If you Could........

[Doug M]

If you could carve as hard on a soft set up as on your hardboot set up would you ever put on hard boots again.Imagine having the versatility of a soft boots while being able to lay out carves of a 170 cm alpine board......Hard boots might become a thing of the past.As a matter of fact it is becoming a thing of the past.10 years ago you could go to a mountain in the northeast and see 10 alpine riders at it.Now every 2 trips you might see one other.
7 years ago I was a buyer for one of the largest shops in the northeast and we sold over 120 alpine boards out of 1600 decks sold.Today that shop sells 0.What Happened????.

The reason I bring this up is because I just put together a setup of catek fr bindings/Oxygen 70 quantum(27 cm wide) and Nitro Havok (super stiff soft boots).This settup carves as hard as many of the alpine decks I have had with the versitility and comfort of a soft boot...The Donek and atf 700's might see an early retirement.If you don't Believe it, just ask people who have seen Vin Q ride.He is a couple years ahead of the carving learning curve and figured it out a number of years ago.Keep an open mind and give it a try

:D

Doug M

[Baka Dasai]

You're saying that soft boots can match hard boots, which <b>may</b> be true for some people, but in general, people use hard boots cos it makes the type of riding they want to do <b>easier</b>.

So instead of hyping the supposed "versatility and comfort" of soft boots, you could be hyping the "ease of use" of hard boots, at least when it comes to carving.

As for "keeping an open mind and giving it a try", most people here will have a fair degree of experience riding soft boots, and probably still do ride them some of the time.

[Jon Dahl]

I will never go back(wards) to soft boots. In a nutshell, footpain. Comfort? Hardly. As in walk 100 yards? Ouch! I've hiked 1.5 miles in mySB224's. I could surf-carve with a soft setup but never as well as with hard boots. I can ride moguls better in hardshell boots, not that I am ever going to be great at it. Hard shell boots are the next step FORWARD in the pursuit of a skill set known as board control. You can get close on the heelside, but never on the toeside. Just my ramble on the subject.

[sheffy]

--i ride both setups----167 ride timeless with flow pro bindings and salomon malamute bindings---and a coiler 184 pure race with cateks-----i can carve my softs pretty well--layed out carves(really stiff setup) but the COILER--anyone that has one knows what im talking about---NO COMPARISON IN DESTROYING THE GROOMERS!!!!!

[Chris Houghton]

If they could make freeride boards longer, narrower and stiffer, and soft boots stiffer with a better binding - but wait- we have that, it's called Alpine! Like driving through snow with good all season tires, you think you're great until some clown with real snows blows past you. Sorry, for carving hard boots and alpine boards are the only way for me.

[Doug M]

The question is If "you" could would you stop using them.I already see people on soft set up's out carving guys on 180 doneks.Technique overides most equiptment.I hated carving on soft boots in the past because of foot pain.The Havock boot is the first boot I have ridden that did not do this.Does it carve as hard as my Doneck 182...No but it is 80% there.

Most of us went to hard boots because we like the precision ,control,and lack of foot pain with this settup.The only proplem is...crowds..mogels..powder..trees..where these set ups suffer greatly.Yes I know some of you can negotiate those conditions on a hard settup but I never see them on the mountain.Over the last 10 years...I have been riding plates 17 years I do not see anyone getting better on hard setups.Why??

My point is that the future or survival of carving is going to be on hybrid type setups and technique .Every major board company has gotton away from race boards.When I see the faces of the the ex sessions I see faces like mine...old.

Doug M

[Jack Michaud]

Nice trap. Your question is worded so that only a fool would disagree. The problem is, no softboot setup will ever carve as well as a hardboot setup, <i>while still performing like a softboot</i> for other types of riding. Two <i>major</i> things softboots will never provide as well as hardboots, without crushing your foot, are response (i.e. lack of slop) and lateral support. These two criteria are paramount for carving.

Even if there was a "softboot" setup that could carve like a hardboot, it would sacrifice performance in the areas of snowboarding that typically use softboots. Witness the Flow binding. Arguably the most carvey soft binding out there. According to you, it should be putting all other binding makers out of business. But you'll notice it isn't even close to being the most popular binding on the hill. Or even popular at all. Why?

Hybrid soft systems have come and gone. The Craig Kelly toungue, the Elfgen toungue, hybrid hard/soft boots, mountaineering boots... all history. And step-ins aren't even conquering the marketplace as was predicted.

And speaking of comfort, I use custom footbeds and Thermoflex liners. I wear my hardboots all day without touching the buckles once, not even for lunch, and my feet do not fatigue.

You don't buy snowboarding boots to walk in, do you?

Bottom line is, what you're talking about is a compromise. Sure, there are always people who can carve better than other people using multipurpose equipment. But purpose-built equipment in the hands of experts will always outperform compromise equipment. It is true just about everywhere - skis, cars, motorcycles, windsurfers, you name it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your setup is bad, I'm sure it kicks butt, and I'm sure I would enjoy it. It's probably what the majority of softbooters <i>should</i> be riding. I like the idea of promoting your setup to softbooters, to get them to think more about serious carving. So I think you're barking up the wrong tree here in this forum. Softbooters should aspire to carve like us, not the other way around.
-Jack

[Marker]

Before switching to hardboots, my last two pairs of softboots were sizes US15 and US14 respectively. Even with the widest boards that were in production those years (and believe me, I knew about all of them), I still had considerable overhang even at higher angles. Consequently, I booted out all of the time, when I wasn't breaking stuff. I know I am not the only one who found this aspect of softboot riding to be totally unacceptable, but big feet problems notwithstanding, if for some reason I even stood on a factory board again, it would be with hardboots and Bombers/Cateks. Otherwise, I am back to riding 28+++cm waist widths. Icky.

Not to center out Vin Q, but it seems unavoidable in these conversations. From what I understand, he was an extremely talented/gifted hardboot rider before making the switch back/to softies. It seems totally reasonable that if anyone was to make a successful transition to softboot carving, it would be someone like Vin. There is no questioning the fact that a good rider is able to make any setup work at a high level, but I think for the masses, a hardboot setup allows access to a lot more control, more easily. There does seem to be a lot more choice in softboot setups now then there ever has been (especially with the Catek freeride), but not for this sasquatch.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've been passed on the hill by a soft boot rider carving hard. Once. He was a competitive BX guy, and all credit to him. But for the style of riding I do, my hard boots work fine, my feet are comfy and I have no intention of switching. I've got no interest in the park, if I want to ride pipe I'll go skate. My trusty 224s work everywhere else, including bumps, pow and trees.

[ur13]

carving in softies and carving in hard boots are both great...in different ways. One isn't better than the other, they are just different.

I spent years carving in softies and freeride decks. The mechanics of it are different and the feel is different but it is great.

People say you can't carve as well in softies as you cna in hardboots. I disagree. One can match the turn style, radius and speed in softies that they can in hardboots...but the form used to acheive this is much different. if you try to carve in softies like you would in hardboots It won't work, the same is true the otherway around.

I ride hardboots 100% of the time now-a-days though. Even on freeride decks in the trees and pow. Now my only real interest is perfecting a carve and riding hardpack (soft snow, blah) so hard boots are all I want/need. For the little I ride off-piste (pow and trees) I can deal with and work around the restriction of my hardboots in that too. In my 20 years of riding I've learned how to work around that but if I was a beginner I doubt I would even try to ride trees/steeps/pow in plates.

If I rode alot of pow-trees I would buy a soft boot binder/boot. i've considered it a few times recently but when given the choice between untracked fresh pow or freshly groomed (setup nicely over night) untrack groomers...it is not even a close choice. I'll take the groomers 100% of the time....

If I had to make the call and ONLY pick one boot type (sorta have anyway) it would be hardboots. i not only find them more comfortable and easier to deal with but for the type of riding I want to do (even just cruising around) plates are the only way to go.

[Doug M]

Jack you picked up on it right away.The word hybrid is sort of incorrect.It is just a very stiff soft setup.The funny thing was that I got 5 times more interest from the "dudes" seeing that I was carving on softies then when I am on my alpine gear.I think that most of them did not even have a clue that you could carve hard on softies.It was funny watching some of them trying to carve after I passed.I love carving and it will always be the biggest rush I get on snow, but I would like to see it continue in the future.Thank God for a sight like this because I feel without it we would be walking that fine line of extinction...not that it might not be around the corner if more young people don't get into it.I used to think that it would get bigger as the boarders who started 10 years ago came of age and did not want to freestyle anymore.It did'nt happen.Are their any young riders on this board???Not many from what I can tell.Right now guys like Fin,Jeff,Sean are benifitting from the attrition of the large companies dropping out of the market.Not from an Increasing market.What happens when it no longer becomes profitible for them to stay around.I have a feeling they will have to adapt to survive(Cateks FS binding).This is where I am going with this.Jack you have been around a while.Are my observations incorrect??.From what I have seen the equiptment needs to be more user friendly to get new people into carving and more versatile to keep them on it.Some of the new "soft" boot/board/binding setups are getting there.Combine this with good technique and you can carve very..and I mean very hard on a setup that is not limited to groomed terrain.And has appeal to many more people.

Doug M

[willywhit]

Interesting thread because I've been wanting to devolve and learn to ride "duck". After seeing soft boot riders laying out some nice fluid carves and then popping over to switch and basically carving backwards, I confess, I want some some of that action. Since I learned to kitesurf, riding a duck stance feels normal on a wakeboard and I figure that alot of the moves can be learned on the snow. Don't get me wrong. I haven't had softies in the quiver for a looong time and have no intention of leaving the "dark side" but I've seen guys RIP in flow binders. When I wanna go mach 2, there's plenty of knives in the drawer to choose from but when teaching a friend or on crowded days it would be sweet to have a knuckledragger setup. Anybuddy devolving out there?PSR?

[GeoffV]

Here is my take on softies vs hardboot carving.
I've been riding for 16 years with 13 on plates and here are my conclusions or takes on both set ups. I use to ride the soft setup with the Burton Flex bindings and the PJ6.
You can push some nice carves on a soft set up but there is a totally different feel from soft vs hard carving. Like Jack said the paine in your feet on the soft set up was a big one. Edge to edge transition is not as fluid in soft set up. You can't put the same amount of pressure on your carves as you can with a hard set up. You can't get as low or can't rip a carve as deep or as hard as on a hard set up. Speed is another big one, I never feel like I have the same control carving at high speeds on a softies. Try holding an edge on ice with softies and then try it with hardboots.

I personally think it also has to do with skill level (and I am in no way refering to folks that posted here, just my experience). If your a beginner on hardboots I don't think you'll see much of a difference between the set ups, but once you master carving on hardboots there is no way you'll go back to carving on softies. I tested this out 2 years ago by riding me F2 with both set ups and came up with my above conclusions. But everyone is entitled to there on takes on this right.b The only time I'd use softies would be in the pow, but then again I would feel more comfertable in a hard set up anyways.

[Weasel]

I simply don't have the will power. as for would I go to a soft boot. the answer is no cause I occasionally have been known to stick other items on my feet and soft boots no matter how stiff and comfortable simply would not cut it. Another Issue for me would be the possiblity of nickname degradation. I already have "Weasel" which by itself is no prize but what if what happened to Our good friend Ken happened to me...... I mean really "Weasel of the soft Boots" this simply won't work. I realize that Ken is working hard to change that with the word formally but changing ones name is not easy, plus you are now forever linked with "Prince" which may be ok for some of you folks out there in MN but not here in the north East. And finally on to our friend Vin. Please keep in mind a couple of things here.

1. Vin will get more days in this year than most of us will in the next 4 and he puts a tremendous amount of energy and effort into everything he does. He could ride a damn lunch tray from the lodge and sooner or later he would find a way to rip on the damn thing.

2. He is an intelligent person when it comes to Retail and he like so many of us know that hard boots and alpine boards are not making anyone rich. He knows that if he is out there opening up new markets for those folks making stiff soft boots and boarder cross boards life is only going to get better for him. Lets face it he is OOBS number one marketing tool.

3. If other folks had had as much trouble with Raichle as Vin did a couple of years back they would be in soft set ups too.

4. Most of the folks I know have been riding hard boots for a while now and don't realize how freakin stiff the "Soft" boots have actually gotten

this said though, in Short I have been very happy in my mushy hard boots and wouldn't change.

-Weasel-

[kjl]

If I could carve as well in softboots as I can in hardboots I'd wear softboots all the time, but I'd much rather be able to ride trees and powder as well in hardboots as I do in softboots, and ride hardboots all the time. More comfortable.

[Jack Michaud]

I think you are absolutely correct that if carving is going to be mass-marketed to softbooters, that it should be done on their terms. Which is to say, it should happen with softboots. There's no doubt in my mind that if a softbooter realizes he can carve better turns with more responsive equipment, that the chances of that softbooter eventually trying and liking hardboots increases exponentially. My point is, the ultimate goal for any carver should be mastering hardboots and race boards. You seemed to be calling to us to open our minds to softboot carving. Not gonna happen, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

As for whether or not the hardboot market is floundering in the ocean and in dire need of being tossed a life-ring, I think you're off the mark. If alpine was going to die, I think it would have happened already. Burton has been "out" for quite some time now, if you measure that by the fact that they ceased all innovation and effectively all marketing many years ago. The market is becoming more centralized via the web, and I think here it is growing. I know that Fin's sales increase each year, and this year he sold out in record time. Catek is obviously flourishing too, and even KlugRiding is having trouble responding to demand.

<i>"I used to think that it would get bigger as the boarders who started 10 years ago came of age and did not want to freestyle anymore.It did'nt happen."</i>

Umm, take a look around. That's exactly what most of us are here. I think this progression is exactly what is happening. Young people generally aren't going to get into carving en masse. They are worried about what's "cool" as much as what performs. Most softbooters simply dismiss hardboots out-of-hand because they wouldn't want to be seen in them, or because of comfort misconceptions, or because they wouldn't be able to go show off in the park every other run, or just... because. I can understand that. I mean, the Monte Carlo could be the best car on the road, but I'll never know because I think it's one butt-ugly car and I <i>hate</i> Nascar. So don't expect to convert droves of young riders. They will come to us when they're ready.

Indeed, this site serves mostly as a "receiving area" for people to come to once they've discovered or have decided to honestly try hardboot carving. Maybe we need to be more pro-active about bringing the joy of carving to the softboot masses? Anyone want to take that torch and run with it?
-Jack

[Mike T]

I agree with the others who find hard boots more comfy. I certainly find them easier to carve in than softies... my softie setup is Salomon Malamutes, Salomon S6 bindings, Donek Wide - all in all a pretty carvy soft-boot setup. I consider myself a more skilled soft boot rider than hard boot, but I enjoy plates more... each year I spend less and less time in softies.

[kjl]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

<i>"I used to think that it would get bigger as the boarders who started 10 years ago came of age and did not want to freestyle anymore.It did'nt happen."</i>

Umm, take a look around. That's exactly what most of us are here. I think this progression is exactly what is happening. ... So don't expect to convert droves of young riders. They will come to us when they're ready.


That's me. I started snowboarding in 97. Was always an all-mountain freeride kind of guy. Learned how to use my edge correctly on softies, but was frustrated by the mechanics of softie heelsides. Came here, and now I ride hardboots.


Maybe we need to be more pro-active about bringing the joy of carving to the softboot masses? Anyone want to take that torch and run with it?


I got my friend interested at the end of last year. He's got a pair of TD2's, a Donek Axis, and boots in the mail.

[Jon Dahl]

we need to market CARVING to the softboot crowd, not hard boots and plates, at least at first. I don't know of a single soft-booter(except my 12yo step-daughter) that can even grasp the concept of a true carved turn. I think that this is the single largest problem that holds alpine back. Almost every softie rider I know thinks a carve is skidded linked turns, and almost refuse to see past that concept. Skiers, on the other hand, seem to grasp carved turns and their advantages. Go figure. With that said, I find myself riding with skiers almost exclusively when I ride w/friends. So the real question should be; how to market carving as a viable riding style with real advantages to how the soft-booter rides. So how do you market board control?

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks Bob. I agree we all need to be ambassadors for our sport, but I was actually insinuating that someone like PSR or Vin or whoever ought to take the reigns and create a softboot carver's reference that we could use here. I am no authority on that subject, and honestly I'm not interested in becoming one. A section like that would dovetail nicely with the Welcome Center, under the "Not Quite Ready?" link.

And John Dahl just hit it on the head too.

[Doug M]

Good points and insight by everyone.But why is it a see less hard booters out on the mountain then 8 years ago???.Why do no shops carry alpine anymore.The reason you have to buy online is because no one carry's the equipment anymore.Not the otherway around.

Doug M

[jason_watkins]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
[B]we need to market CARVING to the softboot crowd, not hard boots and plates, at least at first. I don't know of a single soft-booter(except my 12yo step-daughter) that can even grasp the concept of a true carved turn.

Some of my friends get the difference. The ones that do have skiing experience though.

Bode charges gates and is a star... snowboard racers charge gates, and are lucky to get much exposure at all. Until the popular attitude around snowboarding changes, I don't expect carving to catch on. If there were (proportionally) more old boarders... perhaps that attitude would change... but it seems like skiiers stay skiing through their adult life, but boarders seem to grow out of it.

I also take some objection to the idea that mastering race board should be the ultimate goal of all carvers. In fact, I think carving will get a lot of converts looking for a more mellow way to enjoy the hill after age or injury.

[philfell]

"comfort of soft boots"?, I've never experienced that, my hard boot are way more comfortable than any soft boot I've ridden in.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by Doug M
If you could carve as hard on a soft set up as on your hardboot set up would you ever put on hard boots again.Imagine having the versatility of a soft boots while being able to lay out carves of a 170 cm alpine board......Hard boots might become a thing of the past.As a matter of fact it is becoming a thing of the past.10 years ago you could go to a mountain in the northeast and see 10 alpine riders at it.Now every 2 trips you might see one other.
7 years ago I was a buyer for one of the largest shops in the northeast and we sold over 120 alpine boards out of 1600 decks sold.Today that shop sells 0.What Happened????.

The reason I bring this up is because I just put together a setup of catek fr bindings/Oxygen 70 quantum(27 cm wide) and Nitro Havok (super stiff soft boots).This settup carves as hard as many of the alpine decks I have had with the versitility and comfort of a soft boot...The Donek and atf 700's might see an early retirement.If you don't Believe it, just ask people who have seen Vin Q ride.He is a couple years ahead of the carving learning curve and figured it out a number of years ago.Keep an open mind and give it a try

:D

Doug M

Did that several years ago with Clicker system from K2 and some stiffer boots.

Depends what you mean by saying "carving hard". If you are really advanced and into speedy carv9ing or precise carving I do not belive that you can reach level of control with soft board setup.

In higher speeds soft er board is good as it is forgiving on ruts, but it does not provide enough stability so you may lose control.

Also if you try to get thight and precisely carved turns you can only do that with setup up to some degree.

For some freeriding with several easy carves that setup might be perfect.


This is just like driving car. If you are a commuter liking to show off from time to time on a straight stretch of highway you can go with V6 Honda, Toyota or Lexus. However if you like to drive performance technique with high level control (not neccessarily very fast like some - including some cops - believe) then you may get some car with well matched transmission and good engine, good brakes and tuned suspension. It may not be a racing model, but definitelly you will be able to pull aggressive turns and pass other cars on carves of your highway (while the others will be scared due to limited control over car).

I bet this is the same as with motorcycles.

[Skully]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
So the real question should be; how to market carving as a viable riding style with real advantages to how the soft-booter rides. So how do you market board control?

Here's how I market carving/board control to soft-booters: As a way to improve thier freestyle skills. Better carving and board control = more speed carried through turns, more speed = going bigger. Look at any decent halfpipe rider, and how do they ride through the bottom of the pipe between hits? Are they skidding? no, a good halfpipe rider carves across the bottom of the pipe between hits, losing no speed.

A lot of kids can actually grasp this concept. Most of them are still of the mindset "I can't turn heelside, but I wanna learn 360 grabs....

[NateW]

The only advantage I see to softboots is being able to walk more comfortable. For that I have sneakers.

For everything else, I have an easier time in hard boots. Halfpipe took some getting used to, but I'm getting more air in hard boots than I was in softies (admittedly, that's not saying a whole lot) and I have no interest in riding softies there either.

And like Phil said, I was never comfy in soft boots. Quite the opposite. By the time I felt like I had a good solid connection to the board, my feet were killing me. Hard boots are way more comfortable.

Oh wait, there's one more thing hard boots ain't so good at: tweaking airs. Nose grabs especially suck. It's a small price to pay.

[woodman]

if you think hard-booters and carving are dead or near extinction! If you want to see the sport being promoted and thriving you need to spend a weekend on my mountain. We've got quite a following here and almost every weekend a race being held with hard-booters from 12-40+ competing. I've posted here before on the old site that I believe per-capita we've got more hard-booters than most of the other members mountains I've heard of on this site. I'm teaching my 8 year old to do it, and he's into his second season this year. He'll be riding a Burton 135cm FP with step-ins and as soon as his feet grow a little more I'll throw down for some of the Raichle 224's they've got here at Bomber so his Alpine set-up will be complete. I'm into my 3rd season and am trying to promote/convert as many people as I can too at least give the sport a try especially if I see them going "surf style" down the hill. One of the guys on our local ski patrol even loans out his alpine gear so that people can try it at no cost, save the lift ticket, to them. Our local Alpine guru (Big D)down at one of our board shops is currently looking into a deal with Donek and was trying to get Coiler involved, but he's so back logged he just laughed when ask about providing boards for him to sell in his shop. Maybe hard-booting is fading out where you ride at, but brother it's on it's way up in my town. I'm proud to ride Alpine gear and plan on becoming a one man/one boy ambassador for the sport.

Good carving,

Paul

[Hans]

Words can't tell, pictures do. Well said enough now, you can't do this turn/carve after carve with a soft set up without loosing control and not to talk about the stability of this set up.

[Doug M]

Great pictures ,But you are wrong.You just hav'nt seen it yet


Doug M

[Hans]

Okay, Doug
You make me curious. Let's see some pictures or avimovie of extremecarving with a soft setup on an extremecarve board. Can't wait to see them.

Myself I ride a soft setup on a longboard with an alpine layout and characteristics, but I can't lay down carves with this board like I do with a carveboard and hardboots.
I can ride my longboard as fast as a carveboard/alpineboard can do. But I prefer my SWOARD with hardboots and this season I am gonna try my just yesterday arrived TD2's stepin to lay down some ECcarves.

Greets, Hans.

[NateW]

How do you get rid of the toe/heel overhang when carving with softies?

Wide board + short feet?
High stance angles?

(High by softboot standards... like 20+)

[eddie]

One good lesson that I learned from my rock climbing instructor was shut up and climb. Instead of pondering silly "what if" questions, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

[Bordy]

Most boys and girls that rip on hard boots can make the change to soft boots and still rail turns! I have lots off softy set ups that I can still lay out turns with the same style as on hard boots but not with the same power.

Its all about the tool, Maciek makes a poiont about cars. same as motorcyles a dirt bike vs street bike. With the right slicks and suspension you can still rail a dirt bike! With the right angles and gear you can rail a softy set up! But the control is not the same.

This are not my rules they are the laws of physics!

Last point, As a aging racer one of the greatest joys was coming up the chair of the practice hill,( at any race event) looking at all the trenches in the snow and being so stoked. The stoke of seeing trenches has faded some since then. The reason why is simple, now they are commen place. One ride up my local hill and I see thousands of trenches from skiiers and riders. Many of them in there fist few years on the hill! Shaped skiis are the tools that gave millions of skiers the edge they needed to carve better! Alpine snowboards do the same for our sport. Many of the posters here may have never learned to carve, was it not for their alpine set up! However just like there has been killer skiiers railing turns on strait long skiis since the early 70's. There will be guys on soft boots digging deeper trenches on softys then other hard boot riders.

I live and ride were there are lots of current and ex pro, boys and girls. the level of riding here blows away most of the "little hill level" that most of you are used to. I am not saying your local hill does not have hot riders etc. I am saying that major resort draws heavey hitters I see the heavey hitters ride and some of these kids can make a softy setup turn however they choose! Then huck and spin like a diver, thats the level or riding now. This week while the Grand Prix was here I spent time visisting with some old friends. This lead me into the park with lots of the super pipe boys and girls. I was riding with all the new school kids "Shaun White and crew" They all believe turning is the most important part of riding Plan and simple. The days of the skided turn at the pro level have past. Try to hold an edge in a icee super pipe!

The carved turn is now commen in all sliding sports. Here at PC it is the norm. We hard booters are no longer the masters of the carve we once were! Our turn has been past down to the next generation they have taken the carve and used it to improve the sport. As a hardboot pioneer I'm stoked the skills and turn I helped master and at first stuggled to teach, has been taught to so many that it's now the norm!

Go carve! Go carve however you want!

If you take the time to share the turn with any one, then you are a carving ambassador.

If you take the time to bitch about someone elses carving or gear! You are a carving biggot.

Pick one and stay with it.

Are you a Pro carve(er)?

Or are you a Pro Biggot? :eek:

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by eddie
One good lesson that I learned from my rock climbing instructor was shut up and climb. Instead of pondering silly "what if" questions, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

You know, it's only a matter of time in each thread, if it gets heated enough (read: interesting), that someone says "just go out and riiiide, maaan".

This is the mating call of terminal intermediates.

If you just want to surf the mountain and take in the good vibe, great, that is way cool. But some of us actually <i>enjoy</i> debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.
-Jack

[Steve Dold]

At least no one has invoked Godwin's Law (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/) yet :^)

Doug, for me it's probably "no", because I like the precision feel of hard boots and plates. Just as there are always going to be those who prefer a manual transmission, there will always be those who prefer the 100% direct connection. Any soft boot that approaches that stiffness isn't really a "soft" boot (to me) anyway, it's a hard boot made with fabric and rubber and got knows what all kludge reinforcements.

[Doug M]

Interesting answers from alot of people.Remember The question I asked was ,"If you could".Who cares what the equipment is.Hard boot/soft boot...Too many of you replied no,as If wearing hardboots is some sort of badge of courage or something.Carving is carving regardless of the equipment.Would,nt it be great if you could have equipment that could carve turns down to your hip(without foot pain) and still skid around on technical terrain.It can be done with the combination of equipment and technique..No one piece of equipment will do all things to the highest level.But it's nice to see the industry putting out better boards, boots and bindings that can do 90% of all at a high level.I for one am excited about this.I think the future of "good technique" and carving looks good because of the new soft equipment coming out.

If I posted on a freestyle site If you could freestyle on hard boots better then you could on soft boots with added control on hard pack....I have a feeling some of the answers might be very similar to what I just read.....except with your an FFFing idiot thrown in :D

Doug M

[Steve Dold]

A lot of the fun for me is being different. I don't know why, but I think a lot of people are that way. It's why people buy Mini Coopers, for example.

[woodman]

I just got back from picking up my two new set-ups from my local shop and after standing around gawking & talking with these guys for 45 minutes I gotta say I'd stick with my hard boot set-up no matter what. These guys told me themselves the fun they had this week checking out my boards and admiring the advancement in alpine technology represented in my new Silberfeil and titanium step-ins. These are no "light weights" either, we're talking guys who have free rode and hardbooted for over a decade and combined represent some 70 odd years of free riding/racing combined. No offense Bordy, but my home mountain has it's share of top notch hardbooters as well, like last years Junior Canadian Championship winner, even though we're a "little" mountain. Being different is part of the allure of hardbooting, just like riding a twin against japan's major 4 brands of inline fours was in road racing. Carving is a style of riding, how you get it done is up to you......I prefer the hard boots.

Good carving,

Paul

[Bordy]

Jack you are way off base.


You know, it's only a matter of time in each thread, if it gets heated enough (read: interesting), that someone says "just go out and riiiide, maaan".


This is the mating call of terminal intermediates.


If you just want to surf the mountain and take in the good vibe, great, that is way cool. But some of us actually enjoy debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.

First Jack, Most of the tech talk on this site is writen by terminal intermediates! Perhaps thats why so many posters still have no idea.

Maybe that also why none of my peers liked posting here. And stopped.

It hurts to see the kid get FLAMED!

Have you spoke with the cat (eddie) who posted the have a good time vibe?

You know you are inferring about Eddie's riding.

I would sure hate to be this Eddie guy. Stuck at a terminal intermediate level. Its a good thing I go make turns with him (read as I may make this post interesting since he is a bro!)

Lets see he is now in his second year on Plates he is now riding one of my old race boards (Burton WCFP 185) and can rail turns on par with 90% off the kids I know.

He has posted lots of, how come, help, advise, questions in the past and still has received very little GOOD ADVISE from this board.

Instead, the same mix mesages and comments by uneducated folk, as well as some real advise from a few.

I think its funny that He happens to be the bases for your comments.

I also think as some one who is listed as one of the "good guys" here you would be more open to the right on vibe.

You're also In with the east coasters. You know thoose guys who have a day job and can type very fast. Hang out on BOL all day talking about riding. Looking foward to ECES so you can all learn to ride a littlle better by talking Technique now? So why not take the time to infer he's some happy hippy by draging out a few letters of text to only help alienate him from your east coast bro's.

Maybe now evertime he post, everyone will take the time to think "hay that eddie dude is posting, Jack inferred he's a terminal intermediate And Jacks a MODERATOR so lets label him as one. Who cares this is just the internet no one has real feeling here its online, Right!

Instead Maybe he is some kid who learned every thing about carving online! When I came across him floundering down the hill charging his ass off. He told me he had learned to carve from BOL and EXTREMECARVING.COM.

Jack that mean in some small way you helped this Kid learn to love to carve.

Its so nice to see you are the one to make fun of him for his new found love as well.

Its good he came full circle right?

I'm just shocked to see you throw around words that judge some one riding.

I am also surprised at this comment.

But some of us actually enjoy debating technique. This is what advances the school of carving theory, and results in the equipment that allows you to surf the mountain better.

Got to call the big Bull**** on this and you know how right I am.
There are maybe 10 people on this site who are correct or close enough to talk about technique. And when the 10 of you start chating you all still can't agree.

I sure hope you have been doing lots of R&D for some big name companys and you and your friends have been talking about carving theroy. Since I'm sure you have it right by now! Who makes this great gear again? Its that big name manufactuor right. Whats their name again?

Point being I have been pushing carving and plates to the next level for so long it just plane hurts to see some one cut some one down for LOVING TO RIDE.

The kid is happy to be on plates.

Be happy for him.


I am no authority on that subject, and honestly I'm not interested in becoming one. A section like that would dovetail nicely with the Welcome Center, under the "Not Quite Ready?" link.

Also I have to agree you are not authority on that subject and the fact that you think NOT QUITE READY. is a good title for people that want to carve on softy is cool, is also a bummer.

Thats what the good vibe is all about I like to think more along the lines of welcoming anyone to the carve reguardless of gear!

Jack remember the hardboot brotherhood is about the feeling of the turn the love of the carve and the joy of the sport. Just because you come to worship in soft boots does not mean we turn you away at the door.

Go out and ride some softys carve some sick turns then come and tell us what it is like to ride in anotehr mans shoes!


, why don't we just all do what we enjoy to do- CARVE. Go out and enjoy life.

Good advise from a good guy!

[Bordy]

I'm sure all your hills have solid riders. The folks I chat with about riding, skiing, and the love of the slide have titles like olympic______(insert medal color of choice)medalest so and so, or overall world superpipe champion__________or US team coach ___________ or WC tuner_____________US team member__________ that is the town PC is, the benifits of haveing the olympic training center here means some of the best winter atheletes in the country live here. Just like it used to be in Lake Placid when I was a little Groom going there to train.

I'm not saying so and so at your hill is not the future. I am saying the kids that rip here are rippers every where they go and they go to every event out there! I just hung out with a bunch of racer and jibbers all week that define the sport as we know it! They are past the hard boot soft boot talk. Just as I am. If you have friends that are or have been pros you know they love the sport! Also you know they have been around enough to know its not how or on what you slide its that you love to slide.

Could be we are just all terminal intermediates!

Maybe we all become experts when we love to ride.

This off course all comes from a guy who stood next to Will Garrow at the end of the US open half pipe contest and together(with about five others) screamed "soft boots are for chicks and fagots" I now know so much more and am sorry to all I offended that day. But hay have you ever had Terje want to beat you up? I have!:D

[Steve Dold]

Jack, I didn't say it in my previous posts but you are right on the money with your comments. There is nothing more irritating than getting a really good technical discussion going and having somebody try to bust up the discussion with "Just shut up an ride, bro". Anyone who doesn't want to read the technical stuff can easily ignore the thread. It's like telling guys in the Paddock at the race track to quit talking about cars and engines and just go out and drive.

Eddie, sorry you got flamed, but it sucks when you throw a wet towel on a thread that a lot of us are enjoying. I hope you stay though, when guys like you and Bordy give advice and opinions I like to hear it.

(Edited to remove some of the anger :D )

[eddie]

I am NEVER going to ride snowboards AGAIN!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!:mad:

Eddie

[eddie]

I don't expect to ever be taken seriously on BOL anyway. I am not within the "in crowd.";)

Discussions about technique are happening all the time on BOL, in fact, the same ones over and over. For a while I was learning much from BOL and after every session that I rode (by myself) I would make a mental note of what I found difficult, come home and search the discussions or essays on BOL about what could be my problem. I would study pictures of American riders, Euro riders, racers, free carvers, just about anything I could find that had just a slightly different angle on the subject to see techniques in a new light. I put foreign web pages through engines that would translate it for me so I could maybe hear something new for more ideas. I could do that forever, even now, but there comes a time when the physical application of what I pondered had to be put to the test.

I knew nobody in the carving community when I bought my first board and bindings. I had never posted a question about technique before my first day out. I have taken the falls. I have come home bruised. But Jack, it was your essays that have taught me how to carve for the first time. It was your discussions and debates about carving technique that inspired me to try to approach each turn differently to find what works bests for me. I want to read technical info but, when I try to seek new, insightful information on BOL the same people are kicking around the same subject.

Now for my rock climbing class analogy. I searched information about rock climbing in the same method. But after a while of probing knowledge from my instructor he ripped back at me by saying, "No more beta Eddie, shut up and climb!" Harsh lesson quickly learned. To reach new horizions, take what you know and push it to the limit.

Bill can be like my rock climbing instructor. I respect the guy and worship the snow he rides on. He can fill me with beta all he wants but he knows that what I need to do is go out and ride. The "terminal intermediates" of this website need to do just that- go out and ride. The best snowboarders in the world can theorize about technique all they want, but at some time they need to just go out and ride.

Now when I posted my first opinion, it wasn't sarcastic, nor was it like, "Ride on dude!" But to get my point across about progression I had to be blunt. But if you are going to flame me and cry. Go on cry baby, cry. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Besides, anyone who does not want to read my stuff can easily ignore my thread.

Umm.. yeahh. Maybe it's the medication I've been taking for the surgery I had three days ago talking, but I feel liberated.:p

[eddie]

This thread started out as, "if you could carve as hard on softboots, would you" subject. Not the, "Well lets see here according to my numbers... physically impossible to... well you know, I am an engineer so,.."

You guys had to come in and ruin his "if you could" post.

[NateW]

Would,nt it be great if you could have equipment that could carve turns down to your hip(without foot pain) and still skid around on technical terrain.

Whaddaya mean "wouldn't it be great if...?"

It *is* great right now, with:

- Coiler AM 174 (an AM 169 with more nose and tail, 21cm waist, 13m sidecut)
- Raichle 324s
- TD1 step-ins

That's not a complete list, that's just what I happen to be riding for the last couple seasons.

I have been riding hard boots for many years (including a few years on 24-25cm waisted freeride boards), and never thought of carving as a goal in itself until 3-4 years ago (when I found this site, got curious, got serious, and got narrower boards). I switched to hard boots because of 'technical terrain,' not in spite of it.

[Jon Dahl]

Doug, in your post you talked about a setup you could carve in, and still ride technical terrain with some ability. Oh yeah, and have comfy feet. Got it. Raichle SB224's, Snowpro Fast race bindings, 19 to whatever waist width board you want. Foot comfort was why I started with the plastic boots in the first place. Carving soon followed after! And BTW, lets not flame anyone about shut up and ride. My keyboard skills suck (henpecking) but the mans right, there is NO replacement for slope time, or time spent crimping edges, or dragging your knee on pavement......

[Jack Michaud]

Bordy,

Did I call Eddie a terminal intermediate? No. Don't infer. Don't interpret. I stand by my post. People who live by the mantra of "just shut up and ride" or, "just do what feels good" <i>typically</i> will reach a plateau in their riding and stay there. Am I wrong? If Eddie is not one of these people, then he should know the comment was not directed at him. If other people are going to label him now (which I highly doubt), that is their stupid problem.

It's just a little irritating when we're trying to discuss technique in the hopes of improving ourselves, and along comes someone who looks down their nose at us and says something like "you guys need to go ride and get your head together", as if there's something wrong with us. Of course we all want to just go out and ride. That should go without saying.

Also, your list of associates is quite impressive, but I'm not sure I need etiquette lessons from someone who yelled "softboots are for..." at a halfpipe contest. By the way, I thought that was hilarious. I might have chosen different words, but you've definitely got big ones.

Eddie,

Sorry to make an example out of you. I think you and everyone else knows that I don't have any idea how you ride, nor do I know if you live by the "shut up and ride" motto or not. Therefore, the terminal intermediate comment wasn't directed at you specifically, so don't take it personally. I'm very glad that my articles here have helped you, and it sounds like you are hungry to learn (as am I), which is great. I have also enjoyed your other posts, you seem like a good guy.

You are definitely right that at some point someone does have to step back and shut-up-and-ride, but I don't think that here is the right place to tell someone that. I think only an instructor watching your riding in person can tell you that. Here is where people come when they're <i>not</i> shutting up and riding.

As for the repetitiveness of the info discussed here, it is because not everyone is in synch with you and everyone else in their carving progression. It seems every week there is another green carver showing up here with the same old questions, and that's great, that's why we're here. As for new stuff, well, start something! I'm working on a new tech article myself, but I can only do so much, being the working stiff that I am. I also think there is some good fresh stuff that gets discussed every now and then.

Peace,
-Jack

[John Gilmour]

I ride with Vin Q in softies from time to time. I think we have somewhat similar soft boot carving styles - though Vin gets lower.

Vin prefers the versatility of a super stiff soft boot set up. Vin rides everything- powder, trees, glades, groomers etc.

I, on the other hand, tend towards prefering a softer hardboot set up. I am not a tree guy or powder hound (unless I'm out west).


I can take a hard boot set up and a soft boot set up- ride boards of equivalent sidecut and go out and cut some arcs - and for the sake of comparison- match the lower speed of the soft boot set up.

IMHO the hard boot set up wins. I suppose they should be the same since you are cutting the same turns at the same speed- in fact for some the soft boots comfort factor should win out.


So apparently I can match the performance (mostly by decreasing my hard boot performance) and then rate the experience.

The thrill- is not as great with soft boots- you don't get that Super cutting power- edge transitions take more effort in soft boots.

Take two decks of the same materials and construction methods and longitudinal flex-the wider one will ussually twist more.

So what this means is that in the wider soft boot set up you must compensate for board twist by exagerating your own body twist and by torqueing the crap out of your boots and bindings. Personally I find this considerably less comfortable - particularly on the heelside.

For the same speed the soft boot set up should require you to ride lower- mostly to make up for the aforementioned shortcomings. But you can only go so low....then once down on the snow you approach your speed limits of holding the carve pretty rapidly. The only things supporting you after this are the stiffness of your boots and bindings. Which- are both softer than hardboots and bindings.

You can carve well on soft boots but not with the same power, speed and precision. Being on soft boots cuts out at least 20%-30% of my top carving speed, 50%-60% of my power,30% of the g's, and 60-70% of the thrill..........but it still can look good to lesser carvers from the lifts, and since you are in softies you get more respect from other soft boot riders- IMHO I'd rather look like a mutant in hard boots having a killer time than ride soft boots and look killer but feel less than thrilled.

Porsche has a new SUV the Cayenne S, and while it is versatile , fast and can corner well- it is simply no match on paved roads for Porsches with similar horsepower and vintage. Whats more thrilling- cornering in a Porsche SUV, or cornering faster in a Ferrari? Some people might choose the SUV to be different. You can see people racing SUV's on pavement on the "speed network".

Soft boot carving is great though when I find myself on terrain that I would be bored on in hard boots. At killington after 11am lots of trails get tracked out and Snowdon still has decent snow- so after 11 when I feel stuck at a small vertical drop area with limited terrain the soft boots keep it interesting. I'll tend to ride softies when I'm riding with snowboarders with less experience- or when stuck on slower snow, or when at smaller resorts with moderate pitches- then teh trade off from soft to hard boots doesn't seem as great.
________
VAPORIZER REVIEWS (http://vaporizers.tv/)

[eddie]

But, you did infer that I was a terminal intermediate, and, this post was not a technical discussion. As you can see from Doug's last post he is fustrated that everyone has taken the technical line.

Doug

If I could ride soft boots and get the same carve I would. There are less things on the boot that can break.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by eddie
But, you did infer that I was a terminal intermediate, and, this post was not a technical discussion. As you can see from Doug's last post he is fustrated that everyone has taken the technical line.


Okay, then I apologize for inferring that you are a terminal intermediate. Friends?

Back on topic now... I would say that the original question was somewhat technical in nature, unless it was only supposed to be a poll, because how are you supposed to answer without getting a little technical? I happen to think the question is - what's the right term here, trivial? Because I don't believe any softboot setup will ever match the carving performance of a hardboot setup. If there was such a thing, of course, who wouldn't use it?
-Jack

[willywhit]

Now that the obligatory "biggots and faggots" rally is hopefully over, does anyone have some more useful input? I'm interested to know what a stiffy soft setup would be. I'd love to hear Vin's take since he's got keys to the toy store and has weeded out everything that doesn't work well. Beyond old K2 clickers and flows, I have no idea what a good softie setup would be. This thread has well over 900 looks in 4 days.People wanna know. WHAT is THE STIFFIEST soft boot set up out there? Am I a terminal intermediate if I can't seem to lay down carves on the steep, icey bumped up double blacks?<><>

[Grady]

jack you are 100% right, that stuff adds nothing to the discussion. Doug, what angles are you riding with your setup, is there any way I could keep my 60 degree angles, that is what I find most comfortable.

[Shred Gruumer]

Ja, guffa glemesch stanaseich! U no how long it tuuk me to get on dis tread, man this must be the fastest moving tread in history!

Sloooow down, vas its dis!

Ja, I wood have to agrrree dat if I could, I wuud ride a das soft boat everytime. Vay better dan hard. day are to stiff and put to much leverage on my board and den I turn to quick! I have to get really low, and den I don't see the seancery as much! I don't like it like dat, dats why I am been moving to softy boots much better now I can ride side ways! awesome feeling when riding plus my toes act as a high performace brembo breaks, just do a toe turn and you can check your speed! I don't like the instant transition or da precise interface it give you either, board to stiff to, can never fold the nose over like I can do with a free board, so much better. And the alpine board is to fast from edge to egde on my 24 cm waist free ride board it only takes me to 20seconds to go edge to zie edge, much gooder!

I kant karve as good on my alpine anymore the advance in Softies has helped me better!

Just looky at all the advances in Soft free ride stuff! the new Deluux softboots the Indy and Suzuka's and the free ride boards the Silbertfiels are awesome. Out here in da mother land Virus make good free ride stuff to called the Phantom's and the Cybog. So dats why I ride free ride and softies.

Right Said Shred

[Doug M]

The set up that I have ended up to be Nitro Havok boots,Catek freeride bindings and a 169 Ride yukon.I have a 28.5 foot and the Board is 27 cm Wide.If the solomon malamute boot is a 2 on a scale of 1-5 the havok is a 5.At 6,1 and 195 pounds the malamutes are too soft for me to carve on all day.Vin weighs about 140 and this combined with his height seems to be the ticket for him.My front foot is around 40 degrees and the rear in the low twenties to prevent any boot out.The boot is stiff enough for quick transistions but still soft enough to be forgiving.

I have some thoughts on why it can carve so hard for a soft setup and I would like to bounce it off some of you to see if you agree or disagree.I am not totally sure myself but here it goes.
When we carve it is very important to be able to get the board to a very high angle off the snow in as short of time period as possible.As we make a transistion from heal to toe we try to duplicate this as quick as possible on the opposite edge While keeping body posistion.....Cross over, cross under.Euro.....
Once the board is at that high angle I notice that the amount of pressure on the boot seems to lesson compared to the act of actually getting it up on edge.Almost as if you direct more pressure to the center of the board during the carve where boot stiffness is less important.But you still need a certain level of boot stiffness in order to make the transistion fast and hard.I am sure
someone might be able to prove or dissprove what I noticed using physics.

I am sorry this post seems to have caused a bit of a problem.I meant it to be fun,figure out what other riders are thinking out there,And bounce some Ideas off people.It's all Good.

Doug M

[Jon Dahl]

was Flexible Axel's using Switch stepins. I noticed a certain amount of vagueness not during transition but once set into the edge. It always felt like my boot was flexing under me when pushing the board. Always noticed this more on the toeside edge. Ran35f/25r for angles on a Sims all-mountain 160. The Axel had 2 straps on it, one for forward lean and was as stiff a freeride boot as I could find, almost as stiff as the original Clicker stiff boots.(rode those too) My $.02 American

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Doug M

I have some thoughts on why it can carve so hard for a soft setup and I would like to bounce it off some of you to see if you agree or disagree.I am not totally sure myself but here it goes.
When we carve it is very important to be able to get the board to a very high angle off the snow in as short of time period as possible.As we make a transistion from heal to toe we try to duplicate this as quick as possible on the opposite edge While keeping body posistion.....Cross over, cross under.Euro.....
Once the board is at that high angle I notice that the amount of pressure on the boot seems to lesson compared to the act of actually getting it up on edge.Almost as if you direct more pressure to the center of the board during the carve where boot stiffness is less important.But you still need a certain level of boot stiffness in order to make the transistion fast and hard.I am sure
someone might be able to prove or dissprove what I noticed using physics.


I find that at high speed, I really need to pressure the nose of the board at the turn initiation. If you don't want to take my word for it, Mark Fawcett wrote an article about the importance of this for Snowboard Life a few years ago. Softboots/bindings just don't have the lateral support for this and other maneuvers.



I am sorry this post seems to have caused a bit of a problem.I meant it to be fun,figure out what other riders are thinking out there,And bounce some Ideas off people.It's all Good.


Not at all Doug, it's a great thread, very interesting. If you're having fun on a particular setup, that's great, and people need to hear it.
-Jack

[jason_watkins]

Originally posted by Doug M
If the solomon malamute boot is a 2 on a scale of 1-5 the havok is a 5.

Well, that got my attention. I'm about Vin's weight and using malmutes... but lately they've been feeling packed out. Can you detail how the havok and malamute compare a bit more? I don't turn my boot more than 30, and even then, it feels a little soft laterally. Is the havok stiffer sideways? They fit skinny feet as well as salomon?

[Doug M]

I have very narrow feet and they are one of the best fitting boots I have worn.Lateral stiffness is very good and they do not compress when you crank down on your binding strap.They are one of the only soft boots that I have tried out of way too many to list that I can drive with my shins as opposed to your ankles.The result = no foot pain:cool: .For me anyway

Doug M

[jason_watkins]

Thanks Doug, I'm gonna check em out.

[Todd Stewart]

I noticed that a lot of you cited that foot pain was holding you back from switching back to softies. If you are looking for a solution I would recommend drilling two hole at the tops of your high backs and adding a third strap to your binding. I cannot stress enough how this has improved my riding when in a softies setup, not only has it removed any pain which I once had but also has increased the power in my toe side turns dramatically. As for overhanging feet, I’m thinking about making some riser plates out of a plastic cutting board.
Anyways my motto is softies for powder and trees, plates for everything else; which basically means my softies collect dust since I live in Ontario.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Once you've added a third strap and are in the stiffest soft boots you can find, what exactly about that setup is an improvement over a set of softish hard boots? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'd like to know. You can't bend your ankles sideways anymore to tweak anything, you're wrestling with 3 straps at the top and bottom of every lift and all for a reduced level of performance. Is there something in there I'm missing?

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Once you've added a third strap and are in the stiffest soft boots you can find, what exactly about that setup is an improvement over a set of softish hard boots? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'd like to know. You can't bend your ankles sideways anymore to tweak anything, you're wrestling with 3 straps at the top and bottom of every lift and all for a reduced level of performance. Is there something in there I'm missing?

I'd say you're missing nothing - you've nailed it right on the head.
-Jack

[Doug M]

I agree.At a certain point you might as well just ride the hard boots.It gets to be a fine line where one ends and the other begins.

Doug M

[Todd Stewart]

Yeah you're right about the tweaking part, since i ride little pipe and park it dosn't have that much of an effect on me. The two main reasons i use the third strap is to take away all foot pain and to reduce the time spent readjusting myself to riding softies. To awnser you're question, personally I don't think I'd be able to ride power and glades as well in hard boots.

[Jagger]

Originally posted by Doug M
If you could carve as hard on a soft set up as on your hardboot set up would you ever put on hard boots again.Imagine having the versatility of a soft boots while being able to lay out carves of a 170 cm alpine board......Hard boots might become a thing of the past.As a matter of fact it is becoming a thing of the past.10 years ago you could go to a mountain in the northeast and see 10 alpine riders at it.Now every 2 trips you might see one other.
7 years ago I was a buyer for one of the largest shops in the northeast and we sold over 120 alpine boards out of 1600 decks sold.Today that shop sells 0.What Happened????.

The reason I bring this up is because I just put together a setup of catek fr bindings/Oxygen 70 quantum(27 cm wide) and Nitro Havok (super stiff soft boots).This settup carves as hard as many of the alpine decks I have had with the versitility and comfort of a soft boot...The Donek and atf 700's might see an early retirement.If you don't Believe it, just ask people who have seen Vin Q ride.He is a couple years ahead of the carving learning curve and figured it out a number of years ago.Keep an open mind and give it a try

:D

Doug M You can if yer good. Ive done it on my hauser fatchick only thing that aint there is the speed