Madd News

[Cheri]

Mike is not returning today. He emailed us and wants to stay on a little longer so that he can bring more boards home with him. It's looking like Wednesday right now.

Cheri

[Shred Gruumer]

Just thought you might like to see this as well people.. :)

Sorry I don't know how to Iron! :confused:

[Shred Gruumer]

:)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Shred Gruumer
Just thought you might like to see this as well people..
Sorry I don't know how to Iron!


Bah! It's not shiny! I want pretty shiny things! :p

You don't need an iron... the people at Evil Sports have found a iron-free solution to removing t-shirt wrinkles (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2557&highlight=evil+sports) .

[ncermak]

thank you lonerider...I forgot about that thread.

[Cheri]

Mike just emailed again and he is working very hard still in Italy. He is continually postponing his trip. But with every postponement, he is telling us that he will be bringing home more boards. He seems totally psyched about how the boards are coming out. Hope you all can be patient for a little longer.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Cheri
Mike just emailed again and he is working very hard still in Italy. He is continually postponing his trip. But with every postponement, he is telling us that he will be bringing home more boards. He seems totally psyched about how the boards are coming out. Hope you all can be patient for a little longer.

I certainly hope that that as more time passes, more snowbards are ready - it would be certainly a bad thing if the number of shippable snowboards at the factory went DOWN as time went on (assuming none are being shipped).

I've already adjusted my riding schedule according as I've gotten 4 days in already sans alpine board/bindings (Donek Incline with Catek Freerides) and I'm not planning on bringing my board up to Sun Peaks for the December carve camp - so if you could get it to us sometime in 2005 that would be nice :) Although *IF* we do get the boards before the end of the year... maybe I could bribe Mike into letting me ride his for a few runs. :D Although that looks doubtful as we have to assume one more week minimum to get it here, and then at least two weeks to get all of them tuned... and then another week to ship them.

In the meantime... do you have anything to keep the masses pacified? A photo of one of the current boards? More swag? Maybe some photos of a "de-wrinkled" Madd T-shirt?

[Shred Gruumer]

Got a couple more to hold ya over... this is some trial run of some stuff that might be available.

Right said Shed

[mellowjonny]

That would look good with John Kerrys flower zipper pull!

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Shred Gruumer
Got a couple more to hold ya over... this is some trial run of some stuff that might be available.

Right said Shed

Personally I think the red kind of clashes with the forest/olive green theme. I think you should stick with the "white" one used in the original logo instead.

While I would love a jacket with the Madd logo on it and I have no question it would draw attention and orders. I have a feeling that's a bit more money than Madd has to "give away" and I dobut that many people would actually spend a large amount of money for such a jacket. What Madd should do is *giveaway* someone cheap... but has high visibility... stickers are the obvious choice (stick'em on your helmet). Or like a race bib... T-shirts are "cool" but who ever wears just a T-shirt while snowboarding... doesn't really help to see a Donek or a Madd T-shirt when you are going to the grocery store.

[GeoffV]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney
I plan on going over to PTC when Mike B. brings the boards by to take some pics of them being tuned.

I'll be picking my board directly up at PTC, were Mike will be tuning them, I'll be sure to post pic of my MADD since I will have it before most of you all :D

[skategoat]

How many boards is Mike making and are they all sold?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by skategoat
How many boards is Mike making and are they all sold?

I don't know the number of boards in this run... but they only made one if someone pre-ordered it. Sorry...

[D-Sub]

I thought there were others made...not all preorders.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
I thought there were others made...not all preorders. Really? Hmm... then they are *really* behind in their manufacturing schedule. That makes sense though, as I was wondering how they were going to sell more boards at the *regular* price if they hadn't had them built yet.

[D-Sub]

heck, I have no idea really. just an impression I had.

in any case..its gettin pretty close!

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
heck, I have no idea really. just an impression I had.

in any case..its gettin pretty close!

Yea, I don't know. I certainly hope they are getting close, they said they were almost done in July ;)

Hey skategoat, go to www.maddmikes.com as they have a link to a ebay store from there where you can purchase a board. - it also has email and phone number contact info... good luck!

[Mike T]

Originally posted by lonerider
Yea, I don't know. I certainly hope they are getting close, they said they were almost done in July ;)

I'm just hoping to get mine before Sun Peaks camp!!!!

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Mike T
I'm just hoping to get mine before Sun Peaks camp!!!! So you can lend it to me at Sun Peaks... right? :D

[rick ferguson]

just curious, what was the average price for one of these long awaited boards that so many think are the ****? And how long has the wait been? Not ripping, just asking.:)

[D-Sub]

early order price was $500 flat. current price is $750, which I think is pretty damn steep.

If theyre not ready by mid december I think some people are gonna be quite pissed off

and...the flashing of clothes...I dont see that appeasing anyone:)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
early order price was $500 flat. current price is $750, which I think is pretty damn steep.

If theyre not ready by mid december I think some people are gonna be quite pissed off

and...the flashing of clothes...I dont see that appeasing anyone:)

Yea, I think the $750 reflects the high overhead costs of such small production runs... lets say with some better material management and greater volume they could drop it down to $700 a board... maybe even $675 a board... then it's only $100 more than say a Volkl Renntiger and *if* what people are saying about them is true... I think $100 is worth paying for... I mean Pogo boards are even more expensive...

Of course $500 flat beats everything hand downs :D

[D-Sub]

solid on all counts. I doubt its cheap to have snowboards made, and obviously the MADD folks dont have their own production facility

maybe we should all pitch in:)

[Gecko]

Originally posted by D-Sub
solid on all counts. I doubt its cheap to have snowboards made, and obviously the MADD folks dont have their own production facility

maybe we should all pitch in:)

It's not that hard I've built a press before out of rail road rails and firehose that only required an inexpensive (relatively) air compressor to squash things. Of course the cassettes and material prep is what takes madd (punn intended) space and cash

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Gecko
It's not that hard I've built a press before out of rail road rails and firehose that only required an inexpensive (relatively) air compressor to squash things. Of course the cassettes and material prep is what takes madd (punn intended) space and cash

Yea... and something tells me that the boards that came out of this press weren't raved about by people across the country either :p

[rick ferguson]

I've done research into board building, as a surfboard builder I understand cost and time and market value, also if it is a side deal or your sole job- that changes everything. Chech out www.snowboardmaterials.com Complete turn key jobs at 18k or a more manual set-up for around 6k. I asked them how much in material cost is a 178 alpine board with a standard lay -up , NON_ volume , meaning NOT buying a 55 gallon drum of resin, just one off pricing in materials to be at a remarkable $160.00 or less! Core's can be custom ordered and cnc cut to spec's for around $25-30. Don't be suprised if in the next couple of years I branch into the biz. As a surfboard shaper , shaping the blanks custom and by hand, no computer shaping , I don't even run close to the profit margins of these guy's. Maybe surfer's are just a bunch of cheap f--k's and low ball real well! I like the margins in doing snowboards far better than surfboards, so I'm saving my pennies from my surf sales to start up snow gear!

[John Gilmour]

Look at the board manufacturers of alpine. Are any of them living lifestyles of the rich and famous?

I've definitely lost more time + money in Alpine than made $ - if I had to do it again...I definitely wouldn't unless I was financed to the hilt- I couldn't afford to looking back at the opportunity lost. Now could you imagine if I invested that much time and effort and in the end the product didn't work well? That's why I have had zero involvement with this production run of Madd Snowboards (other than forwarding a few previous orders from a few years back), it doesn't pay the bills.

To top it all off you have to know what feels right- you have to have flexed over a thousand boards and ridden hundreds at a high level- it takes years just for that part.

There is a lot more to a snowboard than just any resin, any glass, any core, and any sidecut + camber...

It's about synergy...synergy of materials, synergy of design, synergy with the flex, snow, weight of rider, foot size, boot and binding dynamics, rider ability.


Unfortunately.... it is also about -price of labor, currency conversions, material costs, warranty replacements, theft, lawsuits, Materials becoming suddenly unavailable/discontinued, political strife severing a supply line of soft goods, fighting the elements during a demo while sick, broken down cars in snowstorms, not being able to find an affordable hotel room before a race, factory floods, factory fires, loss of key employees,,,, etc,,,etc,,,etc... you can't even begin to think of how many boards hit the trash heap in protos before you can even sell just ONE decently performing deck.

The acceptable margins for error in surfing and skateboard design are much larger. The water and pavement. are slightly variable but not so widely variable as snow.

Not that you shouldn't do it...but if your motive is profit- you'd be better off with a solid 401K.
________
Wholesale vaporizer (http://vaporizerwholesaler.com)

[Donek]

Rick,

I'll make one suggestions before you embark on this endeavor. Take a look at how many companies started making boards last year and have already failed. Then look at companies who started in the last 5 and have failed.

Just as an example. There was a company here in Denver that decided to purchase all of B-Lines equipment when they went under. They paid over $100,000 for it. One year later they sold it all for less than $10,000. They couldn't make it happen. Mostly because they believed that if they turned on the machinery, the job would get done. You may not have the same problem, but there will be plenty of them.

The success rate of snowboard companies is so abysmally low, it's staggering. You should make sure you know exactly what it is you're getting into before you begin. You'll want to build boards for yourself and a couple of friends for at least 3 years before you even consider trying to sell one.

I talk with all the companies here in Colorado (US, Never Summer, Unity, Venture). Every single one of us agree on one point. We may have thought we'd get rich at one point, but the only reason we're still in business is because it's a passion. None of us are driving fancy cars. Some of us are even supported by our wives.

[boogieman]

everything always seems easy until you have to do it yourself!

And i doubt getting in to the market will be easy if you for example want to sell your boards for lets say 700 dollar everybody will buy a well known board with a good name for that price if you sell them for 300 dollars everybody will buy a board somewhere else becouse obviously your selling cheap crap
and thats just one small problem im mentionning i think
but i dont know anything about making snowboards but i got my own business myselfs and i know one thing whatever you do it wont be as easy as it looks
And for the 160 dollar is it fully made by and assembled or do you have a little well educated monke that works for free who will do that for you?


i think making bindings is 100 times easyer then making boards but i doubt you can become rich with it

just my 2 cp

[rick ferguson]

As a owner of my own company and the shaper of the boards, (no hired help here) I think I have a vast knowledge of what goes into a industry. I would like to point out that I was not saying I'd be a rich man either. I don't make crap for doing surfboards in comparison to the amount of hours I put into it. Pat, I deal with the same crap as well, try to tell a complete kook that he needs a board of a certain size and thickness , with a certain template and rocker AND he comes in with a picture outa surfer magazine and say's "make me one just like this" Then when the board barely floats his sorry ass, he bad mouths your stuff and say's it "SUCKS!" My market that I rally against is huge! Rusty, Al Merrick , all the legends and local shaper's who have 30 plus years on top of my 13 shaping. My point was the cost to profit margin for materials alone vs. the retail margin is much more profitable in snowboards. I never said I was going into it to become the next BURTON , but as many may crumble, I think that there is a possibility in the alpine arena. If I shape 300 surfboards in a year and and am "LUCKY ENOUGH"to get full mark up , I'll be lucky to pull in 35k.I'd be better off just getting a job, according to your tone. Average profit on a board is about $75-100 per board. Also I never said it would be great overnight. Try hand shaping foam,once you take it off, you can't put in back on! Screw up on a 9' t-band 3-stringer andit will set ya back a chunk of change ($175.00) I got the same attitude from all the local shaper's when I said I was going to make surfboards, "it sucks", "no money" , "too much to compete with", and the best one-"YOU WON"T MAKE IT" Funny the guy that said that one has contracted me out over the last 6 years to do his hybrids, eggs and longboards, cause he say's I do a better job than him. I alway's say, "stick with what ya ride". I ride longboards, thus I make a mean one! Leave the shortboards to those that it's their cup of tea. The idea that it's complicated is over rated. I could tech talk you about, as you say "synergy" rocker, template , flex of the foam density, flex of the wood/s types of wood and the flex property. various glassing options, types of weave , carbon , kevlar, types of resins, strength to weight ratio's- All this for a board that will never see the same wave twice, so please DON"T think that I don't know what goes into selling the customer "THE PRODUCT" It's amazing how miss-informed people get about these things. I ghost shaped boards for 5 other labels in town, Amazing what JUST a logo does. I was surfing with this guy and started talk boards in the water, I did'nt tell him who I was or that I shaped boards, I asked him if he has tried the label I was riding and he said, "NA, I HEARD THEY SUCK FROM A FRIEND" well , the board between his legs was one "I" shaped for the larger label in town and he said his "RIPPED" Funny how that works, 2 years later's he's now on "my" label :) If it was that bad you guy's would close up shop as well. Maybe it's the desire for doing what WE enjoy! You have got to admit, having all those companies closing up shop , brings you more work , now does'nt it! I'm saving for the press as I speak and who knows..................

[D-Sub]

****in go for it, rick. If you have some semi-disposable income!

nothin ever worked out that wasnt tried first:)

hell...hit me up when youre workin on em if you want someone to try one out:)

[lonerider]

Hey Rick I know basically nothing about surfboards... so your surfboards are hand shaped by taking a block of foam and very carefully sanding it down? That sounds like a very nice (but time consuming) setup. Do most companies just inject the foam or something? You mentioned stringers, do the longboard flex that much (i.e. does it help the turn like a snowboard with a bit of a "snap" at the end)

No need to go in the super gory details if you don't feel like it. I just wondered how much cross-over in the design techniques there is (one would assume there is a decent amount).

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though...

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though...


Maybe I'll move it up a few slots... dang... sounds like a lot of hardwork... I made myself a balance board (http://home.comcast.net/~atchang/photos/board5480.jpg) (never took woodshop at school) and then made 4 more for my friends as gifts and that already tired me out (would have been nice if I had a power sander). That is about the limit of my woodcrafting ability!

Wooo... love those fumes from the varnish! Even outside, in a cool breeze my work area was a little sniff-y ;)

[Gecko]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
If you rent the "Step Into Liquid" dvd there's a short segment that shows some of what goes into making surfboards. Those guys did the main cutting using templates, then refined the edges by hand (well with help from power tools), laid up the glass and finished all by hand. Not sure if the hyooge outfits like Rusty do it that way though...

I've been to Rustys factory/glass shop...Rusty walks in about once a month and signs boards...he only actually shapes N.S. Guns, the rest of the boards are shaped by Ghosts...finding out who those guys are is how you get a good board without paying "Rusty" prices. In truth surfboard and snowboard manufacturing is very similar I've done both. If I had the money I'd go back to building Snowboards just because I enjoyed doing it so much.

[Neil Gendzwill]

One thing I just don't understand about the surfboard industry - if you find a good shape for a particular application, why can't you automate it so you can crank out a bunch of identical boards? Is the shaping too complicated for machinery?

[Gecko]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
One thing I just don't understand about the surfboard industry - if you find a good shape for a particular application, why can't you automate it so you can crank out a bunch of identical boards? Is the shaping too complicated for machinery?

actually this is done with the injection molded boards which are rather nice if lifeless feeling...

[dr. sandman]

Wow!! Just goes to show there's nothing like a dinghy of ingenuity and a freightliner of desire! Just want to say hats off to Fergie, MADD, Donek, BOL and any others out there bustin' there knuckles to promote and proliferate the tools that let us do what we love to do!!

[rick ferguson]

You don't make much money , but you make great friends, get to work barefoot and in shorts, make your own hours and best of all , it allows you to play "the starving artist" role when picking up on chick's! Although it's short lived , when they get tired of paying for dinner all the time , but it's fun while it last's. Hope everyone has a bounty of day's on the mountain and a injury free winter, got's to go shape a spicy performance longboard-see ya,rick:D

[Gecko]

Rick one thing that that you have correct is that you should stick to what you know. Your nich in surfing is longboards:D My fav BTW:D, I've surfed east coast, west coast, Austrailia, Japan and Hawaii and while some boards can be used in other places, for instance west coast and Aussie boards/waves are similar same with East coast and japanese boards/wave Hawaii boards are totally different than both and ride like **** in someplace like New England. If you want to start shaping snowboards, design boards that you can ride and that people you know can ride...design a better board for the place you normally ride. Maybe a carving board better able to deal with Sierra cement something halfway between an all mountain and a freecarving board for instance.

[d b]

Hey Rick who do you shape for?? Like shaping longboards ah?
Trivia question: Recognize the guy in the picture?
With my new board! Sweeeet!!!

[rick ferguson]

Pictures a bit dark on his face, but I'm still looking to take a jab at guessing with a bit more info. West coast? nor-cal or so-cal? As far as the board is concerned it looks great! Is that a 1" balsa center flanked by redwood? I'm not huge on retro boards if that's what it is. I do make them, and ride they from time to time , but prefer to stay in the proggressive longboard movement. I guess it's like taking out an old burton "safari" and cruising it for fun on occasion, but it's not a everyday rider, atleast for my style of riding and surf locations. Still , they are fun and are great show pieces. Did you go with a glass-on fin or a box?:)

[boogieman]

you can do anything with machinery but its probably to complicated so that the machinery would cost way to much

[rick ferguson]

Sure you could shape boards with a computer machine. Over 75% of all major labels are done that way now. It's great if you want to make 100 of the same board, but my order's come in so many size range's and custom to the customer that it 's not really going to work out for me yet. Even those I've shaped for other label's that were computer shaped, still need to be finished off by hand and still come out flawed by the machinery. Shaping from the raw blanks is starting to become a lost art. Most new , upcoming shaper's are learning to do them from the computer base. I was lucky to have started when I did and work with as many as I have. Most of those I had worked for are now over 75% computer only shapes. There are two guy's that are very well known in calif, hawaii and japan, one of which told me that he only hand shaped 4 boards total last year! There are companies in china who are training old women , some whom never even seen the ocean before,to finish of computer boards. Kinda takes the "SOUL" outa it! Sure it's a cheap priced board, made by a 50 year old non-surfer! Anyone that want's to continue with this, we should open up a new thread and leave this one for those waiting for their MADDS and reviews of them, sorry guy's for getting so far off your topic's

[Jim]

Hi Rick,

Looks as if you will be hand shaping a custom board for me in April for sure. Broke my last Heitmann yesterday at La Selva Beach. :( One down one to go for the season unless I take one of my short boards out when it gets overhead. This $1000 a year longboard habit is getting old.

[d b]

That’s Hap Jacobs he doesn’t shape that much anymore but I talked him into it! I wanted a classic nose rider! I would have gone glassed-in but went with a box for conveyance and also I like to change up the fin from time to time? It’s a beast 10’-6”.. their going love me in the line up! Ha ha anyways I surf everything from short boards, to HP long boards. Hey what’s your take on the epoxy boards? I demoed one up north and did dent really like it!

later

[John Gilmour]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donek
snipped........



I talk with all the companies here in Colorado (US, Never Summer, Unity, Venture). Every single one of us agree on one point. We may have thought we'd get rich at one point, but the only reason we're still in business is because it's a passion. None of us are driving fancy cars. Some of us are even supported by our wives. [/QUOTE


I'll admit to being one of those people supported by women. Over the years I could not have possibly put as much time into Madd if it wasn't for a slew of tolerant (and some slightly intolerant) girlfriends. No lie. Many of you carvers owe the women out there more than you think- so be nice to those women of the industry leaders (on the phone- at demos, expression sessions etc..)...without them alpine might not exist at all.
________
JAGUAR XK150 PICTURE (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Jaguar_XK150)

[John Gilmour]

And Rick I don't want to discourage you from entering....(just giving you a "heads up" of what you are getting into)..in fact I would welcome it as the more start ups we have the better for Everyone in the industry. Strangley if we had 50 small, yet dedicated alpine vendors out there doing demos on each continent we would be in a lot healthier state. Strangely though...the Alpine industry always seems to suffer when the big companies come in (dumping product, pushing out smaller vendors with finance deals to the shops, and most making inferior products that turn off people to alpine). IF 50 small Alpine companies existed on each snowboard continent...........

1. There would be more hardbooters on the slopes
2. People would be able to find out info on alpine easier
3. There would be more sponsored contests and "expression sessions"
4. There wouldn't be such a drought in boots.
5. We might collectively have enough advertising clout that some snowboard mags would consider doing some editorial copy on hard booting.
6.The niche filling the need for large "sweet spot", easier to ride, intermediate level alpine boards would be filled.


but as they say.....misery loves company- welcome to the fold brutha! If you want any input from me- let me know- be glad to help.
________
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