OT--Getting new/used car

[Carp]

looking for opinions. Married 2 kids (4 and 2). Have Honda minivan, looking for comfortable car for long commute. Choices:

Saab 9-3 convertible
Saab 9-5 aero (sedan/wagon)
Acura RL/TL
Volkswagon Passat
Audi A6
Volvo S80/V70/xc
Mazda 6

Obviously want reliable, comfortable, and good gas mileage.

Let the opinions fly.

[bschurman]

Of all those options I think that I would get the Mazda 6 wagon myself. I have an Audi S4 Avant and I love it but you said that you wanted reliablility so I would stay away from anything but the Japanese cars. In my experience they don't have the hosepower of the American and Euro cars but they have the reliability and gas milage.

->Ben

[knoch]

i'd go with the saab, just because they're fun and they look nice

[ethanpt]

my coworker had a saab and spent on average 300 dollars per month in repairs over a 2 year period. the parts for swedish cars are super pricey

[UK2TX2CA]

Avoid the SAAB's, I had a 9000 CSE as company car and the maintenance costs my company had to fork out for it were horrible! Odd things too, like it would eat batteries, it killed ( dead first cell ) 3 in 5 months and they it stopped doing it! The company was glad when the lease expired as they could just walk away from it....It was a great car to drive, roomy, comfortable, fast, great handling ( for the size of car ) and had fairly good gas mileage as long as you kept off the turbo....

Since Ford now owns Volvo & Mazda I would steer clear of them too! I have a Ford and they are not kidding when they say that Ford stands for Fix Or Repair Daily .... Found On Road Dead....etc

I'll second the motion to consider Subaru. My wifes 2000 Subaru Outback Wagon has been a good runner, other than routine maintenance items ( oil, tires etc ) we have had no additional expenses....it runs well, is very comfortable and has enough room for a couple of cases in the rear.

[Hugh]

Personally, I would avoid Saab and VW.

Possibles Volvo, Audi and Mazda.

For sure, Acura TL (four doors, right?).

I had a 4 cylinder 92 Camry that lasted a long time. Enough pep with economy...

[Art]

Just bouhgt a Honda Pilot and we like it alot. It will be used on long trips and around town. So far it gets 20 mpg avg in the city/hwy trips we have taken. I used to work on Saabs and can testify to their lack of worthiness. No problems yet, but a few rattles and such. hondapilot.org has info if you are interested.hondapilot.org

[AK in PA]

I love my Dodge Dakota Quad Cab. Plenty of room in the back seat for kids or adults. Plus I have a boatload of room in the bed for "stuff". I have a fiberglass cap on mine so I can lock everything in it. Of course, being a 4x4, it's great in the snow. I have the 4.7L V8 w/ a manual transmission and average ~15-16 mpg mixed driving.

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Art
Just bouhgt a Honda Pilot and we like it alot. It will be used on long trips and around town. So far it gets 20 mpg avg in the city/hwy trips we have taken. I used to work on Saabs and can testify to their lack of worthiness. No problems yet, but a few rattles and such. hondapilot.org has info if you are interested.hondapilot.org

LOL! What color? We just bought a silver one... We like it a lot - especially the DVD player and wireless headphones that keep the kids quiet on the trip to the mountain!

If you see a silver Pilot with matching Thule box and an "Alpental' sticker, you know at least one hardbooter is around.
:D

Thomas

[Erik J]

I don't have personal experience with VW but 5 friends with VW's (jetta'a and GTI's) had constant problems with their cars. I will never buy one after seeing their problems.

As for the Ford reputation mentioned earlier, I have a '97 Explorer and have never had a single problem with it - I've changed the oil and thats it - nothing else. I hear a lot of people talk smack but my experience has been nothing but lucky.

My wife just started driving a 99 volvo s70, it's only been 5 days buut so far the car seems great - a little shy on power though.

[Derf]

I'd go with a Mazda 6 Wagon or Hatchback. Mazda is VERY reliable (contrary to Ford, even if they own them). It's less expensive to buy and to maintain than the others you mentionned and it is more reliable. Both have lots of storage space. I drive 1992 Mazda 323 and it just won't die (like all the others I see around town, and they are a LOT considering they stopped producing them in 1994). My father owns a 2003 Mazda Protégé5 and he is very satisifed, travelled a lot with it in the last year.

As for the 4wd argument, I think with good winter tires (I have Pirellis, my father has Michelins) and good driving, front wheel drive is enough (and I think the Mazda 6 has traction control, I'll have to double check).

Derf

[P06781]

Dont forget about subaru. They redesigned the legacy line this year and they are nice . I bought an 05 Legacy GT wagon....AWD...2.5liter turbo= fast & sporty yet reasonable mpg for 26k.

http://legacygt.com/

Jim

[Comrade]

Comrade's dad here (he told me about this thread and said to post).... We bought a Volvo XC70 Cross Country a year ago and it is a terrific car. We also have a Subaru wagon, there is no comparison between the two. Yeah, the Subaru gets us around in a tinny, buzzy sort of way, but the XC does it in style and comfort.

Things we like about the Volvo:
1. Exceptionally smooth riding, but not like driving a waterbed. It still handles.
2. Very quiet inside.
3. The first 10K miles have been flawless.
4. Sophisticated Haldex AWD system.
5. That loveable, quirky Volvo look.
6. Great ergonomics.
7. Cool drivetrian: 5 cylinder turbo charged motor with a 5 speed automatic. It's even pretty quick.
8. 23 MPG average for a very capable 3800lb car. 28 on the freeway. That's amazing.
9. We haven't experienced its safety virtues yet, but we hear they are the best.

If we were ga-jillionaires, and cost was no object, this is still the car I would drive.

[nils]

We rented the XC70 last winter for the SES and apreciated the great snow driving ability ( snowfalls...) and all the quality mentionned above.... To my euro eyes the fuel consumption sucks thu... Its considered a great engine over here ( the 2.5T) but the worst in terms of consumption in the Volvo line....
Most of the models sold in europe use the common rail D-5 engine ( turbo charged diesel ) that takes like 35 mpg with quiet sound and great torque..

Would i have to choose a car in your list it would be an A6 audi station wagon (quattro of course), but the volvo trunk is bigger and your quiver needs room!!

N.

[Art]

Thomas, look for thr the dark grey (they call it something or the other green) with the IAFF sticker in the left rear upper window. we opted out of the DVD package and will go with a portable model. Right now the Brio and Thomas catalogs do the trick. No matching box on the top yet but if you see this car with a red Packasport box on top it's me for sure. right now all we can afford are a couple a cans o' Krylon to make it match (the box that is;) As for VW, I have owned them for many years and have never had any problems. The 95 golf is still going strong at 79k. BTW, didn't you have a Rover?

[Eric]

I gotta step up for VW here.
We are 3.5 years into my wife's, and have yet to have
a single problem with it. Routine oil changes only.
Considering how my wife drives, that's saying something.
And the VR6s run like a bear.
I've owned an Audi, and a Porsche in the past,
and I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get another VW.
If I had the cash, I would get a Touareg TDI.
5800lbs, 0-60 @ 7.5 sec, 23mpg.
That's only my $0.02, I'm not really a car guy.

[nils]

No wonder the TD2 is so expensive if you have a Touareg !
Damn!

;)

Nils

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney

When they shake all the bugs out, watch out BMW, Rover, etc.

LOL! I'm no engineer but I would take my 1990 RangeRover County with 100k miles over any Touareg when it comes to anything resembling serious offroad. Even without the upgrades I've added.

Same with the '96 Discovery and '97 Defender I used to own. They are just in a different class than the VW when it comes to turning off the asphalt. I would be less likely to make such a strong statement about the new DiscoII due to the rear overhang and the new RangeRover because anyone who takes an $80K car offroading is either too crazy or too rich for my understanding...:p

[P06781]

I hoping for better mpg than 18, the epa range is 18-24 on the sticker. Like any car, if you are pedal heavy milage will suffer.

Most people that have this car are doing in 22-25 range for normal driving.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3155


Originally posted by Jack Michaud
I love the look of the new Legacy, but Consumer Reports said the GT gets an average of 18mpg. That's unacceptible, imo, and I previously really wanted this car. The base Legacy is the same car but with 80 less horses and better milage. How bout an Acura TSX?

[C5 Golfer]

You don't mention a price range but assuming you might want value and not new.

One place to look would be the Lexus Certified pre-owned line. If you want mileage and comfort and superb reliability go with a used ES 300 or 330 -- if you buy a certified pre-owned from Lexus, it come with a 100K warranty-- I did say "comes with" the car from Lexus. Not one of those $1500 warranties you buy and then it never covers anything that goes wrong. My girlfriend has a lease returned ES300 perfect in and out- paid $28K for it and it is like having a new car except it comes with more warranty than a new one.

Then if you want mobility go with the RX300 or 330 - I have 63K on mine and never had anything done except service.

If you want speed and great mileage go with a C5 Corvette -, Mileage might suprise you-- 26mpg on the highway plus will get you there in comfort and quick. Damn quick I might add. Very reliable too.

Additional advantage of Lexus or Corvette - resale value is quite high..:)

[Justin A.]

I drive a Saab 9-3 Aero, and I absolutley love it. I reccomend either the 9-5 Aero Sedan, or a BMW 330x. Both are AWESOME cars and will serve you well. I've had the 9-3 for about 3 months now and havent had a problem yet.
-Justin
________
Toyota Probox Specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Probox)

[skategoat]

For me, the happiest day of 2004 was the day I got rid of my 1999 Audi A6 Avant. What a piece of junk. I'd give details but I'm in therapy to try to put it past me.

As for the VW, it's basically the same. Nice when new but everything starts to break at 3-4 years and costs you an arm and leg to fix.

If you want reliability, I'd go with the Acura. Can't beat Honda for quality. Owned 2 Acuras and 1 Honda in my life and loved them all.

Older Bimmers ('98 and older 3 series) are great deals right now. Superb cars. Handle like a Coiler race board.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by Carp
looking for opinions. Married 2 kids (4 and 2). Have Honda minivan, looking for comfortable car for long commute. Choices:

Saab 9-3 convertible
Saab 9-5 aero (sedan/wagon)
Acura RL/TL
Volkswagon Passat
Audi A6
Volvo S80/V70/xc
Mazda 6

Obviously want reliable, comfortable, and good gas mileage.

Let the opinions fly.

For family and fun, get Mazda 6 or if you can put more money then Acura TL.

Mazda 6 has enourmous cargo space and when rear sits are folded the space is flat. The interior should perfectly fit 2 adults and 2 kids. You can get one V6 for not much more than $20000 (US)

As far as Acura TL you will get very powerful car with beautiful styling. All things like leather, moonroof and many more are standard in this car. I believe that the only significant option is navigation system. The down side of TL is that leather wears out quickly and can get damaged relatively easily which is sad as kids usually do not care what they are doing. That's from review by one of parents, but you can try edmunds.com and several other places for to hear that for yourself from owners. Anyway TL is way over $30000.

But why not Honda Accord? It is as spacious as TL and has excellent handling (friend of mine has now two of them... bought this year). They are cheaper as well.


Anyway I was considering TL, Accord and BMW3 series. Since I do not have kids and the car is basically for me to drive (and I prefer real performance for affordable price with REAL shift transmission) I ended up with BMW 325i. Now shopping for Winter wheels... but I already found some wheels and Dunlop WinterSports M3 tires:-)

Have fun with looking for a car. It took me about 2-3 years to make up my mind to get beemer :-( Now I am not going to look back at other cars :-) It is that different piece of car, but everybody has different sense of taste and needs;-)

[Maciek]

Originally posted by Justin A.
I drive a Saab 9-3 Aero, and I absolutley love it. I reccomend either the 9-5 Aero Sedan, or a BMW 330x. Both are AWESOME cars and will serve you well. I've had the 9-3 for about 3 months now and havent had a problem yet.
-Justin


BMW 330 is overrated. Just any 330 except 330i with performance package which is a 6 speed shift stick and has boosted engine. Anyway, what do you expect from 330 if you take 4x4? If so then perhaps it would be better to get X3 with that 3liter engine.

I have seen some beemer owners who do not seem to know why they selected the 330 any model,. They simply can't use that car, but they certainly thought that they could show off. the most funny thing was that guy who told story about his wife driving 330i and regretting that she did not get 330x. Well, even that car you need to know how to drive, but once you learn rear wheel drive and get (SERIOUSLY!) winter whels the car can run as good as many SUV's. that just requires some drivers experience and proper setup for winter conditions. 4x4 will not rescue from dumb mistakes and lack of driving skills. That guy was wqarning me and I was laughing at him since it is not my foiirst rear wheel drive and I alread spun such car on highways many years ago. Today my driving is just another story (as I am appraoching perhaps some other level... ) I do not know... I drive simulator of many cars with whole physics of racing. I spin a lot and those simulations are realistic since I modelled my own car and it seems to have quite similar feel. We will see... I am getting better:-) ... and definitely can do a lot more in 325i than many drivers with more powerfull and 4x4 cars. Perhaps I am missing a lot... but slowly I am getting there.


By the way BMW 3 series are small cars. I would not recommend them as base car for 4 people family. The cargo space is the weakes part of this car. I don't have idea how one could fit two kids stuff in 10 cubic feet trunk.

[Carp]

Keep them coming guys. I've always owned Saab's since I was 17 and absolutely love the way they drive and the nearly endless ammenities. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck. The down side is they depreciate quickly, which can be good when buying but when selling stincks. I've had a 1995 9000 cse that I had to put a new tranny in at 125k and now I have to replace the A/C compressor, but aside from that just normal wear and tear brakes, and such. I've had an 89 900 that ran great for 4 years and then something went wrong with the exhaust and no mechanic I took it to could figure it out, so I dumped it and went with a 89 9000 cd and that car ran flawlessly, however did get some rust damage on the drivers side door from the salt we use in Wisconsin. I've been test driving all sorts of car and keep going back to the Saab 9-5 aero. My concerns are reliability from JD Power, Edmonds, etc. With GM owning them has reliability improved or gotten worse? I'm not sure. I'm not rushing into anything but wanted to say thanks for all the great feed back and I hope it continues.

I'm happy for all those that have already gotten out this season and ridden. I'm hoping mother nature will get winter here early this year.

[Derf]

2 notes I'd like to add:

German cars like VW and BMW (and I could add Saab, not german but european) are well built, well designed, but unreliable. Sure, they last a long time, but with how many visits to the dealer or mechanic? All VW owners I know are changing for other brands because of reliability issues (tired of going to the dealer for recurring electrical issues and so on), and I'm speaking of owners of recent models (2000 and more recent). I don't know enough BMW owners, but what I can tell, owners of these cars (VW, BMW, Saab, etc) are attached to these car more for the brand name or sentimental reasons than reliability. And I repeat: quality of construction and durability is not the same as reliability.

As for SUVs, in my opinion, very few people need them, if any. They consume way too much gas and are dangerous for OTHERS on the roads. Sure, the eternal arguments of snow, cargo space and "off road" keep coming back.
1- For the snow, a front wheel drive car with good snow tires and careful driving will do the trick. If you want more control, you have models with traction control and/or 4wd (like Subarus for this). No need to buy something Categorized as a "truck" by the EPA to get around town and go on the highway, cars are for that.
2- For cargo space, you have several wagons have enough interior cargo space. SUVs don't have as much interior cargo space as people would expect by looking at the outside. The Mazda 6 and Subaru Legacy (or Outback) are good examples.
3- Many people consider going places with gravel roads or dirt roads as going "off road". Regular cars have enough ground clearance, but not all, low suspensions and aerodynamic skirts being quite popular with even sedans now. I know some will say "I do real off road" like in Bob's picture, but do you really need to go these places? And if you do it for fun or leisure (which I don't agree with), most modern SUVs have independant suspensions, for city and highway driving and I'm no expert, but from what I read, independant suspension really s*cks off road, a rigid axle is better (or something similar, I'm no expert as I said). That's what Jeeps [T-Y-insert letter here]J and Range Rovers are for.

Derf

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney
Fin has bags of money laying around the shop. He tossed a couple to me and told me to buy something nice for myself. :D



Thomas,

Don't underestimate the 'Reg. It'll more than keep up with any Rover. Spend some time looking at the specs and look at some of the pics on the web.

Hi Bob. I like the Reg and thought about buying one when we got our Pilot. So I have looked at the specs, but I've been driving Rovers offroad since '96. However your photo actually proves my point - the Reg doesn't have the wheel articulation to hang with a coilsprung Rover on serious terrain. Look at the lack of wheel drop in your photo.

I may be wrong, but I just don't see the Rg having the suspension flexibility shown in this photo. Look at the angle of the stuffed rear compared the each of the left wheels:
http://www.houstonlandroverclub.com/photos/moab_2004/DSCF0802.jpg

Articulation in the other direction to help keep the power on the ground:
http://www.houstonlandroverclub.com/photos/gilmer_nov2003/disk2/DSCF0017.jpg

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Derf
[B

As for SUVs, in my opinion, very few people need them, if any.
Derf [/B]

Cut off the 'if any' and I'd mostly agree with you...

...and I've owned 8 SUV's in the last 10 years, usually more than one at once. However, we tried sedans and wagons for the 'family car': a BMW M3 4door, Volvo T-5 and Volvo XC as recent examples. The BMW was fun but didn't have the cargo space. The Volvos had more cargo space but were always in the shop. So we switched back to SUV's for the 'family car'. Tried to buy a hybrid but they were unobtanium or being marked up $5K over msrp! The Pilot we got gets better gas mileage seats three more people and has 2cuft more cargo space than any of the wagons we owned(cheaper too). Crossover SUV's aren't that much different than comparable wagons these days.

The Rover doesn't get near as much trail time since I stopped whitewater kayaking but I can't bring myself to get rid of it. It mostly sleeps in the garage and leaks oil... My daily ride is a 2002 Eurovan camper that I actually drive boarding when the roads aren't crazy - it's nice being able to gear up inside...

T.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Derf

As for SUVs, in my opinion, very few people need them, if any. They consume way too much gas and are dangerous for OTHERS on the roads.

And they are dangerous to their occupants. They'll roll over and crush you if you ever get them sideways, and ladder frames are notorious for transmitting impact to the cabin - no crumple zones.

Get an SUV if you want one, but don't tell me it's for safety.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Bob Jenney
On the safety front, one of the big selling points of the Touareg is it's small car friendly crumple zones. The car is specifically engineered to be safer for other cars on the road.

If it weighs anything like it's cousin the Porsche Cayenne I can't see how it's safe for other cars. That's a 5000 pound vehicle.

[Mellow Yellow]

(EDIT ~ I now have an "SUV"... D'oh)

Get a MINI...!

Can’t tell you how many yahoo's in SUV's I've passed in the ditches of many a snow covered road....

..Of course most people think that with 4 wheel they are invincible...:rolleyes:

oh.. I have nothing against SUV’s...

[P06781]

Wasnt there one one these SUV vs Car vs motobike vs bicyle vs walking vs sitting on your ass typing on the computer threads from last year about this time........ :o

Jim

[Mellow Yellow]

I think there was... maybe it had to deal with tires though....:confused:

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
And they are dangerous to their occupants. They'll roll over and crush you if you ever get them sideways, and ladder frames are notorious for transmitting impact to the cabin - no crumple zones.

Get an SUV if you want one, but don't tell me it's for safety.

LOL Jack. This post looks pretty funny next to your avatar.

Damn, I'm jealous of you guys with bikes. I'm "not allowed" or so I've been told...;)

T.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by thomas_m
LOL Jack. This post looks pretty funny next to your avatar.

I don't tell people I bought a motorcycle for the added safety! (and I don't strap a baby-seat to the back either!)

[boogieman]

my parents had al 3 of the range rovers the one on the picture above the one from a fuw years aggo and now they have the new one if you want something that will cost you a lot of money becouse theres always something braking buy a range rover also my sister works in a range rover dealer so she can know really really bad choice!
if you want my opinion id buy a peugeot if you can get those in the us i have a 607 its as good as a german car and a lot cheaper mine has 143000 km in 3 years now and i didnt have any problem with it and it looks pretty nice to (mine is black with 18 inch alloy wheels)
Also i had a peugeot 406 coupe before wich is a superb car looks great verry good engine i had the 2.2 hdi 150 hp did 1000 km with a tank (75 liter) and it holds to the road like a train on the rails really awsome car and of course i had no problems at all with it 216000 in km 4 years
anyway check out your peugeot dealer great cars for great prices
otherwise go for the japs if you dont want any problems (im in the automobil industrie i know what im talking about)

[boogieman]

and if you have enough cash id go for this baby
2 plus 2 if you want to, i started playing with the lottery since ive seen this car

[boogieman]

i cant attach this picture to my other post so i make a new one sorry for that
buy a peugeot!

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
And they are dangerous to their occupants. They'll roll over and crush you if you ever get them sideways, and ladder frames are notorious for transmitting impact to the cabin - no crumple zones.

Get an SUV if you want one, but don't tell me it's for safety.

Don't let the poor engineered American SUVs spoil it for all -- do a rough check of safety of crash or rollover of a Japanese SUV like the Lexus RX and compare it to an Exploder, Blazer or Jeep. I would feel in danger in one of those (Exploder, Blazer or Jeep) rattle death traps. I drive my RX sensibly and within a reasonable speed and feel quite safe compared to many others. No wonder many are still trying to copy it- Chevy, Ford, Chrysler and more to the point Cadillac SRX, even looks like one and uses RX in its name but Lexus keeps one step ahead as always.