Thoughts on hand positioning

[KingCrimson]

The general consensus on BOL dictates that your outside hand on heelside is to be cranked forward and kept near your front cuff. I rode the entirety of last season like that.

However, I also a-framed my heelsides, and couldn't really bend my knees a whole lot, it just didn't happen. The forced rotation was choking off my hips and making me do outrigger heelsides- butt close to the snow, but miles away from the board.

Goofing around in the frozen chop yesterday, I started "flying" the outside hand. That isn't to say I was breaking angulation, but I was letting it float somewhere between my boots and appreciably higher up than before. Edge holding wasn't changed, but I was considerably more stable when it got rough and firm in the shadows. I attribute this to my knees being further apart and more mobile- because I wasn't choking them off by rotating into the turn too much. My torso also naturally sat much more upright because I wasn't "reaching" anywhere, I was just diving into the turn.

It might be a bad idea to let the hand fly for beginners, by the same accord it's bad to reach for the snow and try to EC, but it certainly made a huge improvement in my riding to find the happy medium.

I've also been riding with a former top-level racer, so my technique is significantly more race-oriented than East coast style.

This was all goofing around my 160 Burton Speed..which is actually a lot of fun because I weigh much less than when I started.

Racers aside, has anyone else been happier forgetting about the cuff-reach?

[Justin A.]

When I'm trying to improve my riding, I put my hands on my head to take any momentum that the changing motions of my hands may impart on my riding out of the equation. I find that I ride a TON better after a couple runs like that. Putting them behind your back works well too.

I don't actively use my hands to enhance angulation at all.

[BlueB]

I never bothered puting my hands on the boot cuffs, not even while learning. "Wild" hands are visible in my videos. It's a small and higly/guickly movable mass, so why not use it for quick adjustments? Shouldn't become a crutch, though, so no-hands excercises should be done often.

As for over-rotation, I agree with you and noticed it in my riding. Too much and it gets harder to flex the knees.

[KingCrimson]

When I'm trying to improve my riding, I put my hands on my head to take any momentum that the changing motions of my hands may impart on my riding out of the equation. I find that I ride a TON better after a couple runs like that. Putting them behind your back works well too.

I don't actively use my hands to enhance angulation at all.

I don't swing my hands around enough for it to make a difference, unless I'm making an ass of myself and not focused. I'm not talking about doing any swinging motions of the hands anyway. I think it looks awkward and stupid, and the Kagayaking videos are a great example.

Body positioning, for myself at least, is more cause and effect than just "doing" it.

When I thought I was angulating on toeside, because I was tightening the correct muscle in my abdomen, I was still "reaching" for the snow (I wasn't actively reaching, but I was inclinated enough that it appeared that way) until I tried to grab my heelside edge.


I never bothered puting my hands on the boot cuffs, not even while learning. "Wild" hands are visible in my videos. It's a small and higly/guickly movable mass, so why not use it for quick adjustments? Shouldn't become a crutch, though, so no-hands excercises should be done often.

As for over-rotation, I agree with you and noticed it in my riding. Too much and it gets harder to flex the knees.

I never really had the wild hands problem. OVR was always super adamant about keeping the hands quiet. My ripped up gloves fall off my hands if I flop around much at all, so I'm pretty confident that my hand is quiet, albeit not anywhere near my boot cuff as Jack often recommends. I don't use my hands for mass adjustments, I like to save the wear and tear for getting in fights in the lift line.

[trailertrash]

Putting your hand next to your cuff is a drill, not a riding position. At least that's what I have heard.

[b0ardski]

Putting your hand next to your cuff is a drill, not a riding position. At least that's what I have heard.
+1
It should be a way to adjust body position during part of the turn not a static posture. Good for correcting the "trailing hand syndrome" and getting the shoulders facing forward.

[KingCrimson]

Putting your hand next to your cuff is a drill, not a riding position. At least that's what I have heard.

I remember some post of Jack's in which he points out how easily he could touch his boot cuff in his riding position.

Certainly makes more sense as a drill.. :o

[queequeg]

Putting your hand next to your cuff is a drill, not a riding position. At least that's what I have heard.

That makes sense to me. I kind of think of it as duct-tape for technique. My first weekend on snow this year I was a friggin mess ... couldn't find my ass with both hands. I eventually remembered to try grabbing my boots while turning to get forward and angulated, and this fixed me up just fine. By the third day riding I was done grabbing the boots, as the drill had done it's job and my body was setting up in proper position naturally.

[!MaineCarver!]

Sometimes what I like to do when I am riding and I feel like I am going to slip or chatter out on a heelside turn I grab my board with my back hand in an indie grab fashion thus bringing my legs closer and my body more stacked in between my feet. This works for especially when I am trying to rail the turns on that New England hard-packed (aka ice).

[Jack Michaud]

The general consensus on BOL dictates that your outside hand on heelside is to be cranked forward and kept near your front cuff. I rode the entirety of last season like that.

Not really. It actually doesn't matter. All that matters is whatever helps you achieve your best balance and stability. It so happens that beginner carvers typically let their rear hand trail over the back of their board, and this is a telltale of an imbalanced position. They will probably have better balance with their rear hand somewhere that they can see it.


However, I also a-framed my heelsides

What? Isn't "a-framing" a skiing term? Never heard of it in snowboarding.


butt close to the snow, but miles away from the board.

I don't see a problem with that.

http://docs.google.com/File?id=dw28fd4_11cpwvvh

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/gfx/anderson-jaseyjay_392.jpg

[KingCrimson]

Not really. It actually doesn't matter. All that matters is whatever helps you achieve your best balance and stability. It so happens that beginner carvers typically let their rear hand trail over the back of their board, and this is a telltale of an imbalanced position. They will probably have better balance with their rear hand somewhere that they can see it.

My impression, based on your instructional writeups, has always been that you emphasize the front boot cuff.

I'm not talking about "petting the dog" or any of that weirdness, but look at your picture compared to JJ. Your hand is only slightly more forward than his, but his knees have all the room in the world.




What? Isn't "a-framing" a skiing term? Never heard of it in snowboarding.

What do you want me to call it?




I don't see a problem with that.



How much knee bend range do you have in a heelside like that without reducing rotation? Personally, I can't compensate for grooming flaws, chunks, minimoguls etc riding rotated like that.

[Jack Michaud]

My impression, based on your instructional writeups, has always been that you emphasize the front boot cuff.


A lot of my articles are really more for beginner carvers, and getting them out of the habit of facing the toeside edge, and/or downhill.


I'm not talking about "petting the dog" or any of that weirdness, but look at your picture compared to JJ. Your hand is only slightly more forward than his, but his knees have all the room in the world.

His picture is taken a little later than mine, my knees are not stuck together. But I agree he is more cowboy than me.


What do you want me to call it?

I'm not even sure what "it" is. I can't imagine what a-framing means on a snowboard.


How much knee bend range do you have in a heelside like that without reducing rotation? Personally, I can't compensate for grooming flaws, chunks, minimoguls etc riding rotated like that.

I have plenty of r.o.m., but that's me. You should ride however rotated or not as you like, in order to achieve your best balance.

[KingCrimson]

A lot of my articles are really more for beginner carvers, and getting them out of the habit of facing the toeside edge, and/or downhill.


I, again, forgot to make the distinction between drills and riding habits. :o





I'm not even sure what "it" is. I can't imagine what a-framing means on a snowboard.



It's fundamentally the same thing, your knees are fighting. Oldschool skiers just getting into newschool carving often end up getting plenty of edge angle on the outside ski, but are lacking on the inside one. On a snowboard, it's only your back knee trying to get the board on edge, and your front one is fighting it. It probably twists the board, but mostly it limits your r.o.m. and it looks awkward and silly.



I have plenty of r.o.m., but that's me. You should ride however rotated or not as you like, in order to achieve your best balance.

Stop being so disagreeable. ;)

[lafcadio]

After seeing myself on video with arms flying all over the place, butt sticking out on heelside and bending forward at the waist on toeside, I started playing around with placing my hand on my boot cuff, as described in one of the tech articles.

Turns out, I really like this position. It totally calmed me down and I feel way more balanced. My carves are much smoother and consistent.

Is there any downside to just riding like this all the time?

[Rob Stevens]

Don't **** on the kagayaking videos.
There are a few different styles of movement in them, if you have the eye to spot them.
What you should take away from them is that the riders are always moving, not staying static, like remaining in a drill position, reaching for your boot cuffs the whole way around the arc.
There is a video of Sigi in the Videos section, showing fluid movement. He floats his rear hand out in front of his torso during the turn, just kind of hanging out there and only moves it forward when he's going to complete / switch.
If you can't see the similarities between what hes doing and some of the Japanese riders (aside from the radius of turn, dictating the speed of the movements), that would be a sign of your riding assesment skills, not their abilities.
Jack: For real? You cant "Even imagine" what "A-framing" is? If you know what it is on skis, you know what it is on a snowboard.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack: For real? You cant "Even imagine" what "A-framing" is? If you know what it is on skis, you know what it is on a snowboard.

My understanding of it on skis was that it was inclinating the skis at different edge angles due to your knees being together. That has no analogy to snowboarding, so.... yeah. Snowboarding with your knees stuck together is not a good thing, but I think calling it A-framing is a misnomer. That's a ski term with a specific meaning about the edge angle of the two skis.

[Rob Stevens]

So you do have an idea.
Misnomer or not, I'm sure you saw his knees together when he said "A-frame".

While the edging reason for a-framing in skiing doesn't compute with snowboarding, the fact that it is a "bail-out" position for folks in either sport, whose quads have given up, does cross over.

[Rob Stevens]

The Sigi vid I wanted to reference is actually under "Racing / Coaching" and is titled "Mid-weighting 4 Speed".