Donek's 2010-2011 prototyping

[Donek]

We're at it again this year at the Basin. Fin and Mark Kress have both graciously offered their services in testing and providing feedback. Michael Pukas was there and Tony from Red Oak Development came along as well. We tested two new boards yesterday.

http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/Other/random-stuff/DSC8798/832516057_SZT3d-XL.jpg

As always I'm trying to make things indestructible, so one was a confirmation that a variation on our existing metal layup felt the same. Destructive testing indicates it is a bit stronger.
http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/photos/815857725_A8Xqg-S.jpg

The other prototype was the first in moving the VSR (variable sidecut radius) technology and decambering to fiberglass constructions.

http://www.seanmartinphoto.com/Other/random-stuff/DSC8807/832516221_RsyXU-XL.jpg

Both tests went very well. I'll be endeavoring to produce 4 more prototypes for next week which will hopefully answer a number of questions that were raised as a result of yesterdays testing. The snow was awesome.

[Steve Prokopiw]

rocks!

[Snowman]

The other prototype was the first in moving the VSR (variable sidecut radius) technology and decambering to fiberglass constructions.

.

Oh yeah!

[Donek]

rocks!

That base was composed of stuff that has been cluttering my shelf for 3 years. It did get quite a reception though.

Garbage in = art. ;)

[JK moscraciun]

That base was composed of stuff that has been cluttering my shelf for 3 years. It did get quite a reception though.

Garbage in = art. ;)

:lol:
+1 on that crazy base graphics!


now you just raised the bar for me :D

JK

[bobdea]

That base was composed of stuff that has been cluttering my shelf for 3 years. It did get quite a reception though.

Garbage in = art. ;)

yeah, honestly, I'd request that base, it's hot.

[Donek]

I headed up to A-basin again today and met up with Fin, Tony Stoughton, and Michael Pukas for more testing. We keep moving forward.

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Fin's toy was a huge eye opener.

[Michael Pukas]

The new glass boards are something else! The first board was quite stiff, and I only got to ride it the 2nd week of testing. During the 1st week, conditions were very good, and the guys that rode the stiff glass board loved it. The 2nd week conditions had deteriorated significantly to ice at the top and slush at the bottom. The stiff metal board was a bit brutal in crud, but I can see were it would be great on hero snow! The 2nd glass board was softer flexing, and that was very nice in variable conditions. very metal-esque with a good amount of pop in turn transitions. The new school shapes with old school build tech works well!

Sean's new metals keep getting better and better! The new lay-up design and stiffer flex patterns are coming together. The shape and profiles are being refined. If you thought Donek's '10 metal boards were good, just wait until next year!

Sean's been working hard on designing shapes for each type of construction that compliment the material characteristics. The metal and glass shapes are not exact copies of each other - they have slight differences. The new glass boards are not as forgiving as metal, but have a lot of the old school character that some of us miss in metal. Personally, I'd pay the difference for metal, but I know these glass boards will appeal to many.

[Snowman]

but I know these glass boards will appeal to many.

I think we can tag it a "mans" board. Michael, you better stick with the metal.:eplus2:

Think Snow!

[heroshmero]

That base was composed of stuff that has been cluttering my shelf for 3 years. It did get quite a reception though.

Garbage in = art. ;)

+1

Great base graphics!

[Hans]

Behind those graphics is some new Bomber stuff for sure where Snowman has to talk about it! :AR15firin

[Snowman]

Behind those graphics is some new Bomber stuff for sure where Snowman has to talk about it! :AR15firin

Sorry, I have been sworn to secrecy. Loose lips sink ships.

Think Snow!

[Hans]

Sorry, I have been sworn to secrecy. Loose lips sink ships.

Think Snow!

I just tried...

[Donek]

No prototype testing this week.

I've spent the last week pouring over mathematic equations and developing a tool for modeling/analyzing decamber profiles. While I don't have any boards to show for this weeks work, I do have a much greater understanding of decamber shapes and how different aspects influence the board. There's a lot more to it than just bend it a bit here and there and you've got your shape. I've developed a plan of attack and will be back on snow some time next week with 3 more prototypes and hopefully a quantum leap forward. I'd like to thank Todd Brown for being an awesome sounding board and helping me wade through a lot of complicated concepts.

[kieran]

sort of an idle thought and associated question.
if you were putting a VSR on a board, for example 12.25-14-13, is it likely to be 'optimal' to have the setback centered at the 14 radius point?

[Donek]

sort of an idle thought and associated question.
if you were putting a VSR on a board, for example 12.25-14-13, is it likely to be 'optimal' to have the setback centered at the 14 radius point?

I suppose it would depend upon where those curves sit on the board. You might choose to break it into 3 equal sections or you might choose to have the different radii ocupy different ratios of the effective edge. As a result, there is not a definite answer. When running variable sidecuts (mine vary continually), I usually define the waist as the narrowest point on the board and center hole pattern there. The flex is referenced off this point as well, but it becomes necessary to work with further offsets to make it function properly with the sidecuts. Positioning such points requires experience, understanding, and frequently experimentation.

[Dr D]

Has any thought been put into matching the VSR to the flex characteristics of the board itself? In other words perhaps some of the factors that require dampening may not be so prevelant in a board that flexes at the same rate as the side cut variation.

[KingCrimson]

Has any thought been put into matching the VSR to the flex characteristics of the board itself?

Apparently Renntigers have had this for years and years.

You might have to specify what you mean by flex rate..

[Donek]

Has any thought been put into matching the VSR to the flex characteristics of the board itself? In other words perhaps some of the factors that require dampening may not be so prevelant in a board that flexes at the same rate as the side cut variation.

I have altered the flex patterns to work more effectively with the variable sidecut. Perhaps I'm not getting your point though. Maybe you can explain it further.

[Miltie]

Hey Sean,

Glad to see you are continuously improving your board designs and construction methods. Sounds interesting and looks fun!

Please give us an update on the results of the glass construction prototypes. Curious to see how they worked out. Really like 2 metals boards (1 custom and 1 stock from Bomber) that I purchased last year. Spent many years on glass boards in the past so it would be interesting to compare the "feel" of the glass with the new shape.

Need to replace a broken board in the fleet so might be interested to try a glass variant if you give them the knod.

Thanks for your hard work and keep us posted.

Take care, Tom

[Donek]

Hey Sean,

Glad to see you are continuously improving your board designs and construction methods. Sounds interesting and looks fun!

Please give us an update on the results of the glass construction prototypes. Curious to see how they worked out. Really like 2 metals boards (1 custom and 1 stock from Bomber) that I purchased last year. Spent many years on glass boards in the past so it would be interesting to compare the "feel" of the glass with the new shape.

Need to replace a broken board in the fleet so might be interested to try a glass variant if you give them the knod.

Thanks for your hard work and keep us posted.

Take care, Tom

I think most of my questions have been answered on the glass VSR with decamber boards. I will be offering them next season.

It looks like I'm up testing metals again on Monday. Thursdays weather didn't look too promising.

[Dr D]

I have altered the flex patterns to work more effectively with the variable sidecut. Perhaps I'm not getting your point though. Maybe you can explain it further.


seems to me that a board that flexes more than say its overly long sidecut would not ride as well as one that had a sidecut matched to its flex. IF you carry that over to a VSR the flex pattern required to "match" the sidecut would become somewhat more complicated. I am not sure I am getting my point across here. think airplanes. you have to coordinate a turn when flying a conventional plane. the rudder movements have to match the stick in order to carry out a nice level turn. the flex in the board and the sidecut contribute two different inputs into how the board acts and turns. IF we could coordinate the two we would be onto something.

We know that sidecut contributes to our turns and turning radius and we know that flex patterns in the board do the same. IT stands to reason that a board with a sidecut tighter in the nose and longer in the tail would need a flex pattern that was a match in order to carry out the smoothest turn with the least amount of rider input. therefore starting with a core and matching the sidecut to the core or starting with the sidecut and matching the core to the sidecut would be an evolutionary step in rider comfort and control.

[Donek]

seems to me that a board that flexes more than say its overly long sidecut would not ride as well as one that had a sidecut matched to its flex. IF you carry that over to a VSR the flex pattern required to "match" the sidecut would become somewhat more complicated. I am not sure I am getting my point across here. think airplanes. you have to coordinate a turn when flying a conventional plane. the rudder movements have to match the stick in order to carry out a nice level turn. the flex in the board and the sidecut contribute two different inputs into how the board acts and turns. IF we could coordinate the two we would be onto something.

We know that sidecut contributes to our turns and turning radius and we know that flex patterns in the board do the same. IT stands to reason that a board with a sidecut tighter in the nose and longer in the tail would need a flex pattern that was a match in order to carry out the smoothest turn with the least amount of rider input. therefore starting with a core and matching the sidecut to the core or starting with the sidecut and matching the core to the sidecut would be an evolutionary step in rider comfort and control.

This is already being done. We have a longer sidecut radius in the tail and a stiffer flex to match. This is a basic explanation, but it is the basis for making such a thing work.

[Dr D]

great

[Emdee406]

Thanks for keeping us up to date with developments....very exciting!

[ice]

I was fortunate enough to put some runs in on three new Doneks on Sunday and came away saying WOW. Sean is really getting it figured out! The absolute lastest build is way beyond what I had expected.

BTW I'm about 180-185 lbs., fairly aggressive, some race experience, 20 or so seasons carving 50-100+ days per season. Normally ride GS type boards 180cm+. Currently riding Hardbooters Prior Pretty Good Stick, '10 Track 700's, TD3 SI.

In pretty good snow conditions this board (184 GS) did everything I asked of it: I layed it over for smooth turns on some fairly steep stuff, I jammed it into pretty tight radius turns on the same stuff, I rode it hard on the nose, way back on the tail, you name I tried it. This board handled it all with good feedback and no nose fold or push. I plan on adding one of these (probably as the everyday board) for next season. Great work Mr. Martin!

[big mario]

I was fortunate enough to put some runs in on three new Doneks on Sunday and came away saying WOW. Sean is really getting it figured out! The absolute lastest build is way beyond what I had expected.

BTW I'm about 180-185 lbs., fairly aggressive, some race experience, 20 or so seasons carving 50-100+ days per season. Normally ride GS type boards 180cm+. Currently riding Hardbooters Prior Pretty Good Stick, '10 Track 700's, TD3 SI.

In pretty good snow conditions this board (184 GS) did everything I asked of it: I layed it over for smooth turns on some fairly steep stuff, I jammed it into pretty tight radius turns on the same stuff, I rode it hard on the nose, way back on the tail, you name I tried it. This board handled it all with good feedback and no nose fold or push. I plan on adding one of these (probably as the everyday board) for next season. Great work Mr. Martin!

Trust me, if Kevin is adding one to his quiver... then you need one too
mario

[Donek]

I met Mark Kress, Michael Pukas, and Lowell Hart up at A-basin today for more test riding. While last seasons prototyping had a definite direction, this season, my goal was simply to try to find a way to make them better. The modifications I've been doing with the camber profiles has really paid off. We had the break through I was hoping for. By my estimations the new camber shapes are as important a change as the variable sidecuts. The performance characteristics are remarkable and contribute to the performance of the board more than I ever expected. This latest round was a huge success. I'll continue with some other concepts that have been floating around over the last season and be up to test in another week.

I'd like to thank everyone who has helped in testing these boards. The input is invaluable. We have a few more weeks, so with luck we can make further improvements before the season ends.

[Donek]

Lowell was kind enough to bust out his video camera a few times today. He sent over some stills from that filming.

Michael - we had a few minutes of blue sky
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-2/857355959_vjC2Z-O.jpg

http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-11/857353937_E2w2g-O.jpg

Me
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-13/857354365_GE786-O.jpg

http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-5/857357902_VPfgT-O.jpg

Before you ask: this is an ASTM test for tail durability
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-24/857356868_ydzUP-O.jpg

Mark
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-20/857356137_xvpQX-O.jpg

Ahem... Doing some comparative analysis
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/random-stuff/Test-25/857357134_xLpJF-O.jpg

[Snowman]

I think that we all had a favorite today. Did some comparisons on different metal thicknesses which provided quite different ride charcteristics with a very minimal difference in metal thickness; and, also some more experimentation on with rocker design and placement which provided the biggest breakthrough of the day. Sean explained in detail the difference to me but looses me with big math and unlaymen friendly verbage but wahoooooo, it ate up every thing we could toss at it. Conditions ranged from hero on top to nasty, refrozen marbled funkiness at bottom and our stand out didn't waver. It amazes me how what seems to be extremely minute changes in disign yields such incredible results in ride quality and charcteristics. Seans enthusiasm is paying off!

Think Snow!

[~tb]

Based on how much you guys are loving the new decamber profile, I am bumming that I couldn't make the trip out to test with you all.

Sean, when is the next time you are heading up?

I might just have to look if there are any last minute deals on air fare!

-Todd

[Donek]

Based on how much you guys are loving the new decamber profile, I am bumming that I couldn't make the trip out to test with you all.

Sean, when is the next time you are heading up?

I might just have to look if there are any last minute deals on air fare!

-Todd

It is likely Monday or Tuesday of next week. I have put together a list of what needs to be done next, and I have a list of 5 boards. Two of which are really targeted at the racers training up there right now.

[Michael Pukas]

Just when we thought Sean's boards were good, they keep getting better!

As Sean posted earlier - a big thanks to Todd Brown for helping him out w/ the new rocker-camber profile.

It is truly amazing how some slight changes in curvature (w/ build, stiffness and side cut being the same) will have dramatic effects on ride characteristics! The board w/ the new profile was by far the favorite for all. It's the first board Sean's made that I like as much - and in some ways, more - than a Kessler/SG. There was a very silky smooth quality to it. Turn transitions were smooth with no hooking or jerkiness. The nose didn't fold. Easy to mix up turn shapes and sizes w/out getting locked in and stuck on the rail. Ate up the choppy crud w/out complaining or getting upset at all. Very predictable and confidence inspiring. The more I rode it, the more I liked it. Will be my go-to board for next year. :eek:

Well done Sean! Can't wait to see what's next! :biggthump

[Michael Pukas]

PS - and if Ice likes it, that's a big deal. He never says anything good, bad or indifferent about any board. They're all just snowboards after all. ;)

[Donek]

Lowell sent over an edited version of the video.

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[pow4ever]

The board w/ the new profile was by far the favorite for all. It's the first board Sean's made that I like as much - and in some ways, more - than a Kessler/SG.

Hi Michael:

I really enjoy reading your review on SG. If it's not too much trouble can you elaborate on what you like more on the new donek compare to Kessler/SG?

Which shape/size did you demo?
Did you happen to tried sub plate with your kessler(hangel)/sg(vist)?

It's a great and exciting time for alpine snowboard. Just need to save my money for next season.

Thanks
David

[Michael Pukas]

Lowell sent over an edited version of the video.
Nice to see a new video of Sean - the last one we had was from quite a few years ago, and looked like it hurt. I still remember that - OUCH!!! :eek:

Great to see that a guy that builds boards also knows how to ride them! :biggthump

[Michael Pukas]

Hi Michael:

I really enjoy reading your review on SG. If it's not too much trouble can you elaborate on what you like more on the new donek compare to Kessler/SG?

Which shape/size did you demo?
Did you happen to tried sub plate with your kessler(hangel)/sg(vist)?

It's a great and exciting time for alpine snowboard. Just need to save my money for next season.

Thanks
David

Hey David - keep in mind I'm not the best rider (as you can prolly tell f/ the vids), and my opinions are not necessarily shared by everyone whose tested the boards.

All of the boards Sean's been making for testing have been 185. They're aimed at being direct competition for the reigning world cup boards, and then tweaking that design for the free-carve world.

The Kessler/SG boards are exceprional riding race boards. They both have a very smooth ride and are easy to control. But to ride them well you have to get on it. They like to go fast down hill, and not finish turns (the Kessler more-so than the SG) - that's what they are designed for. Sean's latest board design has the same buttery smooth ride feel, turn transition, speed and power but allows more control over the shape of the turn - especially towards the middle and end of the turn. More user friendly w/out sacrificing performance.

I have not riden my Kessler w/ a plate - really want to though.

Kudo's to Sean for really getting into the nitty-gritty of board design and construction. It's been really eye opening for all who've riden the boards to see how such small changes can have a big impact on the ride.

[kieran]

from the video, the board with the blue topsheet seems to have given the best looking turns. what was special about that one?

[Donek]

from the video, the board with the blue topsheet seems to have given the best looking turns. what was special about that one?

That could just be the luck of the good light. The upper half of the mountain was pretty good and just about anything looked good. It's the last pitch just before the lift that is typically the best judge of a boards abilities. The green board was, hands down, every ones favorite. This includes the guys who tested them at Loveland a couple days before we were at the Basin. That board has some significant, but subtle looking changes to the way I'm looking at and designing the camber and decamber profiles. We were all blown away by the impact of this alteration.

The blue board was the first in my work to shift from a .4mm titanal to .3mm. In the conditions at A-basin we found it diffuicult to control. The testers at Loveland felt it came in second to the new camber/decamber shape. I have a new version of it ready for testing tomorrow that hopefully addresses everyones needs.

I have 5 new boards waxed and ready for testing tomorrow. There is a good chance testing could continue on Thursday. I'll give an update tomorrow evening if I don't pass out from exhaustion the minute I walk through the door.

[Michael Pukas]

The green board was, hands down, every ones favorite. This includes the guys who tested them at Loveland a couple days before we were at the Basin. That board has some significant, but subtle looking changes to the way I'm looking at and designing the camber and decamber profiles. We were all blown away by the impact of this alteration.

The green board was the first in my work to shift from a .4mm titanal to .3mm. In the conditions at A-basin we found it diffuicult to control. The testers at Loveland felt it came in second to the new camber/decamber shape. I have a new version of it ready for testing tomorrow that hopefully addresses everyones needs.

Hey Sean - I thought the green board everyone liked had the .4mm metal, and it was the carbon-themed graphic blue board that used the .3mm metal w/ last year's camber-rocker profile. The two blue boards were identical except for metal thickness. The green board and the other blue board w/ the same graphic but in blue were the same construction & sidecut but different camber-rocker profile. Correct?

[Donek]

Hey Sean - I thought the green board everyone liked had the .4mm metal, and it was the carbon-themed graphic blue board that used the .3mm metal w/ last year's camber-rocker profile. The two blue boards were identical except for metal thickness. The green board and the other blue board w/ the same graphic but in blue were the same construction & sidecut but different camber-rocker profile. Correct?

Oops! I got distracted and didn't catch that. I've edited the last post and corrected the board colors I believe.

[Michael Pukas]

Oops! I got distracted and didn't catch that. I've edited the last post and corrected the board colors I believe.
:biggthump

[nekdut]

Hey Sean,

This isn't specifically regarding your new WC-level boards, but are you prototyping any tip/tail decamber into your softboot freestyle/freecarve boards yet? That seems like a niche you could easily fill. It seems many other manufacturers jumped onto the full rocker bandwagon and took away too much carving ability/turn initiation with their shapes.

[Snowman]

Rode the new batch of protos today, going in a couple of directions with race boards and more firendly high performance free ride boards. Small improvements through small changes every week. Don't know how much better it can get but are going to hopefully accomplish a couple of more rounds of testing before the season is over. Also, got to ride on a super duper new high tech wangle dangle that was really cool and allowed me to go insanely fast in uber comfort. Man it was fun, thats all I got to say about that.:D Basin is still riding very well with a bunch of snow on the way tonight.

Think Snow!

[Donek]

Hey Sean,

This isn't specifically regarding your new WC-level boards, but are you prototyping any tip/tail decamber into your softboot freestyle/freecarve boards yet? That seems like a niche you could easily fill. It seems many other manufacturers jumped onto the full rocker bandwagon and took away too much carving ability/turn initiation with their shapes.

We have done some work with this in our saber series this year. The glass prototyping that I did earlier will translate to some models and the new decamber technologies will be transitioned to pretty much all the softboot boards. You'll be seeing a lot of new things in next seasons boards (soft and hard)

[Michael Pukas]

Also, got to ride on a super duper new high tech wangle dangle that was really cool and allowed me to go insanely fast in uber comfort. Man it was fun, thats all I got to say about that.:D
Think Snow!
A little wangle in ur dangle makes everything better! :nono:

[Donek]

I met of with the crew again yesterday (Fin included). The testing went really well. We are getting very close to finalizing everything. Lowell took a bunch of video yesterday and will hopefully have an edited version ready soon. We're getting closer on the .3mm boards, but still have a couple more things to do with it. I started on 3 more prototypes today. Looks like they might be finished tomorrow.

[corey_dyck]

Thanks for the updates! It's really neat to hear how subtle changes lead to big changes in board performance/character. It's also great to see riders with different styles agreeing that board C is 'better' than boards A, B, D, E, and F. I assume that you don't want to spill the whole beans as this testing has been done at your expense (materials and time) for your competitive advantage, but would you care to share any interesting/surprising discoveries?

I'm quite excited to ride some of the new Doneks at SES 2011. <-- Wow, that's a long time from now!

[pow4ever]

The Kessler/SG boards are exceprional riding race boards. They both have a very smooth ride and are easy to control. But to ride them well you have to get on it. They like to go fast down hill, and not finish turns (the Kessler more-so than the SG) - that's what they are designed for. Sean's latest board design has the same buttery smooth ride feel, turn transition, speed and power but allows more control over the shape of the turn - especially towards the middle and end of the turn. More user friendly w/out sacrificing performance.



Thank you Mike.
You are way too modest about your riding. If I can carve one quarter as well as you I will be very happy.

That's the exact feedback that my wallet is afraid of. Sounds like Donek got the perfect free carve board in the up coming season.

What's this wangle dangle/top secret thing? happy fin plate?
I don't understand the need for clandestine :confused:
someone need to leak more information.
case point: Apple 4th Gen Iphone. See how much coverages it get?

Otherwise how else do we know how much money to save? :ices_ange
It will generate buzz and get us excited about next season which seems like so far away...


--
David

[Michael Pukas]

What's this wangle dangle/top secret thing? happy fin plate?
I don't understand the need for clandestine :confused:
someone need to leak more information.
case point: Apple 4th Gen Iphone. See how much coverages it get?

Otherwise how else do we know how much money to save? :ices_ange
It will generate buzz and get us excited about next season which seems like so far away...

Just start saving your hard earned cold cash now!!! :eek:

The 2011 snow season/SES will be here before we know it! :biggthump

[Michael Pukas]

I met of with the crew again yesterday (Fin included). The testing went really well. We are getting very close to finalizing everything.

Testing was good yesterday. Again, some eye opening discoveries. New realizations. Sean's board designs are close to be finalized, and as he said, there are only a couple more options that need visiting. The boards are oh so sweet!

Snowman and I were the only one's man enough to take out the 2 race board protos. Fun rides, but in true race board fasion, they were demanding and liked to run down hill.

They have a couple - but very significant - differences from the free ride boards. Side cut and construction amoung them. Each board had two different rocker-camber profiles and construction tweaks. Again it's eye opening to see how small changes make big differences! These boards may not be desireable for most of us here, and I think feedback from the racers is needed. I'm curious to know what they think. One of the two boards was very close to being a Kessler Killer. But that's a bold statement that needs to be backed by more qualified riders under more controled conditions - i.e. racers in gates. :cool:

The next round will be interesting and exciting as usual. This is a great time to riding alpine snowbaords - you guys are in for a treat next season! :biggthump

[~tb]

. . . But that's a bold statement that needs to be backed by more qualified riders under more controled conditions - i.e. racers in gates. :cool:


Great to hear the progress out there, and its comments and qualifications like the ones above that continue to up your "review credibility" in my book. Its going to be a LOOOOONNNNGGGG summer waiting to get to try these!

-Todd

[Lowell Hart]

clips from Tuesday's session:

<center> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://blip.tv/scripts/pokkariPlayer.js?ver=2009070701"></script> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://blip.tv/syndication/write_player?skin=js&posts_id=3643262&source=3&autoplay=true&file_type=wmv&player_width=720&player_height=480"></script> <div id="blip_movie_content_3643262"> <a rel="enclosure" href="http://blip.tv/file/get/Snowfun4you-DonekBoardTest5112010ABasinCO954.wmv" onclick="play_blip_movie_3643262(); return false;"><img title="Click to play" alt="Click to play. 2X Click for full screen" width="720" height="480" src="http://blip.tv/file/get/Snowfun4you-DonekBoardTest5112010ABasinCO954.wmv.jpg" border="0" title="Hit it!" /></a> <br /> <a rel="enclosure" href="http://blip.tv/file/get/Snowfun4you-DonekBoardTest5112010ABasinCO954.wmv" onclick="play_blip_movie_3643262(); return false;">Hit it!</a> </div> </center>
2X click for full screen.

Enjoy the ride.

[Michael Pukas]

That is an AWESOME film Lowell! Thanks much for putting the time in to film and edit that. Great work!!!

[heroshmero]

Sean, thanks for letting all of us in on this process. It really keeps the stoke up to see you guys working on development.

And we got a sneak peek of the Happy Fin Plate!!!

:)

[Michael Pukas]

And we got a sneak peek of the Happy Fin Plate!!!
Look closer. ;)

[Hans]

Look closer. ;)



Nahhh, no Happy Fin Plate, it's the Bomber plate :eplus2::biggthump:cool: and I hope it fits the normal inserts, looks that way (04:29) and further.

Very, very nice vid by the way. Love the music and editing, nice ridingstyle to watch also.

[heroshmero]

Sorry, I thought that was the "code" name. I know it was a whole different thing than last spring's Happy Fun Plate project.

Still, cool stuff!

[pow4ever]

Great video!!! Thank you for sharing.
Is it possible to make it downloadable?
I think it's going to help me get through the next 6 months.

Man i really need to move. Can't believe the condition in A Basin this time of the year.

Thanks again.
David

[Hans]

Great video!!! Thank you for sharing.
Is it possible to make it downloadable?


Just right click and save on your HD.

[Snowman]

That is some rockstar video action and the techo background beats are the icing on the cake. Thanks Lowell for taking the time to put these vids together.

Think Snow!

[Donek]

I haven't made it on snow in a little over a week. I do have some new boards to test. My van broke down last week, giving me a few days to play with something I've been drawing and pondering for a few weeks. Check out the video.
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[kieran]

this looks very promising, especially if you're going to offer it as an add-on with board purchases.
what sort of impact does it have on flex pattern and stiffness choice, though?

[Seraph]

Wow, good luck, that looks great. Thanks for the video detailing the process, very interesting.

[Donek]

this looks very promising, especially if you're going to offer it as an add-on with board purchases.
what sort of impact does it have on flex pattern and stiffness choice, though?

I rode the other plate on a board with our standard flex. The steamboat team is preferring a slightly stiffened shovel with a plate system.

[Michael Pukas]

what sort of impact does it have on flex pattern and stiffness choice, though?
I agree w/ what Sean said re: the Steamboat team's feedback.

Any board can be ridden with a plate, but you may have to adjust how you ride. I have found the plate gives you much more leverage on the nose/front of the board. You have to be a little careful how much you load the nose of the board in turn initiation.

The GS protos that Mark and I rode last week had a stiffened front end to accomodate for that, but we didn't get a chance to ride them w/ a plate. The Steamboat guys & gals did though...

The current thought is that if you are planning getting a new baord to ride a plate on, you'll want a stiffer front end. Of course you ride either a standard board or a plate-board with or without a plate, it's just that the flex will be optimized for the intended use.

[pow4ever]

Just right click and save on your HD.
Thanks you Hans. Shame on me :smashfrea Works great.

Happy Fun Donek Plate!!! Thank you Sean for sharing.

Just a comparison for weight
According to the other thread:
Hangle weighs in at 5.30 Lbs and the Vist is at 5.1 lbs
If you can make it affortable/light weight.
then You got a runaway hit on your hand IMHO.

Thank you again for sharing this.

--
David

[kieran]

I have found the plate gives you much more leverage on the nose/front of the board. You have to be a little careful how much you load the nose of the board in turn initiation.that suggests you could use a larger-radius sidecut than normal, since there is extra leverage to start the turn with. ?

[Michael Pukas]

that suggests you could use a larger-radius sidecut than normal, since there is extra leverage to start the turn with. ?
Yeah, that makes sense. It'll take a little practice. I've found loading the nose of a normal board with a plate leads to a face plant as the front of the board folds... dying to try one of Sean's GS proto boards w/ a bigger radius just for that purpose.

[Michael Pukas]

Another day of proto testing gone by. Definitely the "worst" conditions we've seen so far. Only a coupl weeks 'till it's over. :eek:

A couple of new ideas tried out, with fairly predictable results. I think Sean finally has a production model for 2011 nailed down. It's such a sweet ride! :biggthump

Feedback f/ the racers from the last week was as expected for the GS board design - the shape of one board combined with the construction and materials of another board. In the end, the GS boards and the freecarve boards really aren't going to be that different from each other - just tweaked for the application.

The Donek plates we're riden by Sean, Snowman and Ice. They work! I'm sure Sean's sitting at his computer hammering away at revisions on the keyboard and CNC'ing them as I type this...

Great work this spring Sean!!! mpp

[Snowman]

Sean has come up with a plate system of his own that was tested yesterday. Its an different spin on a existing system with a wood deck instead of carbon fiber and super simple. I think that Sean is shooting for a price point system for those of us mere mortals who might shudder at the thought of paying $1000+ for the bling verision. Set up was simple and perfomrance was excellent. I jammed it as hard and as often as I could in yesterdays gnarley conditions and it didn't pop! Not to shabby for a first run proto. I think this is going to be a good and affordable way for more and more people to experience the performance enhancements the plate systems provide. The weight penality is still there; my request for a 1.3lb version has yet to be satisified, so if your intending to lug it around all day you will probably want to find chair lifts with a foot rest. I think with some refinement and additional testing if might also find itself a home in the race leagues at the local level.

[Michael Pukas]

It's always a pleasure to ride w/ Snowman + Ice - those two S.O.B.'s make such nice turns! And with those two on plates in the crud of yesterday, there was no way I could keep up. Even if Snowman is @&^&%( +#$% whose always @#&^*$(&@! :biggthump

[Snowman]

[QUOTE= Even if Snowman is @&^&%( +#$% whose always @#&^*$(&@! :biggthump[/QUOTE]

And don't forget to add consistent to that statemanet!:biggthump

[kieran]

i'm fairly certain i'm interested in one of those plates to fiddle with at the indoor slope, over the summer.
should generate a bit of buzz, and tide me over until i decide on the next board. ;)

[Donek]

Well, it looks like there's not going to be much more riding in Colorado. I was up for what I believe is the last day of the season for me yesterday. The snow was like cement in the morning, but did soften up. We got in a few more runs on the plates and finalized some decisions on what will be our productions shapes/constructions for next year.

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While I probably won't be on snow anymore, I do have a few more concepts to finalize on our plate. I am getting ready to produce a 4X4 version in the next few days. I'll be looking for someone with access to snow to put it through it's paces. I will keep everyone posted on the progress.

[Jack Michaud]

nice. can you share the final dimensions of the GS board(s) you've decided to produce for next season?

[kieran]

but wheres the carving? ;)

[Michael Pukas]

but wheres the carving? ;)
No Lowel = no carving footage. :(

Conditions weren't too good (full on boiler-plate at the top), so it wasn't pretty. The middle softened up nicely and we linked a few decent turns. You're not missing anything... the previous footage has much better riding.

[Donek]

nice. can you share the final dimensions of the GS board(s) you've decided to produce for next season?

I can't figure out how to avoid aligning a table with the bottom of the page, so here it is. The specs below are what we tested. Much of the testing was concepts that will be applied to the rest of the line. I've overhauled the construction, the decamber profile is completely different and things have been stiffened up. The shapes I'm listing are pretty much the same shapes we ran last season, with one variation. The board with the 14-20-17m sidecut enables you to tighten the turn up a bit as you exit your turn. It provides the same dynamic adjustability you get with 2 radii, but is a pleasant change.

<table border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>model</td><td>Length</td><td>EE</td><td>shovel</td><td>waist</td><td>tail</td<td>sidecut</td></tr><tr><td align="right">184GS</td><td align="right">184</td><td align="right">171.5</td><td align="right">25.4</td><td align="right">20.0</td><td align="right">23.3</td><td>14-20</td></tr><tr><td>184GS #2</td><td align="right">184</td><td align="right">171.5</td><td align="right">25.2</td><td align="right">20.0</td><td align="right">23.2</td><td>14-20-17</td></tr><tr><td>184 WCGS</td><td align="right">184</td><td align="right">171.5</td><td align="right">25.0</td><td align="right">20.0</td><td align="right">22.9</td><td>14-24</td></tr></table>

[~tb]

. I've overhauled the construction, the decamber profile is completely different and things have been stiffened up. The shapes I'm listing are pretty much the same shapes we ran last season, with one variation. The board with the 14-20-17m sidecut enables you to tighten the turn up a bit as you exit your turn. It provides the same dynamic adjustability you get with 2 radii, but is a pleasant change.


Sean,

Just to make sure I understand clearly, when you say that the shapes are the same, your are JUST referring to the sidecut shape, waist width etc. Correct?

Based on the video's above, the camber/decamber and stiffness changes you have made improved the riding characteristics of these boards greatly. These aspects will be changing on all of your alpine boards for the 2010-2011 season.

[Donek]

Sean,

Just to make sure I understand clearly, when you say that the shapes are the same, your are JUST referring to the sidecut shape, waist width etc. Correct?

Based on the video's above, the camber/decamber and stiffness changes you have made improved the riding characteristics of these boards greatly. These aspects will be changing on all of your alpine boards for the 2010-2011 season.

You have it all correct.

[Donek]

I have just finished substituting some hardware components on the plate, reducing the weight from 5.9lbs to 5.3lbs. With an alteration to the locations of some of the holes on the plate itself, I will be able to further reduce things to 5.2lbs. Once I redesign the plate itself, I am certain, I can easily get the weight below 5lbs. Things are looking very good.

[Emdee406]

You have it all correct.
Sean, will your new developments be appearing in your Slalom lengths too?

[Donek]

Sean, will your new developments be appearing in your Slalom lengths too?

Absolutely. You're likely to see some of this stuff in the freeride shapes too. I'm already rolling it over to some twin tip shapes going to Australia this summer.

[!MaineCarver!]

I was fortunate enough to put some runs in on three new Doneks on Sunday and came away saying WOW. Sean is really getting it figured out! The absolute lastest build is way beyond what I had expected.

BTW I'm about 180-185 lbs., fairly aggressive, some race experience, 20 or so seasons carving 50-100+ days per season. Normally ride GS type boards 180cm+. Currently riding Hardbooters Prior Pretty Good Stick, '10 Track 700's, TD3 SI.

In pretty good snow conditions this board (184 GS) did everything I asked of it: I layed it over for smooth turns on some fairly steep stuff, I jammed it into pretty tight radius turns on the same stuff, I rode it hard on the nose, way back on the tail, you name I tried it. This board handled it all with good feedback and no nose fold or push. I plan on adding one of these (probably as the everyday board) for next season. Great work Mr. Martin!

So is what you are saying at the end there that you wouldn't recommend it for a Giant Slalom race board?

[!MaineCarver!]

I was fortunate enough to put some runs in on three new Doneks on Sunday and came away saying WOW. Sean is really getting it figured out! The absolute lastest build is way beyond what I had expected.

BTW I'm about 180-185 lbs., fairly aggressive, some race experience, 20 or so seasons carving 50-100+ days per season. Normally ride GS type boards 180cm+. Currently riding Hardbooters Prior Pretty Good Stick, '10 Track 700's, TD3 SI.

In pretty good snow conditions this board (184 GS) did everything I asked of it: I layed it over for smooth turns on some fairly steep stuff, I jammed it into pretty tight radius turns on the same stuff, I rode it hard on the nose, way back on the tail, you name I tried it. This board handled it all with good feedback and no nose fold or push. I plan on adding one of these (probably as the everyday board) for next season. Great work Mr. Martin!

I like the sounds of this board! But is what you are saying at the end there that you wouldn't recommend this board for a Giant Slalom race board?

[Donek]

I like the sounds of this board! But is what you are saying at the end there that you wouldn't recommend this board for a Giant Slalom race board?

The board Kevin is referring to here has the 14-20m sidecut geometry. This is a shape that is likely appropriate to lower level racers and aggressive freecarvers. The feedback from the Steamboat team on the 14-24 geometry was very positive. It looks like some of the athletes on that team may be riding the 14-24 gemometry for competition next year.

[!MaineCarver!]

Okay thank you

[ice]

I was certainly NOT saying that board wasn't a worthy GS course contender, it is. I actually bought that board; I plan on running it for USASA GS next season. I am not a World Cup racer, so I'm not qualified to say it's a World Cup contender. (FWIW: I did take second at USASA nationals this year in the Legends class.)

All of the new Doneks I rode were exceptional, and the new plate system has piqued my interest as well. I believe the new production boards will be easier to ride and more versatile and have the ability to be pushed harder with great response.

ice

[Donek]

I've posted an update on our plate system prototyping in the video updates thread. Just go here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=309311#post309311

[colintkemp]

Great stuff, Sean; thanks for the update. And the v3 plate looks great, it's a predator.

[Michael Pukas]

SUUUUWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTAAAAHHHHH!!!

Great application for cap construction. :biggthump

[colintkemp]

Seriously, MP, I agree - my Hangl and Vist might have to move over. Sean, I'm chomping at the bit...

[kieran]

that capped construction looks lovely, especially with the glossy finishes.
what sort of weight difference is there between the fluted underside (v2) and waist-with-rib (v3)?

[Donek]

that capped construction looks lovely, especially with the glossy finishes.
what sort of weight difference is there between the fluted underside (v2) and waist-with-rib (v3)?

v2 is actually the lightest and v3 is only barely lighter than v1. The core and structural components have lightened significantly. Adding those glossy graphics is the killer on weight.

[Michael Pukas]

Sean - I'm particularly impressed with how much stiffer v3 is. Also, I really like the high-tech super-duper scientific bend-o-meter!

I don't know about making v3 softer - from all the testing we did w/ your plate and w/ Fin's, stiffer plates performed better. And as the pivot points gets closer together, therefore closer to the binding center, a stiffer plate will help reduce the teter-toter effect. Especially helpful for 4x4 inserts.

But I sorta agree - too stiff may be too much. Having a tiny bit if flex adds a margin of forgivness in the system. I wonder if there's a market for two plates - one slightly lighter and medium stiff for rec carvers, and one a bit heavier and uber stiff for racers? mpp

[kieran]

i'm also wondering if you'll start to use your über-secret aluminium/fibreglass laminating method to reinforce mountpoints on the snowboards, both 4x4 and plate inserts. ?

[SunSurfer]

from all the testing we did w/ your plate and w/ Fin's, stiffer plates performed better. And as the pivot points gets closer together, therefore closer to the binding center, a stiffer plate will help reduce the teter-toter effect. Especially helpful for 4x4 inserts.

But I sorta agree - too stiff may be too much. Having a tiny bit if flex adds a margin of forgivness in the system. I wonder if there's a market for two plates - one slightly lighter and medium stiff for rec carvers, and one a bit heavier and uber stiff for racers? mpp

That's the first comment I've read comparing flexible with rigid plates, and making some comment about the effect of altering the plate hinge points position in relation to the binding centre point.
I'd been wondering how the trade off between FLEX giving extra shock absorption over bumps/ruts vs. RIGIDITY giving the minimal change in binding position during the turn balanced out.
I'd also been wondering what changes in performance occurred as the plate inter-hinge distance increases over stance width (binding centre point to centre point).
If the rider's weight is centred over the hinges then plate flex would seem a little less important, whereas if the bindings, and rider's weight, are placed significantly inside the two hinge points then flex/rigidity should become a much more significant factor.

SunSurfer

[corey_dyck]

Sean, can you comment on the need (or not) for a given board to have a stiffer nose than one that won't be ridden with a plate system? It was mentioned somewhere by the early testers that a stiffer nose was desirable, the implication was that it was easier to fold the nose on a plate equipped board.

The Apex and the Shred/mystery Canadian mystery plate use the 'diving board' extension out front to add some stiffness, but both you and Bomber have obviously chosen to end your plates near the front binding. Do you feel your shorter plate will work well on older boards, or was the design intent that these plates will be used on boards with flex patterns specific to them?

Or is that a cost decision: The plate might be better with some supplemental nose reinforcement but it adds too much cost and/or variability from board to board?

BTW: I love your summer video series so far. Very cool to watch. It's like a video form of Fin's HFP mega-thread. The latest plates look very cool! I look forward to a detailed view of the hardware. I foresee a '2nd board kit' where you just transfer the whole plate from one board to another - that would be awesome!

[Donek]

Sean, can you comment on the need (or not) for a given board to have a stiffer nose than one that won't be ridden with a plate system? It was mentioned somewhere by the early testers that a stiffer nose was desirable, the implication was that it was easier to fold the nose on a plate equipped board.

The Apex and the Shred/mystery Canadian mystery plate use the 'diving board' extension out front to add some stiffness, but both you and Bomber have obviously chosen to end your plates near the front binding. Do you feel your shorter plate will work well on older boards, or was the design intent that these plates will be used on boards with flex patterns specific to them?

Or is that a cost decision: The plate might be better with some supplemental nose reinforcement but it adds too much cost and/or variability from board to board?

BTW: I love your summer video series so far. Very cool to watch. It's like a video form of Fin's HFP mega-thread. The latest plates look very cool! I look forward to a detailed view of the hardware. I foresee a '2nd board kit' where you just transfer the whole plate from one board to another - that would be awesome!

Out of the four of us testing in the spring I was the only one who did not feel a need to avoid the nose a little. We are altering the flex in the shovel of our boards for this season. This change works very well with or without the plate. As for putting a plate on an older board, there is a good chance you will move towards the tail a bit or like me, find the adjustment easily accomplished. I am not adding a diving board in the front of the plate as it adds a large amount of weight. I am addressing the issue in the lower hardware by increasing the footprint on the 4X4 system. There are a number of people who have ridden plates without diving boards or modifications to the flex. It's not a huge impediment. The reality is that the plate systems will improve your board, but you may need to make some adjustments. The plate systems will obviously excel on a board designed to use one.

As for the second board kit, it won't be necessary on the UPM system. You just unscrew 8 screws and mount it to another board. It's actually quite easy and will become easier with the production version modifications I'm making. A second board kit might be good on a 4X4 as setup will be a bit trickier. The problem there really lies in the lack of standardization on hole pattern dimensions.

[corey_dyck]

Very interesting...


The reality is that the plate systems will improve your board, but you may need to make some adjustments.
'Adjustments' as in tweaking pivot locations via experimentation on the hill? Or by altering your riding style?


As for the second board kit, it won't be necessary on the UPM system. You just unscrew 8 screws and mount it to another board.
Cool! Can't wait to see the hardware for both. The reality is that I'm stuck with 4x4 for a little while as I bought two new boards last season. The plan was to buy one, but that idea went to crap after riding all the demos at SES... ;)

[Donek]

Very interesting...


'Adjustments' as in tweaking pivot locations via experimentation on the hill? Or by altering your riding style?


Cool! Can't wait to see the hardware for both. The reality is that I'm stuck with 4x4 for a little while as I bought two new boards last season. The plan was to buy one, but that idea went to crap after riding all the demos at SES... ;)

Tweaking pivot distances, position of the plate on the board, or your stance offset. All will affect this.