Boot pain, some questions

[NickG]

Raichle SB 314's, luxury intuition liners, custom orthotics.

Boot pain is better...but still persists. They are tight, and I feel like this is restricting blood flow to some degree (and making my toes really cold), even though I'm not buckling them hard at all.

A few questions, the first is really the most important:

1) I can almost eliminate my pain if I open the buckle closest to the toe. Is this safe to ride like this? If anyone has any suggestions for getting the straps to buckle that would be great - I have them maxed out in terms of length. When the ratchet gives me the first "click," that is already too tight. Hell, I could even just take them off. Is that ok?

2) I like my boots to be pretty flexy, but after reading the recent thread on riding in walk mode I'm not so sure I should continue to do that. Do 314's take BDS?

3) Finally, I am a size 27, but pushing a 27.5. Should I look at getting a 27.5 liner? the liner in there now is a 27. Maybe that would help?


My brain cannot even comprehend the statement "You should be able to forget your hardboots are on." I would spend the money on new boots and new liners if I absolutely knew that I could ride all day without any pain...but I hesitate to do that because I don't even know if that's possible.

[crucible]

The Raichle 314 will not take a Bomber BTS spring, the shell and cuff are not designed to take the mounting pins.

You may get toe relief if you have your boot toe box punched out, or you can also have the front buckle pin moved closer so that you can engage the latch.

Geo

[dingbat]

The only reason I haven't taken the toe buckles off my HSPs is that I'm too lazy to fill the holes it would leave.;) I run them so loose that occasionally they come undone and I find them flapping around at the end of the run.

[fin]

NickG,

First a correction, the BTS will indeed fit on your SB413 boots. The BTS works on all Raichle/Deeluxe boots since they have been made. Only model is the SB121 but that is from close to 20 year ago now.

Will they help your situation: maybe. They do make a boot feel softer and we have seen it be a big help in shin-bag situations. But what you describe seems a bit more than this.

To me you can break it down into two components:
- does the boot fit properly
- are they positioned properly

Positioned means forward lean, stance width, stance angle, etc. if any of these are not correct you "fight" your boots (even if they fit correctly) and gets sore spots, cramps, numbness, etc. Your set-up should feel comfortable and natural on the floor of your living room before you head out on the hill. Does it? What are some of the stance numbers you are set-up right now?

[queequeg]

Nick -

-The problem with your toes: is it in the front foot only? or does it occur for both your front and rear foot?

-Have you done a shell test to check that you are in the correct length shells?

-What kind of footbeds do you have?

[NickG]

Ah so it is 413. Why they thought the mirrored "4" looked cool I dunno....

Throwing the boots on now so I can describe my issues as I write :cool:

-Ok so the boots have been on for about 10 minutes now. The problem is felt the most in my toes because they get cold first. But really...after having the boots on, I'm feeling the pain, almost like a pulled muscle, on the top of my foot. I feel like that is cutting of blood flow, it feels too tight. Instant relief when I loosen the second buckle (the one that goes in / that direction).

- kept the left foot tight and the right foot really loose, but still buckled in a way that I would feel comfortable riding in it--> Right feels better than the left now, but I'm still getting that awkward cramp on the top of my foot.

-not sure what the shell test is. Is that the two-finger thing behind the heel? Let me pull the liners out ..... :boxing_sm ....I can get 2-3 fingers behind my heel, depending on where my toes are (squished = 3, touching = 2)

-footbeds...hmm i dont remember the brand, but oftentimes I think the price is what tells people the most: they were $50 "heat moldable" liners the ski boot guy recommended. He said we could do a full custom for $100 but my feet aren't too picky, I just need a bit of arch support.

- stance: I am running 56 front/54 back. 3* cant up on front toe and 3* cant on back heel. They are TD2's, the cant is aligned at the 55* mark on both front and back. Stance width is...about 21 inches, I'm never sure how to measure this correctly when I have bindings on. Note: I am constantly changing my angles and my width to experiment. I have had the experience of fighting my stance when I got horrible cramps in my legs and calves because my stance was too narrow.


Blah, feet still feel awkward as I write this. I know it's so hard to describe this with text and even harder to give suggestions based on rough descriptions - thank you guys for helping

[John H]

Have you tried remolding the liner wearing thicker socks and a thicker toe cap?
Once it's cooled down put on thin socks and see if that helps enough before getting the shells punched out.

[snowboardfast]

Did you have your liners molded at a ski shop or did you do it yourself? If done at a shop you should go back and request to have the problems fixed if they can be. The intution liner is a good one. Also did they hurt while you had them on at the shop? If so you should have addresed that when you were there how ever if it is a reputable shop they should help you with this. I just had a pair of liners done last week and rode them yesterday for the first time. They felt good in the shop and felt good on the hill all day for the first day. Moldable liners are suposed to be comfortable and hopefully your problems can be fixed. If your boots are too small it will be harder to make them fit right.

[queequeg]

-Ok so the boots have been on for about 10 minutes now. The problem is felt the most in my toes because they get cold first. But really...after having the boots on, I'm feeling the pain, almost like a pulled muscle, on the top of my foot. I feel like that is cutting of blood flow, it feels too tight. Instant relief when I loosen the second buckle (the one that goes in / that direction). .... kept the left foot tight and the right foot really loose, but still buckled in a way that I would feel comfortable riding in it--> Right feels better than the left now, but I'm still getting that awkward cramp on the top of my foot.

You should not have to buckle so tight that you lose blood flow. Buckles are there to let you in and out of the boot, they are not there to provide pressure. If when you buckle, you are adding *significant* pressure to the boot fit, you are overtightening. If you have to buckle down hard to prevent your foot from moving around in the boot, either your boots are too big, your liners are packed out or your footbed is not supporting you properly.


-not sure what the shell test is. Is that the two-finger thing behind the heel? Let me pull the liners out ..... :boxing_sm ....I can get 2-3 fingers behind my heel, depending on where my toes are (squished = 3, touching = 2)

So it sounds like your boots are probably the right size (though somewhat on the roomier side), assuming you mean two fingers stacked (fingernail to fingertip), rather than two fingers side by side.


-footbeds...hmm i dont remember the brand, but oftentimes I think the price is what tells people the most: they were $50 "heat moldable" liners the ski boot guy recommended. He said we could do a full custom for $100 but my feet aren't too picky, I just need a bit of arch support.

Given the discomfort you are currently enduring - I would not assume that your feet aren't too picky. A proper footbed not only supports your arch: it also shortens your foot in the boot, prevents it from sliding forward in the boot (something that can cause the kind of pain you are experiencing - as your foot slides forward in the boot it gets sqeezed on the sides of your toes ... this goes from annoying in the morning to agonizing in the afternoon). Having too big of a boot, or bad support (footbed issue) can cause this.


- stance: I am running 56 front/54 back. 3* cant up on front toe and 3* cant on back heel. They are TD2's, the cant is aligned at the 55* mark on both front and back. Stance width is...about 21 inches, I'm never sure how to measure this correctly when I have bindings on. Note: I am constantly changing my angles and my width to experiment. I have had the experience of fighting my stance when I got horrible cramps in my legs and calves because my stance was too narrow.

I'm a fan of wide stances. Have you tried the gas pedal? Six in front Three in Rear?


Blah, feet still feel awkward as I write this. I know it's so hard to describe this with text and even harder to give suggestions based on rough descriptions - thank you guys for helping

It sounds to me like:

- it could be that your shells are either just right or slightly too large?
- if they are too large your foot may be sliding forward.
- If they are not too large, maybe you need to have your boots punched out for width in the toes?
- maybe you need foot support to keep your foot stationary in the boot?

I will (respectfully) disagree with John H's suggestion that you try re-molding your boots with a thicker sock. Toecap yes, thick sock no. Molding with a thick sock will only result in a roomier, sloppier fit that will ultimately result in your foot moving around in the boot - which means you'll be less comfortable and have less control over the board. Mold (and ride) with the thinnest sock possible, and use a toecap while molding. I like to put cotton balls between my toes when molding too.

Getting your boots molded by a pro, who knows what they are doing helps - there's a lot that can be done wrong.

I'd get myself to a well-regarded bootfitter if I were you: only when someone can actually see what's going on with your feet and your boots are you really going to be able to solve the problem.

[Beckmann AG]

Throwing the boots on now so I can describe my issues as I write :cool:

-Ok so the boots have been on for about 10 minutes now. The problem is felt the most in my toes because they get cold first. But really...after having the boots on, I'm feeling the pain, almost like a pulled muscle, on the top of my foot. I feel like that is cutting of blood flow, it feels too tight. Instant relief when I loosen the second buckle (the one that goes in / that direction).
If your feet begin to hurt while sitting at the keyboard, you can probably rule out binding configuration as the origin of the problem.
Circulation issues can derive from several areas. If your toes are tingling while you are sitting down, there is a good possibility that blood flow over the top of your foot is affected.
Relief through reduction of buckle tension indicates that the contour of the top of your foot, (instep area) is not well matched to the instep contour of the boot shell/liner. Sometimes the problem area is directly over the distal end of the first metatarsal bone (that big sucker connected to your first toe), but usually not. And that would be different type of pain.
Assuming you tried your boots on before you purchased them, this would explain in part why you bought a shell one size larger than would be considered ideal.
Pull your aggravated foot out of the boot and look for the big red blotch on the instep. This represents the area where the liner (easier) or shell (harder) needs shaping.

Also, there is a fleshy area ahead of the outside anklebone. If there is a lump in the liner, or excess material in this area, it will generate some of that 'pulled muscle' pain, more so with the boot buckled.


- kept the left foot tight and the right foot really loose, but still buckled in a way that I would feel comfortable riding in it--> Right feels better than the left now, but I'm still getting that awkward cramp on the top of my foot.Your emphasis on the top of the foot sort of rules out foot support, or lack thereof, as a problem. The average foot, when 'properly' supported, gets a little taller, and a little shorter. If you had too much stuff under your arch, that, combined with compression of the instep, would give you a nastier cramping situation, dominated by pain in the arch area.

[NickG]

the shop I had them molded at is as reputable as I can get around Philadelphia - Danzeisen & Quigley. They have some older guys in there who seem pretty knowledgeable. I can go back and have them remolded.

Keep in mind I am new to the whole hardboot thing - last year I just dealt with the pain, this year I am doing something about it. I guess I never knew how to properly buckle the boots, and the guy at the shop should have noticed I was doing it too hard.

The best I can come up with now is that I cranked them down decently hard when I had them molded. I should go back and have them remolded with the buckles at the proper tightness. I think I have a few remolds left on these liners.

Thank you all for your feedback, I hope i can get this resolved because I definitely had "the revelation" the other day. Once I get on the slopes and get some video I will start asking form questions :)

[mykcuz]

I would at the least call the shop and describe what you feel. Even better would be to go there, put your puts on and point to exactly what hurts.

A heel lift would pull your toes away from the tip of the boot, and possibly help the outside of your toe knuckles(?) rest in a wider area of the boot. With the top of the foot pain this may make it worse though. So best thing is for a fitter to see it in person, since you met him and feel they are knowledgeable.

i doubt the boot is too small if you can only get one crank on it. and fitters will usually knock a boot out as a last resort, since theres no coming back from that, and you create the potential for a weak spot.

[CarvingScooby]

Try use cheap insole. I've used custom $495 orthotics and the pain was driving me nuts :angryfire and it was fine on my regular shoes/sneakers.
Now I use the $9 insole no more pain:biggthump. Ahh also use the Thermoliners and the right shape boots/shell. Wide feet - Deeluxe TRACK700T, UPZ, HEAD etc.

RT