toe/heel lift- so what du reckon??

[rikytheripster]

most ppl still using the classic, toe upfront and heel lift rear?

[Bobby Buggs]

I used a small toe and large heel lift all last year. At the end i took the heel lift out and rode with just the small toe lift. I though it was going to make a big difference but no. All personal preference. I think I will stay with the toe lift to avoid the front leg pain issue.
a good friend rides flat with both bindings at 60 so go figure:confused:

[Jack Michaud]

I love using toe and heel lift, I think it's quite valuable to be able to use a wider stance comfortably. The wider stance improves balance and stability, and using the lifts increases your mobility, all which will help your carving. Some people use only heel lift on the back foot and do quite well, but I don't know how they do it! I tried it last year just for the sake of experimenting, and I got major front leg burn.
-Jack

[Jon Dahl]

anybody have any ideas on how to get some more toe lift on my Snowpro Fast race bindings? I'd like to open up my stance width some more and think I'll need to lift the toe (front boot) to do it comfortably. Anyone?

[AustrianCarver]

Do you also use canting on one or both bindings together with toe and heel lift or just the toe and heel lift?

[ARCrider]

I use toe lift with cant and heel lift with cant. Cateks are great for adjusting both to keep my hips balanced over the board.

[wile]

if your snowpro's came with canting plates, put two together to cancel each other out. If not, play with your snowpro's , some seem to come with lifters already,. maybe remove the rear front and the front back binging lift. if this doesn't work, bother Dan Yoja at www.ups.com, he is probally where you got your snow pro's from concidering he is the only importer in the US i know of.

[woodman]

After reading Jack's statement about front leg burn, I'm going to try a small toe lift. I usually ride with a heel lift and cant in back to help keep my back knee tucked in, but this weekend I was out on my new set-up and experienced front quad burn like nothing I've ever felt. I just chalked it up to it being my first time out this season and having new boots/board/bindings set-up. I had tried this when I first started alpine boarding 2 seasons ago with full lift/cant combos front and back and damn near killed myself my first day out. The transition to a flatter stance helped my learning curve and now I find I can't believe I rode without lifts or cants before at all. Thanks Jack!!!


Paul

[k_t]

I used to use toe lift (front) with canting and heel lift (rear) with canting because I am a fan of the Bomber TD’s and that is the nature of the TD1’s. Now with the new TD2’s I think that I will stay with lift only.

Just this week I was riding at Targee in WY and took a minute (or 10) to experiment with the new TD2 as this was only the second day out on them mounted on my new Coiler. The ride was so good in the recommended starting position, (cant with lift to put you into a familiar position) that I was hesitant to take the time to change the bindings cant/lift disk and adjust them to a position of just lift only. After about 6-8 runs 2 of us decided to make the time to try it to see what would happen. Immediately after steeping into the front binding and skating over to the lift I could feel a huge difference in my foot and leg in relation to the board and figured I would experience one of two things, 1, I would hate it and wish that I had not done it on such an awesome day of carving. Or 2, I would not notice any or much difference. All I have to say now is WOW!!!!!!!! After making about one and a half turns I could tell a huge difference and a third option came to light. This is one of the coolest things about the binding. My hips and legs were now in even a more relaxed position making the turn even more fun and I even felt more relaxed in, through, and out of the turn. Nice job Bomber.

Not to forget, without any question, the new Coiler was the biggest part of the fun that day. OK, OK. The rest of the crew was cool too.

[philw]

I found that with a narrow stance (which I like), that you can trade toe/heel lift with boot lean. I used to ride flat, but these days I go for a degree of lift in the "traditional" places, plus I have the boots maximally tilted. That is, I have the front boot as upright as possible so I can push on it, and the back one with as much forward-lean as I can get. My boots are standard Raichle jobbies, stiff cuffs.

Some powder boards (especially Solomon and some more recent Burtons but not the Fish) have very wide stances, presumably to accommodate the required baggy pants with low-hanging crotch. Those are difficult to ride for those of us with sensibly-sized legs... more toe and heel lift is a partial solution to that.

I never tried canting as my legs/ feet are all plugged in reasonably straight. Would there be any reason to use canting with high angles other than to correct orthopaedic problems?

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by woodman
After reading Jack's statement about front leg burn, I'm going to try a small toe lift. I usually ride with a heel lift and cant in back to help keep my back knee tucked in

Paul, glad I can help. Now read this (http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm)!
-Jack

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by philw

I never tried canting as my legs/ feet are all plugged in reasonably straight. Would there be any reason to use canting with high angles other than to correct orthopaedic problems?

You don't have to have some kind of orthopaedic problem in order to use cants/lifts. Using toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot allows you to use a wider stance with the same comfort as your good ol' narrow stance. The wider stance will improve your balance and stability, and make your carves more powerful. Give it a try and report back here!
-Jack

[Carp]

I'd like to experiment with this. Is there a way on the TD1's to get toe lift? I've 0* cant in the front and 3* on my rear foot. I typically don't get shin bang, however the toe lift sounds like it might provide more leverage on toe sides and allow the rider to get lower on heelsides. I'm probably missing something all together, but would like to play around with it if possible with my TD's.

Thanks!

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Carp
I'd like to experiment with this. Is there a way on the TD1's to get toe lift? I've 0* cant in the front and 3* on my rear foot. I typically don't get shin bang, however the toe lift sounds like it might provide more leverage on toe sides and allow the rider to get lower on heelsides. I'm probably missing something all together, but would like to play around with it if possible with my TD's.

Simple. Get a 3* disc for the front and have it slope towards the tail. This setup also gives you some inward cant, which I happen to like fine on my front foot, but I like pure heel lift on my back foot. To get pure lift out of the TD1, I use a trick that is not endorsed by Bomber, so proceed with caution. I sandwich nickels between the toe/heel pads and the baseplate. One nickel thick, under one side of the pad to give a little reverse canting and cancel the inward cant of the TD1 disc.
-Jack

[philw]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
You don't have to have some kind of orthopaedic problem in order to use cants/lifts.

As I said, I already use toe & heel lifts, although I used to achieve the same effect entirely through boot lean.

My question was about cants, for people with standard leg geometry. Clearly at the sort of angles we're riding canting makes no difference to stance width, so what's it for? Just wondering; I've no desire to bend my legs that way myself.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by philw
As I said, I already use toe & heel lifts, although I used to achieve the same effect entirely through boot lean.




Not possible and incorrect.

Boot lean does not achieve the same exactly effect as heel/toe lift. Lean from heel/toe lift is an additional effect and it is secondary effect. However, the most important is proper lifting of your foot rather than lean of lower leg.

The ankle angle is different with both solutions. If you try to correct foot position with lean then you may get uncomfortable (and sometime even painful) ankle compression as well as limit it's ability to work in proper range while riding snowboard.

You would use lifts if you wanted to increase stance width (in higher stance angles) or to correct preassure in different parts of edge on board (early/late turn initiation/exit).

Lean is used rather to lower your body position in order work your knees more properly to your movement abilities.

In some situations you may not need lean the boot but simply release it to walk position so your lower leg will lean it as needed.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by philw
As I said, I already use toe & heel lifts, although I used to achieve the same effect entirely through boot lean.

My question was about cants, for people with standard leg geometry. Clearly at the sort of angles we're riding canting makes no difference to stance width, so what's it for? Just wondering; I've no desire to bend my legs that way myself.

Ahh, guess I missed that, although I would argue that you can achieve a more effective position with lifts than you can with just boot adjustments. Cants, lifts, boot adjustments, what's it all for? Just to get the most balanced, stable position possible that works for <i>you</i>. And in general, a wider (not stupid-wide) stance will be more stable, so if you can make a wider stance work comfortably for you, you'll probably be better off.

Experimenting is rarely a bad thing. I used to like pure lift on both feet. Now I find I like a blend of inward cant and toe lift on the front foot, and heel lift with a little bit of outward cant on the rear foot.
-Jack

[philw]

Not possible and incorrect.
Yes, I understand that. You perhaps missed the fact that I didn't use the word "exactly", precisely because if the two were exactly the same, they'd be the same.

I'm sorry that what I did was incorrect and impossible..

[philfell]

Personally I ride flat in the front foot and the standard Burton cant/lift combo in the back. With most common angles people ride this cant/lift plate really provides mostly lift and very little cant. I choose this set-up because I feel it puts me in the most natural position possible. If you stand on the floor and pretned that you are on your snowboard and you bend your knees your rear heel naturally comes off the ground. While this happens to your rear heel your front foot remains flat.

The reason I don't simply put more forward lean in my boot is by doing this your heel still wants to lift off the ground. So you are opening youself up to more problems like unnessiary heel lift in your boots and even bone spurs on the heel; also since you aren't standing naturally on you board your body is slightly fighting your stance and you can't get as much out of your turn as you could.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by philw
Yes, I understand that. You perhaps missed the fact that I didn't use the word "exactly", precisely because if the two were exactly the same, they'd be the same.

I'm sorry that what I did was incorrect and impossible..



You may be sorry... because you might have had wrong impression that it is the same or thought (incorrectly) that it was the same. You do not need to be sorry that some (or both) of these may actually work for you very well while bringing that wrong impression to you;)

Still not possible to achieve the same with one or the other, but as Jack suggests if that setup works for you then go with it.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by philfell
If you stand on the floor and pretned that you are on your snowboard and you bend your knees your rear heel naturally comes off the ground. While this happens to your rear heel your front foot remains flat.


bet you a dollar that if you put on your hardboots, stand on the floor and pretend that you are on your snowboard, your front foot toe will come up too.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by philfell
Personally I ride flat in the front foot and the standard Burton cant/lift combo in the back. With most common angles people ride this cant/lift plate really provides mostly lift and very little cant. I choose this set-up because I feel it puts me in the most natural position possible. If you stand on the floor and pretned that you are on your snowboard and you bend your knees your rear heel naturally comes off the ground. While this happens to your rear heel your front foot remains flat.

The reason I don't simply put more forward lean in my boot is by doing this your heel still wants to lift off the ground. So you are opening youself up to more problems like unnessiary heel lift in your boots and even bone spurs on the heel; also since you aren't standing naturally on you board your body is slightly fighting your stance and you can't get as much out of your turn as you could.


Exactly!

Also I believe that this is why cant system with disks from Bomber and alike working as rather lift at high angles than cant is called "natural cant" or something similar.

Anyway, cant is yet another thing and it is used for yet another correction, but I bet that Coiler web site explains that very well.


I ride on Bomber TD1 lift/can 3 degrees on "front" foot and flat on the back. As I explained it few times on this forum in last years it corrects problem with spending too much time on the tip of board and skidding tail (instead of accelerating nicely) and problems with toe side turn initiation. I am just built this damn way :(

"Gas pedal" solution is from Fin ;)