Bordy says: leave the Swoard in the Scabbard

[Jack Michaud]

http://www.hardbooter.com/articles.php?id=22

interesting.

[nils]

thnx jack for link
answered there:
Here EC forum (http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6395#6395)

Maybe riders feedback will answer too...
We do meet people that are race oriented and do not like the way the board turns, however its not so common.. so Bordy's advice has to be read with his race eyes.... although some of the speed comments are a bit ... strange!

Nils

[lonerider]

Originally posted by nils
thnx jack for link
answered there:
Here EC forum (http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6395#6395)

Maybe riders feedback will answer too...
We do meet people that are race oriented and do not like the way the board turns, however its not so common.. so Bordy's advice has to be read with his race eyes.... although some of the speed comments are a bit ... strange!

Nils

I have to agree with the posts by Nils on the EC forum.

First, Bordy's speed estimates are definitely wrong. Clearly on the video they are going much faster than 20 mph... I mean I can sprint at like 18 mph for 100m (would be an 12.5 second 100m, Olympic runners run it in ~9.85 and hence would bat me by a whopping 30 meters). That would mean if I raced Bordy down the slope with him going at 20 mph and turning and I went straight down... I would easily beat him down the slope.

So either he is going REALLY slow, or he just doesn't judge speed well (since he's an expert racer... he could be going 50-60 mph thinking it it's a stroll in the park)

After reading the review... Bordy seems to have the mindset "if I can't do it after my first day of riding... then no one can!" Considering he's an expert racer, that has some merit... maybe... but let's make the minor assumption that he isn't the world more natural athlete and can pick up anything in a matter of minute. On the most general sense, I mean he says it felt great until he went too fast and wasn't able to control that board... which leads to two possibilities... 1) the board isn't doing it right 2) he hasn't gotten the hang of the riding style the board is designed for. Considering the footage in the video... it definitely looks like "some" people can do it with the proper model Swoard. So I doubt it's choice #1 despite what the article implies. Also I notice no mention of feedback and opinions from the rider Bordy borrowed the board from, who I believe was riding with him the whole time. Hasn't Bordy seen this guy ride his own board? Why no discussion of other rider's experience?

I should mention I've never ridden a Swoard and actually I don't think I would like that particular style of board and riding. In fact I find the Swoard to be a bit expensive... but I've seen footage of people doing awesome EC carves with it, so I have trouble believe that it's only fit "entry-level riders."

[Neil Gendzwill]

I dunno, exact speed quibbles aside, a very experienced, strong rider says the board washes out at speed. His "speed" may be quite different from your "speed". Take it for what it's worth. It is interesting to see the sorts of boards he compares it with for speed handling though.

[D-Sub]

lets not dismiss bordy's skills and sheer number of years on alpine equipment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by D-Sub
lets not dismiss bordy's skills and sheer number of years on alpine equipment.
No kidding. One of the respondants called him a "non-stylish" rider, apparently based on photos on his website like this (http://hardbooter.com/gallery/Presidents04/IMG00356).

[D-Sub]

yup. I thought that was pretty lame, too.

Bordy may have come on pretty strong here more than once, but his riding is a separate matter, and he clearly knows his stuff.

hopin to ride with him and tille and skully someday

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
I dunno, exact speed quibbles aside, a very experienced, strong rider says the board washes out at speed. His "speed" may be quite different from your "speed". Take it for what it's worth. It is interesting to see the sorts of boards he compares it with for speed handling though.

I was in the middle of updating my post to reflect second-thoughts similar to yours and D-Sub's comments. Yes, I realize that Bordy is an extremely good rider.

But, let's take your postulate... let's say he has the wrong speed numbers... and he's really washing out at say 50-60 mph instead of 15-20 mph... hey, I would wash out my turns at a 50-60 mph with any board.... see what I mean... then his comments should be "only for entry-level riders... who go less than 50 mph on a completely inclinated EC carved turn".... which would mean about 90% of all riders.

What is interesting about the post is that minus the opinions... his experiences are a LOT like my first experience with alpine boards. I considered myself to be an advanced freerider and I could carve pretty well on my Salomon Definition board (could almost do a 360 degree carve) and I could hit speeds past 50 mph. However... it was a whole new ballgame for me on hardboots... I couldn't go faster than 20 mph (coasting for about 5 seconds) without feeling like I was going to fast, and I would wash out my turns on bothsides all over the place, and the angles felt all wrong, but I knew it was just that I had to relearn how to snowboard and I am slowly picking it up...

So my thought was that perhaps (PERHAPS) Bordy is being too impatient.

[D-Sub]

yeah...one day on a board that is advertised as DIFFERENT than most carving boards (meaning it needs a different approach) is a few days too few most likely

[CarvCanada]

yah, the Swoard definately demands a different style of riding than the Madd 158 which Bordy rides
it seems from the videos you need to set the board to decamber with lots of angulation, then push out to lock the board in a smaller radius as you completely eliminate angulation by inclinating to 90 degrees, extremely different form of riding

[CarvCanada]

obviously at least Jacques and Patrice can lock into EC going at least 40 km/h, look at Jacques carve at time 1:40 of Stoked.

[FTA2R]

Hi,

which video are you all referring to ? the EC "opus video."?

someone mentioned they went 50 mph or so. just curious, how did they arrive at this number?


thx,

Barry

[Bordy]

Jack thanks for the thread nice to see anyone visiting the site.

I’m glad you guys read the review, and I was very surprised by the ride of the Swoard just as you are by my review.

I ride lots off different gear and feel the time I spent (4 runs) was enough to judge the ride of the Swoard.

As for the speed I think it is important to note it was very warm around 54 degrees F and I was riding several very steep pitches as well as mellow groomers between pitches. The snow was soft and I could easily dig 4 to 6 inch deep trenches under full load in the middle of the turn.

The soft spring snow not only limited my speed but gave great support to really stand on the Swoard. It folded at around the speeds I indicate, at full lean, under full throttle, in the steeps, trying to Extreme Carve on it. It did perform well at slower cruising speeds and on mellow pitches.

I rode the swoard with the EC guys’ stance recommendations for cant and angles and feel as though I did a good job putting it though its paces with a honest attempt to maintain the EC style. I did try to ride the Swoard with several types of style and input changes, and found its flex and ride characteristics very quickly and was pleased with the slow speed handling.

I had also just jumped off one of Klugs’ old SG board with a 20.5 waist and a much larger radius. So the board width change and new stance angles felt plenty comfy after riding that Wide SG stick. Plus because off the soft spring snow I was riding the very soft and spongy Burton race plate. So the jump into a Catek was a welcomed surprise. (all-tough I do ride Cateks and Bomber T1 and 2s through out the year on different sticks). I also was very used to the catek and charged right into The Swoard.

I am lucky enough to ride many different boards. The photos of the Madd at the web site were also my first and only day riding that board and my new Indy’s fist day out, also. The shots we shot in the spring; 3-24-04 on Klugs old SG stick was my first day on that board as well. I also have an entire fleet of demo soft boot boards at my disposal and try to ride them all.
I probably ride over 40 different shapes a year not including industry demos.

I am happy to answer any question about any of my reviews at Hardbooter.com or here at BOL.

I just picked up 2 Doneks from Pete Thorndike last week they have both been his race stick at some point. Look for me to do a review on what I am hoping are some of Doneks best shapes and some serious binding showdowns, soon as the resorts open!

:D

[lonerider]

Hi, it looks like BOL is the most trafficked of the three forums, so I'll post here.

Update: I don't know about EC riding in slushy condition... Nils, do you have any thoughts about the riding conditions Bordy was in?

Respectfully, I am not so sure that you would be able to complete judge the ride of the Swoard in only 4 runs particularly because (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not familiar with the EC riding style (now realize I don't know much about EC myself - I'm just saying this as a general hypothetical). Reading your posts you talked about "imitating" the EC style you've seen other people do... so it sounds like your considerable experience is devoted the the "NE Style" of carving that is more applicable to racing. As such, I find it difficult to believe that you could fully absorb the dynamics of the new style AND the board at the same time.

You have ridden many boards... but most of them were race-orient boards with the same mindset. I think it is very clear the the Swoard makers were out to try and do something rather different. If would be like a F1 driver trying to judge the merits of a Drift car.

My second point is that your conclusions seem to be directly contradicted by other eurocarvers on the Swoard. Did you ever see John-Paul ride on his own board? Was he able to ride an EC at higher speeds than you? What was his reaction/rebuttal to you conclusions about the Swoard?

What about the riders in the EC video "Opus", they are definitely going at a decently fast speed on a rather steep pitch. If you look closely at the slow-mo sequences... you actually see the soft nose of the board flapping wildly (like you experience) but yet they are still able to maintain a full laid out carve (so it seems)...

Maybe (I'm guessing) it's because you are biased towards a "forward weighted" stance as would be good for say a Madd 158? How do you explain the differences between you experiences and the experiences of dedicated eurocarvers? (I just feel like these two viewpoints don't seem to be compatible as they are right now).

Again I would like to STRESS that I'm just trying to figure out why we have such differing opinions on the same board. I don't really know much about eurocarving, the Swoard, or even alpine snowboarding myself (only been here 1 year). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of things so to say as a purely intellectual problem and my observations are just based on my personal reasoning.

[Bordy]

Lone rider has several questions so I’ll try me best to answer them one at a time.

Q-1.

Respectfully, I am not so sure that you would be able to complete judge the ride of the Swoard in only 4 runs particularly because (correct me if I'm wrong) you are not familiar with the EC riding style (now realize I don't know much about EC myself - I'm just saying this as a general hypothetical). Reading your posts you talked about "imitating" the EC style you've seen other people do... so it sounds like your considerable experience is devoted the the "NE Style" of carving that is more applicable to racing. As such, I find it difficult to believe that you could fully absorb the dynamics of the new style AND the board at the same time.

A-1.

I pride my self on the ability to make many different styles of turns and would not say I am devoted to any style. I try instead to allow the board shape to dictate the style it is after all just a controlled descent. Part of being a season rider and the author or reviews is my ability to judge a product on its ride and the rider its suited for. Not only how it rides when I try to ride it but how it holds up to all types of riding. Because of the lack of EC instruction I instead had to base my riding off the articles and videos on the EC website, discussions and riding sessions with other snowboard professionals, and several thousand other turns similar to the EC style I had done over time. And with out sounding too witty I am very well practiced at turning the way some on else suggest, from many coach athlete relationships as well. Also I think it is important to note I have Been to Boon Lennons carving clinics which is the closes we Americans have seen to a EC clinic in the states.

If I would have ordered a Swoard I would have only received the same training as I did prior to riding it, I still would have had to find its “sweet spot’ on my own and I believe I tried my best and did so in the length of time I rode the Board.

Q-2
You have ridden many boards... but most of them were race-orient boards with the same mindset. I think it is very clear the the Swoard makers were out to try and do something rather different. If would be like a F1 driver trying to judge the merits of a Drift car.

A-2
Many of the boards I ride are not race boards. I try to ride a little of everything. Mostly I ride and test product for a retail chain. Or I give feedback on R and D product.

Q-3
My second point is that your conclusions seem to be directly contradicted by other eurocarvers on the Swoard. Did you ever see John-Paul ride on his own board? Was he able to ride an EC at higher speeds than you? What was his reaction/rebuttal to you conclusions about the Swoard?

A-3
Truthfully John-Paul and I are at much different ability levels I did see him ride his board and agree that he needed a much different product then he was on to aid his riding. The post at EC.com and John –Paul both made reference to him needing a much smaller and softer board I agree 100 percent and hope John-Paul is having as much fun riding every day as he was that day. He watched me ride his board and made several comments most of them in response of how well I rode his board which forced me to assume I was riding it correctly in his eyes as well. He listen to my on snow comments and we discussed how fun the EC is and how well the swoard product works for him as an intermediate rider


Q-4
What about the riders in the EC video "Opus", they are definitely going at a decently fast speed on a rather steep pitch. If you look closely at the slow-mo sequences... you actually see the soft nose of the board flapping wildly (like you experience) but yet they are still able to maintain a full laid out carve (so it seems)....

A-4
I have been following and discussing the EC style for some time I am familiar with the EC site and have seen the video “Opus”. The day I rode the Swoard It preformed as a wrote in the review. Also if the Nose of the board is flapping wildly under the skilled feet of the EC founders then how can it be a true carve? And why is it so hard to understand it did the same under my feet?

Q-5
Maybe (I'm guessing) it's because you are biased towards a "forward weighted" stance as would be good for say a Madd 158? How do you explain the differences between you experiences and the experiences of dedicated eurocarvers? (I just feel like these two viewpoints don't seem to be compatible as they are right now).


A-5
I am really about a stance and form that starts the turn with the nose, and finishes at the tail. I am happy to do what ever it takes in the middle, to make the turn happen with as much control and edge grip as possible. I think the differences between my experiences and the hardcore ECers may be my lack of time on a EC specific board like the swoard and since this is the first product of its type I think its still a very fair review. I have however spent years adjusting many riding styles to board shapes and feel the adjustments needed to ride the swoard where well within my ability.

Q-6
Again I would like to STRESS that I'm just trying to figure out why we have such differing opinions on the same board. I don't really know much about eurocarving, the Swoard, or even alpine snowboarding myself (only been here 1 year). I'm just trying to get to the bottom of things so to say as a purely intellectual problem and my observations are just based on my personal reasoning.

A-6
This really isn’t a question to answer and I can’t really understand your interest in the review from a consumer or riders point of view. I assume You are perplexed by my review not following the same form as the reviews on the web site that created the board and the way to ride it. I had the chance to ride a product many people would love to try I took it out and rode it with all the excitement any new Swoard owner would have. I then wrote a truthful review about the board I rode hoping to share its ride under my feet with everyone else, who had not. The story was Hardbooter Test drives a Swoard and thats what we did. It still had 2edges and we treated as needed!

That our program at Hardbooter we ride gear hard and try to tell you how it works for us.
We break stuff, we hate stuff, we love stuff… We are out there trying and riding gear from a unbiased point of view. Turn after Turn we Love to Snowboard and just want to share the love with other riders!

:D

[NateW]

Bordy, did you try eurocarving that same day, on those same runs, on other boards? I mean, to establish a baseline / control for the snow characteristics? What other board(s) did you use and how did it (they) compare?

(This is all academic to me, btw, I just like to extract as much information as possible from things like this. :) )

[Bordy]

Nate I did ride other boards EC style right after, I rode a 20.5 wide 193 17.5m R SG board doing some layed out turns at ludicrous speed. I then put my cateks on a ride timless 164 and went out and got it. It felt a lot like the swoard. Then I strapped on a Burton Speed 73 with a 20 com waist and a 14ishR and it felt much more stable then the swoard even though I had never ridden that board until that day also.

The next day I then rode several free ride boards in similar conditions with several bindings including Cateks and my Indys I was surprised how similar many big name free ride board felt under foot. Although the swoard is Alpine specific board and clearly carves better then the free ride boards I rode, I did feel similarities in feel and felt it was worth mentioning, and that it may be worth a trip out on a wide free ride board with plates to try out some EC turns before shelling out the cash for a swoard. If you like the EC style turn then get a EC style Stick!

[AlpentalRider]

Look Bordy, if you didn't like the board, then you didn't like the board. But to sit there and say the board is only for beginners and can't ride at speed, and doesn't hold an edge are really stupid comments to make.

Those Opus videos don't lie, people can ride the SWOARDS laid out at high speeds without any problem. Are you claiming those videos must be fabricated? Or are you claiming that those riders aren't as good as you and that's why they don't have problems? Please, fill me in on this, I really would like to know.

The stupidest quote of all from your article was when you stated that the T6 and Custom X could hold an edge better then the SWOARD. Are you on some crack or something??? I own a Johan which is my primary board and which holds an edge way better then either the T6 or CustomX and there is no way it's getting better edge hold (especially at speed) then a SWOARD or any other decently manufactured alpine board. The turning radiuses alone on those boards will make them fold and wash out at the speeds you quoted!

You totally lose credibiility with such garbage statements that are obviously flat out wrong.

You took a basically good review on first impressions of a product, and negated it by sprinkling in a whole bunch of BS which didn't belong in the article. And this attitude that there is no way it could be your technique because your so l33t, so therefore it must be the equipment makes me wonder if your related to CMC...

[D-Sub]

aww come on, man. did you even read the other responses above?

is it so hard to keep things civil and not talk **** like that? Bordy's responses (and the review for that matter) were completely civil and clearly without malice

your last post, AR, is the worst of the bunch. Why feel so offended about a review of a board you dont own? Did Bordy say that the EC dudes suck? Did he even slightly intimate that the videos might be fabricated?

I dont even know why the hell Im getting into this but some of you guys are acting like little crybabys

[tilledog]

A far cry, my man..... He's giving HIS review of the board. Maybe you should do a review as well.

Davo

[AlpentalRider]

I'm not offended, I'm aggrivated because someone of Bordy's ability and standing in the community shouldn't make such dumb blanket statements in a review that will be read and taken literally by people who respect that site.

I'm aggrivated because several of his statements flat-out aren't true (SWOARD not being able to be ridden at speed, that a CustomX can hold edge better, etc).

If some beginner rider posted the review all of you would be tearing him a new one, and telling him to get off his high horse and quite blaming the equipment.

My point is Gordy's "review" consisted of some good analysis sprinkled in with false statements and whining about the equipment while maintaining an attitude that he is such a good rider it couldn't be him.

I don't like elitist posters or reviewers, and I'll call bull**** when I see it. You don't like it, then don't read my post :o

[FTA2R]

Hi All,

sometimes I feel as if this site reeks of a negative vibe, even though it's clearly the most popular and well organized hardbooter site. can we just stop this , please, as I believe Fin requested earlier. I feel this way re: this thread.

I wish I never responded to this thread b/c I keep getting email and each email seems to be closer to making this another war. I have no problem with anyone.

can we all just relax a little and stop negatively critisizing other people and their articles, opinions, skills, comments, or whatever else can be critisized. I don't know if any anti Bordy comments are b/c he has stirred the pot here before, but if they are, who the hell cares. just let it go. as was stated during the CMC debacle, this is no way to attract new riders. can we funnel all of this "energy" toward attracting new riders and/or educating people about alpine.


---
Barry

[tilledog]

Billy reviewed the Swoard. We posted it. He has tried to answer all questions in a civilized manner. It's just His opinion. That's all. If you want to get Personal with Billy though, take it up with him with an email, not on Bomber. ( he loves to type )


Thanks,
Davo

[lonerider]

Thank you for taking a lot of time out to answer my questions. To start off yes I mainly just perplexed by how much different your viewpoint is compared to other people's reviews - I know two people locally who own the board an like it and most of the reviews on BOL seem very positive. The main thing is that I'm just curious (and bored with snow here).

I admit that could be a little bit of "forced love" due to the high price of that board, I find it surprising that your review of it would be so negative so as be almost contemptuous of all Swoard owners in their judgement and ability level. All of this based on four runs on the board, no these maybe big mountain Utah runs instead of short tiny Tahoe local mountain runs... but despite your unquestioned ability and experience - I am just a tiny bit skeptical because of it. I apologize if my questioning style seems more like an inquistion... I just am very curious.


Originally posted by Bordy
Lone rider has several questions so I’ll try me best to answer find its “sweet spot’ on my own and I believe I tried my best and did so in the length of time I rode the Board.


I do not question you ability and your intent to try to figure out the board. I just wonder if you had ridden the board a bit more than the four runs you did would let you discover the "sweet spot" of balance on the board. I understand you feel that is not so and I accept it, it's just I'm having trouble putting myself in your perspective because of the wide gap in ability and experience.

I shall "try" to keep my questions limited so as not to waste too much of your time. Thank again so very much for giving well-thought out honest answers (and please ignore anyone trying to bait you into a shouting match).



I have been following and discussing the EC style for some time I am familiar with the EC site and have seen the video “Opus”. The day I rode the Swoard It preformed as a wrote in the review. Also if the Nose of the board is flapping wildly under the skilled feet of the EC founders then how can it be a true carve? And why is it so hard to understand it did the same under my feet?


I'm not saying that I have trouble believing the board under your feet wasn't flapping or that you weren't able to prevent the board from washing out. I am saying I have trouble believing you when you imply that "no one" would be able to use the board and make a high speed turn without having it wash out.

So I went back to the video to review (since I had seen it months ago). So in Opus2 (ExtremeDreamer) you get some noticeble nose "flapping" as I describe it at around 2:02, 2:45 and 4:24, yet the riders in the video seem to be able to ride through the bumpiness and pull out of their body-dragging slide without washing out. And they look like they are going decently fast... admitted on wide perfectly groomed slopes... maybe that's was your problem as the warm soft snow is too sloppy for eurocarving? Maybe I'm reaching... but I just trying to find the missing link between what I see on the Opus2 video and your experiences on the four runs you took on the Swoard why you very "final" judgement of the Swoard. In which you didn't really make many allowances for possible learning curve issues or poor slope conditions (I know the snow didn't sound bad at all... but who knows)



I am really about a stance and form that starts the turn with the nose, and finishes at the tail. I am happy to do what ever it takes in the middle, to make the turn happen with as much control and edge grip as possible. I think the differences between my experiences and the hardcore ECers may be my lack of time on a EC specific board like the swoard and since this is the first product of its type I think its still a very fair review. I have however spent years adjusting many riding styles to board shapes and feel the adjustments needed to ride the swoard where well within my ability.


It's hard for me to tell, but it doesn't look like EC rider throw much weight on the nose of the board at all (Nils can you clarify?). It seems like they start the turn just in front of the bindings and roll back towards the tail quickly (based on Opus2 video). Does it look like that to you?

Again... I don't want this thread to become non-productive flame war. So I would like to thank you again for answering my questions despite my skeptical nature and not baited by those who disagree with your viewpoint, but don't seek to challenge your opinion in a diplomatic and mature way.

[Hugh]

Finally, a BOL topic worth reading and it was borrowed from another site :D

Rock on with the board review debate. Bordy comes back with a tight response to defend/support his points, nice job.

Conclusion: buy or borrow a Sword, ride it hard and review it. Please don't come in here with mind dribble Q&A, when you don't have ANY experience with the product.

How about hearing from the riders that love this board...

out

[nigelc]

I have been actively involved with sailing at a reasonable level for 20 years. I have long since stopped reading reviews of yachts as they so often did not coincide with my experience of the same products. This long held conviction was recently confirmed to me by an internationally regaded american freind when his review of a yacht for the most prominent U.S. cruising yacht magazine was rejected because"it did not contain enough positives". He has told me privately that the yacht in question was an overpriced shoddily built deathtrap.

Long live the honest opinion - those I agree with and those I don't.

[fivat]

To everyone:
if you test a Swoard, please choose only the proper Swoard.


I hate the Swoard 175H and 175M, hehe ;) I love the 168H...


Read my reply to Bordy here:
http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6408&highlight=#6408


Patrice Fivat

[Jack Michaud]

Come on. Bordy is an experienced racer and carver. Maybe you should try to disect the article and figure out why he reached his conclusions, rather than hastily dismissing it as stupid. I have to wonder if the snow conditions played a part. Despite what I read as an overall "thumbs down" from that review, I am still interested to try a Swoard on some good cord (like in the ec movies) and see for myself. Deciding the board sucks after reading a review from one guy riding a board one day in one set of conditions, well, that would be... not so bright.

[~tb]

First of all, Bordy, applause on the review. Call it how you see it.

Secondly, everyone else, read the review, realize its one persons oppinion as to how the board worked for him. Take it with a grain of salt, and develop your own oppinion. The madd 158 and me for example. . . just DONT work together. I see other people do incredible things with that board and am blown away, but put me on a 158, and I ride and look like $%^@!

Thirdly . . . I would like to introduce the Bobb Buggs (I believe hes the one that told this to me) Freak Factor theory. . . There are some "Freaks" out there . . . Freaks of nature, that seem to be able to do just about anything, on just about any piece of equipment you hand them. Truly impressive to see. These individuals could sell you any board they wanted, because they could go out on an old P.O.S. rip it up, and tell you it was the board that was that good, and you would buy it! Patrice and Jacque are THAT good. Love him or hate him . . . CMC is THAT good. John Gilmour . . . is that good. To shoot down one mans honest review, because of video you have seen does not make his review garbage, especially if you realize, that those individuals in the videos would look that good, riding any one of these:
. http://www.oldsnowboards.com/vintage_alpine_gallery/images/Asym%20Line%20up%20tagged%202.jpg

Just my 2 cents! Lets keep it civil. The snow is almost here.

~tb

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Barry
Hi All,

sometimes I feel as if this site reeks of a negative vibe

On my motorcycle list we have a term for the funk that descends upon the list over the winter months when people can't ride and are more likely to snipe at each other online: PMS - parked motorcycle syndrome.

It's early fall, and we're all jonesing. Not that it excuses anybody to get pissy, but it's a fact of life.

[nils]

I personnaly think bordy's review was fair and nicely written, even if I do not agree with all his conclusions...The fact that he was using a board not for his size and weight might have done a lot in the feel he had on the board! remember that its not a matter of beeing undergunned, or getting the big guy board to be cool, its just that we made whole the boards behave the same... It means the 161Soft has the same behaviour as the 175H, providing they are ridden by the guy with the matching size/weight.
The flexes are designed for each rider for the best EC compromise / experience on soft snow and very hard pack... It means people do not choose the board themselves, but we basically dictate what to ride in order for everyone to have the same pleasure as we do... Of course I remember at the SES a few riders did insist: "I want a 175" because i'm riding a DonCoiler 185..." and of course they were not as thrilled by their test as if they had tried the proper 168M for their size! Or same thing happened when the rider did not want to let go his 65° angles and 6° canting for the time of the test...

Bordy tried the board with the hardest flex and longest size on softer snow, and found it couldn't get fast...strange because usually when a guy using normally a 168 gets on the 175 he finds the flex and length more stable at speeds!

Yes extremecarving is a niche, but we ( and his review showed the same) believe the board we make is way more versatile than a pure race board... then its a question of choice for the rider, on what he likes, wants etc...Personnaly i like cruising laying turns, doing small jumps here and then, even cross a small pow field and i could not do it with ease on my former proton 172...I like the precision you have on a race deck; but for me they lack versatility!

As for the nose behaviour: the nose particular shape and scoop is designed to initiate the turn, force the board to carve the way its designed too, but at the same time not locking the turn...On the vids, especially on the extremecarving movie ( 1st one, on a backside by patrice in slow motion) we can see the way the nose guides the board through various snow conditions without ever having the back ( rider+board) loose that edge ).. The nose is basically soft with the carbon matrix that guides it and forces it to stick back to the snow after a bump for example... I personnaly think it is a good quality to have the nose act as a bumper, not a trampoline ( you don't want to loose an edge when u do EC turns on steep slopes)..

Backside the nose tends to always want to go uphill, especially when the rider is not using the good rotation technique, and the balance of the rider is tricky because if too much on the tail, the edge will chatter and loose edge... its basically the riders fault each time! Because believe me, when you follow Pat's tracks, the cut is clean, wide in the center of the turn, but not really what i'd call a slide! Everytime my backside edge chatters, i Know its because I forgot to concentrate on the turn! ( a trick is to get the back arm to reach for the opposite side of the stomach: this forces a rotation!)...

Nils

[Derf]

I read Bordy's review, and from what I could tell, he was trying to love the board and have fun with it. He wanted to make it work. But it didn't. I have never seen Bordy ride nor have I ever met him, so I can't say anything about his riding or his character. But he is clearly not bashing the EC guys and their board on purpose, he's just giving his honest opinion.

Derf

[Bordy]

Patrice,

Thanks for the honest beta about your board and the differences in size. I would love to ride the 68H. However I have no plans to travel to Europe this year. I will keep an eye out for anyone sporting a Swoard as I do see a few every year here in the states. I am sure I will get a chance to ride one again. My quiver does range in size from 149s up to 195s and up I ride a lot of different sizes and shapes And felt as though I really gave the Swoard a fair ride.

It may also be important to note that in the review I stated the board became unstable in the upper 20s that means around 40-45 km/h the board began to react different and perform unlike it did at the slower speeds.

Everyone else.

I also gave several very positive remarks regarding the Swoard that have of course been overlooked on the BOL site, that many of your EC posters have been kind enough to point out. I have not ridden a large amount of high end hand made carving product from Europe and think it is only fair to mention the large difference in performance between a handmade North American world cup race stock product and the Swoard. After all most High end carvers in the states are looking to Donek, Proir, and Coiler as their board suppliers and are, as I was, expecting a similar amount of stability and dampness at speed from the Swoard as well, only it was not quite there yet. I do believe the swoard fills a niche you have done a great job in developing and believe the Review clearly stated that. I as a rider I thank you and your EC crew for striving to keep Hardbooting innovative and fresh, the swoard defiantly cuts the cord unlike any other product out there and due to its width allows some interesting riding style and technique. I do honestly feel there are other alpine boards out there that hold a better carved turn at much higher speeds and it would be unfair as an unbiased reviewer not to include that info. Also my closing statement of some free ride models that I rode on the same hill as the swoard on the same or following day, although unwelcome on either site reflect the overall stability of several top freeride sticks with a wide waist that I felt held up to the riding characteristics of the swoard some times even maintaining a better flex pattern within the speed limits of each product. It is fare to say the swoard can be ridden harder than any twin tip small radius free ride board, basied on shape and flex alone but when you include the control, stability, and dampness of many high end free ride sticks that do not display the nose bounce or tail fold like the swoard did in the same condition at speed should be normal considering the budget many large company invest into R&D.


Thank you for visiting Hardbooter.com and reading the reveiw. I have also posted reviews about other products that have not created such a buzz online I hope you enjoyed them also and welcome any feedback.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks for your responses, Billy. Like any review, the writer has to call it like he sees it and the reader has to take it in context. I think people have all the pertinent facts and can make their own minds up now.

I'm looking forward to more reviews from you, that section in your site is a little thin yet. I did find both of the other reviews very informative (one on Thermoflex liners, the other on Raichle/Deeluxe boots), I especially liked how they covered the whole product line rather than just one item. I wasn't aware of all the development history with the Thermoflex.

As you've ridden so many other boards, have you considered writing similar review pieces with comments on a number of boards in one product line? That would be very helpful.

[Vahur]

Seems like Jack had nothing to do and posted link to Bordy's review under provocative subject title to create heated debate. But unfortunately for him neither Bordy nor Swoard team fell on it :D
Anyway, this Swoard review is first board review on hardbooters and I do believe, that if there were more reviews, then all the readers would have accustomed to straightforward and no-salesman-bull**** opinion from him and accepted this without much ado. But now bored from long lack of winter on northern hemisphere carvers got mad like dogs on heated summer day.
I'm happy to own Swoard and happy, that Bordy liked this board on slow-to-him (aka Ride the Edge) speeds, this is good enough to me. And if someone can prove I'm wrong by donating better board then I'm ready to change my opinion :D
And bottom line: do not attack people, but their opinions! No need to get personal.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Bordy
Patrice,
I also gave several very positive remarks regarding the Swoard that have of course been overlooked on the BOL site, that many of your EC posters have been kind enough to point out. I have not ridden a large amount of high end hand made carving product from Europe and think it is only fair to mention the large difference in performance between a handmade North American world cup race stock product and the Swoard. After all most High end carvers in the states are looking to Donek, Proir, and Coiler as their board suppliers and are, as I was, expecting a similar amount of stability and dampness at speed from the Swoard as well, only it was not quite there yet. I do believe the swoard fills a niche you have done a great job in developing and believe the Review clearly stated that. I as a rider I thank you and your EC crew for striving to keep Hardbooting innovative and fresh, the swoard defiantly cuts the cord unlike any other product out there and due to its width allows some interesting riding style and technique. I do honestly feel there are other alpine boards out there that hold a better carved turn at much higher speeds and it would be unfair as an unbiased reviewer not to include that info. Also my closing statement of some free ride models that I rode on the same hill as the swoard on the same or following day, although unwelcome on either site reflect the overall stability of several top freeride sticks with a wide waist that I felt held up to the riding characteristics of the swoard some times even maintaining a better flex pattern within the speed limits of each product. It is fare to say the swoard can be ridden harder than any twin tip small radius free ride board, basied on shape and flex alone but when you include the control, stability, and dampness of many high end free ride sticks that do not display the nose bounce or tail fold like the swoard did in the same condition at speed should be normal considering the budget many large company invest into R&D.


Thank you for visiting Hardbooter.com and reading the reveiw. I have also posted reviews about other products that have not created such a buzz online I hope you enjoyed them also and welcome any feedback.

Thanks again for letting us pick you brain. With you added commentary, I think I have all the information I wanted as Neil said.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Vahur
Seems like Jack had nothing to do and posted link to Bordy's review under provocative subject title to create heated debate. But unfortunately for him neither Bordy nor Swoard team fell on it

Actually I was hoping we'd have the exact discussion that has now taken place.

[eddie]

Nice discussion. I really enjoyed it!

;)

[fivat]

Hi Bordy,

Thanks for your reply and your politeness. Yes, your review is long and contains also positive remarks. At start I even told to myself: "Ah, finally a less good review than the ones from other riders" :D However the words "leave the Swoard in the scabbard" are not nice and people who don't read the posts in detail will focus only on this.

Here are two problems in my opinion:

1) You tested a board (175H) that is made (width, flex, torsional stiffness) for riders who are +84 kilos (some of our customers are 100 kilos!) and +181 cm. You should have used a 168H or even a 168M... It's important. Even if you are used to long boards from other brands (that are made for your weight and that are not so wide), the Swoard 175H is absolutely not designed for your weight and size, whatever your skill is.

I have no doubt that you are honest and sincere. But imagine that I test a board which doesn't really suits to me: a small and too soft 154 board from another brand. I would say that I don't like some points, and could write honestly and sincerely why in details.

I know the guy (Jean-Paul Ohaco from Chile) who lent you the board. I exchanged some e-mails with him a few months ago. His order was a mistake: he should have bought a 168H, not a 175H. This summer (winter in South America) we sent him the proper board, and he told me that he really liked it, while he had problems of course with the 175H (he disliked it!). On 18th August 2004 he writes about the 168H: "This board works really good".

2) You have tested the board for only a half day apparently when you met Jean-Paul Ohaco at the lift. As explained on the Website, it may take 1-2 days for someone to get used to the Swoard, and especially to the EC technique (developed for this board, thanks to this board). Fortunately people feel already at start the potential of the Swoard. Last season at the Extremecarving Session (ECS '04) it was really funny to see how some testers progressed a lot in 3 days!

From a marketing point of view, the Swoard is a bad product ;) because one can't test it really in a few runs. One sees nothing special on the outside of the board (except the wideness), and one has to learn the EC technique explained on our Website.


To conclude, I would just mention that I was surprised to see on Harbooter.com that the only and first board review you have posted is the one about the Swoard 175H. You have mentioned you have a large quiver. So why have you not posted reviews about some of your boards you use a lot? And why do you make a review about a board that you have tested for a half day in wet snow, and that is note suited to you?

Sorry for my bad English, or my eventual misapprehensions.
Keep your Website growing! Thanks for what you do for the alpine scene.

Patrice Fivat

[Doug M]

I thought the review was well written.I have ridden hundreds of different boards and found the comments and comparisons to other boards well thought out.It does some things well and other things not so well.Good review.

Doug M

[Bordy]

Patrice,

It was not I who choose the post name, “ Bordy says leave the swaord in the scabbard” It was the threads originator. I closed my review with this statement>

“The wide width of the board has several benefits. It allows the rider to run less angle and provides better float in crud and variable conditions allowing the board to be more stable at slower speeds. However other boards provide the same rider angle options by simply incorporating lift on a more narrow board. The Swoard might be in your quill as a specialty board if you're not willing to ride softies but still want to ride the crud and pow and have a bit of money to burn. But if you are rider who prefers speed on groomers, this board will spend more time in your quiver than on the snow.”


I stand behind my review, and do truly feel I rode the swoard in the manner it was designed to be ridden. I am familiar with the web site and have followed its development. Often practicing the style on many types and shapes of boards. Using the same technique, stance and cant suggestions; as would any US rider prior to purchasing a Swoard. I will try to provide a link to EC style turn taken before and after I rode the swoard. I am confident that I felt the characteristic of your product.

I understand The board was not designed for my size and build and I am outside of the boards rider profile. But I ride many boards a year that are not designed around my size(Usually for some world cup rider) and feel as though I am able to form a professional opinion This is what I did in my review.

This was the first board review I wrote for Hardbooter.com and it got a good enough response to prompt me to write more. As a web sit we to are striving to provide a foundation for Alpine enthusiast. As a alpine rider Your board shape and riding style are only one part of the entire alpine sport.

I considered the review of your product as Hardbooters first review, exciting because the EC style is just that and many US riders are interested As I stated earlier I am happy to spend more time on the product perhaps even doing a seasonal review if provided with the proper gear. Look for more reviews on boards from skwals to Pow stick and all the carvey widths and styles to ride then in-between.

We at Hardbooter.com love the EC site and thank you for your honest response and rebuttals. We will keep our eyes out for any swoard we see and try to ride it.

Until then we will have to make do practicing our Extreme Carving on what we have.

a week before I rode the swoard same snow conditions Flat cant on a 20.5 waist wdth 26.0cm indy and minumum angles. (http://hardbooter.com/gallery/03-24-04/IMG01090) Try to get my EC on.....Board madd 158 first day on it 2nd run. (http://hardbooter.com/gallery/Presidents04/IMG00404)

[kjl]

Hey, I just want to put in my 2c with my opinion of the Swoard. Note that I am not a particularly good carver yet (2 years of carving, so ~100 days on hard boots, maybe ~30 on the Swoard), and more importantly I am not that good at the particular EC style, and Patrice can definitely attest to that.

That in mind, the way I see the EC style turn (the push-pull turn) is that it is essentially a very protracted cross-under transition that starts directly following the "scrape your nipples all over the snow" part of the turn, in an attempt to minimize the maximum G-force during the latter half of every turn. This in contrast to the other kind of turn that I do which I believe is the "bomber" style, which is to deal with that maximum G-force by assuming the most efficient position in terms of both shock absorption and angulation (i.e. very bent knees and as much angulation as possible in hips/shoulders/hip twist), and using those to combat the G-force directly.

The net result is more pressure at the end of the turn doing a regular turn and less pressure with the EC turn - hence the much softer flex in the Swoard than in my other carving board (Donek FC1).

This is how I feel the boards behave:

Doing a regular bomber-style (or whatever you call that) turn:
- Donek FC1 (171cm, 11.2m sidecut, stiffer flex): holds a turn better at high speeds. You set that edge in there and it just holds you in.
- Swoard (161m, 12.1m sidecut, softer flex): despite having a longer sidecut, starts to wash out a little earlier than the Donek.

Doing an EC-turn (really, really exaggerated push-pull cross-under turns):
- Donek FC1 : Fights me as I try to suck my knees into my chest - the board is stable and damp enough that it doesn't want to let me do anything like that. I can force the board to come back under me by first pushing hard first, and letting the rebound bring the board underneath me.
- Swoard : snappiness really encourages the board to suck back underneath me. Sometimes snaps me airborne. Really fun.


I actually really like riding both boards, but to me, I have a little more fun riding the Swoard, just because it seems a little snappier and more maneuverable. Maybe not as stable at high speeds? Definitely true for me, but I'm not very good at push-pulling when I'm scared... yet :) But I find that for doing fun free-carving, like doing very dynamic push-pulling or getting airs off of little lumps or ridges in the snow (or sometimes airs off of nothing, just because of the snappiness), it is a very rewarding ride.

[D-Sub]

are the styles really that different?

over at the EC forum, nils made a statement that "our" style is more race oriented...

Ive never raced in my entire life...

sometimes I think we think about this too much. too much tech, not enough soul...?

but I was just curious

here's nils post quoted:

"Bordy's review, added to a few experiences I made last season, lead me to the following reflexion: we are facing two totaly different styles: race (or bomber) style and EC style. There mechanical fonctionnings are so different (even in opposite) that they need totaly different equipment.

The goal of race style (as you can see in this video: www.stoked.at/clips/sigi_grabner.mpg) is to win GS races in any snow condition. My own (short) racing experience shows me that one condition to keep the edge on icy and shaking race track is to put the maximum possible pressure on the edge during the turn. Race riders are jumping on there board , squeezing there equipment the most they can. This is why they need stiff narrow board and stiff boots. I tried this style last season but had the feeling that my board was too wide and too soft. My boots seemed too soft too.

The goal of EC style is to laid out turns of course, but also to provide a cool liberty feeling and a maximum of fun. My own sensitivity leads me to a style that is between agressive hardbooting and the smooth freestyle you can see in the half-pipe. Of course, the equiment follows the same way: it is neither totaly stiff, nor totaly hard.

The way we ride is in opposition as race style: instead of providing huge forces on the edge, we trie to limit them. This is the reason of the "push-pull" turn. This is why we start our turns when the board is perpendicular to the slope.

The Swoard is optimized to our style. It is not recommended to race style (but I'm not sure it could'nt be efficient in a race with the proper technique...).
"

confused

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
are the styles really that different?

over at the EC forum, nils made a statement that "our" style is more race oriented...

Ive never raced in my entire life...


I tried to touch upon this in my post to Bordy, but I think it got muddled. I had the same thought at Nils in the different styles. I think what he means is that the "New England" style is very good for racing, because it allows for getting maximum edge pressure on the board to get the hardest, deepest trenches possible. This will allow to to carve hard tight turns between gates and change edges quickly to flip from side to side.

On the flipside (from what I understand), the EC style basically tries to maximize body lean and maintain only enough edge pressure it support the needed lean. Futhermore, the style inolve continuous are wide turns (as opposed to tighter, harder turns with with a more "streamlined" raceline). The super "circular" turns and the lack of "clearance" for gates make EC-style rather inefficient for getting down the mountain the fastest "i.e. racing." So it's not so much that all New England style rider are racers, it's that all EC-style riders are *not* racers and can never be efficient racers without changing their style, while a NE could run a race without much difference.

Just my thoughts

[D-Sub]

good way to look at it. thanks.

I cant help but feel like "they" look down on "us"

(altho, apparently "someone" thinks the converse is true according to the post he made in another thread)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
good way to look at it. thanks.

I cant help but feel like "they" look down on "us"

(altho, apparently "someone" thinks the converse is true according to the post he made in another thread)

To me it's a classic in-group / out-group dynamic - people have a general tendency to prefer their own group and shift their value system to match the features of their own group.

There was a psych experient done in the 1950's called the Robber's Camp (http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulebreaker/1999/rulebreaker990708.htm) had interesting results.

Another one (forgot the name) which they randomly gave half the people in the study black wristband - automatically the black wrist banded group congregated together in the "waiting" room. When the testers formed evenly "mixed" groups and gave them team exercises... later each person always subconsciously rated the performance/contribution of people in the same "faction" higher than the "other" group, even though the wristbands were actually randomly given.

[nils]

You quoted Jacques, not me :)

And i'm not sure its about "we're right, you're wrong stuff, or we're better you're lame either..." We prefer to develop our extra rotation style, but basically we do it for fun purposes, not to gain an eventual glory, or make a point... On the snow you are alone with your board, and we want to make certain turns that need that particular style to be performed....
That's basically it! If i wanted to go faster, i'd surely use another technique and a narrower board!

:D
Nils

[D-Sub]

nils, your attitude is A++++++ all the way, my man. respect. 100%

there are a few cats on your site that are far too defensive though. Obviously you have no control over that and it has zero to do with you

didnt mean to hint at it. and if I got the quote wrong, my bad

if we were talking in person Id shake your hand though, simply for the level of maturity and tact youve displayed since Bordy's "attack" was pointed out.

[skywalker]

...which is right for Swizerland, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Poland, Chech Republic and Estlonia.


Obviously you have no control over that

well, dear D-Sub. Would be really bad, if he had. Just think about ;)

[skywalker]

Just wanted to mention the most common nationalties in the EC-forum. Of course there are others, too ;)

[D-Sub]

my man. I wasnt saying that he SHOULD control anything.

you guys are way too much on the offense! or is it defense?

[skywalker]

Hi,

First of all I want to say: I don't think, there is ANY UP or DOWN in snowboarding styles. There may be a "I prefer" or "doesn't feel good to me", but no good or bad. And yes, I think there is some in group / out group dynamics in carving, especially in this thread. And I think we should rather fight this than manifest it :rolleyes: Because on both sides of the Atlantic (and the Pacific too ;)) there are great riders and really nice guys. And for sure it's a lot of fun meeting them and sharing the slopes.

And I don't think there is that much difference between the styles... and there can't be. Because no one of us is totally in one style, even if you could separate it in this way. I think everyone is only in his own style, influenced by others, but totally individual. I've been riding for some years now, trying different board types and different styles. And most of them have their advantages and disadvantages. And all of them share the same Physics.

Even more: IMHO There is no necessary depending of riding style and board. There is no problem riding J & P's rotation style with a narrow board, and also not really a problem with any other style on a wider board. Many really good guys did for many years at the beginning of alpine snowboarding. So why finding differences and not finding things in common?! only my humble opinion.

[skywalker]

Hey D-Sub,


you guys are way too much on the offense! or is it defense

Speaking only for myself, not a group ;)
Mostly ever this quoted sentence also fit's to the guy it comes from ;). I think, in this thread both sides are, so we should stop arguing about ist, o.k.? Funny thing about it is: When I read again the whole thread, I think there are not that many differences at all.

Have a nice wekend ;)

Tom

[boogieman]

Did anyone ever try a swoard and are they verry different to other boards or is it just the style they have that allows them to go as low as they go (jaques rillet and patrice frivet)?

[skywalker]

Hi,

yes, I did. Maybe more than anybody else, who doesn't own one. See my post on extremecarving.com: http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=985&start=45

In fact, I don't think there are big differences to other boards. I even think, it feels a little bit old-fashioned, which doesn't need to be negative!! The big difference comes from many details, which allowed me to do the deepest and especially best feeling backside ever. Of course this has to do with the width, but also with the overall behaviour of the board. Maybe one could say, that it looks and feels almost like a conventially made board of superior detail quality. A board with great edge grip, snappy turn initialization and a super secure feeling.

Hope, this answer could help you!

[Hans]

Originally posted by boogieman
Did anyone ever try a swoard and are they verry different to other boards or is it just the style they have that allows them to go as low as they go (jaques rillet and patrice frivet)?

Yes, I own a SWOARD, a 168 Hard number 0067.
At first the SWOARD is made for extremecarving. And yes with not so much technique like me you can easily lay down some nice carves at low and fast speeds in steep or less steep terrain in a few houres time. Just do this with the recommended push and pull technique as described at www.swoard.com. The SWOARD is just a board which is in a nichemarket of snowboarding. You like it a lot, or you don't like extremecarving at all. Besides extremecarving, the board can handle a lot more versatile terrain, like bumps, soft snow and hardpack for example. There are other boards which are better in soft snow, there are other boards which are better suitable for bumps, but hey, this board can do all things good, and extremecarving at the best. I find the push and pull technique in combination with laying down carves the nicest carvy thing to do and to see. But that's all personal of course. Every one do his own thing and is enjoying oneselves in this (snowboarding)world.

Greets, Hans.