Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems

[bjvircks]

- maybe provides a leafspringesque two stages of board stiffness.

simply put, yes.

[bobdea]

seems there should be away to make it less expensive.. I can't believe the Vist is so much.. if you look at the material.. two aluminum plates an plastic side rails....$500 bucks?? whaaaaaa

RSS

maybe Vist is the same price as a hangl due to knowing people would pay as much? from what I can tell the hangl system is more complicated for a outcome that's not any better than Vist.

although, a set of Vist plates for skis runs you pay $200 or more and with the snowboard version you're basically getting 2 sets. so, Judging by that you're getting the same deal.
http://www.coloradodiscountskis.com/...roduct817.html

[Maciek]

from an Apex video

That looks like almost complete loss of edge feedback. Do you really want this?

Just a raw impression of me is that some compressing material like plastic along edge would still allow for more gradual flex while giving some minimum feedback to riders feet about what happens with edge.

Maybe it is just my personal bias, but it feels like driving progressive powersteering car where you do not get traction feedback almost at all vs. driving race car steering. Simlarily with suspension when you can have smooth transitions, but no traction feel due to car body roll.

That seems like requiring some super sensitivity from a rider.

Forgive me, but that's what I remember from long time ago... and you may consider this irrelevant today.


Have good runs

[BlueB]

There are shots of JJA's plate with a big rubber/foam dampener under. Look at that video that someone posted. I'll do a crop later, after hockey. Maybe it's up to rider, if he wanted the dampener or not.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Wait till you see some of the videos of these plates in action, close up. Amazing movement.

There are a number of parties looking at production options. Keep in mind the market is relatively small. Much like the high end bindings we all enjoy.
If they were mass produced in China, the price would come down.

I am sure the concepts and designs will see allot of change over the next year or two.


PS. SNOW STIX !!!

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Height- I find that some of the systems are as tall as I want to go. It becomes somewhat counter productive. Result may be more systems going with direct mounted toe and heal blocks?

Attachment points will become more important as these systems become available as a retail product. Both universal attachment and safety are balanced with what works mechanically. Vist is a great example of an attempt to do both well.

Tuning, the available options will grow. What currently takes allot of on snow testing will become much easier to find the sweet spot.

Again, think Snow Stix. They work, they are tuneable on hill. Basically this is what you are looking at in the extensions of the plates.

[bjvircks]

That looks like almost complete loss of edge feedback. Do you really want this?

Please keep in mind that this set of images only shows certain aspects of the entire system... not the whole shooting match. The attachment to the board is not shown... the sliding pins out the SIDE of the apex plate are not shown. Do not take the images out of context.

[Maciek]

Wait till you see some of the videos of these plates in action, close up. Amazing movement.

There are a number of parties looking at production options. Keep in mind the market is relatively small. Much like the high end bindings we all enjoy.
If they were mass produced in China, the price would come down.

I am sure the concepts and designs will see allot of change over the next year or two.


PS. SNOW STIX !!!

If they were poroduced in China... you would have hands full of quality control job. That's how it works in manufacturing and many do not see it this way in the USA accepting low quality for less money. This of course is excluding Apple that fights really hard to get quality, but it costs.

Do you really want lowering cost like that?

I would prefer paying more.

[Maciek]

Please keep in mind that this set of images only shows certain aspects of the entire system... not the whole shooting match. The attachment to the board is not shown... the sliding pins out the SIDE of the apex plate are not shown. Do not take the images out of context.

Okay. I see. I was only afraid of what I had expereinced when driving performance cars in comp

[emorris]

If they were mass produced in China, the price would come down.

I have been manufacturing in China for 15 years. In my opinion, unless you have a dedicated factory to produce these, there would be quality issues. It's not that you cannot get quality from China. I do; but I have a captive plant. But that drives costs up. As does the cost of flying back and forth.

A typical arrangement is outsourcing to a factory that does OEM manufacturing. The small volume is not a good fit to get this made in China. Most OEM factories in China are looking for volumes in the 10's of thousands. Producing in the hundreds can't compete with an order for 50,000 of anything. The tooling costs, set up time and quality requirements for such a low volume product just won't let this work.

In my opinion, this low volume product can really only be made in North America or Europe. We will just have to accept higher prices for what we want.

Now, if carving went mainstream...

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Maciek , Emorris, trust me, I am not FOR making them in China. It may go there, however, I was NOT encouraging it. I was responding to the inferences earlier in the thread that the cost is too high. Slow down. Maciek, you have allot of catching up to do. Welcome back, again. Bryan

[Maciek]

Maciek , trust me, I am not FOR making them in China. It may go there, however, I was NOT encouraging it. Slow down. You have allot of catching up to do. Welcome back again. Bryan

Sure. I have a lot of catching up to do in snowboarding

Not in business however


Good that this is not what you meant. I am overly sensitive as far as outsourcing to Asia from the USA. You see? ... and I am not even American while wanting to protect some qualities here

Thank God that Fin, Sean, Chris, Bruce and Jeff did not came with the idea, but survived somehow.

[lowrider]

Who wants a plate and how much will you pay ?? Got an old board laying around with good inserts ? I'll quote you a price !

[BlueB]

There are shots of JJA's plate with a big rubber/foam dampener under.

As promissed, crops from the video:

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Good that this is not what you meant. I am overly sensitive as far as outsourcing to Asia from the USA. You see? ... and I am not even American while wanting to protect some qualities here

Yep. I am proud 30 year member of the IBEW Local #48 , born and bred American made.

Tinkler plates are made in the USA. Snow Stix are made in the USA Tinker Snowboards area made in the USA.

So, you are singing to the choir. I am getting a kick out of being told by a fellow from Poland to not manufacture in China. I am afraid is would be pretty hard to not buy something from China any more. Short sighted? Perhaps. Back to PLATES.

[bjvircks]

BlueB... are you absolutely certain what you are showing in the images is part of the system and not a curtain to keep prying eyes from seeing the actual details? I thought I read that these were kept completely under wraps so nobody could copy. However, I think a bumper of some sort would be a good idea to ease the transition zone where the plate comes into contact with the board during high flex.

[bjvircks]

I'm still wondering what's with the big long "diving board" part of the plate that sticks out in front of the front binding. I saw yesterday during the race that there is nothing underneath it, no bumpers or anything. So is it supposed to contact the board when the board bends up a lot? Or is it a tuned mass damper?

Shred, remember my email?

I think Jack is talking about the Apex plate here... no bumpers seen. Not to say they couldn't be added or removed as conditions dictate.

[Jack Michaud]

There are shots of JJA's plate with a big rubber/foam dampener under. Look at that video that someone posted. I'll do a crop later, after hockey. Maybe it's up to rider, if he wanted the dampener or not.

All I know is there was nothing under there at the Olympics, I specifically watched for that.

[corey_dyck]

Wait till you see some of the videos of these plates in action, close up. Amazing movement.

We're ready when you are! I'm very anxious to see videos and to hear the makers/users impressions of how and why each system works.

[Jack Michaud]

We're ready when you are! I'm very anxious to see videos and to hear the makers/users impressions of how and why each system works.

Yeah Bryan, spill the beans. The cat is out of the bag now, make with the videos!

[lowrider]

I have seen one apex plate in use and up close but did not have access to xray or hacksaw to check out internal workings. Remember that it is quite light so bulk doesn't necessarily mean anything more than structural integrity Not to say there isn't a loonie imbeded in it somewhere maybe in the tip as dampener like jack has hinted.

[bjvircks]

Trying to keep people straight here, not having met any of them... but isn't Bryan only intimately familiar with the Tinkler gear, not Apex? If Bryan has got the goods on Apex... SPILL YOUR GUTS YOU *&(^&*(^&*^* TEASE OF A HOLDOUT !!!

[Jack Michaud]

Trying to keep people straight here, not having met any of them... but isn't Bryan only intimately familiar with the Tinkler gear, not Apex? If Bryan has got the goods on Apex... SPILL YOUR GUTS YOU *&(^&*(^&*^* TEASE OF A HOLDOUT !!!

Yes, but Jewell and Klug were on a similar plate system built by Tinkler.

[bjvircks]

Yes, but Jewell and Klug were on a similar plate system built by Tinkler.

true (but what the *%*%* do I know.... seriously. Whatever I think I know is what I get here at BOL and so I have ZERO practical exposure to this stuff)

I guess I'm interested in what the top secret Canadian brain trust came up with under JJA's boots. Subtle differences can mean dramatically different results.

[Beckmann AG]

Plates are here to stay Yes or no?

Maybe.

I think the results prove the next level in boarding will come with a well matched plate and board system.

The next level in boarding will come about from effort applied to the following three issues:
1. Accessibility.
2. A complete understanding of bio-mechanical issues; and a better integration of the human element with the mechanical elements.
3. Abandonment of the parallel format.

If alpine riding is to progress, it needs more participants. At present, the equipment is hard to find, hard to set up, and especially for the novice, hard to use. This is an obvious barrier to involvement.

There are few available resources for quality instruction, coaching, or training. When a prospective rider/wannabe racer has a concern, there should be available a sound explanation for why they cannot do what they think they should be able to do, and a solution close at hand.

Several key movement options available to top level ski racers are not available to the hardbooter, and not simply because the latter has both feet attached to the same platform. Part of the problem is equipment and its configuration, the other part is based on what currently passes for 'technique'.

With a larger number of participants, eventually one would see the next paradigm shift in movement, a shift away from the present 'hunker and skip' towards something with more finesse and fluidity.

If members of this forum have difficulty identifying with snowboard racing,(and apparently, they do), then you can't hold out much hope that such an activity will generate much interest among the general public.

The parallel format does little to challenge beyond consistency and endurance. A return to the single course would allow for far greater variability in the set, which in turn would challenge the rider to ride with greater versatility of movement. This would certainly enhance the visual appeal. Not to mention that the effective use of the entire trail has far more relevance to the recreational rider/would-be competitor than a highly processed dual arena.

Better isolation plates have simply allowed the present generation of riders to do what they do with less punishment.

While effective plates attached to high end boards are nice, and technologically attractive, neither will address the more important issues involved with advancing this sport.

In fact, if both items are necessary to be a successful rider, then they may serve to slow, and not hasten, the growth of the sport.

The results indicate, among other things, that JJA has likely racked up far more hours doing what he does than any other competitor. That alone is probably worth more than his plate system.

[Seb]

From the wax room at the games![IMG]file:///C:/Users/Acer/Pictures/2010-03-01/078.JPG[/IMG]

[Michael Pukas]

Awesome pic - thanks Seb! There's a lotta wet dreams sitting right there...

re: bumpers under the front of the plates; not sure what I'm looking at, but looks like some of the boards have bumpers in different locations under the front of the plate. Adjustable for variable conditions/preferences?

[Jack Michaud]

*drool*

Thanks Seb!

[Buell]

Wow!

Another thanks Seb!

[lowrider]

Someone could get in trouble for letting that one out!