I'd rather have my foot stepped on by a 250lb dude in sneakers, than a 90 lb supermodel in high heels. The latter is more likely to put a hole in your foot because the forces she exerts are being concentrated on a single tiny point.
The duckbill may be suspended above the board, while the board is not turning, but my understanding is that when the board is de-cambered sigificantly (eg, during a hard turn) that it does come in contact with the board, and that some riders put material beneath the bill to adjust just how far the board has to decamber before the bill contacts the board (as well as to dampen the impact). The duckbill would seem fairly pointless if it never actually comes in contact with the deck. The rider reports I have heard indicate that during a turn, the duckbill pressures the topsheet of the deck: that is what I am talking about in terms of force distribution.
And I agree with you - I would much prefer a board whose flex pattern is designed to work with a plate, over a plate that tries to compensate for the board being too soft in the shovel ... but with regard to looks: I think the duckbill looks totally weird - I much prefer the look of the Bomber Plate and the Donek plate.
Last edited by queequeg; November 18th, 2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: engrish!
And I agree with you - adding just one bumper will spread the load between two points rather than just one under the front pivot. But again, there's going to be a new point load at the bumper where the nose can fold around - a bit; and the plate now has an upward force applied to it that it may not be deisgned to accept, hence possible failure.
So let's say you design a plate with a duckbill that is designed to flex - how much do you allow it to flex? Having multiple points for variable bumper placement is easy. Do you have different flexing duckbills to compensate for different board flexes? And do you then couple that with different stiffnesses between the feet for different rider preferences? Many many variable yet to be R&D'ed. I'm curious to see where this goes in the long run... Is there going to be one camp with duckbills and one without? Is there going to be one camp that likes ultra-stiff plates and one that likes plates with some flex?
I carve therefor I am
Michael and Mark:
Have you seen the Apex plate? It's clearly designed to contact the topsheet, whether there is a bumper there or not to change the engagement point/initial stiffness. lowrider has posted some pictures of the SGP plate as well. I haven't heard of any failures of the Apex plate. The SGP plate is an unknown as its development has been hidden from BomberOnline so far.
>:^o Apexinside...get Off Computer And Produce The Sport Plat!!
I guess I better jump back in here because there seems to be a lot of assumptions being made about our design.
The duckbill on the Apex plate is not intended to alter or interfere with the flex of the snowboard. In normal GS turns, it does not contact the snowboard. The majority of the Canadian racers last year rode the plate naked. Well, they did wear clothes but did not place any kind of bumper under the plate's bill. This season, you may see more racers adding a dampening bumper but I suspect that has more to do with mimicking Jasey Jay Anderson's setup than anything else.
Having the duckbill act as a dampening spring is strictly an option. Michael Pukas is right - without a bumper in between, the duckbill does not contact the snowboard unless there is a major deflection. For weekend warriors like us, messing around with bumpers under the duckbill is probably not a good idea. We just don't have the sensitivity and experience to tune it properly. Jasey would finish a run, wet his finger, stick it in the air and declare that he needed a slightly softer bumper for the next run. Us mortals would just be guessing.
This is where I have to bail on this thread. Keeping up is killing my day. Feel free to call or email with specific questions.
110/220v - you posted as I was typing this. I'm going back to the lab now.
P.S. One thing I forgot to add - when we talk about flex, it is not just the ability to bend fore and aft that comes into play. Just like a snowboard, torsional rigidity is a big factor in the "feel" department.
Last edited by Apex Insider; November 18th, 2010 at 03:26 PM.
So the bill only comes into play under extreme circumstances then, but in those circumstances it is meant to deflect/distribute the load?
Last edited by queequeg; November 18th, 2010 at 03:43 PM.
Cool, thanks for the info on the Apex. I stand corrected.
Thanks for the clarification AI - much appreciated! I had heard that Jasey Jay was fiddling with his plate after every run - for a long time I couldn't understand what he could be fiddling with. Then I naively assumed it must be the position and durometer of the bumpers, or something like that.
I carve therefor I am
Keep the info coming...just scanned through all 24 pages. We so need a new thread "Plate specific - Heard in the lift line".
I think I'll snag one before the end of the season. Looking forward to hearing some reviews of the Boiler Plate.
I think I recall a question awhile back about the use of a plate in slalom. I photographed some of the Slalom event on Friday. Here are a few shots of the plates these guys are using right now.
same plate from the side
Trappy on a Bomber plate:
This looks familiar
There are a lot more action photos here: http://donek.smugmug.com/Sports/Snow...14736261_6pUqP
There are some photos of the after race party on our facebook page:
Having checked out your photos, it seems the real question now is - who was NOT on plates...
To my layman's eye, it looks like the Tinkler plate has a "base" (i.e., under the plate) similar to Hangl.
Sims Burner with Donek Plate and Ratrap bindings.
Does this mean that all new plates should only be used on yet to be invented new boards ?
tex1230,wrote, " I really don't meanto offend, but what's the point? "
I doubt burton185 is offended, he oviously knows that this is where a good isolation system will really shine ............
More Smiles per mile :)
765 grams = 1.6865 lbs. or 26.985 oz.
dont worry im not offended
its like putting Hotchkis/Currie suspension on your old skool Camaro/Mustang..... is it wrong? hummm......nopers!
my Burners are my riding type.
Ive have td2 and catek os1 but my ratraps are the best bindings I like. Low and semi stiff.(not stiff as cateks/td and not soft as burtons race plates)
snowboarding has alot of configuration then skiing. Stance width, angles, canting and now the plates. To each is there own.
Also having odd/rare looking setup makes you center of attraction, many times in lift lines i have people asking what im riding.
Last edited by burton185; November 20th, 2010 at 10:52 PM.
Just came back from the first test day on my home made plate. Wonderfull! Smooth! Powerfull! Fast!
Yes, I did feel that I possibly could widen the stance just a bit. Yes, the board did feel a bit "softer" then without plate. Yes, centered style worked the best, even a bit of back seat, maybe.
It is a bit of bear to handle at low speeds, but I guess, it wasn't invented for that. Also a bit more work to get the board on edge, but once there, woo-hooo!
Maybe one word of warning would be in place: plate is not a cure for your mistakes. Actually, it can make the things worse when you really screw up. I went full speed over a knoll, in a close to fully laid toe side, didn't amortize properly and lost the edge. As my CM was already lower then the propper technique calls for, there was no way to recover - I slid and bounced down the steep pitch, with the board violently engaging and disengaging. The weight of the system and edge setting power made this bouncing/skipping very hard, to the point that I compressed my neck a bit and shins got a bit of beating too.
Later I switched to a smaller Kessler, without plate. Oh, boy, did it feel bouncy after the plated big gun! Last run of the day I did on the plate again, just to confirm my earlier findings. Did I say smooth already?
Next test, I'll have to do with 2x 185s Kesslers, one plated, one TD3s only.
Old and "new"-
I've been reading through this and just have a few random comments with no agenda
I had an old 24/7 with the full plate. That thing was a hefty beast, and that plate felt great. It was a very smooth and stable ride. The weight itself took very little getting used to as once that thing was on the snow the torsional stiffness really helped pull it over edge to edge.
The Kessler I picked up is so much lighter then my old glass Coiler (my gold standard) I imagine even with a plate it will fall into my "neutral" weight category.
I rode with a Conshox for a bit- I found it pretty well useless on GS boards. It was pretty darn short an didn't seem to do much for me for damping the ride or acting as a flex modifier. I can see how a short isolation plate would help, but for a direct mount plate I think there needs to be more extension. I cut up a wood core deck some time ago in a similar shape but much bigger to use on 162+ decks. I may mount that to a rock board to see if it does anything other then add stiffness. Other folks seemed to like the conshox, but I didn't really notice any change to the behavior or feel to the 3-4 decks I mounted it on (all 185 gs type sticks).
Just food for the discussion.
Eric. Allot is going to be going on when you get back on the Kessler. Shape, camber changes, not to mention a very fine mix of materials by the premier board builder. I would ride it without, then with your new plate. I think you will find it turns easy and rides very damp and stable.
Weight is a huge factor. Me? I welcome it. In itself it helps dampen via mass. There is a substantial difference between the plates we have been riding for many years now and those with space between the board and plates (with pivots)
My guess is you will have a few runs of WTF and then it will all fall into place and be amazing. Also consider your snow surface conditions.
Take it easy and don't get cocky the first day back ok? Enjoy. Hope to get to ride with you again soon.
For those who are newer to BOMBER or forget (as am do). Allow me to catch you up with our riding friend "Mr E". Eric is a long time alpine rider, much the experimenter and shape thinker. He is a professional bike frame builder with his own business in Eugene Oregon. Moved around allot the past ten years. He was the founder and promoter of the first Mt Hood "Big Carve" session. It was there , that Mike T took over the session promotion and organization and it became "Oregon Expression Session" and moved to Mt Bachelor, Oregon.
I am particularly thrilled to see Eric getting the new plate which will carry the name he coined. It is hopefully the ignition point that sets him on fire again.
We all benefit when guys like Eric are involved.
(PS, the coiler Headhunter 200c was Eric's design) He is one clever dude
To kind, Bryan. I fell of the technology wagon right when it started to trickle down to the masses price wise! I was teaching snowboarding but there seemed no point to riding a world cup level board when teaching HS kids how to link turns. Injury kept me off the hill for about 3 years, and I am stoked to get back on it with some of the gear I've been dreaming over. I'm excited to see what this stuff can do for bum knees and weak legs
PS- Cocky? Me? Never...
Today, the plate ended up on my old beefy (semi retired) Generics 170. For a good measure I also brought a WCRM 173 with TD3s only, to have 2 boards of similar spec.
Due to a specific insert pattern on Generics, the only way I could mount the plate was with the axles just inside of the centerlines of the bindings. On the morning's hero snow, I didn't notice anything negative witht his setup. Later when the things bumped up a bit, I think I could feel a bit of "teter-toter" effect that someone mentioned earlier...
Plates definitelly gives a new aspect and quality to the old glass boards, too. While my legs were fresh, it was almost more fun then the titanal board. The hooky and poppy tail worked very well in the combo with the smoothness of the plate, for freecarving!
Later I switched few times back and forth, from plated to platless board, on various pitches, to try to make some conclusions. It is not a completelly fair test, as one is a new schoolish, super light board, and other a heavy tank. Yet, the specs are reasonably simillar. Results are a bit indecisive... While the old plated board was a smoother and more powerfull ride, while messing the stance less, the light plateless board was more playfull and, I dare to say, easier to ride, in the terms of edge changes.
On Tuesday, I'll probably have a chance to do two identical Kesslers 185, with and without plate. Stay tuned.
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