Isolating bindings from Titanal board.

[bobdea]

yeah, mine cost like $13 to make
Mine after doing some research were a different name for lexan, it was polycarbonate if I remember correctly.
was right next to the plexiglass, the guy that cut said "watch this!" and started beating a sheet with a hammer
it only scratched

[Steve Prokopiw]

The materials are actually pretty cheap comparatively.Another plus,from what I've been reading, is added leverage which makes sense to me from what I remember about my old school carving days..On the Coiler 182am I don't plan to try it as I like to be as close to the board as possible for what I will use it for,ie all mountain and some air/tricks so I have f2 ti intecs on it..But I have a 185 oxygen proton and cateks that I want to try it with and then someday go to a metal board armed with more firsthand knowledge of how risers/flex plates affect my riding. p.s.bobdea,I know you dislike the protons (cap boards) from reading you opinions(which I respect),but I'm light and aggro and always liked Oxygen stuff so I bought it

[Bordy]

$80? for some PLASTIC? jesus

I mean more that the metal boards seem, IN MY OPINION kinda stupid for a recreational rider. The simple fact that you have to use spacers means there's a problem with board/binding compatibility and someone should work on it

I guess metal is "the s--t" but at $1000+ for a board that is fragile and needs all this special care I just think it goes beyond reasonable, kinda likea 285cm board.

The durability of the metal board has gotten way better but its really some bindings are more likley to create a sharper pressure point then others. I really think we are just in a transition period, Metal had been used in skiis for so long it was easy to make metal boards.
The 4-hole mounting system is really the problem with the durability and option issue. Since most of the binding we ride were made premetal, There is really a niche that needs to be filled. The hangle helps but boards still break. Off course any board could break metal or wood. It used to be we broke alot of wood boards now we break alot of metal boards. It really is just that the metal can dent some thing glass could not do.

[D-Sub]

and once it dents it creates a weak spot, right? makes sense

y'all can keep your metal boards. I'm not good enough to notice anyway, plus Im saving up for a 300cm custom.

[Sinecure]

Im saving up for a 300cm custom.

Will that be a tandem?

[skategoat]

Why not just use the stuff Catek uses? Makrolon. http://www.makrolon.com/BMS/DB-RSC/M...or_makrolon_en

I'll even pay for the sheet as a joint venture if someone with some skill can cut me a couple of spacers.

[D-Sub]

Will that be a tandem?

Trandem

[cail]

I'll even pay for the sheet as a joint venture if someone with some skill can cut me a couple of spacers.

the distributor near me carries Makralon sheet. i'm still trying to narrow down between 3 materials (makralon is one of them). after i talk to some plastics people to make sure i'm not missing anything, and get prices i'll let you know what i decide to go with if you're interested. heck if it's cheap enough i'll get 2 or all 3 to test.

[BlueB]

You sound like the guy to find out what the best commonly avalable materal may be, You mentioned lexon before, anything else? Just looking for function it is just a spacer really and the compresion force it receives is just hand turned screw pressure.
The only other info on the Plex I am using is the sku from home depot, it reads 7450799308

Tried searching Home depos site with 3 codes you mentioned, nothing returned. I think something is wrong with their search engine...

Polycarbonate is the 1st choice. Lexan and Makralon are the trade names by different manufacturers. Should be easy to get.

2nd choice is high-molecular polyethilene or polypropilene (cutting board), that's why I asked if anyone has tried it.
It is elastic, doesn't break or buckle, stable at temperature and moisture changes. Takes compression loads no probs. Selflubricating, too. I made some mast bearings out of it and it performed way better than alu alloy counterpart.
It is easilly available and cheap. Downside: a bitch to cut and send. Melts on high teperature caused by friction (when cut by grinding or high-speed saw).

Teflon sheet would be great too. However it's more expensive and not so readilly available.


I'll research the matter a bit more...

[D-Sub]

how come you guys cant use high density rubber?

[Bordy]

Thanks you for your help I did some reading also it sure looks loke some thing better then the Plex I am using is in order.

Sounds like Bob found Polycarbonate at a local store. Home Depot Bob

I used to ride a board with polypropilene side walls it was so sick! They were always fast. I beleave its also the materal used on resort rails. ( in the park) Then we discovered how to tie die it it was neet.

[Bordy]

how come you guys cant use high density rubber?

board feel and respose. Temprature issues.

There are a ton of ways to make it better. If I had any money I would give it a try.

[D-Sub]

you mean it's too squishy?

if the idea is just protection, wouldnt you want the thinnest possible? sorry to ask so many questions..just curious.

[Bordy]

Well part of the gig is we are trying to keep the board from bending around the binding and denting. So by adding the thicker plate (alltough it does not affect board flex) it allows the board something smooth and slippery to bend against. If its thick it helps the board bend more with out hinging becuase the binding if further away from the board. In a perfect world the board gets no disruption at all (hangle plate) so then there is no hinge or pressure point loading.

[lonerider]

I just looked at Catek they want 80 bones for a set

Is there any reason for this? Because they use a shiny CNC machine to shape them?

[cail]

2nd choice is high-molecular polyethilene or polypropilene

those are basically the other two materials i want to look at..

1. polycarbonate (Makrolon or Lexan)
2. ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene (UHMW-PE)
3. Polypropylene copolymer

i think the Sflex is a rubber material with metal (titanal?) pieces inside.

you want to get the thickness right so that the stress distribution becomes uniform over the base area of the plate/riser.

[bobdea]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=200168388439

pretty sure the stuff I found was Hyzod like pictured here

[cail]

nice... hyzod was the previous name for makrolon

[Derf]

Here is what I know from experience:

Polycarbonate is usually sold in 3 thickness in renovations stores:
3mm (1/8"), 4.5mm (3/16") and 6mm (1/4")

Cutting boards are made from HDPE, or high density polyethylene, very common plastic.

Acrylic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate
HDPE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene
Polycarbonate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

[yyzcanuck]

I also try and educate riders on metal boards about the new feel of metal under there feet and encourage all metal board riders to try softer boots and bindings if they have the chance.

I've witnessed the progression of boot/binding changes with our National Team. Riders there have made nearly a 180 degree change in their equipment. As metal boards progressed, some riders have gone from the stiffest DeeLuxe 'team only' boots (INDY and Lemans 325's) to standard INDY, then Suzuka, now Track 325's and Track 700's. Binding selection changed too. All metal construction has been replaced with what might be considered soft or more forgiving plastic and Titanal.

I consider myself privileged to be able to ride the latest COILER metal boards due to my friendship with Bruce, to have the financial means to buy a Hangl-Spirig, VIST and S-Flex just to play with, and have the industry connections to allow me to use boots of my choice. I can say with all conviction... softer is the way to go if you can afford it. It means the whole package, not just the board, or the bindings, or the boots.

Now you might ask what do I actually ride? How about this... a 5 season old COILER RC180II, standard construction, Raichle (yeah, Raichle!!) SB325 boots, and F2 INTEC™ Ti bindings. Soft? Nope but it works as a package. If I ever make the transition to a new Titanal board construction it will include an isolation plate system, standard bindings and boots with more flex.

[cail]

what would be your complete setup if you had a new metal Coiler (plates, boots, bindings)?

[yyzcanuck]

Because we're the F2 & DeeLuxe distributor, it would most certainly be F2 Race Ti, S-Flex, Track 325. My only variation from that would possibly be INTEC™ Ti bindings to help alleviate any problems with my 'donuts for breakfast' habit!!
Does that mean the other manufacturers' equipment isn't suitable? Nope. I'm biased because of my industry position.

Oh, I almost forgot... of course I'd be using some of Fin's latest boot laces as suspenders to hold up my wool pants, duct tape to keep my mitts from falling apart and a grease/oil stained leather SkiDoo jacket!!

[Bordy]

It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

Haven broken a non metal board in similar fashion to metal ones, I think the problem may lie deeper than the surface. There is no doubt that the interface contribute to the problem but it is not the real culprit, I think.

I have seen old Volant boards dented and even bent and they never fail like the new generation of boards. I know a Penn transplant that was riding a bent volant for some time and wondered why his carving sucked and quickly corrected it by putting him on a Nidecker Tornado GS, the one with titanal.



Bola

www.allboardssports.com
1-303-415-1600

I think there is a huge difference between the volant stanless fiber glass construction and new titnal carbon fiber construction and also because of the camber profile on Kesslers in particuloar(and some prior and virus metal shapes) the new longer noses set back stances contribute much fore forces then ever before.

I had a local freind who Dowd had hooked up with a stack of the aggressions, I never really liked them becuase the tails were just to soft for my style of riding. But we did break a bunch , have them delam and dent. but not in the same way most current metal boards break.

I have of course snapped non metal boards also but the new titnal boards were breaking in almost the same place for every one.

[MUD]

It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

That would give you the theoretical answer...... After a HUGE amount of work.

Tons of variables! FEA works best when you can isolate variables.

I say, if the isolation plates work, go for it!

OR, you could always try and talk the manufactures into doing the work.

It would be a fun project though.

[Jamar]

I've witnessed the progression of boot/binding changes with our National Team. Riders there have made nearly a 180 degree change in their equipment. As metal boards progressed, some riders have gone from the stiffest DeeLuxe 'team only' boots (INDY and Lemans 325's) to standard INDY, then Suzuka, now Track 325's and Track 700's. Binding selection changed too. All metal construction has been replaced with what might be considered soft or more forgiving plastic and Titanal.

I consider myself privileged to be able to ride the latest COILER metal boards due to my friendship with Bruce, to have the financial means to buy a Hangl-Spirig, VIST and S-Flex just to play with, and have the industry connections to allow me to use boots of my choice. I can say with all conviction... softer is the way to go if you can afford it. It means the whole package, not just the board, or the bindings, or the boots.

Now you might ask what do I actually ride? How about this... a 5 season old COILER RC180II, standard construction, Raichle (yeah, Raichle!!) SB325 boots, and F2 INTEC Ti bindings. Soft? Nope but it works as a package. If I ever make the transition to a new Titanal board construction it will include an isolation plate system, standard bindings and boots with more flex.

Funny that's almost straight out of the Swoard equipment/set up page:
http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150
or
http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/mat.html
quote:

"Boot
Difficult to find really high-performance hardboots today. They are either too soft, either too hard, because the ankle joint is controlled by a totaly primitive system (usually free or blocked). The own material of the shell must bend itself (like with freestyle boots) and so, this doesn't allow a rigorous ankle rotation control.

A Brand (Nothwave) had understood it and put on the market in 1997 or 1998, two fabulous models (man and woman). The very stiff shell had an ankle joint controlled with an ingenious springs system with a lot of tuning possibilities. The foot, very well hold in a very comfortable inner shoe, was perfectly controlled thanks to the help of the springs which worked as calf muscle reinforcement. On the piste, the feeling was a bit like in the powder where the calf power is sufficient to vary the ankle canting while feeling totally safe, because the shell is stiff enough to prevent overbending.

Northwave boot

Unfortunately, the decrease of the alpine market forced this manufacturer to stop its production...

Those who follow the ISF Worldcup noticed perhaps that a lot of racers still use them, even the champions like the Schoch brothers (the yellow boots with black tong).
We take care of ours with love an devotion...

If you know a really high-performance hard-boot, please tell us, sothat we could test and advise it. The brand Deeluxe is not excellent but it has the merit to exist. We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum."

[dingbat]

We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum.

Which forum?

[Jamar]

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/...pic.php?t=2701

by the way, not ment to be us against them discussion again...just personal preferences. Ride how you want as long as you have a nice El Nina year!!!

Peace.

And now, back to our regular programing...bindings on Titanal boards...

[cail]

hey jamar, thanks for the info!

[anewell]

BlueB mentioned Teflon / PTFE -

You can get it in sheets from Small Parts Inc:

http://www.smallparts.com/products/d...ons/vt-vte.cfm

along with Delrin, UHMW Polyethelene, Polycarbonate, and other interesting materials too.

[MUD]

I wouldnb't use Teflon, it creeps BIG TIME. The pressure from the binding will cause it to flow. You will have a hard time keeping the bindings tight.

It may work for the purpose really well though, just keep an eye on the binding bolts.