Bomber: Introducing the Bomber Isolation Plate for the 2010/2011 Season

[fin]

June 2010: Bomber Industries will be introducing an isolation plate, for the 2010/2011 season! (Heck, everyone else is so why not us)

With the official end to the 2009/2010 season here in Colorado with Arapahoe Basin closing just a few weeks ago, we have concluded all out testing on the Bomber Plate. Starting in the Fall of 2009 we worked closely with professional racer Mike Trapp with the Steamboat team on the concept of the plate. With Mike's involvement and the input from several other top level racers we were able come up with a successful final design.

So what is a Plate System for a carving board? Without getting to far into the history, there have been variations of plate system for carving boards for some time now. Some dating back to the early nineties. However, the majority of them have been designed around MODIFYING the flex of a snowboard or simply raising the rider up and adding mass. The new generation of plates that have been used successfully in World Cup racing for the past few years are a true ISOLATING system for the snowboard. Much like the suspension on a motorcycle that allows the rider to absorb and isolate the bumps and terrain changes on the ground, a plate system does the same for the snowboard rider. However, there are some very cool and effective sub-benefits to a plate system:

A plate system does not try to modify the flex of a snowboard, a matter of fact its design is to make the least amount of effect on that snowboard. So now the board is allowed to flex and bend in a very pure and true fashion. Neither the rider nor any auxiliary hardware is negatively affecting the natural flex of the board. We have great faith in our very talented board manufacturers, who are we to try and modify the flex of their board?
The rider’s stance/set-up is no longer changing/moving during a turn. When a non-plate board dives into a turn it decambers quite a bit and also twists. So now your “power stance” that you meticulously set-up goes out of wack on each turn. You feet move towards each other (stance width gets shorter), your feet angle towards each other, and your feet twist out of plane with each other. Because humans are good at it we adapt and make it work. Now image you are on a plate that stays “flat” during the turn while the board is decambering and twisting under the plate. All your hard work to get that perfect “power stance” is maintained and you have more power and stability in that turn.
The Bomber Plate will have the following features and benefits:

Unidirectional Carbon Fiber on Main Plate: Precisely controls flex characteristics in the desired direction. A high ratio of strength/stiffness to weight can be achieved with Carbon Fiber.

Monocoque, High Density Foam Core Design: allows for a very rigid, strong, and lightweight plate.

Manufactured using Precise Pressure Molding Technique: some carbon fiber plates are made using a vacuum bag process that uses low pressure and lower strength epoxy to form the shape. These types of parts tend to have design flexibility in their shape but at the sacrifice of strength and durability. Bomber is using the same method of carbon fiber production that gives you the highest amount of strength and precision in a carbon fiber part. This is done with a dedicated high pressure solid mold with high strength epoxy. These are the same methods the aerospace industry uses. It is a more expensive and time consuming process but you get a better product.

Tunable Pivots Points: allows the end user to pick the pivot position they desire.

Precision Made Aluminum and Stainless Steel Pivots and Hardware: Bomber’s strength has always been precise machined parts and these will be no different. Tight tolerance pivots so there is no slop or unneeded movement in the system.

Low Friction and Serviceable Pivots: any friction in a plate systems pivots is unwanted, it should move smooth as butter at all times. Our pivots are high-end composite bearings that need no lubrication.

Low Weight and Low Profile: the Bomber Plate will have a very low weight due to its use of Carbon Fiber and other lightweight materials. This allows your entire system to not feel like you have a small car attached to your feet. Also, the height of the plate will be one of the lowest in the industry to keep your nose bleeds to a minimum. * Final weight and height to be announce when in final production

5mm Hex Key for Easy Install and Adjustments: You saw this coming. 5mm Hex key is all you need. The plate will be installed and removed with ease. Unlike some of the other current systems where you need to be the original engineer for the Rubik’s Cube to figure out, the plate is quick and simple to work with.

Mounting Pattern Options: the Bomber Plate will be available for both current 4-hole patterned boards and the new UPM Pattern (http://www.bomberonline.com/images/UPM Pattern Drawing v1.jpg). *the UPM stands for “Universal Plate Mount” and seems to be the prevailing pattern that most board manufacturers have adapted. It works for us so we are in! These will be different models, however, it will only be a difference in the "lower hardware" that mounts it to the board. Both models will use the same plate. So it is possible to switch from one model to the other by just purchasing different "lower hardware".

Compatible with all 4 Hole Bindings: Your current bindings will work with the Plate.

Bomber Rock Solid Warranty and Customer Service: we have been making hardware for you guys for close to twenty years now and we plan to do it for at least the next twenty years. We like what we do and plan to make sure you always like what we do as well. If you have an issue with your plate, you know we’ll take care of you.

The Bomber Plate is scheduled to be available in the Fall of 2010. We will have more details and pricing at that time.

If you have any questions or comments please ask them here and we will do our best to answer them.


__________________________________________________ _______
Help Name Our New Product

Go to this thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30909)to find out how you can win a Plate from Bomber by helping us name this bad boy!

[bjvircks]

How is the selectable pivot location implemented? How variable is it? How much range? Does this mean the span between 'to the board' attachments and fore-aft location is adjustable?

How narrow is it?

I'm in. Now I need to be nice until Christmas! Its going to be a long summer.

[02halo]

Even a vague idea as to how much money I should be socking away?

[Donek]

I believe Fin's adjustment range is from 60cm to 54cm distances on the pin to slider. On the UPM this is adjustable in 3cm increments. I'm not sure on the spacing of the 4X4 system though. If I'm wrong Fin just delete this.

[SunSurfer]

I noted the 2cm setback on the UPM pattern Fin has published, and was intrigued as to
1/ Why this has been chosen, rather than centred?
2/ What reference "centre" is this setback in relation to, given that many of the boards these plates will end up on will be NSR shapes with decambered noses?
3/ What are the min/max distances between the binding inserts on top of the plate?

SunSurfer

[bjvircks]

Which version is in the big photo... UPM or 4x4 ? I suspect UPM

[lowrider]

SECOND GUESS???:AR15firin

[Donek]

I noted the 2cm setback on the UPM pattern Fin has published, and was intrigued as to
1/ Why this has been chosen, rather than centred?
2/ What reference "centre" is this setback in relation to, given that many of the boards these plates will end up on will be NSR shapes with decambered noses?
3/ What are the min/max distances between the binding inserts on top of the plate?

SunSurfer

The setback moves the front loading point a bit closer to the waist or stiffer portion of the board. The center is as determined by the manufacturer. Most manufacturers will center their hole pattern on the board. You should find that the hole pattern on the plate centers up on this location. There is sort of a standardized spacing evolving on the 4X4 system for alpine boards. It is really based on what Kessler and Vist set up. I think it was about 1/4in wider than the stance range I have run for years. It covers 16.5in(42cm) to 22.8in (58cm). Although with a Bomber binding, I think that is actually extended to 15in (38cm) to 24.4in (62cm) dues to adjustability. Based on my last conversations with Fin, this is the stance range he is using on the plate.

[Donek]

Which version is in the big photo... UPM or 4x4 ? I suspect UPM

I believe from this view, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Everything changes under the plate.

[bjvircks]

Thanks, Sean

Bite me, lowrider! (|)








all in good fun, no disrespect intended.

[pow4ever]

Hi Fin:

Looks great!!!

Just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

We can use <NAME TBD: Bomber Magic Carpet> plate with hangel insert only board by changing the underneath hardware ?

Will there be HW to support vist insert? It's just 4x4 with additional pivot point right?

Maybe it's time to buy those kessler in the classified section.

As always thank you for keeping us update on the new and exciting product.

Thanks
David

[lowrider]

I especially like the insert pack,:biggthump aluminum or stainless ?

[CarvingScooby]

Mounting Pattern Options: the Bomber Plate will be available for both current 4-hole patterned boards and the new UPM Pattern (http://www.bomberonline.com/images/UPM Pattern Drawing v1.jpg). *the UPM stands for “Universal Plate Mount” and seems to be the prevailing pattern that most board manufacturers have adapted. It works for us so we are in! These will be different models, however, it will only be a difference in the "lower hardware" that mounts it to the board. Both models will use the same plate. So it is possible to switch from one model to the other by just purchasing different "lower hardware".

Hi Fin,
First CONGRATULATION.

:1luvu:UPM system is very good idea:biggthump
Is one of the UPM "lower hardware" can be mount on latest version of HANGL PLATE config holes? (No idea what's the dimension of "latest" HP)

Thanks
RT

[RCrobar]

Hello Fin

With a pivot at one end and a slide at the other of a plate system, it seems clear as to how a boards' flex along it's tip to tail 'bending' is not affected by the plate/binding/rider interface.

It is NOT clear, however, as to how the plate system remains independent of a board when it twists. It seems that either the board will twist the plate or the plate will stop the board from twisting.

Fin, could explain how the plate and it's mounting system are able to remain independent or unaffected by the torsional twist of a snowboard?

Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Rob

[Surf Quebec]

Is the targer rider a racer or anybody carving will find their carving with the plate better and having more fun ?

[Donek]

Hello Fin

With a pivot at one end and a slide at the other of a plate system, it seems clear as to how a boards' flex along it's tip to tail 'bending' is not affected by the plate/binding/rider interface.

It is NOT clear, however, as to how the plate system remains independent of a board when it twists. It seems that either the board will twist the plate or the plate will stop the board from twisting.

Fin, could explain how the plate and it's mounting system are able to remain independent or unaffected by the torsional twist of a snowboard?

Thank you in advance for your explanation.
Rob

I would say that torsionally, the plate becomes a flex modifyer. I have made no attempt at making this aspect independent of the boards twisting. As it is as (or more) torsionally stiff as the board itself, the plate will increase the torsional rigidity of the board between the feet. When I first rode a plate I thought this might be a bad thing, but did not even notice it. As a result of increasing the overall torsional rigidity of the binding interface, your feet will experience less movement (the overall goal of such a system).

While I have taken one run on the Bomber plate, I have not examined it in great detail. Fin and I have discussed our systems in detail, but have never touched on this aspect, but I do not believe Fin has taken any steps to make the torsional aspect independent of the plate.

[Donek]

Is the targer rider a racer or anybody carving will find their carving with the plate better and having more fun ?

I believe the target rider is any carver. If you examine the trends in the ski industry, you'll see they've been developing integrated binding systems designed to decouple the flex of the ski from the interface for a number of years. This has been targeted at the masses, not just racers. It is a real advantage to everyone. It took me one run to see it. It's unlikely that this will be a race specific innovation.

[fin]

bjvircks: How is the selectable pivot location implemented? How variable is it? How much range? Does this mean the span between 'to the board' attachments and fore-aft location is adjustable? How narrow is it?

The center to center (CC) distance of our pivot points on the plate are adjustable by moving the aluminum pivot brackets on the plate itself. Right now the CC range is going to be 60cm down to 54cm.

Yes, the actual location of the plate is also adjustable in its relation to the board. Due to the use of the new UPM Pattern you have extra holes to move the plate for and aft on the board as well.

Our plate should be about 18.5cm at its widest and 17cm at its narrowest.

* These numbers are not set in stone at this time so we reserve the right to change them at production.

[fin]

SunSurfer: 3/ What are the min/max distances between the binding inserts on top of the plate?

Sean did a great job of answering your first two questions. Bottom line it is up to the board mfg to determine their "board center" as I believe they all have their method for determining this. And given you can move both the plate and binding for and aft, it is somewhat irrelevant.

Right now I have a min. binding distance on our plate of 18in and a max. of 21.25". Add the movement of the binding itself (slots in the binding) you could go down to 17" and up to 22.25".

Our current design does allow a center to center (CC) adjustment of the pivots from 60cm down to 54cm.

The version in the picture is the UPM version but even the 4 hole version looks similar from these picture angles.


pow4ever: We can use plate with hangl insert only board by changing the underneath hardware ?

Yes, but it will rely on two factors 1) the CC distance of your Hangl pattern is compatible and 2) you use the special Hangl lower hardware we plan to make for existing boards with this pattern. I talked a bit more about all this HERE (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=309223&postcount=22).


Will there be HW to support Vist insert? It's just 4x4 with additional pivot point right?

Our system does not use the Vist center inserts. And not sure what you are asking with the second part of this question?

Lowrider: right now the test plate use aluminum insert "strips". However, there is a chance the final version will use stainless inserts.

[fin]

Carving Scooby: Is one of the UPM "lower hardware" can be mount on latest version of HANGL PLATE config holes? (No idea what's the dimension of "latest" HP)
Did I answer this in the past post (above). If not let me know.


RCrowbar: It is NOT clear, however, as to how the plate system remains independent of a board when it twists. It seems that either the board will twist the plate or the plate will stop the board from twisting.

Fin, could explain how the plate and it's mounting system are able to remain independent or unaffected by the torsional twist of a snowboard?

Sean did a good explanation but here is my take as well. Yes, our plate does in fact make the board torsionally stiffer between the feet so in this aspect it is a flex-modifier. However, because of the nature of the system you have to have this aspect. In order to isolate the rider the plate cannot torionally flex, if it did , then there is no isolation. The good news is this aspect seems to be a fantastic quality for performance at the medium to higher speeds.

BUT, there is one aspect to this that can be an issue for some riders. And I just want to be open about this so there is no issues down the road. At low to low-medium speeds a plate system can be a bit of a burden. Whether you agree or like the aspect of "pedaling" (twisting of the feet relative to each other) you lose this ability somewhat with a plate system.

Story time: :biggthump

In the Fall of last year when we started work on this I tried a plate system that Trappy had made himself. When I went up to the top of the run Trappy gave me one warning, "when you get to the bottom of the run, you won't be able to stop". I laughed thinking he was just kidding or talking about speed as a whole. When I got to the end of the run I went to do the classic hockey type stop (pitch board sideways and come to stop) and I proceeded to just spin around and do a 270, arms waving, little control over the spin, until I stopped. With the aspect of the "pedalling" gone I was not able to twist the board (as I/we apparently do subconsciously) and bring the board to a stop. I had felt something like this when testing the Happy Fun Plate the year before with the Torsion Bar attachment, but this was the next level. Obviously for racers, the Plate systems made sense, they generally live at those high speeds. I also did have some racers state that when they come out of the gate you had to be extra careful when using a plate as they are a bit unstable until they get "up to speed". By the way, like a lot of new things, you got used to this aspect of not able to pedal at the stop and just made changes to how you did it. Eventually, stopping was not an issues using various other techniques.

So what am I saying on this? A plate system is not for everyone. If you are going out to just cruise at lower speeds you might want the ability to pedal and a plate does not help here. But if your goal is to go out and rail as hard as you can at the higher speeds, plate do work and work very well.

[bobdea]

they generally live at those high speeds. I also did have some racers state that when they come out of the gate you had to be extra careful when using a plate as they are a bit unstable until they get "up to speed". By the way, like a lot of new things, you got used to this aspect of not able to pedal at the stop and just made changes to how you did it. Eventually, stopping was not an issues using various other techniques.



yup, even hangls are like that.

[fin]

* Disclaimer: Bomber is now a mfg of a plate system. So please understand that I am trying to make my opinions as neutral as I can so you can make your own educated decision if this is a product for you. Oh, and buy more stuff from us.


Surf Quebec: Is the target rider a racer or anybody carving will find their carving with the plate better and having more fun ?

Ah, and here is the big kahuna of questions on a plate system, who is it for?

Obviously the origins of a plate system are in racing. The benefits are obvious and quite effective as seen in this last season of racing. So I would say this is not really a debate for the racer.

But is it for the free carver? As I described in the above thread there is one issue I admitted, is the ability to pedal is now gone or at least reduced significantly. Does this mean a free carver cannot use it, not at all. Just like the first time you put on hardboots, you had to make some changes in your technique.

Honestly, when I first started this project I was also under the impression a plate system was just for racers. The more I rode it the less I thought this. I know so many free carvers that take their gear to the next level why would it be a bad thing to allow FOR another level.

Also, a plate has this amazing ability to smooth out terrain that might not be perfect for carving. We had one test day at Arapahoe basin where conditions where what i call "Combat Carving". You know the day, soft snow pushed up here and there in piles so you are constantly trying to balance and maintain edge control all the while desperately moving your legs up and down to absorb the varying terrain. We rode like this all day on boards with no plate system. At the end of the day i decided to take the plate out just to see. Sure enough all the terrain that was a challenge become MUCH easier to crave on. It was almost spooky the way it absorbed the terrain. So is this a quality in a setup you would like on those days of combat carving? Maybe it is.

I think the real hurdles for the free carver with a plate system are going to price and weight. Added height is a bit of a concern but I think it is not such a big deal. That said i have tried to make the Bomber plate as low as I can as this should not be ignored. The extra weight of a plate system IS a factor for a free carver. I and others would feel the extra weight as the day progressed. Moving that extra mass around did take its toll on your ability to carve all day. With the heavy prototype plates I was running I was seeing myself getting to that "I need to stop now" point sooner in the day. So getting the weight down to a minimum is going to be key to the free carver.

Price is also going to be a tough one. Is it justifiable to spend several hundred to $1000+ dollars on something you technically don't need? That is up to you. But my goal is to make the lightest and most affordable plate out there. And to do this we have decided to go right to the top on material and go Carbon Fiber (CF). It is the only material to allow for high strength but low weight. Unfortunately, it comes at a cost. We could make a cheaper plate but gain weight so in my opinion this makes for a harder plate to use so what would be the point.

One side note, we put the plate (4 hole version) on some older boards that rode OK. As reported before, a plate system does in fact make an OK board ride better. So maybe the cost of a plate is justified due to it can revive and old favor deck of yours?

It will be an interesting season ahead of us as we see people try our plate in all kinds of riding. One cool quality of our plate is the 4 hole version should go on most existing boards. So you have the ability to demo it and see for yourself. We'll have demos here at our shop and at most of the big Session events during the season as well.

[CarvingScooby]

Did I answer this in the past post (above). If not let me know.

Nop but you've posted here http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=309223#post309223 , thx.
RT

James, bobdea is correct, over the years the Hangl has had a few versions come out. The first was a "three screws per bracket" that was designed to use ski screws for mounting. After that a two screw pattern was adopted (with a 30mm center to center on the screws) that was designed for inserted boards. However, where the real issue in compatibility comes from is the center to center (CC) distance between the front and rear Hangl pattern. It seems that originally this distance varied depending on the rider. I have measured quite a few race decks with Hangl patterns and for the most part the CC distance move around all over the place. For the third version of the Hangl pattern I belive this CC distance was set a certain distance. However, I am not able to confirm this.

So whats the big deal? Well with all these Mono-plate systems coming out they rely on the CC distance of the inserts to be consistent. This is where the board guys decided to go with the UPM pattern as it is essentially a modified Hangl pattern that is, if anything, consistent. It also has more inserts so that a adjustments in position of the plate can be made.

http://www.bomberonline.com/images/UPM%20Pattern%20Drawing%20v1.jpg


OK, now let me see if I can really muddy the waters! So if you have a current snowboard with a Hangl pattern of some CC distance will the Bomber plate fit? The answer is yes and no. We plan to make a run of special lower assemblies that will allow a rider with a current Hangl pattern to use our plate. As Snowman mentioned it will be a bit bigger as it will have to have slots to allow for the various CC distances that the Hangl pattern has. If your board with a Hangl pattern will fit, you are good to go, if it does not, sorry. You will have to do a measurement of your board to find out if there is a fit.

[Michael Pukas]

To address a couple of things Fin said above re: plate weight and loosing the ability to pedal the board; we pretty quickly got used to both issues. To a point where they were non-issues after a couple days.

The weight was the first thing that was immediately apparent. Especially on a lift w/ no foot rest. But on the last day of testing @ A-Basin, Sean and I were riding his proto boards and plates, and after several runs and lift rides, we simultaneously looked at each other and said - I don't even notice the extra weight of the plate any more. Now, that's not to say that riding 4, 5, or 6 hard days in a row (like @ the SES), it wouldn't be noticeable, but there's certainly a level of conditioning and getting used to it where' it's not that big of deal. Lighter is better though!

One important thing to mention about Trappy's plate (and I have not ridden it) is that it is made of aluminum - there's absolutely no flex in it at all. It seems the stiffer the plate the less you can pedal the board (duh). Even with stiffest plate protos, there was still a little flex that allowed a little pedal control. None of us testers really had any issues w/ low speed control, like Fin described with Trappy's, and I attribute that to the proto plates having a little flex, not being completely rigid.

One of the only draw backs I've noticed, and this can apply to the everyday lazy carver like me or to serious racers, is that when you fall, there's a lot more stress on the feet. When we fall, one of the instincts/techniques we use to arrest ourselves is to use the board edge to scrape the snow. Without a plate, the board will twist and deflect, effectively absorbing some of that shock. With a plate, there's more weight, and the board can't twist and deflect the same way, and more impact force is transfered to your feet and ankles. I still recall one fall, and wince when I think about it. I had to gimp the rest of the way down. I don't think any of the other guys ever noticed this as an issue though. Maybe 'cuz I fall more than they do...

[RCrobar]

Hi Fin


Fin Writes: Also, the height of the plate will be one of the lowest in the industry to keep your nose bleeds to a minimum. * Final weight and height to be announce when in final production*

What is the height of the suspension plate in the picture that is currently shown on the Bomber web site?

Does alpine or BMX snowboard racing have a maximum height rule with regards to binding/plate height? If yes, what is this height?

If I chose to run the Bomber plate (as currently shown) and TD3 Sidewinders with zero degree cants front and back, how high would my boot be off of the board?

Thanks Fin
Rob

[fin]

Rob,

Currently our plate is coming in around 26mm (1.02") in height. I am trying to lower that even more for the final version but there is only so much that can be done.

As I know it (and reserve the right to be wrong) there is not height restriction on alpine racing and BX set-ups at this time.

Total height will always be determined by the stack height of all the parts. But for now you can just take your set-up height with out the plate and add about 26mm. Bottom line, you are going to be higher than you are now. No way around it at this point. One thing we may do is offer the TD2 lower assembly as an option as it is 4mm lower than the TD3 one. The good news is the less suspension effect of the TD2 lower is not a big deal in this set-up as the plate system itself IS the suspension system.

[Jack Michaud]

I think the real hurdles for the free carver with a plate system are going to price and weight

ok, so spill the beans! :D

[Donek]

[I]*
I think the real hurdles for the free carver with a plate system are going to price and weight.

I had a visit from one of my vendors a couple days ago. I was showing him the plate system and he compared it to a suspension system on a mountain bike. His comment was that a suspension system dramatically reduces rider fatigue and that the reduction in effort to ride would balance out the added effort on the lift. I don't have enough days on our plate to confirm this, but I did not seem to have an issue with the added weight on the lift.

[Jack Michaud]

I had a visit from one of my vendors a couple days ago. I was showing him the plate system and he compared it to a suspension system on a mountain bike. His comment was that a suspension system dramatically reduces rider fatigue and that the reduction in effort to ride would balance out the added effort on the lift. I don't have enough days on our plate to confirm this, but I did not seem to have an issue with the added weight on the lift.

I haven't been on one of these new style plates yet but the things that I didn't like about the Vist after riding it for a day were that the weight made the board harder to maneuver when not carving, was noticeable during carve transitions, and that the reduction in snow feel led to a much shorter warning window of when I was about to lose a carve. I'd be railing along feeling like a champ and then kapow, I'd be on my ass thinking "what happened??" while sliding very fast with a much heavier thing on my feet. I completely agree with Michael's assessment of falling with a plated board - not fun. For me these plates are going to have to weigh no more than a Vist (hopefully less) and work a lot better than a Vist to be worth the weight penalty. It sounds from the testing notes that they stand a good chance of doing just that, so I'm optimistic. I hope and imagine that one will be able to compensate for the reduced snow feel over time with practice.

[nils]

Great engineering at work, again :)

My stupid question is: Since we know that a board works with a combination of longitudinal flex and torsion control ( among other things).. how do board torsion distribution works with a plate with its "pods" on the sides of the board, aka where the torsion distribution is critical. In other words: how does the plate manage to let the torsion freely "move" or react?

I have also another concern regarding weight of set ups in general, i'm not totally convinced i'm going to like heavy gear...as in surfing, heavy gear is good for big rides ( in snowboard: racing), but what about the freecarving / small jumps / EC etc : versatility of a heavy equipment..?

nils

[RCrobar]

Fin Writes: One thing we may do is offer the TD2 lower assembly as an option as itis 4mm lower than the TD3 one. The good news is the less suspension effect of the TD2 lower is not a big deal in this set-up as the plate system itself IS the suspension system.

Sounds like a great idea Fin! I wondered if the lower TD2 assembly was now a redundant part of the binding because of the suspension plate? I also pondered the idea that the binding and plate would eventfully evolve over time until they become one; I am sure I am not the only rider that has pondered the idea:)


Nils Writes: how do board torsion distribution works with a plate with its "pods" onthe sides of the board, aka where the torsion distribution is critical.In other words: how does the plate manage to let the torsion freely"move" or react?

I would like to add a second part to Nils' question.

How does the selection of the traditional 4x4 vs UPM Pattern affect the torsion distribution of a board? At first glance it would seem that the 4x4 plate mounting system would have less affect on a board's torsion distribution when compared to the UPM pattern. Is this a correct assumption?

Fin, Sean, thank you again for taking the time to respond.
Rob

[colintkemp]

Nils,

I cannot speak meaningfully to your more technical question about flex and the like, but I can try to offer some thoughts on your other question - i.e., freecarve, jumps, EC.

For reference: I mainly ride a 180 Kessler KST w/ Hangl, and was just getting onto my 182 Coiler NSR w/ Vist until a fall ended my season. So, I'm on what most would consider race-centered gear.

1. Freecarve. My plates have been excellent for freecarving, which is what I do. (I no longer race.) But I do think Fin had a great point in an earlier post - plates may not be perfectly suited for cruiser type riding. I generally ride hard and fast, and very much enjoy the impact of the plates. I think plates enhance riding ability (through at least (i) dampening, (ii) allowing board flex, while plates stay more rigid and (iii) elevation of the bindings). (I also believe modern race boards, and this is obvious, work well with plates to enhance fast, hard riding - unbelieviably damn.)

I would really like to hear how a SWOARD + plate performs...

2. Jumps. This, to me, is where the weight of a plate might have the biggest detrimental impact. These days, I'm not much of a jumper, but plates tend to make the board more "massive" under you. So, I might take a nice smooth long, flat jump; in contrast, navigating a line for this or that big hit - which would require inching the board this or that way - would be tough. (This idea, I think, is similar to what Fin, Michael and Jack suggested about manueverability w/ a plate.)

3. EC. I can't speak to this. Someone else?

Again, I would love to hear a SWOARD + plate review.

Fin, Michael and Jack,

Oddly (perhaps), I never had the pedal problem. (Granted I've only ridden on Hangl and Vist.)

But, I completely agree: falling with plates is not for the faint of heart; you're attached to a tug boat.

Sean,

I tend to side with you on the weight issue. My main riding area (Sugar Bowl, Tahoe) does not have a lot of chairs with board bars. I am used to the weight. I'm not saying the boards are light, but so be it.

Finally, Jack,

I agree about "reduction in snow feel." But I wonder if that is the tail side of the "damp" head side of the coin - that's the negative of the benefit. But this just may go back to another conversation of ours - what is my Coiler like w/o the Vist. It's July. Long summer.

Colin

[Snowman]

Got to see the new inner workings of Fins Plate project. WOW! Nowhere near production yet and my jaw has hit the floor again. The work that has been done so far is very impressive. Another Bomber product that is going to be well worth the anxious anticipation. Chop Chop Fin, winter is coming.

Think Snow!

[fin]

Dang, just went through these responses again and realized I left a few people hanging. Sorry for the delay. Answers....


Nils: My stupid question is: Since we know that a board works with a combination of longitudinal flex and torsion control ( among other things).. how do board torsion distribution works with a plate with its "pods" on the sides of the board, aka where the torsion distribution is critical. In other words: how does the plate manage to let the torsion freely "move" or react?

This is where the stiffness of the plate will come into play. But the bottom line is if you have an infinitely stiff plate (mounted on good hardware) essentially the board will NOT torsionally flex underneath your feet. A "softer" plate however, will allow a certain amount of twist below it. Is no torsional twist under the feet bad? Hard to say. As talked about a bunch this aspect removes the ability to "pedal" the board between the feet. But the conclusion has been for edge grip and stability it is a good thing. So honestly, I think it will come down to a style preference.

Also, I think of it this way. Look at it from the other direction. Yes, without a plate you can twist the board with your feet. But what is to say your are twisting in the right direction? Or in a way that the board was designed for? A plate works in reverse in that it also isolates the riders "influence" on the board thus letting the board, as you put it, "freely move or react".

One thing I can tell you is that a plate lets that board flex in a VERY nature and uninhibited arc in the longitudinal direction. I think the huge gains just in this outweigh any (if there are any) negatives from no torsional twist under the feet.

continued....

[fin]

RCrobar: I wondered if the lower TD2 assembly was now a redundant part of the binding because of the suspension plate?

Agree, the plate does act as a huge suspension system now. So the ability for the binding to absorb is not as necessary. However, the E-rings on the TD series does also give you some movement in all directions so it can have a benefit there.


RCrobar: How does the selection of the traditional 4x4 vs UPM Pattern affect the torsion distribution of a board? At first glance it would seem that the 4x4 plate mounting system would have less affect on a board's torsion distribution when compared to the UPM pattern. Is this a correct assumption?

Hard to conclude the difference right now as it is all pretty much speculation. With little time under the feet of free carvers this coming season will be VERY telling on questions like this. My assumption is this: the 4 hole version will have a slightly smaller foot-print and be directly more to the center of the board. This will allow the board to twist more under this hardware (small area). The UPM version is spread out more along the width of the board and will influence the twist quite a bit. So I predict the UPM version will give you more power from the board into the snow but the 4-hole one will allow for more twisting of the board and possibly better low to medium speed control. Once again, we need to do some comparing this winter.

If it has not become painfully obvious with all this chat on plates, we are just not sure how they will perform for the recreational carver. As Sean pointed out, the Mnt. Bike market figured out that full suspension bikes, all be it heavier, actually make riding easier on the body and typically more enjoyable (as a biker I agree with this). Maybe plates will be the same for us? I honestly don't know. But in a few months we are about to find out!

[SEJ]

So Fin, will there be a new run of Bomber bags with even more volume than the latest ones?
Board + plate + TD SIs (6* rear). My bags are already stretched pretty tight without the plate.
Gonna start looking like a water ski bag.

[Erik J]

I'll probably be laughed at for suggesting this but would a cut out to act as a carry handle to the board/plate be possible? A simple oval shape should do.

[110/220V]

:-|



:-/



:-O no.

[Erik J]

I reread my post today...yes, it is stupid...but I'll leave it there anyway for others to mock me

[Shred Gruumer]

No reason it can't have a carry handle cut out..

And a Bottle opener...!!

And a Tool Holder.

Cup holder..wait I got one of those..

The Gizmo Plate system.. Swiss Army Plate!!

RSS

[trailertrash]

Fin should add a allen wrench holder, that would be useful.

[jp1]

Shred, now don't be picking on the Gizmo's :D.

[nekdut]

Seriously, bring the bottle opener back! :)

[Michelle]

I know everyone is anxious about the new plate As Are WE, but we are still working on the pricing. PLEASE be patient with us, we will get it out to you just as soon as we have it, as well as the ability to order.

We want to sell it to you, so we're not going to hide it or keep it secret only to give it away if you call or email :) Feel free to call or email with OTHER questions about the new plate system.

[nekdut]

So uh.. will it be even possible to get this in time for Christmas? :)

[Michelle]

How about New Years Eve?

[nekdut]

Ok fine. Ordered! :D


Shipping was pretty steep though. Is this going to be a big box or quite heavy?