Boots - Race Fit

[Kent]

I had a rather lengthy post....but decided to delete it and let the photos do the talking.

Several thread on boot fit lately, I rec'd a PM last night from a BOL member and the kids on the race team are curious how I can use a boot which is nearly smaller than my foot. This isn't a bravado thread...this is simply an example of a race/performance fit.

My knowledge of current alpine boots/technology is dated...but more than happy to answer questions/PMs from people who have difficult issues.

A few key points.
- 27.5 mondo foot / 25.5 boot shells / 25 liner
- High instep / Arch
- Peterson BioSkate Insole - foam posting
- Sorry for looking at my feet - but toenails are VERY short
- Lightweight (not thin) wool socks
- Duct tape on end of insoles to wiggle toes
- Buckle boots from bottom to top
- Never buckle too tight, esp on lower buckles
- I never unbuckle for lifts or break - very comfortable
- Warm toes (Just started using Boot Glove under 10 degrees).

The measurement with the meter stick was done with stick/foot backed up against a wall and slightly weighted.

[queequeg]

I have a very tight fit lengthwise, getting things to set up with a new boot is painful but a racing fit definitely has its rewards. Some things that have definitely helped me out:

Footbed: Get a custom footbed that will support your foot correctly and prevent it from trying to slide forward in the boot. Heel lift will shorten the foot somewhat in the boot. Thinning out the toe area will have somewhat of the same effect.

Liner molding: get it done by a pro. I recently got a new set of liners molded at the startinggate in VT and they did a better job than I could do at home:

Stuff I can do at home:
- footbed taped to foot under your riding sock.
- toecap over toes and footbed under riding sock.
- maybe some cotton balls between toes.

Stuff startinggate did that I could not:
- warm up boot shell prior to molding, to assist fit and assist insertion of hot liner+foot into boot.
- Made absolutely certain that lower seams on liner are lined up correctly with bottom of foot once foot is in boot (such that ankle supports are properly positioned).
- Made certain that the shin wrap of the liner was wrapped correctly, and then held in place with a (plus-sized) pantyhoze outside of the liner (with my foot inside the liner.
- place plastic shim inside rear of boot cuff to help slide heated liner+ foot into boot quickly. Remove once liner is in boot.
- held down boot and had me flex back and forth to shove in some toe room and press out the heel.
- Walked away and had me stand there in the molding boots for as long as humanely possible (until my quads started trembling and I began to whine).

If you don't have a good bootfitter around, having a second or third person help you with this other stuff may help.

I also had to have the toebox of my boot punched out at the big toe. My big toe is well ... big. Sergeant Hulka would have been proud. Prolly not something you can do at home.

Whenever I get into my boots I stomp my heel once, and then start with the instep buckle, moving down towards the toe first and then up towards the calf. With a tight fit lengthwise buckles do not have to be very tight at all.

[BobD]

Great post Kent. The penny dropped for me when I heard you say once, something like "if you don't have to cut your toe nails once a week, your boots are too big". Maybe an exaggeration, but it got the point across.

BobD

[pokkis]

Kent, what is your mondo size measured with that footbed?

[John E]

I think I have heard Larry at Larry The Boot Fitter in Boulder talk about a 4 size down performance fit. This sounds crazy painful.

Looking at your photos, it is hard to imaging that your feet will fit into those shells (and still have room for liners).

[Kent]

Kent, what is your mondo size measured with that footbed?

Very good question. I can measure tonight both weighed/unweighted with and without support of the insole to show how pronation plays into boot fit.


Of course..there are MANY caveots with the pix and my set-up. That liner was short lived and the BioSkate insole is thinner than most. But the lesson is the same...the shell is the most important factor, insole is the 2nd. The liner and stuff can all be modified after you have the foundation and basement constructed.

k

[bobdea]

good posts kent
the last one in particular, is huge. with proper support I can drop a full shell size and be comfy.

[Chucklebeast]

cool post, haven't gotten that tech with my fitting, but after ordering my 700s 2 sizes smaller than regular shoes on the advice of this and other websites it took me 2 shell moldings and liner fittings to get comfy, but now it is better feeling than my softies, which are 10.5 US. weird.

One thing, and I know that it can be found somewhere, just clueless as to where on-site...

How do I keep my rear heel from lifting? I was thinking of carving something outta foam to pinch down on my Achilles tendon/heel area...thoughts?

[Wun]

people that don't like to make their own stuff can find ankle pads that come with burton boots or the ones sold at tognar.

this page has a picture of them; if i understand correctly, they go outside the liner, inside the shell.

[Beckmann AG]

Slide foot forward in shell until toes just touch, as in photo 1.

Check space behind heel as in photo 2. Clearance shown represents the maximum for a 'proper' recreational fit.

Photo 3 illustrates toe clearance with heel back in pocket, and extra space alongside first metatarsal bone. (This is almost enough to sublet for student housing).

When the support is uniform around, as well as under, feet tend not to get too cold, as no one part of the foot is constricted in the quest for retention.

Get the shell geometry right, and the boots become almost 'invisible'.

(I have downsized a bit since these photos).

Careful on the toenail trimming; go too short in confined footwear and risk in-growns.

On heel retention via C-pads, wraps, etc: Especially on the rear foot, be wary of adding any foam across or impinging upon the achilles tendon. Additional pressure on a loaded tendon can often lead to inflammation, and inflammation can lead to tendon failure; or at the very least, cessation of activity.

[Jack Michaud]

so, uhh, what kind of liner goes in there? injected?

[lonbordin]

so, uhh, what kind of liner goes in there? injected?

Pantyhose, silly!

Soooo why do "they" continue to make boots shaped like:

Why not some shaped like I don't know a freakin' human foot.

ala say KEEN footware shapes?!

[Beckmann AG]

what kind of liner goes in there?

For the shell in the photo, the stock Lange Purple Haze liner, circa 199?.
After a few visits to the H. Lecter school of razor knife juggling, of course.

Presently, the leather lace-up from the Nordica/Tecnica plug boot.
(Leather lace-up. That even sounds racy, I mean, fast). With Smartwool liner socks. Black on the left, white on the right.

"they" continue to make boots shaped like (your diagram here)

...because "you" continue to buy them.

It is too 'costly' to make anatomically 'correct' shells for a niche market. Far easier to make a generic shape and then make it comfortable with a thermo-fit liner.
The niche market seems fairly content with what is available, thus no impetus for change.

After, what, 15 years of nasty-flexing, boxy plastic telemark boots, Garmont has forged ahead of Scarpa, Black Diamond, and Crispi, and built a new shell, shaped like (guess what?), a Lange race boot.
It skis really well.
Go figure.

What you want is likely available, it just may cost more than you wish to spend...

[tomppa]

Thanks Kent for sharing information.

When you heat Thermo-inliner to your setup, how do tight do you buckle, loose or tight?

Duck tape to wiggle toes, can you explain more what shape to do with ducktape? Do you rise foot that point that toes goes lower? Or do you make somekind support between foot and toes? Or just to make it slippery and easyer to wiggle toes?

Tom

[Kent]

Thanks Kent for sharing information.

When you heat Thermo-inliner to your setup, how do tight do you buckle, loose or tight?

Duck tape to wiggle toes, can you explain more what shape to do with ducktape? Do you rise foot that point that toes goes lower? Or do you make somekind support between foot and toes? Or just to make it slippery and easyer to wiggle toes?

Tom

A typical plastic toecap wouldn't fit (literally), so I cut the toes off of 3-4 pair of socks and wore those under my ski sock for the fitting. As you could imagine, my foot didn't exactly want to go in the boot. It was a fairly painful 5-10 mins. The toecap didn't create much/if any length, but does provide room (vertical). The buckles were merely "snug", not tight as if I were going riding. No idea weather ther Thermo manufacture would consider that best practice.....but I certainly would not over-tighten.

Duct tape. Only used to create a slippery area. I wouldn't advise most people to do this. I just like wiggling toes a bit and dict tape was the only idea I had at the time....

[bobdea]

A typical plastic toecap wouldn't fit (literally), so I cut the toes off of 3-4 pair of socks and wore those under my ski sock for the fitting. As you could imagine, my foot didn't exactly want to go in the boot. It was a fairly painful 5-10 mins. The toecap didn't create much/if any length, but does provide room (vertical). The buckles were merely "snug", not tight as if I were going riding. No idea weather ther Thermo manufacture would consider that best practice.....but I certainly would not over-tighten.

.

ahh the cut up socks, I also do this. it works just as well as a toe cap as long you keep in mind that you have to make them long enough. my first set was short and did not work well then I cut mine a bit longer and I mold a thermo liner on myself better than most shops are able to.

[Michael Pukas]

Great thread Kent! Very informative. Hard to believe that you can even get your foot into those boots.

I get my boot work done A Boot Lab in Vail, and some of the guys in the shop wear zero-clearance ski boots like yours. But they have the luxury of tweaking their boots after a run to dial the fit in. One guy rando races and he wears a pair of his ex-girlfriend's that he bought for her and she didn't' use. He has punched out each toe in the front of the shell.

I made the mistake last year of buying boots too big (ignoring good advice from more experienced and knowledgeable people) for both carving and tele. I ended up down sizes my carving boots one size, and my tele boots 2 sizes (they are now the same size shell). And I'm considering trying the next size smaller 700T's just to see what happens.

After, what, 15 years of nasty-flexing, boxy plastic telemark boots, Garmont has forged ahead of Scarpa, Black Diamond, and Crispi, and built a new shell, shaped like (guess what?), a Lange race boot.
It skis really well.

Beckmann - I demo'd the new Garmont Prophet NTN boots last spring, and was very impressed w/ the boot build and design. I thought they skied well, but not significantly, or any better, than the Scarpa NTN. This year I got the TX Pro's and I very impressed. Great designs on both parts.

Point being, as I've said for many years now, the boots we have are the weakest link in the system. With Fin (and Catek to so degree) pushing the design of binding, and all board manufacturers pushing the shape design construction and materials envelopes, out boots are dinosaurs. the Raichle AF-now-Deeluxe-Track boot shell has been around for the better part of 10 years now, and it works OK, but still there's much room for improvement.

If some boot company - I don't care who it is - came out with a carving boot that performed better, but primarily fit better and was made out of lighter weight plastic - like Pebax - and was more comfortable to walk in, I wouldn't hesitate paying in the upper $700 range. Crap, we pay $600 for Tracks and 550 for UPZ, and there's nothing new on those things (despite the frisbee plastic on the RC-10's). I still say the Burton Fire's ride better than the Tracks. But, alas we are a small niche, and we're lucky to have as good equipment as we have.

[Michael Pukas]

Lange race boot.

BTW, Beckmann, you mentioned a Lange race boot... I remember seeing a post last year on some other forum, where someone referenced a new design change in the Lange shell. There was a link to an article that had a side by side comparison of the new and old shells cut apart. There were changes in volume and shape. Sound familiar? Do you know any more about this? Just curious is all. Thanks! mpp

[BobD]

Instead of cutting up old socks, I use folded layers of kitchen paper towel over my toes, trimmed and taped in place. I then wear a thin sock for molding, to allow for a bit of packing in. After a few uses, I can go to a medium thickness sock.

BobD

[John E]

Ski Kare:

http://www.skikare.com/

offers boot-fitting pads, insoles and other items to help custom fit boots.

They also have a good deal on wax: $9.00/lb.

I have no affiliation with them but they are right down the street from me.

[Beckmann AG]

MP,
I'm not too surprised that both NTN boots skied alike.
I was referring to the Voodoo, which shares the mold with the Prophet, albeit w/duckbill. I have been skiing the triple G/Energy shell since it was introduced, often with one of each at the same time, and the Voodoo is a vast improvement.
I'm not sold on the NTN, but then I learned on leather Asolo and Merrill Supercomps, and I really want that smooth articulation on my rear foot. When the boots have gone through one or two more significant design changes, then the NTN will probably work well. Right now finesse has lost out to 'oomph'.

I really don't have enough information on the design changes at Lange to make a qualified statement. From what I hear though, the most recent shell (the 'sharknose') has not worked out quite as well as planned, and they may be returning to one of the previous iterations. This may be just rumor.

The Voodoo shape falls somewhere between the classic ZR and the baby blue WC 150 from two years ago.

Thanks Kent, for starting this one off.

[Fastskiguy]

Is that a bone spur on your heel? I can't believe you ride in a boot that snug!

Slide foot forward in shell until toes just touch, as in photo 1.

Check space behind heel as in photo 2. Clearance shown represents the maximum for a 'proper' recreational fit.

Photo 3 illustrates toe clearance with heel back in pocket, and extra space alongside first metatarsal bone. (This is almost enough to sublet for student housing).

When the support is uniform around, as well as under, feet tend not to get too cold, as no one part of the foot is constricted in the quest for retention.

Get the shell geometry right, and the boots become almost 'invisible'.

(I have downsized a bit since these photos).

Careful on the toenail trimming; go too short in confined footwear and risk in-growns.

On heel retention via C-pads, wraps, etc: Especially on the rear foot, be wary of adding any foam across or impinging upon the achilles tendon. Additional pressure on a loaded tendon can often lead to inflammation, and inflammation can lead to tendon failure; or at the very least, cessation of activity.

[BobD]

Interestingly, I noticed that there are the two types of toes in these photos, Kent's with the longer big toe. and Beckmann's with the longer second toe. Mine look like Beckmann's. I have wondered about this difference and how it affects boot fit. Looking at the photos, it would seem boots are better shaped for a longer second toe.

BobD

[lonbordin]

Although commonly described as a disorder, it is sufficiently common to be considered a normal variant of foot shape (its prevalence varies with different populations, but around 10% of feet worldwide have this form). The main symptom experienced due to Morton's toe is discomfort and callusing of the second metatarsal head. This is because the first metatarsal head would normally bear the majority of a person's body weight during the propulsive phases of gait, but these forces are transferred to the second (smaller) metatarsal head because of its anterior positioning. In shoe-wearing cultures it can be problematic: for instance, in causing nail problems from wearing shoes with a profile that doesn't accommodate the longer second toe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton%27s_toe

So why is the shell designed for ~10% of the population? Edit: I noted that further down it says less than 50%... ah wikiFAIL.

B.A.G.- Don't say because we buy it as I can't find an alternative shell shape except for that one Lange.

[yyzcanuck]

I posted this in another thread... HERE
.
.
.

[lonbordin]

I posted this in another thread....

Nice yyzcanuck.

I thought this was a nice write up of the types to go with your graphic:

There are three basic normal foot structures which exist in the human foot:
1) Rectus Foot Type-this is a normal foot structure with an ‘average' arch, and has an ‘average' calcaneal inclination angle.
2) Cavus Foot Type-this is a normal foot structure with a ‘high' arch, and has a higher than average calcaneal inclination angle.
3) Planus Foot Type-this is a normal foot structure with a ‘low' arch, and has a lower than average calcaneal inclination angle.
The normal (or average) calcaneal inclination angle is between 18-22 degrees. For information, and graphics, regarding the calcaneal inclination angle, and other related radiographic angles of the human foot, here.

One of these three basic foot structures are inherited at the time of birth. There are varying degrees within each individual foot type; however, the important thing to recognize is ALL three of these foot structures are normal . (awww c'mon. killin' my fun here!)
{There are fewer foot problems associated with individuals who have a rectus (average arch height) foot type vs. a cavus (higher arch height) or a planus (lower arch height) foot type.}
Source

[Beckmann AG]

FSG,
Camera angle +large heelbone =exaggerated dimension of ancient bone spur. That spur developed when I began riding hardboots, and began to recede when I got rid of the inward canting on my rear binding.

I don't ride in a boot that snug. I ride in a boot that is snugger. I'm just a niche, within a niche, wrapped in darkness and silence.


LB,
I had always heard that the "Greeks would inherit the earth". Tough to do as only 10%.
There is a large amount of misinformation out there on feet, how they work, and what is considered 'normal'.

I suspect that back when cobblers built shoes by hand, it was good enough to commission a single symmetric anvil from the local blacksmith. Same thing with wooden lasts. Shoes were leather, and would eventually conform to the foot, so a symmetric toe box was no issue.
A symmetric toe box is easier (thus cheaper) to scale when you are cutting shell molds in multiple sizes out of aluminum.

Most ski boots are sized 1 to 2 sizes too large. In this situation, the user won't notice the squeeze of the symmetric toe box, and I suspect the average skier is not going to gravitate towards a shell with an apparent tumor where the big toe is supposed to be.

Functional shoes are seldom stylish, (or even appealing to the eye), and style is everything, right?

So I guess I can say again, "They make it, because 'you' buy it."

Maybe not You, but you know, 'you'...

Outside of ski boots, mountaineering boots, hockey skates(remember the old black Langes from the '70's?), and perhaps a player to be named later, injection molding of shoe parts represents a fairly small part of the market. (Excepting shoe soles of oriental origin. They all look like they were sqeezed from the same tube of caulk). Why change the traditional, mostly effective, manufacturing process for what, again, represents a niche market?

I once asked the former president of Garmont USA why it was so hard to make effective improvements to their telemark boots. He said that the Italians would do things as they saw fit, based on what they had always done; and that, as a hiking boot manufacturer, telemark boots were just an afterthought.

Back to toe shapes; the Garmont Voodoo and Prophet both have an asymmetric toe box, with room for the longer first digit of the Egyptian foot. This has been a feature on select hiking boots for a number of years.

Consider yourself fortunate not to own a cuboid foot.

BD,
Not only are 'we' in the minority, 'we' of the Greek foot are alleged to be just a bit smarter...So welcome to the club.

[Fastskiguy]

FSG,
Camera angle +large heelbone =exaggerated dimension of ancient bone spur. That spur developed when I began riding hardboots, and began to recede when I got rid of the inward canting on my rear binding.

I don't ride in a boot that snug. I ride in a boot that is snugger. I'm just a niche, within a niche, wrapped in darkness and silence.

Well I'm impressed, that is one form fitting hunk of plastic there, no doubt. If I could run something like that I'd be all over it! But I might have to wait for reincarnation to embrace a setup like that.

[Fastskiguy]

hell that's my straight foot too...

[lonbordin]

and raise you two. (high volume baby!)

From pub