PGS Board Reviews by Jack

[nekdut]

It looks like Fin OK'ed Jack's PGS board reviews and published the link with the latest Bomber newsletter:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/newhotness.cfm

Awesome work Jack!

[lonbordin]

Jack, really fantastic work. I hope you had fun... sounds like you did! :biggthump

I do question whether deflection and stiffness are the same measure but completely understand why you wanted to quantify that measure.

Now I wish I had the $,$$$.$$ for a Kessler. :freak3:

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks guys. They wanted to put it in the newsletter tonight, so you're looking at the raw electons hot off the keyboard. It'll be "Bomberized" on Monday.

It sure was fun.

[CarvingScooby]

Well done, Jack.

I wish CP lend u the FLC and that wud be great comparing these 3 decks:1luvu:: KST, NSR & FLC with similar prog SCR,... paging CP :rolleyes:one FLC for Jack please..

Thanks
RT

[Loc]

Thanks for putting in the time to ride and review, Jack. Now I can spend freely... :1luvu:

[BlueB]

Thanks Jack!
You confirmed couple of things I already knew and few others that I was specullating on.

[Jack Michaud]

Well done, Jack.

I wish CP lend u the FLC and that wud be great comparing these 3 decks:1luvu:: KST, NSR & FLC with similar prog SCR,... paging CP :rolleyes:one FLC for Jack please..

Thanks
RT

yup, the missing FLC is explained in the review. Should be a great board.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, really fantastic work. I hope you had fun... sounds like you did! :biggthump

I do question whether deflection and stiffness are the same measure but completely understand why you wanted to quantify that measure.

Now I wish I had the $,$$$.$$ for a Kessler. :freak3:

Thanks lonbordin, glad you liked it. Think I should inverse the "stiffness" numbers?

[lonbordin]

Jack has uncovered the Kessler secret.... the boards work out!
http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/stiffness_test.JPG

[lonbordin]

Thanks lonbordin, glad you liked it. Think I should inverse the "stiffness" numbers?

Tough call... I wouldn't as it would probably call for a least a little paragraph on why and who wants to write that.

One thing I did notice on re-reading this AM is while you say, "These boards were extremely lightweight..." you did not provide any weight comparisons.

I'm sure you did weight the boards, right?

Then with measurements of thickness of the board we could go so far as to calculate a comparable density number. Giving us another insight into board construction differences.

Thanks again!

[WinterGold]

This is a very informative article. Shows a lot of insight and intimate knowledge of the subject!
Loads of interesting information!
Thanks a lot, Jack! Very impressive work!

You were talking about the sizes of the raceboards, which naturally focus on the SL and GS sizes for men and women. For many years I have been complaining about this fact. Have you noticed that SG will have a 170 and a 180 for next season? They will have a 199mm and a 203mm waist and a 15,2m and a 19,2m radius. These should be excellent boards for freecarving!!!

[Jack Michaud]

One thing I did notice on re-reading this AM is while you say, "These boards were extremely lightweight..."

There I was talking about the original gen-1 Prior metal-topped boards. They were really light.


you did not provide any weight comparisons.

I'm sure you did weight the boards, right?

Nope. I don't own a precise enough scale, and I wasn't going to bring 5 185's into the supermarket. Would have been nice, but oh well.

[Jack Michaud]

This is a very informative article. Shows a lot of insight and intimate knowledge of the subject!
Loads of interesting information!
Thanks a lot, Jack! Very impressive work!

Thanks very much WG, I've been enjoying your reviews as well!


You were talking about the sizes of the raceboards, which naturally focus on the SL and GS sizes for men and women. For many years I have been complaining about this fact. Have you noticed that SG will have a 170 and a 180 for next season? They will have a 199mm and a 203mm waist and a 15,2m and a 19,2m radius. These should be excellent boards for freecarving!!!

Oh man. That 170 SG should be a freecarver's dream.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Dual radius?

I had been under the impression that Coiler/Kessler/etc. had more of a tri-radius sidecut.

Great stuff. This might be the only semi-comprehensive alpine board review available. Would have liked somewhat more of a "ranking system" apart from the Kessler but I imagine that might've been more hassle than it's worth. ;)

And also: curious if you had thought about adding an SG to the mix? Those boards have been WC winners for a couple years now; I haven't had the chance to ride one myself but I've heard that they do have a somewhat different feel than the Kesslers....

greg

[Jack Michaud]

Dual radius?

I had been under the impression that Coiler/Kessler/etc. had more of a tri-radius sidecut.

As far as I know, these race machines are basically dual radius, or variably increasing radius, which can be approximated by a dual radius. You may be thinking of the Coiler VSR which is tri-radius. NSR = dual.


Great stuff. This might be the only semi-comprehensive alpine board review available. Would have liked somewhat more of a "ranking system" apart from the Kessler but I imagine that might've been more hassle than it's worth. ;)

Thanks. Ranking them would be far too subjective and dependent on individual needs. There is something here for every advanced/expert carver.


And also: curious if you had thought about adding an SG to the mix? Those boards have been WC winners for a couple years now; I haven't had the chance to ride one myself but I've heard that they do have a somewhat different feel than the Kesslers....

Primarily I wanted to see how the North American manufacturers stacked up against *a* World Cup board. I would have gladly included an SG, but doing an across-the-board review wasn't really the point. Then I'd have to get into Black Pearl, Oxess, Virus, and everything else. The Kessler was the WC representative here. Subtle differences aside, I'll assume SGs and Kesslers are effectively equivalent given their record in WC.

Fin actually met Sigi at an FIS race in Colorado and told him about the review. He was glad to hear about it and wanted to send a board, but he simply didn't have any he could sacrifice.

[lonbordin]

So just for comparison purposes I whipped out some dowels and my 178 BS Liberation (2005/2006?). A board that several riders testefied to me as very stiff.

I followed the Michaud measuring procedure (pat. pend.).

The numbers:
Camber 21mm
Overall Stiffness 19mm
which is interesting to me... not as "stiff" as I would have guessed.

Obviously the board has had to suffer under my weight for ~30 sessions this season but was ridden very little before that...

I'd like to get a few more numbers... surely others out there have wooden dowels, a ruler, a 35 dumbbell (I use it when I'm feeling wimpy :eplus2:) and an interesting snowboard.

Post your numbers! :biggthump

[Galen]

Gold star, Jack. I learned a bunch and it was a GREAT read!:biggthump

[skategoat]

Nice work Jack. An article like that takes a lot of work.

One correction though. It's not "Joe Public." It's "Joe the Plumber."

[Maciek]

Nice review. I have re-learned some of long forgotten physics of carving and how it feels... thank to your article. As usually, Jack :) Great job!


Is there any way to get some review of Sigi Grabner (SG) boards? Are they deriviatives of Kessler?

They seem to be the similar pricing as Kessler. I wonder what're they worth.

[dave29]

Jack great write up. You made clear many unknowns for me. Thanks for the time and effort.

P.S. I must say the FLC would have really been sweet considering it's in the running as my new purchase next season.

[Michael Pukas]

It's about time!!! :)

Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I own a used Kessler 185 PGS - which has been my go-to, and only board, since late last spring. Since the SES, I've had a chance to ride all of the boards you reviewed. They are all fantastic boards, and each have their own personalities. However, I find the Kessler is a different beast. It certainly does set the bar for what a carving board can do.

One of the many amazing things I notice about this board is that when you initiate a turn, it goes faster. Much faster! Most boards you turn and can check your speed - this thing goes like you just hit the ON switch for the super charger on the V8 Interceptor. It's uncanny. The rockered nose and tail make it very forgiving and versatile. Variable snow conditions do not upset the board, and if you need to scrub speed, it's easy to slarve the tail around.

Saying that, I have issues with it. First off, it scares the s**t out me, and I don't always ride it confidently. When I do, it rewards. And then some. It doesn't like to be ridden lackadaisically. I blow out heel side turns constantly, especially on steep stuff, and softer snow - and that's from me not looking into the run enough and having my back hand behind me. I've been saying lately that it doesn't have to be ridden differently than other snowboards, just better. It's certainly making me a better rider.

When I get on another board, such as the Prior - and I've ridden that exact board you reviewed - or a Coiler Monster, I feel so much more, erm, safer. Turns and speed are more predictable. I hardly ever blow out a heel side turn, even when I'm flailing in the back seat, texting my pals, drinking a chai latte.

I'm not sure the Kessler is the best free-carving board. I have a hard time saying that, as I love the thing and really, really want to be able to rail well on it. Simply because when I'm on, on it, it's like nothing else! It's a race board, and racers do slightly different things than we do. If you want a board to challenge your skills and take your riding to the next level, a true PGS board like this will do it. If you want a short turning, easy riding board you can take anywhere, through anything, you may want to try one before you buy and compare to other options. These things are serious.

Thanks again Jack! Cheers! :biggthump

PS - Ice, you really need to ride one of these things!

[Chris Houghton]

lonbordin - the flex numbers don't mean a lot. It's the torsional stiffness that determines how the board feels to the rider. I must have measured over 60 boards on the old BOBSI system (do a search, there's lots of history) and finally gave up because the numbers didn't really mean anything as far as how the board will ride. Longitudinal stiffness is something that the rider rarely experiences. Board width, sidecut, torsional stiffness and camber have more of an effect. Just my experience.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack great write up. You made clear many unknowns for me. Thanks for the time and effort.

P.S. I must say the FLC would have really been sweet considering it's in the running as my new purchase next season.

Thanks Dave. If you were lusting for an FLC, I would say you can buy with confidence. I felt I was able to discern between the construction and the shape of the WCRM and what was doing what. Radial sidecut aside, I felt the board was really well put together and felt like a nice balance of lively and damp.


Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I did, thanks. :D


lonbordin - the flex numbers don't mean a lot. It's the torsional stiffness that determines how the board feels to the rider. ... Longitudinal stiffness is something that the rider rarely experiences.

Riding all 5 boards back to back, I can tell you that the lengthwise flex differences played very a significant role in how each board rode and felt to me. Stepping off of one board and onto another was dramatic.

[John Gilmour]

It's about time!!! :)

Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I own a used Kessler 185 PGS - which has been my go-to, and only board, since late last spring. Since the SES, I've had a chance to ride all of the boards you reviewed. They are all fantastic boards, and each have their own personalities. However, I find the Kessler is a different beast. It certainly does set the bar for what a carving board can do.

One of the many amazing things I notice about this board is that when you initiate a turn, it goes faster. Much faster! Most boards you turn and can check your speed - this thing goes like you just hit the ON switch for the super charger on the V8 Interceptor. It's uncanny. The rockered nose and tail make it very forgiving and versatile. Variable snow conditions do not upset the board, and if you need to scrub speed, it's easy to slarve the tail around.

Saying that, I have issues with it. First off, it scares the s**t out me, and I don't always ride it confidently. When I do, it rewards. And then some. It doesn't like to be ridden lackadaisically. I blow out heel side turns constantly, especially on steep stuff, and softer snow - and that's from me not looking into the run enough and having my back hand behind me. I've been saying lately that it doesn't have to be ridden differently than other snowboards, just better. It's certainly making me a better rider.

When I get on another board, such as the Prior - and I've ridden that exact board you reviewed - or a Coiler Monster, I feel so much more, erm, safer. Turns and speed are more predictable. I hardly ever blow out a heel side turn, even when I'm flailing in the back seat, texting my pals, drinking a chai latte.

I'm not sure the Kessler is the best free-carving board. I have a hard time saying that, as I love the thing and really, really want to be able to rail well on it. Simply because when I'm on, on it, it's like nothing else! It's a race board, and racers do slightly different things than we do. If you want a board to challenge your skills and take your riding to the next level, a true PGS board like this will do it. If you want a short turning, easy riding board you can take anywhere, through anything, you may want to try one before you buy and compare to other options. These things are serious.

Thanks again Jack! Cheers! :biggthump

PS - Ice, you really need to ride one of these things!

I also agree that for certain turn radii and lesser edge angle...the Kessler just leaps/squirts forward. If you really dump the board on edge... then it behaves more like a regular board plowing the nose and bending into a tighter turn radius.

I also feel an occasional unexpected heel-side blow out- typically in softer snow- or softer snow on top of firm snow.....and I wonder if moving back an extra insert pack on the rear would fix that. I am not used to having to monitor the heelside as much as I do (It seems I can twist the last few inches of the tail) . All being said... there is a lot to this 185cm PGS and it is not for tired legs.. Slarving -it takes some getting used to as well.

In terms of upping your riding level... this board will not cradle you- and if running it flat at speed on flats you should monitor it.

I do feel this is a racing machine- and certain compromises are made with racing machines which are not always in favor for the recreational freecarver.

For instance... in skateboard racing... most of the time it is advantageous to run the longest wheelbase you can possibly stuff through a course. That means giving up nimbleness and perhaps even some degree of margin for error in exchange for a longer wheelbase. So you are sacrificing some parameters of ride-ability for speed/time reduction at the end of the course. You might even choose unstable truck geometries to run a longer wheelbase. But if you are riding in traffic... you would not want a skateboard that made these trade offs. You'd want stability, predictability, and grip.

While I do enjoy riding my PGS..and will continue to ride it for a bit longer I think I will eventually sell it and get a slightly shorter deck. This machine has gobs of edge hold.. but realistically..personally I do not need edge hold that allows me to carve through Icy deeply rutted out courses with a Plate system. If the hill was that rutted...I'd wait for another day to ride. I live in Aspen after all.

Yet, If I'm racing in 2010...I'd want to be on a Kessler....after all... that's (And SG) what is winning currently, and it would be an unnecessary risk to ride anything else that wasn't regularly showing up on the Podium. That's just rational.

I don't require more than about 137-157 cm of effective edge to ride the way I like. YMMV and it does take some years of riding to NOT need a lot of effective edge. I feel too much edge/swingweight can get in the way... I also believe you can only go as fast as you can recover from a mistake or slow down at speed...and outside of a race course...having a bit too much board can be a liability. If I was 6'3" the 185cm Kessler would feel normal for me. As it is now it's 3" over my head.

You can get on a PGS Kessler and without even trying hard- even in a rutted course ...nail a Platinum medal in the NASTAR... it makes it pretty easy for the decade experienced weekend warrior or for the night-race leaguer ... ie. a person that does not have 200+ days on the snow to get the same race results on a lesser deck.

That KST sidecut is really fun.... to me it feels like the middle of the deck has less sidecut.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Riding all 5 boards back to back, I can tell you that the lengthwise flex differences played very a significant role in how each board rode and felt to me. Stepping off of one board and onto another was dramatic.How do you know it was lengthwise flex and not torsional flex differences or a myriad of other things? You have your riding dialed so well you can say "yep, it was [insert specific board characteristic] here that made that turn work"? I thought it was a kind of alchemy of things that made Kesslers, well, Kesslers.

[Jack Michaud]

The Doneks were both softer lengthwise. This made the Rec ride shorter than the Coiler and Kessler, even though it had a longer measured sidecut. The WC rode about the same size turns as the Coiler and Kessler, and it had a much larger sidecut. This can only be attributed to the softer lengthwise flex. Also the feeling of being able to manipulate the board with your feet was more pronounced on the Doneks.

[Ronin42]

Jack,

Excellent posting and Review! Please make sure it finds its place to be accessible over time to the community, it would be a crime for this to get lost or buried.

The article helped me to pick Sean as my go to guy. I am never going to race but from a business stand point I want folks to know that he nailed it, being able to suss out what was/is desired and use his expertise to turn that real every day usable products.

I just think he nailed it.

Kevin

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks Kevin, glad you found it useful. It will be in the Bomber archives soon. Fin wanted to include it in Friday's newsletter, so we went with the unformatted draft on my site.

[Buell]

How do you know it was lengthwise flex and not torsional flex differences or a myriad of other things? You have your riding dialed so well you can say "yep, it was [insert specific board characteristic] here that made that turn work"? I thought it was a kind of alchemy of things that made Kesslers, well, Kesslers.

The potential is always there to be off a bit, but I can quickly tell different characteristics on different boards and i get better at it all the time. Longitudinal and torsional flex are pretty easy to feel. I would certainly assume Jack can recognize them with a fair bit of accuracy given his years of experience.

Nice work on the review Jack.

I recently got to ride a 162 Kessler SL (thanks Hardbooter) back to back with my 165 Coiler SL (built to my 145 pounds). Almost the same specs, but the Kessler was too stiff overall for my weight. I had the exact impression you wrote below. I also found the Kessler more torsionally stiff overall and with more rebound off the tail. Some of that could have been because the Kessler was built for a heavier rider or because Bruce made some design mods for me based on feedback on previous Coilers I have owned and ridden.


The picture changed though, as soon as I started doing back-to-back swaps with the Kessler. The Coiler seems to incorporate thinner or less rubber, as it transmitted more snow-feel to the boots, and had a slightly less quiet feel. As such, the NSR gives up a short-hair of edge hold to the Kessler

[dano]

It's so much easier to wrap my head around the decambered nose/tail and multi-radius sidecut when explained humbly and logically with "pitchers". I actually "get" it now.

Much easier than digging through the arguments of others.

Nice touch working in the carving history/evolution.

A+

[Miltie]

Hey Jack, Nice review! Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. Lots of good info. Will be trying my new Donek Freecarve Metal 171 with Sidewinders tomorrow at June in CAL so will keep a mental note of your review. I also have a new custom Donek Metal GS 182 that Sean built for me sitting at home in Japan that has yet to be ridden so looking forward to compare the feel of the boards. Thanks again for your hard work on this and your stoke for alpine. Best regards, Tom

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks Miltie, Dano, Buell. :)


I do feel this is a racing machine- and certain compromises are made with racing machines which are not always in favor for the recreational freecarver.

I dunno, I thought it was a beautiful freecarver. Provided I had the trail width. If your definition of freecarving is riding all over the mountain, then there are better choices.


This machine has gobs of edge hold.. but realistically..personally I do not need edge hold that allows me to carve through Icy deeply rutted out courses with a Plate system. If the hill was that rutted...I'd wait for another day to ride. I live in Aspen after all.

I mostly agree about ruts, which is why I don't feel a need to weigh this board down with a plate system. But the board's abilities to deal with ruts and imperfections also give it superb edge hold on clean groom, and I'll take that any day.

-----

I saw a comment on another site wondering why I wrote about a page on the Kessler and only about 15 lines on each of the other boards. The deal here is that the other boards come close or very close to being the Kessler, so I only detailed the ways in which they were not.

[John Gilmour]

the Kessler is certainly a great freecarver.... perfect for instance in the Outback at Mt. Bachelor... I certainly would not leave that deck behind. I also feel the Kesslers have something special about them...that I would also expect in the shorter lengths- as I felt it a bit on the 163bx and 168bx.

But I do think there is a difference between racing machines and recreational machines. For instance.. a souped up 2010 Ford Mustang with 800HP would kill my 16 year old 322hp Mercedes E500- but I feel safer and more in control in my Mercedes and consequently have more fun in it.

Perhaps a V-10 Hennesy Viper vs a Mercedes SLR might be a more apt comparison.

In a closed course.. brakes are not as important as they are in public. So having a larger deck when you might not need all that edge hold.. and would prefer to have better braking might be a wiser choice.

but hey...I knew that. I knew that I didn't need all the edge hold, that it would be harder to slow down, heavier swing weight, and be like a freight train.. and that the extra running length would just result in a time down the hill a few 1/10ths more faster at a cost where I would rather have maneuverability .

BUT... I wanted to feel it.. So, like you, I bought the Kessler 185 PGS. I like the board a lot..But I think I might be happier on a 180 or 176cm deck. I won't know until I ride one. For now----the Kessler 185 PGS is hella fast.

I just don't feel the extra length contributes more to performance of freecarving as it does to racing....basically I am in agreement with you over the ubiquitous 171cm lengths for freecarving.

I can ride the 185 PGS on any trail... but as the trails get steeper and narrower I do feel I have fewer turn options... So at Aspen Mt. I ride Ruthies and Copper , and back of Bell 2 with it. I find other Aspen trails take some time to gather speed to make the sidecut work... At Snowmass I loooove the board on Sneaky's and a few other runs. But at Buttermilk.... there aren't really a lot of fast runs for that deck......and Highlands runs a bit narrow up top and a bit too flat (thought wide) on the bottom.

for instance... at Wachusett.... I would think the Kessler 185 PGS is too much board for the Mountain.... you could freecarve there... but you might take a few people out too. I don't feel that way with a 180cm Donek for instance.

[Jack Michaud]

The review has been published on BomberOnline here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/newhotness.cfm