into the demon's lair

[tex1230]

So I was in New York City today - and I wandered into the Burton store in SoHo...

The first thing I will say is that I really don't care one way or another about that company... But I know plenty of people around who think that Jake is the Bill Gates of snowboarding...Just the guy everyone loves to hate...

There were a couple of positive points about the shop - they have this cool display in the floors of some really classic boards - including a '77 Londonderry (blue) and an '81 Backyard roundtail... Just beautiful old boards.

They also had a pretty good selection of their boards...

enough of that....I hated this place!

first of all - some shmuck of a security guard stopped me from taking pics of the old boards...figure that one out?

second- most of the staff was clueless when I asked them about board construction, sidecut, etc...

third - and I think this has been said before - this is a "lifestyle shop", not a snowboard shop... It just makes me want to puke when I see some of the fashoin victims that populate that particular neighborhood dropping $1000+ on a technical Jacket because it matches their $500 faux vintage Jeans...
(my wife reminds me that we saw some chick in Manolo Blahniks walking down the street carrying a board - I'm not trying to judge, but why oh why did we let the fashionistas take over this sport?)

Fourth - and this is what I was really looking for - I checked out the top of Burton's board line, The Vapor...
That baby is light! - I didn't check the specs, but I'd say it weighs less than 5 lbs - seriously light. The problems I see in this $900 piece of aluminum and p-tex are: -In an effort to save weight, they have only 4 inserts per foot (3d system) giving you all of 3 stance width options...
-This Is a real noodle with an inconsistent flex pattern.
-the base looked pretty thin (you can see the core in a spot) and looks like it would be gone after 2 or 3 grinds...
-one other weight saving feature was lighter fiberglass layers...

Except for the weight, this really seemed like a low end board...and I know this isn't really the place where this discussion fits, but for those of you who still ride freestyle boards, can anyone explain why you'd drop that kind of coin on this boar?

Sorry for the rant...I just was very depressed after today and needed to vent!

[Jack Michaud]

Yes, it's all disgusting but.... on the other hand, if it helps Burton to stay #1, that's fine with me. I'd rather not have the #1 snowboard company in the world be a ski company.

[bobdea]

a few people that I trust when it comes to boards have said the vapor is a good board, I think that Bordy did as well but maybe that was the one from last year, forgot what that one was called but it costs less and has more wood in it, lots of folks speak highly of that one as well.

a store in NYC is bound to be full of dimwhits, if you are buying gear in NYC as oppossed to a place that has a ski area somewhat close people are buying for the bling factor over all else, Burton knows this.

[dantheman0177]

can anyone explain why you'd drop that kind of coin on this boar?


Quite simply - I wouldn't. I'd rather get a full custom from Prior or Donek and know that I had 1) exactly what I wanted, 2) top quality workmanship, 3) great after sale service, and 4) probably 300+ bikkies left in my pocket.

[jschal01]

That type of mainstreaming will benefit the DOneks, Coilers and Priors of the world, so long as it doesn't go so far as to make the mainstream sick of snowboarding as an image and move on to something else. Patagonia is a pretty core company in many ways, with great gear and knowledgeable staff, and they're just a couple blocks away.

Some of those people buying expensive outfits and, yes, Vapors, will then want the next level: a purely custom board. On to the niche manufacturers! This has happened a bit more in skiing where some niche companies produce awesome skis that do have still have a high fashion element due to their high sticker: Igneous is one current example, and every fashionista who buys a FFF for 8 days a year of heliskiing is helping a core company advance ski design within the sport at the same time.

For the Vapor itself: You can't evaluate a board in the shop. Did you shotgun sight along the edge too? :) Inconsistent flex? Different flex zones is a good thing in my book. Burton makes a really good product, I highly doubt it rides like a cheap noodle.

Basically, I'm selfishly thrilled that Burton's there and hope it goes well for them, that type of thing simply creates more opportunity for the rest of the sport.

[tex1230]

For the Vapor itself: You can't evaluate a board in the shop. Did you shotgun sight along the edge too? Inconsistent flex? Different flex zones is a good thing in my book. Burton makes a really good product, I highly doubt it rides like a cheap noodle.

Of course I sighted the edge...I've been doing this snowboard thing for a few years... :smashfrea

Different flex zones are good - I just question the logic of increasing the flex (inconsistently) from a soft nose to a stiff tail...seems like a recipe for disaster in a hard turn.

the kid selling it told me it was a great board, even for my size (6', 220lbs)

I think I would have folded that nose on the first turn

I don't dispute the quality of burton's overall line...I was simply wondering why anyone in their right mind would buy a mass production, relatively flimsy board for the price of a quiver...

[ak_rider]

It's Burton, that's why people buy it. You pay them lots of money so they can tell you what's cool and what you need :barf:

[jdgang]

I have been a burton boy since day one. Even with my alpine I have always gone the burton route....well untill next year since they dont make a alpine line anymore. Never had any problems with any of the equiment that I have bought in fact I still ride my Kelly 171 slopestyle and Twin (Ouija) 64 even now and again. As for who is going to buy the vapor...well not any pro's since none of them ride it in comp. What does that tell you? The people who will buy it will the the Paris Hiltons. People who only buy the most expensive thinking it is the best that money can buy. I myself checked one out at my local shop....this thing was so light I couldnt believe it and all I thought to myself was I would snap this thing in half the first time out!! and guess where they put the two they had all the way in the back corner....they now that in the area nobody is going to spend that kind of money for a board. I stop back at the end of the season and offer them 50$ for one...I tell you how it rides as my rock board

[jschal01]

"Different flex zones are good - I just question the logic of increasing the flex (inconsistently) from a soft nose to a stiff tail...seems like a recipe for disaster in a hard turn...I think I would have folded that nose on the first turn."

If you can't understand the logic of softer nose and stiff tail, both for turns and for landings, you can't really evaluate the board (though the tail on that board is not supposed to be that stiff) and basically need to learn more about flex patterns. On plates, yes you would fold it in half -- it is not designed for that. But, ride it in softboots and pressure away. This is a hardboot forum and it makes total sense to be focused on that, but that doesn't mean equipment intended for other uses needs to be evaluated through the same pair of glasses.

Keir among others does ride a Vapor in the pipe. It's not really intended for that, though, more park without rails and freestyle-oriented freeride, plus yes, it is also a premium item that will occasionally be bought for that reason, too. That's not a bad thing, and doesn't make it a bad board. In a couple years maybe they'll lower the price on that construction and release a version in a split, then it will be relevant, and a potential direect benefit, to splitboarders uses AT boots. If so, I think they'll want a shovel that deflects, not one that feels like it's race stock...(that reads like a wise-ass comment but I don't mean it that way and don't have the hang of the emoticons yet, just saying a soft nose can be a good thing).

Peace.

[Ninjette]

just when you thought things good not get any worse or better depending on how you look at it??- Burton is about to release its "Moto-powered Audex Cargo Jacket" complete with speakers in the hood and a Bluetooth control panel on your sleeve... $600 price tag

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000617065491/

although as a flask carrying female, I must admit that the "Liquid Lounger" sounds kinda cool
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000507021087/

btw for those of you who do not know what Manolo Blahniks (nor should you care)... they are ridiculously expensive womens shoes that start at about $500....... designed by a man....... go figure?? :rolleyes:

[Allee]

I guess it's true that if you're the big dog in the pen, that's all the excuse you need to get bashed! If people want to pay zillions of dollars for bags with a wine tool and jackets with Bluetooth and $1200 for a board (I saw a Vapor advertised for that here in Canada, I nearly fell over), then let them. There are also people that pay $2500 for Descente ski suits and $1000 a pair for skis, same thing.

If I'd rather spend my money on a decent set of Goretex pants and jacket and decent used alpine gear, good for me.

I bought a Skycap helmet for this season. Yes it's a Burton helmet. It fits and feels great, and that's all the criteria I need. :p

[Gecko]

I tried on the RED wired helmet a few days ago as I am looking (not real hard) for a replacement for my homemade stereo Boeri. No sooner did I put it on than my wife laughed and said that it looked to much like a Bullet head

[bobdea]

the burton jacket is way more reasonable than the spyder jacket, the old ipod jacket that does not have blue tooth and the controls that are the same as the spyder jacket is a good jacket, my ex girl friend has one and loves it.
she got it for 150 at the burton factory sale a couple years ago.

[dantheman0177]

I tried on the RED wired helmet a few days ago as I am looking (not real hard) for a replacement for my homemade stereo Boeri. No sooner did I put it on than my wife laughed and said that it looked to much like a Bullet head

I have one of those myself and agree they look a bit stupid. BUT, they are bloody comfortable and warm. The only problem I have had is that the front lip of the helmet affects the top vents in my goggles, so any time the snow is a bit on the wet side (which is pretty much all the time down here in Oz) my goggles fog up. I have good goggles and good helmet so don't want to really replace either, but I think I will have to do one or the other. Or alternatively just stop bothering with riding in Australia!

[scotts.Scheinman]

Yes, it's all disgusting but.... on the other hand, if it helps Burton to stay #1, that's fine with me. I'd rather not have the #1 snowboard company in the world be a ski company.

Volkl makes great skiies from what i am told and they make greeat snowboards.The one think i have against burton is the weird 3 hole pattern.

[ncermak]

the vapor rocks...

I rode it last spring at the demo show, and loved it. if I could afford the 900 price tag, I'd take 2. also, the graphic ('cuz I know how much that improves the ride) on it is insane.

Jack...get over the ski snowboard thing. who cares who the #1 is, as long as the boards rock, and the sport continues to progress. Skis have been around a long time. obviously ski companies have managed to do something right.

[tex1230]

Watch out, Ski companies....
The snowboarders are coming to get you!
http://www.lib-tech.com/news/2005/10/nas/nas.htm

http://www.donek.com/01_products/skis.htm

How do the ski companies feel about this??

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, who cares, ski company, snowboard company, windsurfer company (Mistral used to make some good stuff IIRC) - if the gear is good, it's good. Fact is, Burton makes nothing I'm interested in.

[Phil]

Yeah, who cares, ski company, snowboard company, windsurfer company (Mistral used to make some good stuff IIRC) - if the gear is good, it's good.

My Burton BMC 171W was my favorite (softie) freeride deck of all time. It was one of the few boards that was wide enough and it was an acceptable length.

It was also stiffer than my Volkl RT that I was sportin' at the time!

Unfortunately, they do not make such a board any more- nothing even close. Oh, well, I guess I'll have to take a look at that Sasquatch.:)

[jschal01]

If Burton tried to make a board for people with >12 boot sizes these days, their CFO would probably feel compelled to quit and take up telemarking or something. :) That is not a knock on the company, just a reality of their business model I think.

[tex1230]

You can ride just about any board if you're willing to go to 60+ degrees!

[Jack Michaud]

Jack...get over the ski snowboard thing.

Never! I'm still boycotting K2 for making that stupid Gyrator. ;)

[tex1230]

Worst Board Ever...
K2 Gyrator, Look Lamar Trick Stick, Kemper Screamer, or Burton "Mystery" Air?

Jack - did you have the Gyrator or the "limited edition Gyrator HP"?

(I guess I'd have to add Black Snow to that list too...)

[jdgang]

the new burton dominant slick has to be the worst board ever. made for rails only the the edges are recess into the board....so your effective edge is 0!!!

[Phil]

It is only recessed between your feet, though, right? That board has actually been out for a few seasons. I have had some friends ride it.

I don't get it though, I have never caught an edge on a rail. It seems to me that if your center of mass is downhill from your board on a rail, whether you have an edge or not, you are going down.

[jschal01]

Regarding the Dominant Slick, you're viewing it in terms of all-around freeriding. It, along with the Streetdweller and a few other rail-specific boards, is just very specialized. If there's a market for that type of specialized product, so be it. Phil's point on catching edges is why most rail riders now take the approach of simply going with a 2 or 3 degree base bevel rather than dulling their edges completely, I think the real issue is with burrs on the rail though in terms of edges actually "catching."

It is possible to look at Burton's stable of boards -- maybe 20 or so models this year? -- and say a lot of this is marketing driven. Fish, split, freeride, all mountain freestyle, and symmetrical twin is basically what they and any other board company without an alpine lineup is offering. I would never get the Dom Slick, and for me to spend the $$ to get something like a Vapor I'd want bombproof construction instead of lightweight due to my preferences. But if the market supports 3-4 years of offering the Dom SLick, it's obviously making someone happy enough, so while it doens't answer my needs I can't say it's a bad product.

I'm not going to buy a GS board either anytime soon, and based on number of riders the GS board is probably as specialized if not more so than a rail board, but that doesn't mean they're a dumb idea.

[Derf]

I'm still confused about the softboot market, so much board! In my opinion, for softboots, 4 models are enough:

Freestyle (soft flex)
Freestyle wide (soft flex)
Freeride/BX (medium to stiff)
Freeride/BX wide (medium to stiff)

Maybe you could add powder or big mountain boards, but these are more of a niche within the softboot market. So that makes 6.

[diver john]

You need not worry we will never be fashionable. Beautiful yes, but not fashionable

[NateW]

My first board was a Gyrator. Foam cores seemed like a great idea, until the idea had been around long enough for the early cores to break down... Like, two seasons, was it?

My guess is the ski companies are looking at Lib's "Narrow Ass Snowboards with Magne-Traction" and pissing themselves. With laughter, I mean. :rolleyes:

The Donek skis, on the other hand...

[ak_rider]

the "edgeless" rail boards are not that way to stop from catching an edge so to speak. If you try to boardslide and are not centered, as mentioned, the metal edge pushes down on the metal rail and the board slides out really fast, with just p-tex it's easier to do boardslides. you can be off balance and not end up with a rail in your ass in .01 seconds. basically making tricks easier for people who cant do them properly. this could probably have been explained better but i tried. all this snow in summit co must be affecting my brain :p

[bobdea]

other than the grocer and the litigator

but the magne traction idea seems to be valid as you don't go too nuts with it.
a couple ski companies played with doing the same thing but only at the nose and tail of the ski, volkl(though its been ten years it might have been another company) actually played with elongating the area that the sidecut ends and then the nose of the ski starts along with very slight varations at nose of the ski as well.
lib tech skis I bet will do great, the only huge growth really going on in the ski world is with the park stuff and that is where people who are in love with lib tech tend to hang.
they have the core image that the pants low, big headphones crowd love, one area that none of the big ski companies really can grab, in other words lib tech has park monkey street cred.

I think its great for the ski industry because it is giving some chances for small companies to grow and even some more to start up giving the big guys competition, and thats good for the skiers.

Honestly, if you market skis the right way skiers will buy anything the thing that is changing is that what the youngens want is getting closer to the freestyle snowboard scene.
Snowboarders will buy anything as well, look at forum and geenyus, those boards are crap but they have a image that people dig, the thing that makes me snicker about that is the folks rag on burton tend to love forum and geenyus but they got bought up by the big B awhile back.

If I lived in the park anything that kept a rail away from my tailbone I would welcome, just like I welcome boards with 16+ meter sidecut because I like to be able still carve if I open it up a little.

hell, even if I were riding pow allot edgless in the middle would be fine on a giant swallow tail or something, think about the number of boards that get edges yanked out by hidden rocks on pow days, without edges between the feet you would probably only end up with a core shot that is repairable as opposed something that is hardly if at all.
Maybe it would even save you from taking a nasty tumble in the trees.

[pnwradar]

I saw a couple last year fishing "my" river, looked like they drove straight from the Eddie Bauer store downtown. Each of them was wearing and waving a few grand in gear, and completely oblivious to the fish. Looked like they were having fun regardless. I fish the same water with ratty sneakers, waving a hand-me-down rod, and I doubt I have any less fun. And, given a better budget I expect I'd be looking at handmade bamboo not the latest hi-tech Sage rod.

I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes? When I see their boards lined up at the store, they all look the same except for the topsheet -- which is really how their target market shops for boards. I'm so far removed from their target market, it's no wonder I'd rather hang out with tele riders than Burton riders.

-jon-

[Scorpio]

I was speaking with an action sports consultant who stategically advises companies in the action sports industry and he made an interesting comment.

"One piece of bad news- this is a tough industry right now. Especially in hard goods, making money is difficult. Lacking any significant product differentiation not based on marketing, price is important. Big companies, like VF industries, are getting to be more and more important. It’s not so much the action sports industry any more as the fashion business. What use to be considered big companies in action sports are now smaller companies in this much larger playing field. I’ve been suggesting that if your revenues are under $1billion, you may have trouble competing at this new level unless your niche is very, very well defined."

So, although we chastize burton and like companies, they are still about business, for better or worse.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes?
Friend of mine runs a skate shop in town, he tells me the skateboards are darn near a loss leader - he makes all his money in clothes and shoes. He might make $5 selling a $70 deck, but his profit on the fashion is probably over 100%. He also tells me that only 5% of people buying skate shoes actually skate in them.

[jdgang]

Friend of mine runs a skate shop in town, he tells me the skateboards are darn near a loss leader - he makes all his money in clothes and shoes. He might make $5 selling a $70 deck, but his profit on the fashion is probably over 100%. He also tells me that only 5% of people buying skate shoes actually skate in them.


When I went to go get my shield jacket the guy at the local shop logged into the dealer section of the website...Price for shop 145$ price to me (msrp) 290$ markup 100%....and they (burton) didnt even have any in stock

[Scorpio]

Aside from the ridiculous markup, the replenishment cycle for clothing and accessories versus hardgoods is more frequent. A person might buy maybe one board every couple of years if that. Whereas that same person might get a new shirt, jacket, leash etc... every season if not multiple times in that season. Money is def in the soft goods.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Fortunately for my buddy, skate decks are disposables these days, so he'll probably sell a half-dozen decks and several pairs of shoes a year to a hardcore skater.

[jschal01]

Again, thank God for the fashion sales for keeping the skateshops, etc. open and available to those who actually skate, ride, etc. We lost probably the best indoor mini in southern CT when a local skateshop went out of business because they weren't moving enough softgoods, in part.

"I wonder how much money Burton makes from their boards, compared to how much they make from clothes? When I see their boards lined up at the store, they all look the same except for the topsheet -- which is really how their target market shops for boards. I'm so far removed from their target market, it's no wonder I'd rather hang out with tele riders than Burton riders."

What's a Burton rider? Some people ride their splits and almost never ride a lift. Some people hike the park with their twin and almost never rider a lift. Some people hike the pipe...frequently very different fashion between those three groups, but a very similar approach to the sport in many ways in terms of the hiking and what they get out of it. Some people ride a Triumph and never touch the park. Some people ride a Custom and ride everything.

Spend a day in the trees on a Fish and you may think Burton still has some soul. The Fish is pretty close to that handmade bamboo rod in some ways.