think I'd try this on an already damaged board if I was planning on riding it again.

Everett - if you do decide to repair and reuse the board what do you plan to do to prevent the TD1's from rupturing the board again?
I do totally agree with you on the plastic bindings - those old Burton's I was constantly breaking. I've never looked back since moving to Cateks (and now Bombers).

[evnewsphoto]

One thing that may have been a factor but I am not sure, is that one of my rubber bumpers was missing (fell out at some point) I starting to think that is why my other SG is fine, all of the bumpers are in place. The bumpers probably distribute the downword force and help relieve the stress on the inserts and the center disc. Like I said Fin designed a great binding in the first place even though he is still perfecting it you can't say that there was much wrong with TD1s. Not sure if a wider disc matters that much since it was the inserts that lifted up and failed. That's why I don't think it was those alone, could have been a lot of little things. Oh well.... Everett

[inkaholic]

This last post explains the user error. TD1s ar teeter totter without the bushings and will generate a lot more force on the inserts because of the missing bumper. After all these years one would think that a guy would know how to install his equipment properly. Don't count on warrantee since you bought the board used and put incomplete bindings on it.

Ink

[evnewsphoto]

This last post explains the user error. TD1s ar teeter totter without the bushings and will generate a lot more force on the inserts because of the missing bumper. After all these years one would think that a guy would know how to install his equipment properly. Don't count on warrantee since you bought the board used and put incomplete bindings on it.

Ink

Why does everyone keep insulting my intelligence on here? Me breaking my board is upsetting enough, insults are not needed. I stated that it fell out I think, not sure, that is different from me not installing it correctly. I am sorry I don't live up to all of you anal retentive a-holes who spend hours inspecting and polishing their high end equipment, I have two young kids, a job and a life, I am lucky I get to ride, train and race at all! I expect a board that cost more than a mortgage payment to at least not shatter after two months of normal use, is that asking for too much?

[NTwoO]

Getting back to one of the earlier posts, I've been thinking how one could fix this. One of the ideas I had was to make a vacuum chamber. For sidewall delaminations, one could use a piece of clear Acrylic tube with caps and notch one side to fit over the side. Rags impregnated with wax can be used to seal of the cracks and an old fridge pump can be used as a vacuum pump. It might be handy to have a vacuum gauge and first do some tests to see when the epoxy starts to boil... One must still figure out an elegant way to get the epoxy into the cracks once the vacuum is released, for one alternative route will suck air back in.

My guess is though that the chances of getting the original strength back is small...

[Jack Michaud]

Let's keep it neighborly and constructive guys. That said, I wouldn't expect any metal board to hold up for long under bumperless TD1s, sadly. S happens.

[evnewsphoto]

So you think it's OK for everybody to attack me? I can't turn back the clock but even the "Moderator" is saying I am stupid. I have already ordered new bumpers from Micheale and after I put T-nuts in I think that should work, I give up on talking to you guys. I can't understand why no one else except Kburrill who started this thread, thinks these boards should hold up better and not break so easliy. You guys must all enoy spending top dollar for things that break.

[Aracan]

So you think it's OK for everybody to attack me?

I think that's exactly what Jack did NOT write.

That said: I speak as someone who has never so far owned a metal board nor Bomber bindings. Should I ever decide to spend that kind of money, I would research as carefully as possible which pieces of equipment can be expected to work well together and which are not. In case of failure, that would at least make it easier to determine the cause.

[scrapster]

We all would like metal boards to be more durable--and the construction is improving. (See the fact that both Prior and Donek are now inlaying the titanal behind the sidewalls of their boards.) That being said, it is currently a trade-off between performance and durability. There is no one to blame. It is the state of the technology.

As the designer of my current metal board admitted when I bought it, they are "fragile." I knew I was taking a chance and that the more precautions I take (always store it and travel with it in a padded bag, use well cushioned bindings with a wider footprint, etc.), the longer the board will likely last. Still, there are no guarantees. The last metal SG I sold catastrophically delammed shortly afterward when the new owner smacked a gate. I hit a gate with my glass Donek just last month--the gate died, my board was fine. Again, it's a trade off.

[WEBSIGHT360]

So you think it's OK for everybody to attack me? I can't turn back the clock but even the "Moderator" is saying I am stupid. I have already ordered new bumpers from Micheale and after I put T-nuts in I think that should work, I give up on talking to you guys. I can't understand why no one else except Kburrill who started this thread, thinks these boards should hold up better and not break so easliy. You guys must all enoy spending top dollar for things that break.

Everett, all the advice given here to you from respected long time forum members indicates that your TD1's are not compatible with new metal boards. Everyone here has indicated that TD1's and new boards do not mix well. This has also been mentioned in many other posts, in other threads, here on the forum in the past. It's the first thing that came to my mind when you made your original post with pictures of your board. I would suggest selling your TD1's, and add a hundred bucks to that, and buy a set of used TD2's. That way, you would still have the great beefy bindings you like so much, without the danger of wrecking another board, and perhaps yourself. You will probably love the TD2's even more than you like your TD1's to boot...

[Timeless61]

We all would like metal boards to be more durable--and the construction is improving. (See the fact that both Prior and Donek are now inlaying the titanal behind the sidewalls of their boards.)

what do you mean by this?

does this just mean that rather than as the top sheet, the metal layers are below the top sheet and better protected because they are more towards the center of the board or...?

thanks

[corey_dyck]

I don't like the condescending tone either, but the message is valid: Don't use TD1s on a modern board or you'll risk a failure. Especially this one after it's been fixed, you couldn't pay me any amount of money to ride that after a repair with TD1s.

does this just mean that rather than as the top sheet, the metal layers are below the top sheet and better protected because they are more towards the center of the board or...?

If you had X-ray vision and looked from the top of the board, the titanal sheet doesn't go all the way to the edge. It's narrower than the overall width of the board. Then little nicks on the edge won't create a spot where a crack can initiate.

[WEBSIGHT360]

what do you mean by this?

does this just mean that rather than as the top sheet, the metal layers are below the top sheet and better protected because they are more towards the center of the board or...?

thanks

Yes, The metal layer is now protected by being under the topsheet, rather than being the topsheet itself, AND, they are making the metal sheet slightly narrower than the board itself, so that the metal does not go right to the edge of the sidewall. So when your sidewall takes a big hit, it does not put a dent or stress fracture on the metal sheet.

[scrapster]

what do you mean by this?

does this just mean that rather than as the top sheet, the metal layers are below the top sheet and better protected because they are more towards the center of the board or...?

thanks

Okay--just saw the responses above, so this is redundant.

Most, if not all, builders seem to be placing a protective top sheet over the titanal layer these days. In addition, some companies are also taking another step. Instead of running the titanal all the way to the edges of the board where it is exposed and can be chipped and nicked (ie. you can see the thin metal layer under the topsheet and just above the sidewall), they are cutting the metal slightly narrower so, like the wood core of the board, it is completely covered by the topsheet on top, and completely behind the sidewall on the side. There is no titanal exposed at all--not even that thin edge.