How many here were boarders "before"

[D-Sub]

Im just curious who was a boarder before they got goin on an alpine setup. Seems to me that quite a few were actually two plankers first...?

[Randy S.]

Um. What if there was no alpine when we started snowboarding? That wasn't an option (or is that the burrito option?).

Let's see. I started skiing in 1968. I started snowboarding in 1986. I got my first hard boots in 1989. Which answer do I choose?

[D-Sub]

ahahahahhahaha!

well...youd choose BOTH really. and a burrito

part of my reason for the poll is...there's sometimes an air of elitism here sorta...somewhat snobby at times, toward "those guys" (the freeride/freestyle riders) and it reminds me very much of the crap I used to get from skiers when I started in 1990...

[Thrillkil]

Started softbooting in 1994, went alpine about 2002, though i didnt have a real alpine board until last year

[Derf]

Like everyone, started on softboots from 1993 until 1998, when I had my first alpine board, then half-half until 2002 when I had my second alpine board, now full time alpine.

Derf

[Mike T]

Skis starting in '85, softies starting in '95, a couple half-days on plates in '01, mostly plates last season.

Haven't skied since about '97.

[oldvolvosrule]

I started riding skis in the early 70's, competed in GS through the 80s and early 90s. I tried soft boots in 94 for a total of 4 trips up the mtn. I just didn't like the feel of softies, not a direct edge connection like in ski boots. I went to Mammoth in 95 and saw my first carver rippin' turns down Stump Alley. I knew then that is what I wanted to do on a snowboard. I rode alpine only for 8 years.

Last year, my brother talked me into trying the some shaped skis, since then I bought some shaped skis and new boots and now I switch back and forth between the alpine boards and the skis.

[knoch]

ive been skiing since 85, started on softies in about 96 or so i think, then got on an alpine board 2 seasons ago at the very end. Anyways, when i started on softies i wanted to be on an alpine board but could never afford it. Either way it was still a ton of fun, but now that i have an alpine board i almost never use the freestyle board but i switch back and forth on skis still probably an average of 4 times each day i'm on the hill. It's simple, if i find some terrain i think would be fun on skis, i swap out until im bored, then i switch back, or the other way around.

[CarvCanada]

I always carved, from my first season on softboots, after I managed to become intermediate, my angles on my bindings just kept going up and up, until last year, all I did was carve the groomers with a soft boot set up at 50/45, then I took interest in alpine because of a combination of World Cup racing, people I saw on the hill a local shop with beautiful Priors, and of course the internet, so I found Jasey Jay's site, then extremecarving.com, then bomberonline all in a day!

[Baka Dasai]

1966: Born
1976: Started skiing
1994: Started soft-boot snowboarding
1996: Stopped skiing
1999: Started carving in soft boots
2000: Started hard-boot snowboarding

[C5 Golfer]

First soft then went to hard boots. Love burritos with Kirin Ichiban

[lonerider]

Went skiing like three times when I was young... switched to snowboarding in high school ski trip and never looked back. In college, we did a lot of freestyle (except when the New England snow was nice... yea). We always saw a few hardbooters once or twice a season and always wanted to try out the stuff for a weekend... but was never able to find a place to rent it (we didn't search that hard).

While doing a lot of freestyle I started getting into the "carving" mindset from my friend Blake as suggested I try big wide, fast arc'ing turns from trail edge to trail edge as he found it fun to do.

Jump forward a couple of seasons and going from the East to West coast. With the relatively "awesome" snow conditions, I start spending a lot more time outside the park (doing like a 50/50 freeride/freestyle split as opposed to the previous 25/75 split) and I moved up to a longer and stiffer Salomon definition. I'm carving deeper and deeper trenches such that my friends remark they can feel a "bump" when they ride over my tracks (one manages to pearl his board over a particularly deep rut I made). On the mountain (Kirkwood) I meet some hardbooters who suggest I check out hardbooting - and so I search online for information about hardbooting gear (which is much more attainable now that I have a steady job)... and here I am.

I think I will keep an even split between freestyle, freeriding, and freecarving. Just by my nature I tend to burn out quickly if I stick to a single thing all that time (I was getting a little tired of just freeriding all the time before I rediscovered freestyle and found freecarving).

I'm mean right now I'm playing ice hockey, longboard skateboarding, rock climbing, and getting powerlifting lessons. I basically rotate my "emphasis" between my activities to keep myself from getting mental and physically "over-adapted."

[thomas_m]

Newby here.

I started boarding last February 2nd in softboots(didn't know any better). Stumbled on this site and bought an alpine rig in April. Ended up with 30ish days which I'll double this season.

I'd never even touched a ski or snowboard before the day first boarded in Feb. I'm now kicking my own ass over the 9 years we had lived here and never gone to the mountain 40 minutes from our house...

T.

[joecarve]

Softboots for two seasons, then hardboots at low angles for five seasons (simply because softboots sucked), then got a clue (and a lesson) on carving. Starting my fifth season...

joe...

[ARCrider]

started skiing in 65
soft boots 99
alpine 00
haven't skied since 99

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Randy S.
Let's see. I started skiing in 1968. I started snowboarding in 1986. I got my first hard boots in 1989. Which answer do I choose?
Freaky. Same thing for me, except the skiing start was 1971.

[Kirk]

- Started surfing in about '82 (anything from 8'0" - 9'6" - long boards only!)
- Softie set-up in '90 (Burton Flex w/Comp boot - pretty stiff freeride boot for the time!) - a couple of different free-ride decks
- Transitioned that boot/binding interface w/Burton M6 in '91
- Hard boots/plates in '92 (M6 & PJ)

...oh, downhill skiied once during my 1st year in college ('88) - didn't care for it too much. Seemed more natural with both feet on one plank;)

[LeeW]

gonna do some skiing this winter. bought a UPZ boots. :)

[Jack Michaud]

Does a swallow-tail Burton Elite 150 and LL Bean duck boots count as a softboot freeride setup? I guess so. I went from that to a Safari, to a PJ 7, all on softboots and 3-straps. In the fall of '91 I got hardboots. My first freestyle board was a '94 Air 6.0. I skied from 3 to 14.

[k_t]

I liked burritos first so that is how I voted.
Skied after that. Alpine skies to teles to alpine again. Only the second time on alpine was on a board. Have never been in soft boots.


......................................

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by k_t
I liked burritos first so that is how I voted.
Skied after that. Alpine skies to teles to alpine again. Only the second time on alpine was on a board. Have never been in soft boots.


......................................

ok...burritos it is! asada anyone? (me, Im a vegetarian)

but...k_t is sorta the first that I caught that went skis directly to a hardboot setup

so...k-t...do you see say stuff like "****in snowboarders" and the like?

:)

[skywalker]

-Born 1974
-started skiing in 1984
-started Snowboarding in 1988, there was no alpine or freeride in Europe in these years
-Got my first "Race"-board 1993, an Generics IQ asymmetric
-Haven't ever used softboots.

So maybe I switched from skis to Hardboot-snowboarding ;)

[AlpentalRider]

started skiing in 90 (late bloomer)
softbooted in 95 (promptly gave up skiing)
hardbooted in 02

My throwing in the towel on skiing came because within a season of snowboarding, I was able to ride double diamond runs which had previously taken me 3 years to get proficient at on skis. Not to mention the feel of snowboarding felt so much better to me then skis.

I ride softboots 70% of the time, and hardboots 30%. I'm primarily a backcountry rider in my softies setup. But if it's a crappy day, I bust out my alpine gear and play in the groomers

[ncermak]

lets see...

I'm 33...
started sledding at about 3 or 4
started skiing in 7th grade...
started really skiing in college (Bates)...
Started boarding about 10 years ago...
Started Alpine the next year...
Started Teleboarding 5 years ago...
Started Tele skiing 4 years ago...
Tried a snowdeck last year...

All are good ways to get down a hill...

I still do all of them...
Anybody got any Ideas for whats next?

-Noah

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by ncermak

Anybody got any Ideas for whats next?


fruit boots.


I just added hardboots from day 1 as an option. Anyone??

[$trider]

Born in 1972.
Skiing winter of 74
Boarding first time (softboots) in 1990
Hardboots for the first time 1999

[ncermak]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
fruit boots.




????????

[Ray]

Into hard boots at the first day (1990).
Tried soft boots in '92 and hurt my ankle so much that I had to go right back to hard boots... lucky me ;)

[Jack Michaud]

you know, these (http://www.ski-injury.com/905295.jpg)

:p

[ncermak]

got 'em...

ride 'em occasionally.

fun for a spell, some teaching / educational value, but not an everyday toy...

Nice new avatar Jack...

[BBQ Chef]

Skis only until '97. Since then I have only been back on skis maybe 6 0r 7 times.

[trikerdad]

Started skiing in 83' at 38, tried softies in 90' at 45, was carving on softies (Burton locking high backs with the top strap) in 92, and in hard boots by 94. Now I'm that 'old guy' who scares the hell out of the tourists.

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney
Born 1965


Bob,
You are not old -- I was out of high school when you were born. Damn I am old

[trikerdad]

How about this? One of my 'ski boards'.

[ncermak]

Tell me those aren't screwed down...
tell thats not for real...

have you actually tried that? everyone says the tele board looks dangerous, but its got nothing on that contraption!

[trikerdad]

It's for real and ready to ride. This is my second pair, the first ones were made out of a pair Elan's. They worked well in the softer stuff, but weren't tortionally stiff enough in the hard pack. This pair is much stiffer tortionally. After the first pair, I'm more excited about trying these out than my new Donek or Coiler (I know they'll work well). The 'ski board' is very stable on the flats because you have the stiffness and directional stability of two skis and when you put it up on edge, it softens up and turns easily because you're only using one ski. It is funny to look down and see the ski that's not in contact with the snow kind of flapping in the breeze.

[D-Sub]

someone edited my poll...I didnt know you could do that.

my point wasnt to get people's life histories

I just notice a slight "anti snowboarder" stance here...but...carving IS snowboarding!

some of it was starting to get to me so I wanted to see. But...there arent as many straight from skiiing guys here, so I guess thats not why

[boogieman]

born in 1981
started skiing in 84
Started snowboarding with soft boots in 94 (didnt like it to much tried a alpine at the end of my vakation and i loved it !
so i Bought it, ( nidecker extreme 161 sl )

since that day i never put skies on again but now with the carving skies i would like to try it again but the boots you can rent always suck and i cant afford to buy myself snowboard and skiing equipment so ill just stick with boarding i gues, ill try it again this year i got myself some upz rsv superlight boots and it seems that you can skie with them also so ill try it out see what it gives

[skategoat]

Born in 1962
First skied in 1981
Bought first snowboard in 2002
Landed on head too often while trying to jib, found religon and switched to hard boots in late 2002.

Oh ya, definitely going to try skiing again this year. I bought a pair of boots last spring and they fit like butter. Amazing how far ski boots have come along in comfort. Previous boots were 10 years old.

[NMU Alpine Boarder]

Born 1983.

Rented a board at a "All Nighter" trip to Wilmot Mountain in 1996. This was my forst time at a "real" ski hill and my first time on a board.

Ran NASTAR in 99. Beat all my friends. Learned I liked speed.

Got on plates finally in 01. Still on a freeride board though.

Finally got a full Alpine setup (Factory prime, Burton Race Plates, Burton Reactors) in 02.

Last year was almost exclusively on plates. Only plan on using freestyle board in Powder this year.

[skategoat]

Born in 1962
First skied in 1981
Bought first snowboard in 2002
Landed on head too often while trying to jib, found religon and switched to hard boots in late 2002.

[D-Sub]

do you guys even read the original post?

:)

whoever started this "born in, started in..."

I feel like Albert Hoffman now

[trikerdad]

D-Sub, ever play the game in school where the students are supposed to pass a story from one to another and then compare the original to the last version?

[D-Sub]

yeah yeah, I know. Its just...I had something in mind. Guess I should have been more specific.

oh well:)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub

I just notice a slight "anti snowboarder" stance here...but...carving IS snowboarding!

some of it was starting to get to me so I wanted to see. But...there arent as many straight from skiiing guys here, so I guess thats not why

I think your original thought is correct - most of the people here may not be straight from skiing... but they spent most of their "formative" years as skiiers and from what I read, it looks like most of them were never very into freestyle/freeride setups and jumped at the chance to go back to hard shells. I mean most people spent many more years on skis than in softboot and then again more time in hardboots. Also the "snowboarder only" group tend to be younger it seems (partially because most here people started before mainstream snowboards existed)... Here's a consolidated listing of the first couple of posts:

started skiing in 1968. started snowboarding in 1986. first hard boots in 1989
Started softbooting in 1994, went alpine about 2002
started on softboots from 1993 until 1998, when I had my first alpine board, then half-half until 2002, now full time alpine.
Started skiing in 83' at 38, tried softies in 90' at 45, was carving on softies in 92, and in hard boots by 94.
Skis starting in '85, softies starting in '95, a couple half-days on plates in '01, mostly plates last season.
skis in the early 70's, tried soft boots in 94 for a total of 4 trips up the mtn. I rode alpine only for 8 years.
So that's 18 years on skis, then 3 years on softboots, and finally 15 years on hardboots.
8 years of softboots, 2 on hardboots (note: 16 years old)
7 years softboots, 2 years hardboots. (note: 25 years old)
7 years of skiing, the 2 years on softboots, and 10 on hardboots. 10 years skis, 6 years softboots, 3 years hardboots.
24 years on skis, 4 days on softboots, 8 years in hardbooters.

It goes on and on... but as you can see... most people here are are more "mature" in age and seemed to use softboots as more of a stepping stone than anything else. So I would say that the demographics seem to fit your theory about old-school skiier mentality. I started snowboarding in the tail-end of the "old school" period just as snowboarding was becoming mainstream I think (mid-90s) so I did notice a little bit of the snobby skiier dynamic, but it got much more chill in college (97-01) where we ran a snowboarding club that completely welcomed skiiers to join us on trip (we didn't even pressure them to switch over... well not much). On our trips, 1 out of 4 was a skiier and we never had any problems of skiier/snowboard snobbery.

I feel like, everyone under 30 knows the "old history" between skiiers and snowboarders, but it's more like a half-joke about the past than a real rivalry - like children who are friends despite their parents having grudges against each other.

[D-Sub]

I was. I tried skiing once. hated it. Mostly due to facing forward not feeling right to me since Ive been skateboarding since 1981.

anyway...yes...I get the point!

the motivation for the question was the apparent disdain expressed for "them"...

its like...snowboarding started out...and then this group of old dudes came along and focused on a microscopic aspect of it, and turned up their noses at the "others"

just like skiers do with snowboarders in general.

it just irks me

[nekdut]

My progression was softboots then hardboots like many of you here. However I tried skiing for the first time a few times this past season, and I liked it a lot. I was able to link carved turns pretty easily on green/blue runs and the forward facing stance did not seem too foreign, as I've really taught myself to crank way around, especially on my heelsides. Anyway, carving is still my passion, I'll just ski occasionally :p

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
I was. I tried skiing once. hated it. Mostly due to facing forward not feeling right to me since Ive been skateboarding since 1981.

anyway...yes...I get the point!

the motivation for the question was the apparent disdain expressed for "them"...

its like...snowboarding started out...and then this group of old dudes came along and focused on a microscopic aspect of it, and turned up their noses at the "others"

just like skiers do with snowboarders in general.

it just irks me

Heh... sorry, I often get overzealous in researching the evidence to back up my claims. I included a lot of evidence so someone wouldn't go back and try say that my data was incomplete.

I have an unusual pedigree as I started out as a rollerblader - both aggressive (aka freestyle) and hockey. Played a bit of ice hockey as well. Freestyle skateboard just never appealed to me. I did a tiny bit of skiing, but felt like skis were a lot like ice skates, but the extra length and stability made the better for bombing (straight skis) and not quick manuevrability of like slicing an arc path across the ice rink to blast by defenseme in hockey). I only like speed in that it gives me manueverability and freedom in the rink or on the slopes. I like to "play" on the slopes... whether it be doing jumps, in the halfpipe, or carving up a groomed run. So freestyle, freeride and alpine all provide different ways to "play." This summer I got my first longboard skateboard as a crosstrainer and I like how I can carve/turn it like a snowboard. Finally, I've come FULL CIRCLE and my friend gave me an extra freestyle deck to me to practice ollieing (I never tried to learn really). I doubt I'm going to spend much time on the freestyle skatedeck once I've mastered ollies, but who knows.

Getting back to the point (it takes me a while to do that). I too am annoyed by the occasional sense of snobbery. I mean I'm sure many teenagers can even worse when they make fun of carvers... but with the age differential being like +20 years, I expect we as the older, more mature group to take the high road - and for the most part we do - although I find the "I laughed harder as I carved down the rest of the mountain" line to be disingenuous. If it didn't bother you, you wouldn't have remembered it and posted it online to talk about it. I'm sure I've been made fun of a few times on my alpine setup or longboarding down a road by from kids on their freestyle skateboard decks - I forget about the jeers almost immediately after they are said. You shouldn't bear a grudge and lash back when you get the chance - let it the ignorance pass by you.

I've seen other instance where people are not as open-minded as they are here on BOL - there is a Longboard Skateboard site called www.silverfishlongboarding.com that has a similar freestyle vs carving dynamic - and there I watched a 45 years old man get into a flame war (http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6507&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75) with a 14 year old girl and then like two 16-18 year old boy who were just goading him on and on. Sure the kids were completely punks... but they are teenagers, it isn't too far a stretch for them... but it's just kind of pathetic for a grown man to be dragged into doing the same things as misbehaving children.

[D-Sub]

Im not gonna read those links:) see enough flame wars as is

my point is this:

there is a history to this. same goes for skateboarding. street and vert skating are 100% legitimate and take immense effort, skill, stamina, etc.

same goes for freeride setups...freestyle...whatever. While I prefer a skateboard if Im gonna ride a halfpipe (Im not very proficient really anyway) and I dont really dig the "gangsta" or rock star aspect of commercial snowboarding, they are still parts of the same sport

so...the 45 year old...my issue with him wouldnt be that he got into a flame war...it would be that he felt the need to bash what in essence are the origins of what he is doing now. Carving skateboards came from the same place that all other skateboards came from: surfing.

snowboards all have a common origin as well...right between surfing and snowboarding, no?

anyway...thanks for the detailed posts lonerider

[trikerdad]

'Them' are Them using the foul language, Them sitting in a group right in the middle of a run, Them coming out of the trees into a run in front of you, Them running over your ride in the lift line, Them walking off with your ride and saying " oh, it looks just like mine", etc. I think most of Them have matured or moved on to other things because I don't see it as much as I used to, but it was pretty bad back in the mid 90's. We have a local mountain, closer than the one I go to now, that I quit going to because I didn't want to be associated with Them.

[skategoat]

I don't know d-sub. I don't see the clear, direct link between surfing and snowboarding. Sure surfing was an influence but so was water-skiing, mono-skiing, cafeteria tray racing, you name it. Anything where you stood on a single board and tried to make it down a hill.

As a kid, I remember trying to ride a toboggan standing up and later making my own Snurfer with a plank of wood and a rope. At that point, I had never seen the ocean let alone a surfer.

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by trikerdad
'Them' are Them using the foul language, Them sitting in a group right in the middle of a run, Them coming out of the trees into a run in front of you, Them running over your ride in the lift line, Them walking off with your ride and saying " oh, it looks just like mine", etc. I think most of Them have matured or moved on to other things because I don't see it as much as I used to, but it was pretty bad back in the mid 90's. We have a local mountain, closer than the one I go to now, that I quit going to because I didn't want to be associated with Them.

Ive seen every single one of those behaviors in skiers as well.

ESPECIALLY the sitting in the middle of the run thing

one is an ******* BEFORE one chooses to ski or snowboard:)

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by skategoat
I don't know d-sub. I don't see the clear, direct link between surfing and snowboarding. Sure surfing was an influence but so was water-skiing, mono-skiing, cafeteria tray racing, you name it. Anything where you stood on a single board and tried to make it down a hill.

As a kid, I remember trying to ride a toboggan standing up and later making my own Snurfer with a plank of wood and a rope. At that point, I had never seen the ocean let alone a surfer.

ok...no direct relation. kinda a moot point tho

alpine snowboarding IS related to freestyle and freeride snowboarding. the origin IS the same. agreed?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
Ive seen every single one of those behaviors in skiers as well.

ESPECIALLY the sitting in the middle of the run thing

one is an ******* BEFORE one chooses to ski or snowboard:)

I don't really know the true origins of "snowboarding" but on this topic I agree. Poor behavior is not isolated to any particular sport (ski, snowboard, skiboard, etc). The only difference happens when people try to pretend that "their" group is better... same things with sport teams, etc...

[skategoat]

Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there.

I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard!

[slopetool]

Fruitbooting is a Crime


I've always leaned toward innertubing but got into cross-country with the family. I still love it.

Skied, blah, blah, blah
started boarding in '84
stopped skiing in '87
rode with ski boots in '89
switched to softies back and forth
rode with AT boots until '99 then switched to stiff clicker boots
now I ride both whenever and I started skiing again occassionaly
And I do own a silver saucer (anyone seen Saucerman?)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by skategoat
Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there.

I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard!

I'm not sure alpine is the evolutionary successor to softboots... consider it is as old. While it is merely "endangered" now, coming back from the brink of extinction thanks to the internet (allowing for online community and access to equipment that simply wasn't possible before) - I seriously doubt that it will ever comeback to overtake freeriding to become the dominant "subspecies."

The way I see it, there is nothing "fundamentally" different between softboot and hardboot setups such that you can do something on one type, but not the other - it's really more of "degree."

You say "alpine" stuff is hard. I think you should separate "alpine stuff" from "carving hard." I believe that "carving hard and clean" is difficult... no matter if you are on an alpine board, freeride board, or skis. From that perspective... it is *easier* to carve hard on alpine setup.

Skis, freestyle, alpine... to the beginner they all seem the same (sliding downhill on snow). To the intermediate their differences become apparent separate. To the master they all blend back into one ... it's very Zen-like ;)

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by skategoat
Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there.

I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard!

youre oversimplifying drastically, and once again making a distinction (and, somewhat indirectly, a statement of superiority)

yes, a pure carve is difficult, but is it as difficult as some of the moves done in freestyle now? Or...is..say...a couloir 50* pitch done in softboots less ballsy or impressive?

I dunno...Im not keen on manufactured distinctions anymore is all, and I certainly identify more with "them" than "skiers"

[skategoat]

I was oversimplifying for sure. The freestyle tricks are impressive as hell and really hard and take a lot of cajones. I was talking about free-riding really. To get the hang of freeriding on soft gear took me no time at all. An initial learning curve, a couple of head slamming falls and then I was there. Then I got bored. I realize now that the real problem was the limitation in the equipment for the type of riding I wanted to do. I was trying to ride fast and carve with soft gear. It took me a while to find out about alpine. Now I am finding that mastering clean carves on steep terrain on both toe and heel sides is really tough. I'm working on it.

[D-Sub]

not to keep beating on this..but...

"freeriding" involves a lot more, too. would depend on the mountain you are at of course.

but yes, solid carves are much harder than sliding around and the occasional jump:)

[AlpentalRider]

Originally posted by skategoat
I was oversimplifying for sure. The freestyle tricks are impressive as hell and really hard and take a lot of cajones. I was talking about free-riding really. To get the hang of freeriding on soft gear took me no time at all. An initial learning curve, a couple of head slamming falls and then I was there. Then I got bored. I realize now that the real problem was the limitation in the equipment for the type of riding I wanted to do. I was trying to ride fast and carve with soft gear. It took me a while to find out about alpine. Now I am finding that mastering clean carves on steep terrain on both toe and heel sides is really tough. I'm working on it.

The kind of freeriding you describe doesn't sound like what I would consider real advanced freeriding. Come ride the backcountry terrain with me on your freeride setup and tell me if you get bored.

The plain and simple truth is that freestyle, freeriding, and alpine are three distinct styles which all require high levels of skill to truly master and become proficient in. The only limitation to the advancement in those disciplines lies in the person attempting them.

I'm 32, skied for 6 years, am going on my 10th year of freeriding. When I took on alpine riding 3 years ago it took me all of 3 runs to be able to carve deep, clean lines. The reason, because my freeriding technique in softies set me up perfectly for alpine. Matter of fact I was so shocked at how easy it was to ride an alpine setup when compared to my freeride gear. I now love doing both because each style helps improve my technique in the other. To me they are very complimentary.

I do agree that there are alot of people on the hill in softies who don't know how to ride, or are just plain rude. But that's not because they are softie riders, that's because they are rude, unskilled people who just happen to have purchased softies gear. Guys like me and my buddies who truly know how to freeride in softy gear are in the backcountry, and not on the groomers. So the chances of you bumping into us is pretty slim.

Bottom line is measure the individual by their skills and behavior, not by the gear they happen to use. Alpine, freeride, and freestyle are all on equal footing, one is not better then the other. It's only a personal preference.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub

Originally posted by skategoat
I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard!
youre oversimplifying drastically, and once again making a distinction (and, somewhat indirectly, a statement of superiority)

I dunno...Im not keen on manufactured distinctions anymore is all, and I certainly identify more with "them" than "skiers"

Well that's because skategoat was a skiier, until he recently "seen the light" ;) :D :p Seriously though... I too never understood this need to distinguish between "us" and "them"... it's really should be a thing of the past I think. It's a new millenium now... time to get rid of "old school rivalries"!!! At my school's "Snowboard Club" we fully welcomed skiiers to come join us on the trips ... we had hundreds of snowboarders and skiiers peacefully coexisting together. We didn't see each other as "two plankers" or "knuckle draggers" we were just a bunch of friends hanging out together going to having fun together on the snow. Shouldn't that be how it is in general?


Originally posted by AlpentalRider
The kind of freeriding you describe doesn't sound like what I would consider real advanced freeriding. Come ride the backcountry terrain with me on your freeride setup and tell me if you get bored.

The plain and simple truth is that freestyle, freeriding, and alpine are three distinct styles which all require high levels of skill to truly master and become proficient in. The only limitation to the advancement in those disciplines lies in the person attempting them.

Bottom line is measure the individual by their skills and behavior, not by the gear they happen to use. Alpine, freeride, and freestyle are all on equal footing, one is not better then the other. It's only a personal preference.

Yea, I agree. That's what I was trying to say in my previous "Zen of Carving" post - in the end it's not the equipment. Alpine gear might make it easier for some people to learn how to ride and carve hard... but the type of equipment isn't fundemental to carving. The better you get, the more you realize that the techniques you learn alpine riding are applicable to freeriding and vice versa.

[skategoat]

lonerider, you are right. But I am going to try two planks again this year.

What I really like about this sport (all downhill snow sports) in the past 5-7 years is the diversity of equipment and styles. Remember the days when you would get your lift ticket pulled for catching air of any kind? Now I look at the table jumps and wish I was still 21 and able to take the hard knocks.

I love seeing all the different gear that people use now. Twin tips, telemark, blades, etc.

Alpental: I ride in the East. In Ontario. Our idea of back-country is the mounds of snow in the parking lots. Believe me, you would get bored riding here. The highest vertical within 6 hours drive is 700 feet. That's why I took up alpine. It was a challenge and it was enjoyable on groomers, hardpack and boilerplate.

[skywalker]

thre are some things I would like to say about "them" and "us":

In the beginning of snowboarding on the slopes (in mentionable numbers) in the 80s there were a lot of skiers of reasonable skills on the slopes. And not many snowboarders, but most of the basolute beginners (--> "them"). This even bacame worse with more people starting to be on the slopes with a snowboard and even more beginners. You could see snowboarders without any idea of how to use their gear, how to behave on the slopes and in alpine at all.

Today there are some hardbooters of rather high level skills on the slopes. Also some skiiers with various levels (maybe bacause many of th enthusiastics changed to snowboarding) and also many many softbooters with various skills.

In fact most of the absolute beginners and most of those who don't care use intermediate softboot-equipment, which looks like freeride. Also some of these use old skis or tose very short skis (I think you call them fruit-boots). These are detected as obstacles, as unkind, as beginners, as "them".

I think most of us respect verybody else with a considerable level of riding skills, independently from the gear he uses. But of course sometimes it's hard to do so with those who don't care about consideration at all. And we should learn to be more patient with the beginners.

[patmoore]

I started skiing in Bertchesgarden in the Bavarian Alps in 1956 and last skied at Mt. Tom in Holyoke, MA in 1962. Got divorced in 1993 and joined a ski club in 1996 to meet women (it worked - met my present wife there). A year later I tried boarding and bought a 168 cm Burton Air and saw my first hardbooter at Okemo. I bought my first alpine board the next weekend.

Today I split my time between racing on skis, cruising and racing on an alpine board and occasionally riding a soft boot setup.

It's a convoluted response but I think that answers the original question.



Pat

[lonerider]

Originally posted by skategoat
lonerider, you are right. But I am going to try two planks again this year.

What I really like about this sport (all downhill snow sports) in the past 5-7 years is the diversity of equipment and styles.

I love seeing all the different gear that people use now. Twin tips, telemark, blades, etc.


No worries... if alpine boards can reignite your passion for downhill of any type, and make skiing fun again... all the better. I totally agree that it's all about diversity of equipment and styles - there are many types of people with different personal preferences... so it only fits that there are several types of gear to match them as well.

[Jon Dahl]

most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded turns) when we think freeride.

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded turns) when we think freeride.

you must be watching different riders than I am. Turns are carved in the halfpipe, between hits in the park, and DEFINITELY in the backcountry

yes, some sliding/skidding is necessary. Hell, I do it on my alpine setup sometimes because I get going too fast and havent convinced myself that going uphill will do it.

anyway...I guess the argument will keep goin, because people rarely if ever allow their perception to change.

you know whats funniest of all?

I started on an alpine setup in 95 when I was livin in steamboat. I rode with a bunch of baggy pants havin dudes because I didnt know any other carvers. Well..actually..my aussie housemates, so I rode with them when given the chance, and a super cool cutie named Laura from New Hampshire I believe one week

anyway...one night I was sittin out in front of Heavenly Daze bar, waitin for a ride, and Im talkin to this group about how fun today was and how fun tomorrow is gonna be, and this dude says:

"Youre that Euro Fag in hard boots, huh?"

uh...Im actually from california, but yeah, Ive been riding hardboots a lot lately cuz its fun.

"**** that bull****, man. Fckin EuroFag"

and the guy wanted to FIGHT ME! Honest to god his face was read and he had inched his way closer to me. Thank god I was bigger and not scared or he certainly would have attacked me

this was from a snowboarder for chrissakes.

sad

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded
turns) when we think freeride.

I agree if you realize that by default all beginner snowboarders are freeriders, so you need to equate skidding with "beginners" and not with "snowboarders" with skidding (common misconception). So while most novice and low intermediate riders, which comprise the majority of snowboarders you see on the groomed slopes, don't see the advantage of carved turns, "freeriding" has nothing to do with skidding. Most beginner/intermediates (on snowboards OR skis) don't even know really known what "carved turns" are yet until someone tells them. When I was a just starting to snowboard, a friend who was a veteran snowboarder suggested that I try it. I listened to him and it opened my mind, that type of riding it simply never occurred to me before that moment. Fast forward several years, and now I'm the "veteran" snowboarder and many of my friends have picked it up from watching me ride down the slopes. Again, many of them were able link carved turns once they tried, it just never occurs to them that they can do that. So again, it isn't the equipment... it's the rider and his/her mindset. Alpine gear is good because it gets you into thinking "carve," but you can think "carve" on a freeride board too with the proper guidance. As D-Sub mentioned, advanced freestyle/freeriders in the halfpipe and in the backcounry (where you probably can't see them) DO carve.

Years ago, even though at the time we were spending around 50% of our time in the park and pipe, my friends and I would see hardbooters and thought it looked like fun, but never could find a place to rent them... so there are hardbooter converts waiting out there... we just need to show them what carving is and give them information on how to get alpine gear (and maybe drop the final hints of our '80s skiier-snob attitude, which went out of fashion two decades ago).

I'm sure some people love alpine boots in the backcountry... the point is that it's a personal preference - my friend (the same friend who taught me to carve), now rides backcountry now... and occasionally he rides down on a snowskate deck (he won it in a halfpipe contest and wasn't able to sell it on Ebay) with bungie cords added on for straps.

[Jon Dahl]

to some extent that advanced halfpipe riders do carve in the pipe, that being said, most advanced intermediate riders (more proper classification) don't get the basics of edge control, ie carved turns. Notice I said most. Doesn't matter where I've ridden, Colorado or Washington, I see very little of it done on purpose, especially softbooters. I've been preaching the benifits of it to all I know, and to no avail. Must just be me.

[Jeffrey Day]

I started skiing in 86/87 season.
Picked up snowboarding in softies in 96!
Never touched the skiis again!
Kinda sorta soft boot carved from 98-00!
Picked up first carving set-up at the end of 00!
Now I ride my alpine gear 90%...softies 10%!

Snowboarding as a life-style:priceless!

[philfell]

I skied a few times at a ski area in '88, but the same winter I was crushing the pow at my local golf course with my black snow. Started to snowboard with my k-mart boots in '90 (my feet were so small I only could heelside slip because I would fall out of my bindings if I went to my toe side.) Started "carving" with soft boot, flex bindings, and a PJ 4.9 in '92. Went to hard boots in '93. Started skiing a few days a year again in '97.

[boostertwo]

<img src="http://tinypic.com/dzkom">

Started snurfing in '68. Started alpine skiing in '72 and was stoked on the speed and the lifts. Continued skiing and snurfing throughout my youth, and started snowboarding more or less exclusively since 1983 (when we were hiking ski areas for our vertical--and getting hassled by ski area management for doing so). Started riding lifts in '84 at good ol' Jay Peak in Vermont (where I don't think snowboarding was ever prohibited) and didn't ski much after that. First rode hard boots in '88, and have ridden them more often than any other gear since--though I still ride softies and alpine and tele ski whenever the conditions are right.

Looking forward to a great winter!

[AlpentalRider]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
to some extent that advanced halfpipe riders do carve in the pipe, that being said, most advanced intermediate riders (more proper classification) don't get the basics of edge control, ie carved turns. Notice I said most. Doesn't matter where I've ridden, Colorado or Washington, I see very little of it done on purpose, especially softbooters. I've been preaching the benifits of it to all I know, and to no avail. Must just be me.

think the problem is you are improperly classifying those "advanced intermediate" freeriders. To me, an intermediate freerider needs to be able to properly link turns. If they can't do that, then they are not an intermediate, they are somewhere between intermediate and beginner.

I do agree that there are very few advanced to expert level freeriders on a given hill. Most everyone you run into are between beginner and intermdiate level. The only time I run into other expert riders is in the backcountry. That's where expert softboot riders tend to congregate (and where I do 90% of my riding).

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by patmoore
saw my first hardbooter at Okemo. I bought my first alpine board the next weekend.

Back when I was a skier, I used to look at the (minimal) sidecut of my skis and think about bending them into an arc and carving a turn. But it couldn't really be done - there just wasn't enough sidecut. Still, the idea was there in my head.

Then in the early 90s I saw a guy on a snowboard laying down perfect carves. I almost started jumping up and down in excitement - that was what I wanted to do! That's what I'd been dreaming about! Here was somebody actually doing it (albeit on a snowboard)!

I'd been carving in my dreams for years. I just had to wait for the equipment to catch up.

[k_t]

Originally posted by D-Sub


so...k-t...do you see say stuff like "****in snowboarders" and the like?

:)

No, I am one now. More like "****in' flippers and skidders" when it comes to most of the soft boot "huckers and flippers" out there making "boarduroy".

Naturally I had to hear every snowboarder joke ever told when I started riding. Some I have to say are kind of funny even if I am one.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlpentalRider
think the problem is you are improperly classifying those "advanced intermediate" freeriders.
I'd like to hear from some of the instructors out there how they class riders. I've taken group lessons before. Both times I was in an "advanced" group where I was the only one who knew how to carve at all, on any terrain. Soured me on lessons, I can tell you that much.

[boogieman]

thats becouse most ppl who can link turns think they can snowboard and now everything there is to know about it i have the same problem for years im trying to get my some decent courses here in europe but first of all nobody uses a alpine board moast ppl look at me like im an alien with my raceboard so there are almoast no instruktors who teach alpine boarding wel at least i still have to meet one and each year i ask for one
and moast ppl are greedy and say when i know the basics i can learn the rest on my own so the advanced courses are moastly beginners in my eyes! they have to split up in beginners intermediate and advanced and they can only do that with what they have at least here in europe its like that thats why im going to the sun peaks carve camp in december (cant find anything like that here by us) . hope it will be as good as i expect it to be

[Jon Dahl]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AlpentalRider
To me, an intermediate freerider needs to be able to properly link turns. Yes they do! I just wish it was you who did the classifying! Unfortunatly, that is the norm in the so called advanced intermediate rider, not the exception, and we'll have to keep preaching until we die or they go deaf.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl
Originally posted by AlpentalRider
To me, an intermediate freerider needs to be able to properly link turns. Yes they do! I just wish it was you who did the classifying! Unfortunatly, that is the norm in the so called advanced intermediate rider, not the exception, and we'll have to keep preaching until we die or they go deaf.

Yea... I got to take a few "advanced" classes for free at Northstar and the instructors had us practicing linking carved turns... switch. :D

Before that, to warm up and have us "feel" the rhythm of the linked turns they had us all go down a mogul field.

So back to the topic, my experience has been that an intermediate must be able to link turns - if they can't they are still in the beginner/novice. As an intermediate improves from the lower-intermediate to advanced-intermediate subrange... they learn how to make their linked turns cleaner (i.e. skid less and carve more) and more fluid (i.e. adjusting the tempo and size of their turns).