qualifications?

[philfell]

I was just wondering how many people here have had any real training/instruction on riding alpine snowboard equipment, (other than AASI because we all know that they don't do anything to advance our sport)? I read alot of post here and it seems that most of the technique being spewed is either extremely out dated or is in conflict in what is curently being used on the world cup level. I know some of you are going to say "I don't race, nor do I have aspirations to race", but lets be real you are riding equipment modeled after world cup racing equipment, toned down to you own personal level or needs.

I'm not trying to start some sort of online fight, I'm hoping in the long run we can further everyone riding, by not having unqualfied people who think they know what they are talking about post technique that they don't really understand, but have simply read somewhere. And maybe to get some people thinking, "do I really understand what I am saying and am I qualified to say it. Or am I simply telling them what a buddy told me while I was teaching myself".

It's time to be real with you own riding/knowledge skills. How can you get any better when you aren't honest with yourself.

[Bobby Buggs]

Geezzzz Phil, Lets break out the Boxing Gloves;)

[mirror70]

Well, Phil, you seem to be confusing racing with snowboarding. Racing is a subset of snowboarding and uses specialized techniques that are not applicable to snowboarding in general.

We are not riding "toned down world cup equipment" any more than the car you drive is really a toned down Formula One car. Believe it or not, race cars and street cars require different techniques to be driven properly. Driving on the street is also completely different from driving on a race course. The same is true with snowboarding.

When we are out having fun on the slopes, we are not screaming down a race course, flying through gates, giving 110% because we can since we're only riding for 90seconds. When we race, we aren't laying out nice carves, holding them long enough to carve our downhill edge, or screwing around and throwing down Eurocarves. These are all bad race technique, but are great for everyone else.

Perhaps if you knew more about racing and carving, you would have understood this before calling anyone out?

[k_t]

This link should get you to a thread in this forum that should answer your question(s).


http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=653

Take Care,
kt

[cmc]

but maybe Phil means that too many people post how to ride a certain way or they state that this piece of equipment rules or is the best and they have no or poor riding skills to back up what they say.


Maybe he is saying that it can be misleading for someone new to the site to read posts on what to get for good equipment....joey hardbooter who has little experience raves about his new"board " saying how great it is when in reality Joey doesnt have the skills, experience or qualifications to make such a statement and mislead the masses.

It's not what I said but what I gathered that Phil was trying to say...and if so I agree with him.

[jeffnstefanie]

I am not the person that should be answering this question. I just started carving and I suck. I got interested in carving when I saw a guy on a run at Waterville valley and it was the most beautiful and graceful thing I have ever seen on snow. And it looked like fun. I am not the most coordinated individual and I don't know if I will ever be so smooth and graceful, but I will tell you this, I will have fun doing it and if you have any pointers that you can give me then I will thank you very much regardless if you are a certified $80.00 an hour "snowboard instructor" or you saw a good video. You can all correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that snowboarding was not falling down. All the rest is a bonus !

[jeffnstefanie]

of your member, it is how many times you use it that makes it a non junior.

[dragonfly jones]

Phil Phil Phil - you coming to the Boat for the RTC. If so I'll see you there.

[cmc]

started it, I just agreed with him.:D

[eddie]

I don't ride with or know Phill, but I ride with someone whom he does ride with and get schooled everytime. And from what I know, he (Phil) is qualified to make that statement.

What I don't understand with most people's posts is that there are a number of people who seem to take things personally, like their ridding is being personally attacked. (I know mine was once, I wasn't offended but since I couldn't sleep that night I thought it would be funny to reply; several times.)

Ever since I have been working hard to learn the "racing" technique with someone who use to race for a living, my time spent on the slopes has been much more enjoyable. When I take out my powder board I am more confident to ride into the tracked up bumpy runs at faster speed. I know that with my feet planted in the proper stance I will skip across the bumps while turning and yet still move the direction I want to go and get nowhere near off balance. I can ride threw tighter tree runs with more confidence, drop ledges, boot over cat tracks and yet still know that because I have put in the time to learn the "racing" technique I have a very good chance I will land on my feet and keep going, honestly, I did all this all today.

I am not saying that you should be tucked while riding or when making transitions you should use the cross threw technique. What I am saying is that when you take the time to learn, things just come more naturally when encountering obstacles, therefore, you fall less which can, and will, result in more fun.

Yes, formula one cars drive different than the sedan that joe schmo drives, but, if you can drive a race car, you would adapt driving technique to your regular everday driving. The only way to understand is to learn this for yourself. Go out, have fun, but learn something new everytime.


Phill, I hear you have access to riding The Canyons.(?) If you ever come that way let me know, I want to ride with some more aggressive riders, and let Billy know so we can all play.;)

[philfell]

Eddie, I'll be at the Canyons on Sun. and Mon. e-mail me at philip.fell@lycos.com for more info.

CMC gets it....

dragonfly pimp daddy jones, I'll be at the boat on Sat.

[philfell]

Mirror70 wrote- "holding them long enough to carve our downhill edge,"......" These are all bad race technique, but are great for everyone else."

This is prime example of what I'm talking about, at the initation of a carved turn, in or out of a race course, you are going to be on your downhill edge.

Saying most people here aren't on toned down world cup product, and that their boards take different technique to ride, is silly. I know many people who race at a very high level on production boards, the very same boards that many people here have listed in their quiver. Do you think that Donek, Coiler, Prior, etc. are not using what they have learned from their team racers in the boards that they make for you?

Yeah laying out fast carves is fun and when you are out freeriding you do alot of things that you wouldn't do in a race course, I'm not here saying that. I'm here trying to have people take a good look in the mirror and be honest with their own skills and ability to give sound advice.

[Baka Dasai]

<ol>
<li><p>The expectation that only "qualified" people will, or should, give advice is totally unrealistic. This is an open forum, and every Tom, Dick and Harry is gonna have their say, and a lot of it is going to be rubbish. That's the way all open forums are. It's up to the reader to figure out the good advice from the bad. Whinging about this situation is just pissing into the wind.
<li><p>The better course of action is to throw your own advice into the mix, rather than complaining that everybody else's advice is wrong. Accept that you're going to be just one voice among many, and that there's nothing you can do to raise your voice above the "unqualified" hordes. Convince us with the power of your arguments, rather than trying to knock everybody else's advice.
</ol>

[dragonfly jones]

There are some kooks on BOL and there some serious riders and racers that post messages. Some of the comments are tripe and some are spot on.

We all learn from each other and when someone is offering some BS up they more often than not get flamed and corrected.

I have seen what bad coaching / instruction can do to people and I am fortunate to have come up with some good coaches and riders teaching me how to ride, coach and be a better person because of it, and I am also lucky use the information correctly and smartly with the guys I have coached in the past and will coach in the future.

Really all we can do - you, me, Kent, CMC et all is to pass along the good when we can and help minimize/correct any faulty information when it rears it's ugly little head.

See you at the Boat.

[philfell]

Baka, I realize it's an open forum, I didn't start this forum to say so-and-so should or shouldn't post. I just want people to take a look inside and think about their own knowledge, is it legit, or is it just spewed from another source.

Not to go too far off on my own tangent, but a few years ago I made some comments on this forum about a certain peice of equipment. I received many, many e-mails telling me how off I was and that I couldn't relate what I was saying because my racing background and it didn't apply to general carving. Now the peice of equipment that I was talking about has changed in the direction I felt at the time needed to go, and the same people who wrote me all that hate mail are now praising the new innovations!

No equipment is perfect, no technique is absolute. Hopefully they change and evolve together, it's up to us to keep up.

[dragonfly jones]

Fo sho playboy, I'ma have to fill up your pimp with some Hendog and we'll show'em how we do it intermountian style.

Believe that.

[mirror70]

I guess carving the downhill edge was a bad example - that's just simple geometry that dictates that. I was thinking more of holding a carve long enough that you go uphill, and using that to control speed rather than sliding.

Race technique and freeride technique are two distinctly different styles that are usually at odds with each other. It seems you have more of a problem with how people teach the fundamentals - but those apply to snowboarding in general, not just racing.

Yes, Donek and others do learn from their racers. They learn what not to do with freecarve boards. If racing were really a useful development tool for non-race boards, then Burton would still be racing. Oddly enough, Burton doesn't race, but their boards keep getting better. Go figure.

Have you ever tried to ski on real world cup race skis? It's neither easy nor fun. The difference between a true race board and a "fun" board (like most people on Bomber ride) isn't nearly as pronounced, but it is definitely there.

Anybody who rides better than I do is qualified to advise me. Now, whether or not they are any good at conveying the information they need to is an entirely different matter. That does not, however, change the fact that they have something to teach me.

Maybe your main gripe with most people is that they suck at converting ideas into words? They are bad at teaching, but not snowboarding.

[Mike T]

Keep in mind that input from people just learning the sport can be valuable to other people who are just learning... for example, one might offer up tidbits on what got them over a certain hump, or a piece of equipment that helped them progress, or which technique they found helpful to learn.

Having said that it's probably helpful for people to state their background when offering advice. (Me - third season of alpine, still learning fast, but consider myself a high intermediate).

I personally have found lots of useful advice on this site not only from the "known experts" but from others at the same stage of development as me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another thing to consider is that this is still a very young sport. So while I appreciate the advice that Phil has to give, I also take into consideration that he has been going through the equipment and technique transitions the same as the rest of us who've been riding a long time (albeit at a much higher performance level). What's "right" now may be wrong (or more accurately, not as good) 5 years from now. The only thing we can do is try out the bits of advice and see if they work.

And I agree with Baka - the only way to approach this for you guys that really have the goods is to keep consistently offering sane advice. It takes a lot of patience to grit your teeth and keep from posting something like "my list of qualifications is X, Y and Z, and the rest of you lot are idiots", because as soon as you do that most of your audience tunes out. For one thing, because it comes across as arrogant and for another because there's no good way to prove or verify those credentials. I know this first-hand because I face similar circumstances on various forums related to Japanese swordsmanship. Persistence wins out eventually.

[slopetool]

Lets all stop writing and start riding. Love you guys who think too much. Lets get out there the storms are subsiding.:D

[Bordy]

Phil is right on the money in many aspects. And after chatting with him I feel his pain and think his gripe is legit.

Those of you who made “Its a young sport” comments , your wrong. Do your home work come back later the sport is on par with ski technology and thanks to “racing techniques” we know how to put the most pressure on the edge of a board with the current resources available to date!

How about Burton doesn’t race but there boards keep getting better. Wrong you prove your lack of knowledge with several more statements. You need to figure out that THE US SNOWBOARD TEAM. has the best technique and training facilities available, they are trying to take the fastest racer and make them faster! It is a Olympic sport, we do dump a lot of money (not nearly enough though ) into control and rider development as well as the most recent training techniques. When you learn to take a snowboard to the very edge of control to create power to drive and quest for speed then you will understand how that knowledge can apply to any gear or terrain. And not at your local hill that you always ride but on any hill any were. Feel this brother, Free riders that can do what they want usually become pros. And pros do the RD for Companies. There are still Burton Alpine board being made. You just can’t get one. And Burton test all the gear it makes with there team. There has been big advancement in the soft boot and board world due to hard boot and RACING input. But also boards develop from input by all levels or riders at demos and test sessions as well as time tested, and material availability and technologies.

I Know the point Phil is trying to make , so does Dragon Fly Jones. We have been to the show. And now some of us still get to go as coaches.

When we talk we should not have to defend our selves. WE ARE GIVING YOU PRO RIDER ADVISE. Not Canadian junior national champion advise That means we have been coached at the pro level. Whose coaches do you think are better. You local hill or one that travels with the tour? (If your home mtn team travels with the tour this is a easy question).

If you were a Nascar fan and some ex pro racer came to your local auto club web page with driving tips would you tell them how to drive or listen to there “STYLE of driving and use it?

If your smart you say thank you for they guy visiting the site and sharing his love of cars and driving fast with you. And do what you choose with it.

Why not take the time to say thanks to people who come to this site with more knowledge then most of you get from all the shops in your area and way more knowledge then your local guy unless he was a pro RACER!

Some of us love the sport of snowboarding so much that we enjoy sharing that love with you. Its not up to you to know who we are. But if we say ex pro or pro, ask us what our level of knowledge is we love to talk shop that's why we are here!

Every one I deal with at the shop I work at including employees, are less knowledgeable then any pro and it is one of the best shops in the nation with some of the most knowledgeable employees in the biz. But when I talk gear, board construction , Ride or feel they all stop talking and listen. Everyone leaves our shop with more knowledge then they came in with that how it works!

Phil’s point about bindings kills me, When he tried to say there was some features available in the TD That he as a pro racer felt were not conducive to his type, and many other riders needs you told him to go blow! I jumped into the ring and tried to share Phil’s ideas of the bomber vs race plate debate as a bomber rider my hate e-mail were less but still I received them as well. I had this discussion around the table with other pro rider and coaches and they felt the same Phil shares this info with you all and you still hacked him up. Some shared the lets just all have fun and ride what ever vibe. Many of the same posters that praise the bigger base plate and dampening of the TD2 Flamed Phil a few years back for the same Ideas! Ideas shared by many in the racing community. Ideas Phil Shared with you lucky Folks on BOL. Thanks Phil!

Many of the tips on this Open forum. Can be helpful to any one. Point being if you answer a post please honest about your skill level to the rider you may be hurting instead of helping!

I know there are a lot of folks here with cyber riding skills. Many have a wonderful gift to share but not the talent to do.

Phil is saying how about a little respect for those of use that have talent and do and share!

Just because I can mix paint and put it on a brush and dabble it on canvas does not make me a great artist. I can tell some one else how to do all of the steps and they may paint a masterpiece!

Any advise helps but tell it like it is! I found when I was at the level last year that ... But some time its more fun to say, Dude What you need to do is...

Keep it real means just that!








;)

[dragonfly jones]

Bordy,

Thanks.

Define, Explain, Clarify, Reason and cleaned it up. You hit it out of the park. Hopefully the readers of your post will really think about what has been said in total and not flame you or anyone else.

This is just snowboarding the thing we love and care for like a small child, we want the best for it watching it grow, showing the way, teaching lessons, praising, punishing, pushing and standing back and letting it learn it's own lessons. At some point it matures and figures things out, but you always come back home for advice, some home cooking and pat on the back for being who and what you are, never forget where you came from, it helps you keep moving forward.

Listen up kids, the caring and feelings are what you should key on along with the words of those that came before you.

Happy new year - keep learning and growing and explore your boundries and leap off the edge sometimes to see how far you can go.

[Matt D]

Whoa, this thread is intence.

I just wanted to say I'm certified to teach alpine :cool:

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Bordy
Those of you who made “Its a young sport” comments , your wrong. Do your home work come back later

The first snowboards that were more than toys appeared in the early 80s (FWIW, I've been riding since '86). That makes this sport a little over 20 years old. Young. It has, as you say, the advantage of major borrowing from ski technology and technique and modern athletic training methods, so the progression has been quick, but overall it's pretty young. For example, racing-wise, it certainly isn't anywhere close to skiing as far as maturity and performance are concerned.

See, I'd love to listen to you - I think you have a lot to contribute. But your aggressive, "everybody shut up and listen to ME", style just turns me off.

[Pre School Rider]

I was just rereading this thread,and found that there's nothing specific about what is being posted,right or wrong.Curious,that...Hmm,anyhow,I know I've been indirectly accused of using 'outdated' teaching ideas on several occassions(not necessarily online,just in certain circles),yet I've coached some folk who have little things like X-Games and U.S. Open placings and wins as verification that I'm doing something right.Meanwhile,there's a few of us instructors who would love to see the 'dumbing down' of the teaching system reversed,but not made overcomplicated in that process.What a good local instructor brings to a customer,and what a good regional coach brings to the competitor should hopefully have some common threads of truth that inspire the student to higher realms of performance.Yet,I do see a disparity in that message.I used to get riders who had had really awful instruction,and numerous bad habits to boot;It's twice the work to get someone to Unlearn than from starting from scratch and having it done right.I've also run into coaches who use certain techniques(*as they should;A good coach should have a plan,a favorite set of techniques,etc,that's viable,and proven to use for the benefit of the student.),yet they also overlook other ways and means of improving the riding skills for their students Simply Because Of Opinion,not because such+such a technique is wrong or unobtainable.Thus,the Bias Against Hardboots runs very deep in the current thinking of those who have,or soon will,write the Instruction Manuals for this nation.I've long since quit being at the 'bar-table' discusssions on these issues,as I have not the money nor ability to suck up the Status Quo that's required to change the minds of those who have slid into the positions of being Instructional Authors.Nope,instead,I swim about in the muck ONLINE,and have found that the give+take here has instead allowed me the FREEDOM to say what I mean.It also has put me in my place,and rightfully so on occassion! I get from these sites a very good 'feedback' sense of what's working,and what's not,and THAT improves my ability to relate to my customers.I try to keep an open mind,and yet I hold onto what I've seen that works.That's better in my mind than having two-trick-pony instructors hold what dear close to their chests,never allowing any other peer-members a glimsp of that hand.Exams within AASI are done EXACTLY that way.You have to 'play by the rules' to get the next level of Certification.So,for me,I've wasted 16 years getting my 'credentials' sorted out to fit in an establishment that won't pay me enough to live on,even if I take that pay as "seasonal" employment.I was already HERE,RIDING a full decade before before I could even start as an Instructor,and oddly enough the SAME SKIERS that used to tell me I couldn't ride "their" mountain are still at the top of the PSIA/AASI pryamid.That is why I've put my money into USASA as a coach.I've still got some of the 'former planker' crowd to deal with,but it's now a newer ball game.So,Instructors,Coaches that find they're not being well represented,or kept up-to-date,or being 'sold out' by the local resort,please think about what YOU OWN,and just what the VALUE of Your Knowledge is. As my old sticker on my old 'teaching hack' board said; "Teaching the ART of Surfin' on Snow Since back-in-the-Day" ...

[Bordy]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
The first snowboards that were more than toys appeared in the early 80s (FWIW, I've been riding since '86). That makes this sport a little over 20 years old. Young. It has, as you say, the advantage of major borrowing from ski technology and technique and modern athletic training methods, so the progression has been quick, but overall it's pretty young. For example, racing-wise, it certainly isn't anywhere close to skiing as far as maturity and performance are concerned.

See, I'd love to listen to you - I think you have a lot to contribute. But your aggressive, "everybody shut up and listen to ME", style just turns me off.

I could tell you that people have been sliding side ways on “gear since as early as 1920 if you would like some proof there is some great old school footage in a Warren Miller video called tweaked and twisted in which Jake Carpenter. Shows off some of his collection. the first issued patent was well before the Eighties! But I could say the earth is young compared to the galaxy and we could talk about it some more. But since I use a shut up and listen approach I just come right out with it! I’m stoked you have been riding since 86, In your 17 years of riding how much work have you done in board RD how many companies have made your snowboards to your skill level. Because if you have you may have noticed how quickly your young sport has grown What was a bunch of cats playing in the snow in the early 80’s as you so wrongly put it again.( I’m not sure when my Skurfers and Skifers were built must have been in the 80’s and all my friend that started riding in the 70’s are going to be angry when I tell them they must not have been!) Building jumps knee high and turning board with a rope on the front to Ross Powers 21 feet out of a superpipe and dudes sticking 1440’s not to mention how easy it is to turn alpine boards with out a rope!

O-kay how about the Racing maturity level World cup competition is the best of the best Guys and girls riding the best gear on the best hills in the most challenging courses. Gear being made with the best rider input. You say also that “For example, racing-wise, it certainly isn't anywhere close to skiing as far as maturity and performance are concerned.” Shape skis and the major changes in ski technologies are based off snowboard design. Ski Performance has improved because of snowboarding. Also snowboard has matured beyond Ski racing parameters with new styles such as, boarder cross, and slope style, not to mention the Half pipe! Ski areas have parks because of snowboarding as well. And stubby gates and triangle panels are all thanks to the progressive sport of alpine racing.

Neil I’m sure there is some thing you have spent lots of time doing that you are very knowledgeable about (like Sword fighting) I am in the snowboard business have been since you started riding I know my stuff. Like any good business man. I’m sorry that you think I deliver it as shut up and listen but take it for what its worth!

[dragonfly jones]

Wow wow wow.

Is this getting a little too serious, B2 I do not believe that there was any doubt by anyone that you know your stuff.

Phil struck a cord with everyone with this one and it's always good to think things through. Your right about boards riders bindings and boots.

I think what happens is that people see a subject they are passionate about and the flood gates open with emotion.

I certainly know whats' what and I thank you for your thinking man's responses. Intellegent and to the point, the problem with writing is that - while the content is right on the point - the audience can talk things and interpet them to be harsh or mean spirited. I know that was not your intent, cause I know you, some of the others reading this have not had the pleasure of your company and they will extrapolate what your saying as a negative.

Now as I said, I am with you on this, so let's see what's said in reply to your reply.

[eddie]

It has, as you say, the advantage of major borrowing from ski technology and technique and modern athletic training methods, so the progression has been quick, but overall it's pretty young.

Was it not the snowboard that first developed the sidecut and how to use it?

I rented skis once (several years ago) to hang out with my aunt on the slopes and the rent tech was telling me to try the "shaped" ski because it was easier, assuming I would suck, and then rented "traditional" skis with better boots to my aunt and talking it up like they are better for the experienced skier. The first day I ever rode skis I was passing my aunt riding switch (I'll be fair, she isn't that good). My point is that skiing got schooled by snowboard technology so your defense is weak.

Again, I don't understand why you have to take this stance against experienced riders. You can just say, okay, I see your point, but I don't believe in it so I'll just have to agree to disagree.
In fact, you're proving their point by continuing to fight back. They may be throwing their plate in your face right now but on the mountain I have met many well experienced riders who love to share their knowledge.

How does that phrase go again? Listen twice as much as you speak. You may see it in a different light after you have relaxed.

(After I finished this I see Bill was busy writing the same point at the same time)

[Maciek]

Originally posted by philfell
I was just wondering how many people here have had any real training/instruction on riding alpine snowboard equipment, (other than AASI because we all know that they don't do anything to advance our sport)? I read alot of post here and it seems that most of the technique being spewed is either extremely out dated or is in conflict in what is curently being used on the world cup level. I know some of you are going to say "I don't race, nor do I have aspirations to race", but lets be real you are riding equipment modeled after world cup racing equipment, toned down to you own personal level or needs.

I'm not trying to start some sort of online fight, I'm hoping in the long run we can further everyone riding, by not having unqualfied people who think they know what they are talking about post technique that they don't really understand, but have simply read somewhere. And maybe to get some people thinking, "do I really understand what I am saying and am I qualified to say it. Or am I simply telling them what a buddy told me while I was teaching myself".

It's time to be real with you own riding/knowledge skills. How can you get any better when you aren't honest with yourself.


To tell you the ruth, Phil, I "read something" and experimented a lot by now. and I have found that certifiied people actually not always know what they are talking about. That's the fact. Skiing and snowboarding is a matter of physics. There are very good books to explain that... much better than many instructors. Instructors are on slopes to help general public that does not need or want to read a lot. If someone is not into it then instructor may help in avoiding frustrations. I took my fiirst lesson with instructor from Austria who actually gave me all basics (including some psyhological aspects that he mentioned).

Qualifications are best expressed in results. If you can put a person on right track of snowboarding or skiing that proves enough qualification, but if someone wants to progess fast that certainly the person may need help of highly qualified instructor like for example Eric (PSR).

I have found some mistakes in books written by associations for instructor certification. Am I certified? No. How about that? You need to know physics or have some great book not neccesarily written by associated examiner or president of association.

Currently, I have only one student (successful) - my wife who can carve after my instruction to avoid mistakes that I made myself in the past. But I also used video taping to correct my mistakes and that was rather average replacement to someone who could peek at my technique and give me some hint.

So basically that is about another person helping as we cannot see ourselves when riding.

I have mixed feeling about certification... and if I decide to go this way it will probably be somewhere in Austria or Switzerland if possible (probably not in the USA).

[Jack Michaud]

Someone said that racing is a subset of snowboarding. Actually, it is the other way around. Snowboarding is a subset of racing. A good racer already knows how to freecarve, and snowboard darn well in general, but a freecarver does not necessarily know how to race. (whether pipe/park riding qualifies as actual "snowboarding" is a different argument)

There are certain race techniques that don't get used in freecarving because they are for the purposes of sheer speed and crash prevention. But make no mistake, a good racer can and does use any of our freecarving techniques - and then some.

To answer the original question in this thread, I was a part-time professional instructor (always in hardboots) from the fall of '93 to spring of '97. I was trained by someone I consider to be a true master, Erik Beckman. I did not seek PSIA or AASI certification because I didn't see any value in it beyond what I was already getting from Erik. Oh yeah - and I've been snowboarding since '88, carving since '90, and hardbooting since '91.

I'd like to think that I help to improve the signal/noise ratio here, but if not I'm always open to constructive criticism.

As for the reference to the TD2, it is indeed intended to offer more of a Race-Plate feel (to put it vaguely) via the soft and medium e-rings. However this flexibility is executed in a controlled, predictible, and reliable manner. With the race plate, you never knew how far up the stress/strain curve you were going. A heavy and/or very aggressive carver could easily pass beyond the elastic region into the very short plastic region, and then to failure. If not that, the bindings would eventually work-harden and fail anyway.

Hope everyone had a great holiday,
-Jack

[willywhit]

This is the best thread in a long time and exactly why I "waste " so much time here. There is so much more useful , insightful info here than a lifetime of chairlift "armchair quarterback" babble. The question is: why aren't there more experts on the subject here in the BOL think tank? :rolleyes: Ever since Lowell Hart pulled me aside at Stowe and gave me some constructive criticism on my riding I've been obsessed with the science of snowboard carving. Just when you think you're king of the hill you run into guys like Bill Enos or Mark Fawcett and realize that you're only a hack that aspires to ride at thier level. Guys like that are so humble and passionate about our sport. I think the same is true here. I truly appreciate the time and effort guys like Jack Michaud and Eric Brammer put into helping others get stoked on alpine. Last year at ECES I couldn't believe the skill on the hill. In the first 3 hours of ripping I managed to highside and cartwheel as we rode like a pack of wild dogs at high speed in awesome conditions. Even with alot of pain in my ankle I rode until it just hurt too much.I wanted to say, although not "qualified" to hand out advice, keep the stoke and knowledge flowing here because when I can't get on the snow I come here to sift through the flame wars and try to learn something. Northeast representin'.........PEACE! ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Bordy
[snip discussion on age of snowboarding

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You can trace snowboarding back to snurfers in the 60s or the first guy to stand sideways on a tobaggan and I still think it's young. I think I'm just as aware of the history as you are, we just see it differently.

In your 17 years of riding how much work have you done in board RD how many companies have made your snowboards to your skill level.

None - but then, I don't ever claim to be the worlds best rider and if you recall what I've written, my technical advice here is kept to a minimum. I know my limits and I fundamentally agree with your point - my counter-point is simply that the net don't work that way, and that if you want people to listen to what you have to say you have to haul back on the attitude a notch or three. Personally I pay a lot of attention to those people I perceive to have the goods.

Because if you have you may have noticed how quickly your young sport has grown

Absolutely, it's grown a lot. And is still growing, which is my point - it's still a long way from static, and the instructors and coaches are still arguing over what the best technique is and what's the best way to teach it. Which is why I just try to listen to everybody and try out advice I think might help me.

O-kay how about the Racing maturity level World cup competition is the best of the best Guys and girls riding the best gear on the best hills in the most challenging courses. Gear being made with the best rider input.

I don't deny it. Competition is, as in any sport, the place where the advances are made.

You say also that “For example, racing-wise, it certainly isn't anywhere close to skiing as far as maturity and performance are concerned.” Shape skis and the major changes in ski technologies are based off snowboard design. Ski Performance has improved because of snowboarding.

True enough. But that doesn't mean that snowboarding technique is beating skiing technique, race-wise. Because when I watch a snowboard race, I sure see a lot more riders looking sketchy and falling on their asses then in skiing. The skiers are going faster, in better control and looking better doing it. Is it because skiing is inherently better on the race course, or do we have some development yet to go with snowboarding? It's an honest question, you tell me, cause you've got an insider's view of it and I'm just a weekend warrior.

Neil I’m sure there is some thing you have spent lots of time doing that you are very knowledgeable about (like Sword fighting)

Yeah, I only mentioned that because I know very well what it's like to be one of the few that know what they're talking about amongst a whole pile of speculators and wannabes. So I've got some sympathy for you, but you still tick me off. I'm just saying that the way to get through is to keep slugging with the good info, delivered reasonably. All the attitude accomplishes is just to close peoples ears. Arguing by qualification (I'm ranked X so therefore I'm right) rarely works on the net.

[Pre School Rider]

Lowell! Yaahhh...Well,I've got a little piece of paper,from an Exam,that has a Lowell Note on it. "You're not Skiing on your snowboard correctly". At the bar that evening,after reading that tidbit of info,I let Mr. Hart know that I don't Rollerblade like I Skateboard!! I like Lowell,but man,what a Planker he was as an Examiner!Should've been using his poles while riding,really. Again,I made a huge mistake in my 'career' as an Instructor;I tried to be P.C. within an organization that was created by skiers.I've gold my gold pin,but I'll never see a return on it's cost.Nice thing though has been watching the industry slowly come around to ideas that were already out there 16 years ago.We finally have terrain features that are consistent,challenging,and usually fun.Sidecuts aren't just the propriety of racing boards,but now are inclusive on all snowboards,and also skis(btw,I was working at Line,and gave Jas the idea of a centered,quadratic sidecut for a 'bigger' twintip skiboard in '96 - now twintips are everywhere,all copies of Burton's Evil Twin board from '94,which was a Paul Wren sidecut design). Heck,even the idea that one's Arms (not poles) could help in balance or rotational moves (nevermind carved turns!) is even Allowed these days.Who would've thought PSIA could've ever accepted that notion? So,yeah,things are different now,and in my mind,the door's open to new concepts in humanistic motion.That "Open Door" is the same one that beckoned me back in '78 when figured out that fins added to a Snurfer could turn on Ascutney's icy trails... So,look into that doorway,and figure out what The Next Level is going to be... Hint here -- rotational airborne edge changes!

[JohnSch]

In terms of high-quality advice based on what racers are currently doing, is anyone aware of any video that lays out the core of their technique? There have been a couple of basic, in a good way, racing-derived ski instructional videos come out in the last few years focussing on modern technique with the advent of shaped skiis (Al Hobart from Green MountainVS has one of them); I'm not aware of anything comparable for snowboarding. Even reading great information from highly qualified sources (e.g., Mark Fawcett's '00 interview on this site, where he talks about Jasey Jay Anderson being a bit more squared up and straight-legged than he is, and how he thinks that now has benefited Jasey Jay) I can infer what's meant but with a fair chance of also being wrong. Being able to visually see what's meant, break it down in slo-mo, etc. would be great...

[Grady]

Interesting points Phil. This may be somewhat of an unfair generalization, but more often than not the racers here (especially the ones that claim to be "pro") come across as mildly-retarded, with a lot of disconnected thoughts and made-up words. Bomber's general population and the expert freecarvers are a lot easier to understand.

[philfell]

As I've said before I just wanted to have people take a good honest look at their own riding and level of knowledge, ie where did it come from, was it self taught, have you been coached at a high level, or have you and a group of friends been over thinking the phisics of it for the last ten years? I never wanted to slander anyone when I started it, I'm not looking for recognition, or a pat on the back, just some honesty.

I would like to say someting to Maciek (sorry if I spelled your name wrong), I never asked about certification. Most of the organizations that have any sort of certification for snowboarding don't have much application to hardbooting anyway. I agree with you 100% that you don't have to be the best rider on the hill to be the best teacher.

Thanks to all, I'm probably going to leave this thread alone now. Unless someone specifically asks me something. I wanted to get people thinking and I think I've accomplished that, maybe a little too well.

[Mark.Andersen]

Hey Guys: In my opinion, the best way to promote the sport, improve carving technique, and help out new carvers is to write up your thoughts send them to Fin for inclusion in the Articles page. While everyone here appreciates when pros and experts chime in on the forum, those pearls of wisdom get lost way too fast as threads age.

Do you have some ideas about gear, technique, terrain, etc? Write them down and send them in. Top Ten carving tips? Pointers for running Slalom or GS gates? How to carve a great heelside turn on steep ice (please write this one!)?

Not only does this help the new guys, but formalizing your thoughts might even help out your own technique. It will get you thinking analytically about what you do by feel on the hill. Not only that, but weekend warriors like myself getting to be better carvers means that there's a bigger market (higher prices) for your used pro gear. Everybody wins!

Let's hear it!

[Bordy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
[B][snip discussion on age of snowboarding

when I watch a snowboard race, I sure see a lot more riders looking sketchy and falling on their asses then in skiing. The skiers are going faster, in better control and looking better doing it. Is it because skiing is inherently better on the race course, or do we have some development yet to go with snowboarding? It's an honest question, you tell me, cause you've got an insider's view of it and I'm just a weekend warrior.


Neil, Skiers Have 2 skis, 4 edges if both edges are carving and 1 edge slips you can adjust while standing on the other. Also with 2 edges to stand on you can absorb more chatter, and ride 2 carved lines instead of 1. It makes a more stable platform increasing balance. I’m not saying skiing is twice as easy. But it is more stable while carving. This allows a skier to charge harder and making a mistake here or there can be corrected while still holding line. Line is what counts, and since every one is charging the same line the course ruts up because is gets carved away. With 2 edges to stand on the skiers weight is distributed to the foot or feet, its up to the skier to decide how much force to each. As the skis bounce in and out of ruts while still trying to carve there own arc and not bounce or chatter (energy that bounces from edge to edge through the core) it still creates a large stable platform to stand on giving the skier a set of rails to ride on.
A rider only has the one rail all of their weight is on that rail fighting all the same obstacles a ski does only if it fails there is no back up the result is a second point of contact usually a hand , knee or hip. A skiers second point of contact is a whole other edge (and ski). That sure helps the skier out, but the rider either fights to make the save and hopefully does., or falls. If the rider does make the save they then have to fight to get back on line witch may take 3 or 4 gates to do, and may look very awkward. While the skiers’ same edge loss goes unnoticed. Because of the easy save and may not require any adjustment in line since the second point of contact is usually the inside edge, on a tighter arc maintaining line. Also like a car that may slip sideways after losing grip because it has 2 points of contact that are wide, Vs a Motorcycle with just the 1 narrow track that slides out from under it when grip fails. The effects of losing grip are very different on skies vs. a snowboard. One can look very controlled while the other is clearly a error. Also if 1 of a skier skis slides out and a little “spray” flies it only adds to the action. While when a snowboard blows their carve and “skids” the tail they have blown that whole turn.

Sorry that I tick you off . I am a lover of the sport and a ambassador to all I know. But I am not a writer or a editor and many off my post take hours to compose. I try to stay to the point but my talkative nature meanders. This forces me to be direct and strait to the point on many post. I mentioned the sword analogy, hoping that it would spark some compassion for the turmoil I face reading so many of the post and cringing at the misunderstanding of such a amazing sport, for some. A passion for others, and a lifestyle for a few. I try to hold back the long winded praise or equally lengthy rebuttal. But as you can see it can be very hard for me to do. The hours I pound my hands into the keys and the corrections I try to make may seem like only a blip while you or others read into them how you choose. They may contain breaks of hours or just a quick moments when My feeling changed or as I struggled to find the words to express my thought. These hour are because of my love of riding, but also at a sacrifice to me. I have slowly become cockier on this board but due to a on going battle with so many with bad advise to others. In witch I intervene only to be flamed or belittled due to my writing skills, or spelling, and often based solely on my writing style.
I even hope people like GRADY are refering to me with statements like ”but more often than not the racers here (especially the ones that claim to be "pro") come across as mildly-retarded, with a lot of disconnected thoughts and made-up words.” But even when they are not I tend to go to the defense of any one they maybe. Heck it sure seems like he is calling someone or some of us mildly-retarded. It sure feels that way to me. Is it right well that’s up to you and do you consider our fellow poster Grady, as the expert calling a confused person claiming to be pro as mildly-retard (witch in my house with a wife who holds a masters in, and teaches Special Ed is un called for) or is it the reader of the post who is confused by the expert, or do they not enjoy the poster style of writing?. And I know the riders who claim to be pro on this board and non of them are talking any more or less smack about gear or goodies then any of the first or second year riders here. Heck there are some posters here that are trying very hard to be pros and don’t even mention it.
I agree with lots of your comments and think you may understand how heart wrenching it is to see my beloved sport of hardbooting be desecrated by so many heartless fools on this board. If the passion of my heart break is amplified by my writing then so be it.

The point of so many posters being flamed or insulted my riders who may not have the same level of qualifications was proven beyond a doubt. The appointed moderators even stepped in to try and straighten out things a bit. Then a moderator and a designer even defended the home team binding. I’m sure some off you took there words as gold.
and some took there words as binding defense. But none of you took their words as belittling because it’s Jack and Bob. I have never seen what I would consider Bad advise come from either. But you may have noticed they know the sport has, is, and will progress into the next level. At some point in time everyone helps the sport progress. some just have a bigger effect then others. I have already made many things better for so many people in the sport. I have changed and still change so many lives with my passion for snowboarding. I am lucky enough to have done so every year since I started to ride. I receive a thank you almost every day from a stranger whose snowboarding experience is better due to me. I have done my part on a grander scale then many think. It is my choice to talk smack here on BOL but I am not out of line by doing so among my peers, so I often due the same here. If people choose to judge me by my writing that is fine by me. I live everyday in the real world as a snowboarding ambassador, supplier, repairer, instructor, innovator, translator, and guide. I do more then my part every day. The last thing I enjoy is some cats on a web page ticking my off as well. Sorry to do it to some of you!

Good thread Phil, Glad you stopped by the shop and told me about it. That’s almost as good as playing dumb around skiers!

[dragonfly jones]

Billy,

Well done - I could not have said anything better myself, you are the man!

Much respect and much love - happy new year, my friend make it a great one(you already made mine)!

Chuck B
Head Alpine Snowboard Coach
Program Director
Eldora Mountain Snowboard and Ski Club
Boulder, CO

[Sean]

I think that there is often alot of confusion about being qualified to teach and coach versus being certified to do so.
Having spent way too much time collecting the alphabet soup of certs from PSIA/AASI and most recently CASI (I'm sure there is a 12 step program for people like me), I have worked with lots of folks in the racing and instructor world who could do truly great things with skiers and riders. I have also seen folks from both camps give advice that made me cringe. Every once in a while I also cross paths with folks like Ken Tower who don't have any formal certs, yet demonstrate a level of understanding of the sport and display natural teaching talents that are impressive.

Oddly enough, I believe that stepping away from the AASI world for a bit has made me a better coach and instructor and allowed me to stop riding like a robot- kinda like a teacher's sabatical of sorts. In defense of AASI, they have come a long way from the dark days of "snowboard skiiing" and will be open to change if we can convince them that there will be an audience for more alpine derived curriculum. And I believe that at the upper cert levels they do create instructors that are solid riders (albeit on freeride gear) and are adaptable enough to become alpine trainers if pointed in that direction. So say what you will about them, but I believe that they gave me the solid basic training that allowed me to continue to develop as a coach.

As far as race-style versus freeride: The skills demonstrated in racing and pipe freeriding and freecarving are the same. All that differs is the way those skills are blended and the intensity in which we apply them. We are way too small a community to start eating our own, so I say welcome all comers and all forms of advice, and let the community's free market system weed out the posers from the follks with the good stuff.

In the meantime, it would be great if everyone on this site would at least try to get with guys like Phil who are at the "tip of the sword", buy them a beer and pick their brains. Another thing that would be impressive would be if all 500 plus active forum participants would walk into the snowsports school office at their local area and ask the director if they would be able to set up some kind of training event given by trainers on alpine gear. There is no better advertising for our sport than having a group of carvers ripping around the hill.

Great post Phil - got everyone thinking on this one.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney
One small clarification on your descriptive on ski vs snowboard edging.

While the skier does have two edges and can adjust weight to pressure either more or less, snowboarders are way more dynamic front to back and can therefore pressure the edge more effectively than a skier.




As far as I know (and I have never been skier, but rather fan of ski racing except snowboard racing) skiers use mostly outer ski to carve turn so they use one edge either. I heard that using both edges can bring a lot of trouble and terrible accidents. That's because different angulation on both skis can cause extremely different turn radius Jack's article and some other materials discuss that and my calculator shows that:
<A href="http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze44bga/CarvingCalculator1.html"> Carving Calculator Page</A>


But I bet they use that inner ski for some corrections and some stabilization. At least it looks like they do.

[mirror70]

Maciek,

What you say used to be true. The current crop of shaped skis have different radii sidecut on the inner and outer edge, thus allowing you to carve on both skis.

[willywhit]

Now I'm wondering if teaching snowboarding is very different from race coaching.PSR is a good example because he does both. I was put off on instructing mainly because it took alot of the fun out of riding. It seemed like a tennis lesson with strict guidelines to follow. Tighten your schpincter and tuuuuuurrrrrn. I've watched Lowell teach skiiers how to bend thier ski through a turn simply by having them use his snowboard trench as a berm to follow. Simple but genius.Eric, I like Lowell too but definately a strange guy...but in a good way, just a little eccentric. I've taught friends aspiring to carve the same way tho. Berm it thru my trench. It works! Eric I hope you're right about the next level. The carve to fakie carve is sick!Coming off a knoll toeside, getting weightless and sticking it heelside is such a rush.I wanna do that switch at speed eventually. Maybe if the race courses were set more toward the snowboard style of riding instead of skiing it would make it more fun to watch and more ...marketable and televisable. It seems that so many races involve charging to the next gate to chatter through nasty ruts that would rattle your fillings loose. BUT, I'm not qualified or certified to comment. I'll leave that to the brain trust here. I've seen John Gilmour set skateboard slalom courses with 50 cones that were unreal. I mean REALLY challenging to scary fast and fun as hell.I wouldn't be able to get past the 5th cone at first and he could rip it without hitting ANY. But I suck at it. It seems the same with carving. There's just blasting around surfing the mountain and running gates is a totally different ballgame. Maybe it's just the fun factor.People have talked about "freeracing" here. Freeriding with alot of race style and I hope that is a big part of the future of this sport. Engineers and artists will always see the world differently. Take a lesson, learn the basics and go out and develop your own style. And don't forget to smile alot:D it's all about enjoying the ride~

[eddie]

Maciek

The uniqueness of Bode Miller's racing technique, other than his mastery of inclination and angulation, is that he utilizes both skis in each turn rather than favoring one edge per turn. With that said, I know there are many world cup ski racers that favor one edge in each turn yet maintain similar race results. As per whether there is more of a control advantage with a ski or snowboard, I don't know. I can do both but I am not a master of either.

Billy

You have changed my snowboarding life with more knowledge and proficiency that would have taken years for me to learn. I like your last post, clear, precise, and oddly humble for a BOL post. I have to ask, how many snowboards were you able to sell in the shop while writing this?

[Coldrider]

I MET a traveller from an antique land
Who said:—Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away

PB Shelly


Beat them chests! Swing them ducks!

[Maciek]

Originally posted by mirror70
Maciek,

What you say used to be true. The current crop of shaped skis have different radii sidecut on the inner and outer edge, thus allowing you to carve on both skis.


All right then. I see it is possible to ski on both skis using two edges in carved turns. However i have dobot then.

Does this mean that ski sidcut radius on both edges is specific to length of skiier legs and ability to extension/compression by the skier?

I would see that skier extending one leg far away in turn and using high angulation on outer ski (vs. inner ski where he/she keeps it close with knee highly bent) would need that.

[RaceCarver]

I'm going to keep this short.

First, Phil is dead on right. Learning to race (the correct way, of course) will pay huge dividends in your freecarving. If you can learn to control your board in an icy, rutted course at the edge of disaster, just about anything your come across freecarving will seem tame.

I'm just amazed how many snowboarders I come across-both hard and soft booters-who think they are hot $hit, AND they cant even get down a lame-o NASTAR course with out blowing up and looking silly.

Anyone who thinks freecarving, free riding or free skiing for that matter does not use the same techniques (toned down) as used on the World Cup circuts is clueless.

Also, modern race skis DO NOT have different side cuts on the inside/outside edges. Both skis edges are the same. The last time anyone tried this was about 7 or so years ago with the Atomic 9.28 Beta Race Differential. The idea sounded good on paper, but the ski got locked into one turn radius, and made it inflexable (similar to asym race boards) Now all race skis are symmetrical in design.

Good racing technique has EVERYTHING to do with every day snowboarding.

Enough said.

[NateW]

If you see bad information being posted, post good information. If people don't accept your words as truth, explain why your method is superior. If that doesn't work, it's someone else's loss, not yours. Appealing to authority seems to make people forget about instruction and revert to, uh, "duck" swinging.

Let's just get more good ideas posted, so people can try different ideas and find out for themselves who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.

Far as I'm concerned, the people most qualified to give advice here are Jack M, Shred G, and Patrice F. Why? Because they've given me the information that has resulted in the biggest improvements in my riding. Far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters. Don't know if it's because they're the best riders with the most trophies or if they really suck but they're good at explaining what makes other people ride well... don't care, either.

But equipment reviews, on the other hand... Unless you're really lucky you can't just try something for a day or two. It would be nice to know whose background is what. It seems like every board reviewed has a reviewer who thinks it's the dampest and the quickest edge-to-edge with bestest edge-hold. :)

[NateW]

RaceCarver, would you happen to know the sidecuts of those Atomic "Differential" skis? Inside or outside, doesn't matter, I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate. Sounds like it might be fun to play with.

One of my local shop got a pair of slalom skis in last year or the year before with 11m inside edges and 10m outside edges, but I've been looking for something in the 13m range (and no, I don't much care about differential).

Speaking of which, for all the talk about skis getting 'revolutionized' by snowboard sidecuts, I have a really hard time finding skis with sidecuts under 15m (unless the length is under 160cm). Most "carve" skis are still up around 20m or the high teens. :)

[JohnSch]

Nate, http://www.stockli.com/ check out the slaloms, freecarves and fun carves for short radius skis. The ski designs aren't any different from Atomic, Rossi etc. as far as sidecuts for particular purposes, they simply list the radius in easy-to-see format.

The recent digression concerning skis sort of hammers home the point Phil was making in terms of levels of experience: ski design and technique has evolved very rapidly since the mid-90s, and for snowboarders in particular there's no reason to be up on this. However, Bordy was explaining why it's more difficult to hold a line on snowboards than on skis, and he clearly spends a lot of time around racers in general. Unless someone has a current background in ski racing, it's reasonable to assume he may have a point.

I do have a sort-of related question, though, for anyone with a racing background. Just as skiers have lots of goofy drills to learn things like riding the inside ski...I'm sure there must be some drills strong riders can do, safely in a resort environment, for developing technique. Open to any suggestions!

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by NateW
RaceCarver, would you happen to know the sidecuts of those Atomic "Differential" skis? Inside or outside, doesn't matter, I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate. Sounds like it might be fun to play with.

One of my local shop got a pair of slalom skis in last year or the year before with 11m inside edges and 10m outside edges, but I've been looking for something in the 13m range (and no, I don't much care about differential).

Speaking of which, for all the talk about skis getting 'revolutionized' by snowboard sidecuts, I have a really hard time finding skis with sidecuts under 15m (unless the length is under 160cm). Most "carve" skis are still up around 20m or the high teens. :)

Nate, thanks for the props, I appreciate it. But if you're going to put me on the same pedestal as that guy with the blue burning/melting face, I'll need some cootie spray. Or something - yecchh!! I would have emailed you but you're blocking email from this forum. tsk tsk.

Anyway, my dad had those Atomic 9.28's and they were indeed asym. I don't know if they had differing sidecut radii, but they were offset a few centimeters. There was a right ski and a left ski and you couldn't swap them.

I <i>thought</i> that Atomic's ski naming convention was (model number).(radius), which would have made the 9.28 a 28m ski. That seems reasonable, just eyeballing my dad's skis. But I don't know that for sure.

If I were buying skis today, I'd look hard at Atomic and Fischer. They seem to be hot these days. The 170cm Fischer RX8 is 14m. That would be a fun ski. Their slalom skis are 11m, and their GS race skis are 21.
-Jack

[Neil Gendzwill]

Billy - thanks for the ski/snowboard race comparison. That was kind of my general idea too but I appreciate the detailed reasons why.

Jack & others on skis - if you're really interested in skis, the best source for comparison info is Ski Canada mag, bar none. They actually test and rate skis, in an unbiased enough format that several manufacturers no longer provide skis for them to test. They give bios on all the testers, who they are sponsored by or what they normally ski on if unsponsored, and their top 3 skis so you get an idea of what profile rider likes what ski, plus they give an overall rating and description plus comments for each ski. They do this across 3 issues for 6 different categories of ski. It's a great resource for equipment junkies, even those of us that seldom ski and who haven't bought skis for years.

Anyhow, Atomic generally comes out near the top. This year's free carve high performance comparison rated their skis bestest. The model is C:11 Puls Ti, which is listed as a 14 m sidecut @ 170 cm length. Yeah, Atomic changed their names frome ones that made sense to marketing babble. Ski Canada also liked Head WorldCup I.SL (11.1 m @ 160 cm), Rossignol 9s Oversise (12.5m @158 cm) and Volant Genesis V2 (18m @180 cm). As you can see, the freecarvers are tending towards the short and turny, although that Volant is pretty long. The freeride skis would be more in the 175-180 cm range with sidecuts in the high teens.

[NateW]

$0.02 about skis vs. snowboards:

I think the skiers' main advantage is lateral balance. They're not teetering on a single edge, they have a bit more room for error.

I read a letter-to-the-editor in a motocycle magazine a few years ago where a reader was asking why motorcycles don't have skid pad tests to find the maximum lateral acceleration. The magazine's response: when cars exceed their limits, they just slide; when bikes exceed their limits, they tip over. It's not quite that simple really but I think it makes the case pretty well and there's a good analogy to be made with skiers and boaders.

During my (admittedly brief) excursion into racing, I raced both board and skis on the same course, sometimes on the same day. Minor mistakes that hurt my time a lot on a board would hurt my time only a little when skiing. My boarding times were always about 15% behind my skiing times, and I think my snowboarding and skiing were at about the same level. My snowboarding has improved a lot since then, and I've hardly skied at all, but I still don't think I could match my skiing times while boarding.

As Bob said, the snowboard gives superior fore-aft control, and I think that's why it's easier (for me, not running gates) to get really low to the snow when carving a snowboard than when carving skis. Even with similar sidecut radii - I have a pair of Head Cyber iC 163cm with a 12.6 radius and a Coiler with a 12.8 radius and I can't get as low on those skis as I can on that board. The effective edge length is almost identical between the skis and the board, btw.

Seems to me that having better control over one edge means I can commit to higher inclination turns - but there's less room for error, and once I commit to the turn there's not a lot I can do to vary my trajectory. So it only really pays off when freeriding, where I'm not concerned with threading my way through gates.

For the worst of both worlds, try monoskiing - it has the disadvantage of only one edge, but without the fore-aft advantage of a snowboarder's stance. Fun challenge. :)

[tilledog]

Thanks to all, I'm probably going to leave this thread alone now. Unless someone specifically asks me something.

I have a question,

Why you such a ho, Phil?

[RaceCarver]

Natew, I don't have exact demensions for the 9.28, but back when I did a lot of ski racing, I raced on Atomics, so I have a pretty good idea from memory.

The 9.28 name meant the following. The 9 was the series of ski (9 being the highest performance in the Atomic line at the time).The 28 refers to the turn radius of the ski (28 meters).

The 9.28 Differential was their highest performing GS ski at the time. The outside edges had a 28 M radius, while the inside edges were slighly smaller (maybe by a meter or so). The idea was that the inside ski needs to track a slightly tighter turn than the outside ski. The idea worked to a certain extent. They were indeed great carving skis, but the differential sidecut made it harder to feather the skis into a turn if a course correction was needed. Also the different side cut made it harder to really let the skis get flat and "run" through straighter sections of the course.

The 9.28 was relaced by the 10.26 (26 meter radius) symmetrical GS ski, which the Hermanator made world famous.

The 10.26 was replaced by the 10.22. which was replaced by the current crop of 21 meter GS skis. The older Atomic 's turn radius would change slighly with length because Atomic would keep the same nose,waist,tail measurement regardless of length. The current FIS legal Atomics keep the same 21 meter radius regardless of length.

Hope this helps.

[LeeW]

I like being quiet and just read.

To post a thought or two, certifications. I've been teaching the disabled how to ski, yet Im not PSIA-certified. I HAVE to get PSIA ski or snowboard (or both) certifications in order to get the Adapative PSIA, which I truly want. Its mostly to assure the disabled clients as well as parents I've done my homeworks and would like to make it the "ABLE" come out of disabled with snowsports. Of course, last of all, its a matter of insurance to assure Im able to teach 'em when it comes to lawsuit. Lawsuits is happening like bugs hitting the car windowshield in early AM. But that's another thread.

My biggest beef with the concept of PSIA (no puns intended to the good instructors and the likes) certification is sometimes it adds a couple of inches (or feet) to their ego-swelling-big-head. I have ridden with some of 'em and they'd go "Hey, Im certified and I can ride better than you." By the time I arrive at the bottom of the chair lift and watch 'em ride. -cued cough- They ride terrible.

I know there's two sides to one coin, its good to bring people to the sports and the likes. ON the other hand, it seems like its corroding the sports, like for instance, some would use it for power-trip ladder.

Actually, what Im saying/asking is "Am I the only one who is a non-conformist to this money-sucking machine organization?" Apparently, I dont think this is the case after I read PSR's post amongst others. I just feel like the PSIA's trying to centralize the methodology of what's right and wrong to teach. Im somewhat grateful its decentralized right now and am able to read other people's thoughts/methodolgy.

Lee

PS Im not trying to badmouth the PSIA. Its the people, not all, that Im having beef with.

PSS YES WHERE'S THE BEEF ?!

[davidmmanthei]

back to the middle of the threads... I know this is a little late as i am just reading the entire post but mirror70 said something that caught my eye on the performance of world cup technology:
"Have you ever tried to ski on real world cup race skis? It's neither easy nor fun. The difference between a true race board and a "fun" board (like most people on Bomber ride) isn't nearly as pronounced, but it is definitely there."

I have infact skied on world cup race skis and they are more fun than your average ski because they perform that much better. I can take a pair of slalom ski and destroy in any terrain. I think snowboards are the same way. I can ride my old freeride santa cruz and make half-assed eurocarves on perfect snow or i can take out my race board and make layed out eurocarves on ice, death cookies, or whatever crappy snow you put infront of me. The world cup technology is ovbiously better. It is the uneducated, undeveloped rider that can't ride "world cup technology" that is losing out.

[dragonfly jones]

I know you can shralp a snowboard - but on ski's??? Your just a kid!!!

And today you rode like a woman!

NAH, I know you rip! See your name up in lights BABY your gonna be huge at what you do!

Get on the podium in the morning!

Now get some rest!


DFJ