step in vs bail closure bindings

[boogieman]

What do you guys prefer and why

[Tommy D]

Ease of entry/exit. Bling.

I love being able to step into my binding while gliding along, and steping out again with no effort approaching the lift line. Major cool factor!

Plus, when those pins engage, I know I'm locked in and secure.

Did I mention bling? :D

[boogieman]

isnt the cable kind of annoying

[Tommy D]

I don't even notice the cable. It doesn't get in my way, and even makes a convenient carry handle.

Most of the time, I can pull the release even when it is under my pants, but I have seen some arrange the cable so it comes out through their pant leg.

At first, I was concerned about comfort in the boot, but it turned out to be a non-issue

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another huge factor is if you're at a resort with lots of flats - yank the cable and you're skating, step back in on the fly without losing any momentum. I'll never go back to toe levers.

[Randy S.]

Step-ins all the way for me.

I cut a hole in my pants around mid-thigh and had a cobbler reinforce the hole with leather. I stick a fastex clip in the top of the release handle (yes, it is built to accept a clip - 3/4" I think), run a piece of web strapping from that up inside my pant leg and come out at the hole. I attached a cheap bottle opener that looks like a climbing 8 to the end that hangs out. Not only can I open a bottle on the slopes, but I can release my leag w/out even bending down. It works great when you ride into line or want to step out on the flats.

I wish I could take credit for the idea. I stole it from Hiroshi and Scott Ferrell (Scott made a really cool custom pull gizmo - better than my bottle opener).

You can buy all the supplies for this at REI.

[boogieman]

if you fall down real hard and your unlucky youl have a bottle opener stuck in your knee!
id go for something soft if i went for your option wich sounds pretty nice exept for the injury part

[Randy S.]

Originally posted by boogieman
if you fall down real hard and your unlucky youl have a bottle opener stuck in your knee!
id go for something soft if i went for your option wich sounds pretty nice exept for the injury part

I've fallen pretty hard on them and nothing bad has happened. The only drawback is they sometimes snag on the snow-fence that you find in the corral waiting for the lift.

They also come in handy if you find yourself upside down in a tree-well. You can release both bindings without having to touch your toes.

[Derf]

Standard, though I've never tried step-in's. But I like the elegance and simplicity of the fewest moving parts possible, and the fact that it's standard, meaning all boots should work with all bindings (yeah I know, in real life, it doesn't work, like the UPS/UPZ and some older Raichles). And I never poped out, so no problem with that.

[Miguel]

When a cable breaks (rare), it's a real pain getting out of the binding. You need to use something pointy (actually two pointy things), such as a phillips head screwdriver to push in the pins so the heel releases. Until you've located such objects, you're left with two choices. You either walk around with a board attached to your leg, usually the back one which makes for a very awkward walk, or, you take your foot out of the boot and walk around with one boot on and one boot off, also a bit awkward not to mention embarrassing! In any event it totally eradicates the hard boot skinny board kewl factor! Having said all that, I LOVE my step-ins and would never go back. Actually...I have three boards with Bombers, with regular heel/toe clips in the front and step-ins on the rear. It works really well that way.

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by Miguel
When a cable breaks (rare), it's a real pain getting out of the binding. You need to use something pointy (actually two pointy things), such as a phillips head screwdriver to push in the pins so the heel releases. Until you've located such objects, you're left with two choices. You either walk around with a board attached to your leg, usually the back one which makes for a very awkward walk, or, you take your foot out of the boot and walk around with one boot on and one boot off, also a bit awkward not to mention embarrassing! In any event it totally eradicates the hard boot skinny board kewl factor! Having said all that, I LOVE my step-ins and would never go back. Actually...I have three boards with Bombers, with regular heel/toe clips in the front and step-ins on the rear. It works really well that way.

Its kinda like saying I'll never drive a car or truck again since I had a flat tire. It is rare - been on step ins for 5 years never had this or seen this cable issue.

I like step ins -- seems like it is more positive in locking in plus I can step in as I get off the chair and never stop - helps with my skier friends I see now and then. :D

[ARCrider]

I haven't tried step ins yet. maybe this season

[skategoat]

Two things I can say about step-ins.

1) It hurts when you fall on the receivers.

2) Always carry an extra heel assembly when you travel.

[Todd Stewart]

I was at a race a few years back and some dude broke his cable, he would just take his foot out of his boot, put on a shoe and went up the lift line. Now that is commitment.

[skategoat]

Todd:

You're telling me he raced with a shoe on one foot? Must've been at Chedoke.

Henry

[skywalker]

Lateral flex of boots is always an issue. IMHO lateral flex should not been provided by the boot, it should only care for forward/backward mobility and ancle support (and all that can be called comfort and fit). With stiff boot shells, lateral flex can only appear between top sheet of board and surface of boot sole. So either you need bindings with huge lateral flex or a boot/binding-interface with lateral flex. I only can achieve this with standard bindings with bails.

my 2 ct

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by skywalker
Lateral flex of boots is always an issue. IMHO lateral flex should not been provided by the boot, it should only care for forward/backward mobility and ancle support (and all that can be called comfort and fit). With stiff boot shells, lateral flex can only appear between top sheet of board and surface of boot sole. So either you need bindings with huge lateral flex or a boot/binding-interface with lateral flex. I only can achieve this with standard bindings with bails.

my 2 ct

:confused:

[skywalker]

Sorry, if my poor English kept you from understanding :(
If there are any questions, maybe you could precise them ;) ?

[Neil Gendzwill]

He says he wants his lateral flex to come from his bindings, not his boots. Step-ins don't flex as much laterally as conventional bindings.

[Ray]

Originally posted by skywalker
Lateral flex of boots is always an issue. IMHO lateral flex should not been provided by the boot, it should only care for forward/backward mobility and ancle support (and all that can be called comfort and fit). With stiff boot shells, lateral flex can only appear between top sheet of board and surface of boot sole. So either you need bindings with huge lateral flex or a boot/binding-interface with lateral flex. I only can achieve this with standard bindings with bails.

my 2 ct

I like the fact that you can step in and out really quick with the step-ins, but skywalker has a very good point here.
Lateral flex is a very important factor. The stiffer the boot the more lateral flex your bindings should provide.
I think it comes down to personal preference (again) .

Skywalker, how is that Northwave boot working with the VIRUS WCR? I have that same boot, but never used it in such a combination.

[Todd Stewart]

skategoat

no no, he just put his foot back into his binding at the top of the hill and put his shoe in his pocket. During the race he had someone else take it down for him since as we all know, there is no place to hide ANYTHING in a speed suit.

[patmoore]

When you're elderly, step-ins are a blessing!

I have an older board with SnoPro bail bindings and it's a real pain to bend over and get everything lined up properly. As a result, I rarely use it.

With my Burton Physics it's simple just to stomp in. Releasing can sometimes take a great deal of effort in tugging on the cables but I discovered that they work easily if I just shift my weight to the outside of the boot - right boot to the right and left boot to the left.

[skywalker]

Hi Ray,

AFAIK as I know, my WCR is one of two baords, that were not shipped to Japan :p :p and believe me: It's incredibly good! The boots work fine with my moderate binding angles (55/60 R/F), I love the super secure feeling in these boots. The spring stiffnes is o.k. for me as long as I keep pushing powerfully, but little to hard when I want to do some freeride style. What I believe, I can feel is: I'm in boots designet for Racing on a board designed for GS but not in the 17cm range. It works :)

One additional point to my flex-posting: IMHO you need some for proper weight shift along the board axis (longitudinal). This is, what I wanted to point out. Furthermor a wider stance is possible, if you have some lateral flex between board and boots, which improves control in laid down turns. Again only my 2 ct

Regards

Tom

[Ray]

Originally posted by skywalker
Hi Ray,

AFAIK as I know, my WCR is one of two baords, that were not shipped to Japan :p :p and believe me: It's incredibly good! The boots work fine with my moderate binding angles (55/60 R/F), I love the super secure feeling in these boots. The spring stiffnes is o.k. for me as long as I keep pushing powerfully, but little to hard when I want to do some freeride style. What I believe, I can feel is: I'm in boots designet for Racing on a board designed for GS but not in the 17cm range. It works :)

One additional point to my flex-posting: IMHO you need some for proper weight shift along the board axis (longitudinal). This is, what I wanted to point out. Furthermor a wider stance is possible, if you have some lateral flex between board and boots, which improves control in laid down turns. Again only my 2 ct

Regards

Tom

Vielen Dank Tom!
Good info. I will give it a try and ride my .900 with the Terminator this weekend.
Ray

[AlpentalRider]

I have only tried standard bindings, but am also concerned about how stepins will stiffen my system. I love the flex of my Burton Race Bindings with my Sazukas. Once I move up to TD2's I'm going to loose quite a bit of flex. I can't imagine losing more by going with a stepin version.

Plus both systems work well in terms of binding interface. I have never prereleased in standards as long as the fit was set right.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You could go with a less stiff step-in, one of the F2 models perhaps.

[bumpyride]

Been riding for several years with regular plates on the front foot and step-ins for the rear. I save about 5 oz. on the front foot which, for me, makes a huge difference about mid day after blasting through the bumps.

Call me a whimp, but it does make a difference. Been using Burton Plates on the front and Burton Carrier step-ins on the rear. They give me just the right amount of flex to lessen the impact on bumps or ruts, kind of like suspension, and yet still spring back enough. The Carrier step-ins are a simple mechanical device without springs and levers, and have never jammed on me. Contrary to a lot of guys here, never broken a pair in 7 years. Cautionary note: I'm in at a buck 50, riding both in Seattle and Norther Minn.

I'm regular (makes mornings a relief), but if anyone out there is goofy, I have about 4 0r 5 pair of mismatched bindings. Right foot bailed plates and left foot step-ins most of them new.

[Hagen]

I started on Burton step in bindings and started to hate them after 2 years or so. ...had too much trouble at times to get out of them. And since you need to yank 'em hard every so often the cable on the back heel doesn't last that long.

Another problem that I had with my burton boots and step in heels was that the plastic sole on the tip and heel comes of pretty fast...

...so I went to regular bindings - burton race plates and snow pro. But now my friends with their fancy TD step in bindings always had to wait for me - or I had to straight line it to catch up.

Therefore I finally broke down and ordered TD2s last week. ...it also helped to get x-mas money early this year. :D I only hope that those intec heels last longer than the burton heels...

[bumpyride]

Me too. I had problems with the Burton Race Plate Step-ins with that damn little lever and the spring. Couldn't always get in them or out of them. That's why I went to the Carrier. That has just a large bail on the back with an exaggerated lever that catches the rear heal and pops down and locks the boot at the same time. Somebody with some common sense developed that one. No moving parts except the one piece that the rear bail runs through. It works very well, and you can pop it on while on the lift.

[NateW]

Step ins. I went through a lot of experimentation and was never able to get the toe lever setup to hold me in securely enough. I think the problem had to do with the fit of the heel bail around the heel ledge on the boot. But I've had no trouble with stepins.

And when stepins fail (cable breakage), they fail with my foot attached to the board, which is much preferable to failing "open" with one leg attached and the other flailing.

I even busted an intec pin once and the other pin held my foot in. I didn't notice til the end of the run.

I like not worrying about stuff breaking. My bones and joints in particular. :)

[gdboytyler]

I really liked the Burton Step-In Race Plates (lever on heel), until I broke the heel bail and couldn't get spare parts.

I then switched to standard TD2's. I tried the Intec heels on the TD2, but found it too difficult to get into the binding from a sitting position. I know 95% (plus) of the time I can get into the bindings from a standing position, but I prefer to have all bases covered. So I stuck with the standard TD2's.

With the Burton Step-In, it was easy to buckle in from a sitting position.

[Jon Dahl]

rode Snowpro at first and was happy, liked the convenience of not bending over! When I got my TD2's (stepin) at the end of last seasom I was suprised at how much more responsive they were over the standard TD2's! Have never broken anything on either style binding.

[Bordy]

I have been training at copper for the last few days. I am very surprised by the increased number of athletes using Bomber gear, Most of the riders are running traditional clips because of the increased lateral flex there are a few riders running step ins, My self included. I love free riding in the step ins, but have been getting my as# handed to me in the ruts due to the lack of lateral flex and the inability of the step in to absorb some energy.

This thread tells a very nice story about the need for step ins from a convince aspect, but perhaps many riders could benefit from the option of a demo on each system.

If you are torn between which system to purchase you should be aware of the performance, aspects of each binding? And decide what aspects of the binding works best for you personally.

[Hagen]

I just ordered the TD2 step ins. And I was wondering if the e-rings help a little bit with the lateral flex issue...

...e.g. how much more flex do you get with a regular pair of TD2s and the hard e-rings compared to the stepins with the soft e-rings?

[Randy S.]

BillyBordy / Bob:

Would I really notice the difference in flex between step-in and traditional bails? Mostly the snow in Tahoe is soft enough that I don't need the added flex, but I can see times when it would help. They never inject our courses and it is so rarely cold that we don't get ice (people here call it ice, but its really just hardpack at worst).

Maybe I should find another TahoeCarver with traditional bail TD2s so I can try them out.

What parts would I need to order to enable me to turn one of my pairs of TD2s into traditional clip bails.

[Bordy]

The clip set up for sure has more lateral flex, Your personal preference in soft snow will be just that. The start of your turn should be easier to initiate and it may be very noticeable at the finish of the turn. Also I know Bob said there may not be a noticeable difference in the e-rings but I just picked up a yellow set from Fin while I was at the bomber shop and rode them back to back with the purple rings and noticed a difference in flex and dampening. Expressly in a bumpy race course! But on groomers as well. I hope you get a chance to try out some clips. And I would for sure try the Yellow rings if you have not yet.

[philfell]

If the only thing the softer e-rings do is dampen the binding more. Why would you even offer a firmer e-ring? Why would you want your binding vibrating more?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Bordy
The clip set up for sure has more lateral flex, Your personal preference in soft snow will be just that. The start of your turn should be easier to initiate and it may be very noticeable at the finish of the turn. Also I know Bob said there may not be a noticeable difference in the e-rings but I just picked up a yellow set from Fin while I was at the bomber shop and rode them back to back with the purple rings and noticed a difference in flex and dampening. Expressly in a bumpy race course! But on groomers as well. I hope you get a chance to try out some clips. And I would for sure try the Yellow rings if you have not yet.

Great... now all of your have me confused about what to get. I WAS going to go with the TD2 Step-ins because I had noticeable trouble twisting my body and lining up my heel with the heelbail -I would keep pushing it down because I was offline or something and then have to manually hold the TD1 heel bail to line up the boot. I figured the toe-in entry would be just like Clickers and I could do that easily... now you have me debating whether I should go with the regular bails again instead... hey... Randy, would you consider splitting a pair of TD2s so we both could have step-ins in the back foot and bails in the front foot?

As for riding... I only plan on riding my Madd on big wide groomed trails, maybe on some hardpark days in January (that's about as "icy" as it gets over hear on the West Coast in Tahoe) - that is to say am going to be a very casual freecarver and will only be taking my board out on extremely well-groomed conditions. Did you think I will be able to tell the difference in the flex? I'm coming from strap bindings (go Catek Freerides) so I thinking the flexiest Bomber binding I can get will still be plenty stiff for my small 5'8" 150 lbs needs - the step-ins are also for convenience for me.

[D-Sub]

hey if youre that light, why not give some other bindings a shot?

just curious.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
hey if youre that light, why not give some other bindings a shot?

just curious.

Well... when I first got my TD1s, the only other bindings I saw were the Burton ones, and those just looked a little sketchy to even to me (at the time, when I didn't know anything about alpine bindings). Plus I could only find them used on Ebay... meaning I could get screwed over easily if I was missing a part or they broke on me. So I figured I would play it safe and get the TD1s (they were on sale for $200 on Bomber! :D 3 months before the TD2s came out :( ). So now I'm still in that boat... I would like to play with cant/lift a little... but maybe not the amount that Cateks offer, besides I'm told the TD2 with yellow-ring is much more smoother ride.

Do you have any suggestions for me?

[nekdut]

Arvin (Lonerider = arvin right?),

Go ahead and get the SI's. They are WAY more convenient than clip ins and you've already invested in the heels, so you might as well utilize them. Using the Madd + TD2 SI's in tahoe conditions will be an excellent combo, and I'm certain it wont be too stiff, especially since you wont be charging the gates in that gear. Besides, stiff gear in relatively soft sierra conditions is a good match.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by nekdut
Arvin (Lonerider = arvin right?),

Go ahead and get the SI's. They are WAY more convenient than clip ins and you've already invested in the heels, so you might as well utilize them. Using the Madd + TD2 SI's in tahoe conditions will be an excellent combo, and I'm certain it wont be too stiff, especially since you wont be charging the gates in that gear. Besides, stiff gear in relatively soft sierra conditions is a good match.

Yep that's me!

Yea, I that's what I figured... but I wanted to make sure. It's just that I feel like the TD2 are pretty stiff already for my light frame (as D-Sub mentioned) and don't want to overdo it, because I don't need super-stiff, super-response riding for what I'm doing.

[Jon Dahl]

Stepins are the way to go in my book. There is a noticable difference in the way the bail type and the Intecs flex. But we are forgetting about the boots! Put those babys in walk mode if you feel too locked in. That's what I did the first time out on mine. Of course it was the last day of the season and the snow was a little brutal! You notice the difference in flex laterally more than front to back, so lift/cant tuning may take a little more effort. And I've only got 6 lbs on you and I use the medium ring and will most likely not change.

[Randy S.]

Hey Arvin,

I already have two pair of TD2 step-ins. I don't really want to buy another pair yet (as much as I like supporting Fin's company). I'm going to have to find a TahoeCarver who has clips and try them out. I have an old pair of TD1 clips, but they are so different that the comparison probably wouldn't be fair.

I definitely prefer the yellow (soft) e-rings. I just got a 3rd set so I can use them on all my board mounting kits. Anyone want to buy a purple set with about 10 days on them? I agree with Mr. Fell on this subject.

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by lonerider
Well... when I first got my TD1s, the only other bindings I saw were the Burton ones, and those just looked a little sketchy to even to me (at the time, when I didn't know anything about alpine bindings). Plus I could only find them used on Ebay... meaning I could get screwed over easily if I was missing a part or they broke on me. So I figured I would play it safe and get the TD1s (they were on sale for $200 on Bomber! :D 3 months before the TD2s came out :( ). So now I'm still in that boat... I would like to play with cant/lift a little... but maybe not the amount that Cateks offer, besides I'm told the TD2 with yellow-ring is much more smoother ride.

Do you have any suggestions for me?

I dunno...I dont think you'll be hindering yourself using TDs, so...if you have em, stick with em, but, there are other "softer" cheaper bindings out there, but yeah, theyre all made of plastic which could be sketchy

the snowpro FAST stepins look interesting to me. just out of curiosity I guess