I SURVIVED! (now teh question start...) :)

[monkeyfarm]

First time on hard boots!

After assembling the bare minimum of gear (i.e. new Snow Pro Race bindings and new UPZ RC10's off eBay, bolted to my regular Never Summer freeride/all mountain board (not an alpine board) I headed out to Alpine (seemed appropriate :)) Meadows in Tahoe today. (Used alpine board is on the way, but I was impatient so binding switch and voila!)

After the first hour of wishing someone would do a field amputation of my feet because they hurt so badly, I started getting the hang of it. I can see why people like large SCR's an narrow boards though.

Took a while to get a stance that seemed to work. I tried out the default 3deg front cant and an extra 3deg (6 deg. total)rear cant and a heel-lift in back. Settled on binding angles of 45deg. front angle and a 35 deg. rear (I tried both @ 45 and it felt like my back knee was going to self-destruct... Probably because I'm terminally duck footed).

I was able to get into that, "tuck the rear knee into the front knee" stance and "sit" back and I could actually feel it working. Pretty awesome.

I was able to "carve" (yes, in quotes:cool:) when the slope was just right.

But here's my first big question... I've been riding softies for years and at the end of the day it's always my rear (right) thigh that gives out. With this new hardboot thang my front (left) thigh was the first to go, and my right felt fine.

This seems odd to me as I could swear that I was using my rear more to hold myself up as I tucked, but nope... My front leg was the one that died.

So is this normal? Front leg getting more use? Or could this indicate that I need to do something with my setup or technique?

These boots have more adjustment options than I can even begin to make sense of.

[SteveInOregon]

HELLOooo-o-o-oooooooo ( echo in the newbee room )

Welcome to the Nu-B section aka WannaCarver section of BOL .

I thought I was all alone, I am only a few weeks & a half dozen trips ahead of You.

I just switched from long all mountain board that I had plates on beginning Xmas day this last Dec and now to my new ( older used) race carve stick that I now have 2 short outings on it and I too didn't like the parallel 45/45 either and I am not even a duck or monkey foot.

It will be interesting to read the response of the vet carve crew on the tiered burning leg question of yours.

In my own limited experience I noticed if 1) my boot tops were to loose the sharpness of my turn initiation suffered, 2) If I was tense and trying to muscle the board my legs whould burn out fast, 3) If I didn't stretch and warm up in the lodge or parking lot 1st I would burn out fast, & 4) my Cant & Lift was flat my legs & joints would also strugglke to compensate.

Take Care

(the longer the better, that's not what she said, its what the snow told me)
:lol:

[carvedog]

First time on hard boots!

After assembling the bare minimum of gear (i.e. new Snow Pro Race bindings and new UPZ RC10's off eBay, bolted to my regular Never Summer freeride/all mountain board (not an alpine board) I headed out to Alpine (seemed appropriate :)) Meadows in Tahoe today. (Used alpine board is on the way, but I was impatient so binding switch and voila!)

After the first hour of wishing someone would do a field amputation of my feet because they hurt so badly, I started getting the hang of it. I can see why people like large SCR's an narrow boards though.

Took a while to get a stance that seemed to work. I tried out the default 3deg front cant and an extra 3deg (6 deg. total)rear cant and a heel-lift in back. Settled on binding angles of 45deg. front angle and a 35 deg. rear (I tried both @ 45 and it felt like my back knee was going to self-destruct... Probably because I'm terminally duck footed).

I was able to get into that, "tuck the rear knee into the front knee" stance and "sit" back and I could actually feel it working. Pretty awesome.

I was able to "carve" (yes, in quotes:cool:) when the slope was just right.

But here's my first big question... I've been riding softies for years and at the end of the day it's always my rear (right) thigh that gives out. With this new hardboot thang my front (left) thigh was the first to go, and my right felt fine.

This seems odd to me as I could swear that I was using my rear more to hold myself up as I tucked, but nope... My front leg was the one that died.

So is this normal? Front leg getting more use? Or could this indicate that I need to do something with my setup or technique?

These boots have more adjustment options than I can even begin to make sense of.

Welcome.

Stand up.

That is all.

[emorris]

I just started riding an alpine board in December '09. I had the same issue with my front leg burning. I was advised to add toe lift and it did the trick.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27403

I had started out with just heel lift and a pretty flat front binding. The toe lift was like magic for me.

I started on a Burton AMP 5.3 but switched to a SIMS Premium 167. I thought I would have a hard time with the length, ( I'm 5'7 and about 135#) but it's been fine. It just seems that I have to be really moving quite fast to get the edge to lock in. But when it does, it is so cool...

[carvedog]

Ok that was kind of a joke.

I think you are overthinking this a bit.

I ride flat with straight up cuffs on my boots and spend as much time as reasonable trying to stand up when carving. I mean full tall stretch your spine out stand up.

That you have a leg killing you means you are doing it wrong.
Not wrong maybe but you are not letting that leg breathe. Meaning you are keeping it flexed so you can't move air in and physio stuff I am not going to pretend to know all about.

But the angles, cants and stuff......too much dicking around. Run what you brung. I ride everything from 25F/20R to 68/65 and have my all mtn boards setup at 45/45. I don't really care to much about that stuff. I just try to get my boots inside the edge of the board a tiny bit and then go ride.

for a beginner I would think a 3 in the front and flat in the back would be fine. Anything more than that and I think you are stroking yourself.

Work on relaxing "up" during every turn at some point and dropping fast when ready to turn..

Have fun and seriously welcome.

[SteveInOregon]

Welcome.

Stand up.

That is all.
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quote: "stand up"

THAT'S IT, Pure GENIUS, :eek: .

Its true, my "norm" carves are based on not tucking or crouching al tight & flexed like I am trying to do the speed limbo,lol

[Hotbeans]

I can only relate my own experience that if my front leg is getting hammered, then either i need to increase the front binding lift (thereby providing more support via the front cuff of the boot) or my bindings are too far back on the board (having to severely weight the front of the board to get the turn initiation I want).
Vice-versa, if my rear leg is flaming out, then I'm riding the back of the board, usually trying to compensate for a neutral stance that is too far forward.
Orrrrr...I'm just riding the nose of the board compensating for lack of angulation.
If I were you, I'd leave the set-up alone until i was confident that, with a neutral stance and getting the board up on edge, either turn initiation wasn't happing fast enough (bindings too far back), or the board was twitchy and initiating a carve well enough, but my boot cuff wasnt providing the support needed..
Some people (myself included) tinker with this off and on until the voice says
"just freakin' ride"

[kjl]

First time on hard boots!

After assembling the bare minimum of gear (i.e. new Snow Pro Race bindings and new UPZ RC10's off eBay, bolted to my regular Never Summer freeride/all mountain board (not an alpine board) I headed out to Alpine (seemed appropriate :)) Meadows in Tahoe today. (Used alpine board is on the way, but I was impatient so binding switch and voila!)

Heh, nice - I actually learned with hardboots and hard bindings on a Never Summer Premier like 7 years ago! Yes, the sidecut radius of that board is pretty tight, but I was able to learn stuff on it until I decided to take the plunge and get a board, too.


After the first hour of wishing someone would do a field amputation of my feet because they hurt so badly, I started getting the hang of it. I can see why people like large SCR's an narrow boards though.

If your toes are getting smashed up against the front of the boot, cranking the crap out of the ankle and shin buckles to hold your feet back may help. In general, I feel the snugger the boot the less it hurts.


So is this normal? Front leg getting more use? Or could this indicate that I need to do something with my setup or technique?

I wouldn't sweat the setup or the technique. On day 1 you were probably tense, stiff, awkward, clumsy, etc. (just guessing from my experience), making weird things hurt. I would just get out there and get comfortable on the board, and at some point your leg will stop killing you. But to answer your question, it depends who you ask, but carvers generally put more weight on their front foot than a skiddy softbooter normally would, and so some carvers have the front leg go tired first. Doesn't happen to me, personally, but it certainly happens to some. But like I said before, I bet it's just because you're being awkward at this early stage.

I actually disagree with carvedog - I have a pretty stand-up carve now (sometimes), but I think at the beginner stages it was useful to get low. Bending the knees increases your ability to deal with "stuff" like bumps or imperfections in your technique, and also makes it easier to commit to initiating a carved turn. Standing up and relaxing is something that's easier done when you're comfortable with how carves feel and you know it's going to work on a given slope and conditions and speed, etc..

[carvedog]

I actually disagree with carvedog - I have a pretty stand-up carve now (sometimes), but I think at the beginner stages it was useful to get low. Bending the knees increases your ability to deal with "stuff" like bumps or imperfections in your technique, and also makes it easier to commit to initiating a carved turn. Standing up and relaxing is something that's easier done when you're comfortable with how carves feel and you know it's going to work on a given slope and conditions and speed, etc..

Whhhhhaaaaatttttt???



Just kidding.


You should be able to get pretty tall at some point though. Just to remind yourself to relax and uncurl your toes. Pretty sure some of your foot pain is from gripping with your toes. Try to stretch them out too.
It's ok to ride hunched over, but that will tax your quads for sure. Try stretching it out a bit. Being tall gives you someplace to "go" to, when you need to absorb some uneven terrain or ice.

Not saying to stay tall all the time. I spend too much time getting balled up so I need to think tall and relax.

And Ken I think you are pretty spot on with your descriptions and suggestions in all I have read. Seriously. :biggthump

[two_ravens]

As a relatively new carver, I can only tell you my experience... I think there is some truth to the idea that you can overthink the stance issues. But then again I struggled for 2 full seasons with my front quads just totally on fire and always torched after just a few runs. Was running with flat front foot and 6 degree rear heel lift - a month ago finally decided to change that, and went with 3 degree heel lift - HOLY COW!!! Totally different ride, and now my legs feel fairly equally used and my carving suddenly improved 1000%. Tried a few other options too, but found that just that 3 degree change opened new worlds.

So that's just what is working for me.

And I agree with kjl - I found that getting low and forward was easier to start with - for one thing, it doesn't hurt so much when I fall, because I'm already most of the way there! :) But that's just for turning.

A little exercise that helped get me feel more comfortable on the board was to find a nice mellow slope and hop a bunch - still do that at the top of the lift sometimes. Seems to help me feel centered on the board and work some of the kinks out.

Have fun! :D

[kjl]

It's ok to ride hunched over, but that will tax your quads for sure. Try stretching it out a bit. Being tall gives you someplace to "go" to, when you need to absorb some uneven terrain or ice.

Not saying to stay tall all the time. I spend too much time getting balled up so I need to think tall and relax.

Yeah, totally agree - in a full "butt-on-boots" tuck you got nowhere to go, so being taller than that for maximum ability to crunch or stretch as the conditions require is key for sure. If you look at both our avatars I think we both have a pretty healthy stretch in our carves :)

[teach]

I'm new too, and have the tired front leg problem. I think it might be the result of trying to use mainly ankles to get on edge (esp. in crowds). This is very natural for me as a skater (I ride extremely loose), and it's how I ride with lower angles. But it gets less and less efficient as the angle goes up; at 45 I'm fine, 50 is starting to tax it and 55 is too high for this to work other than skidding. The effort of making it work (or skidding) seems to be what tires my leg out. I've decided the key is to find times where the hill is uncrowded so I can focus on carving properly and not worry about avoiding people; otherwise I revert to the tiring skateboard style.

I find that small changes in stance can make a big difference. But small changes in shoes make the difference between a swollen knee or aching knees and more or less normal knees for me, so I'm not surprised. Outward cant on the front at least helps me a lot, possibly because it compensates for foot issues (orthotics on the cheap?).

[Perlyshko]

That is almost a reflection of my first rides!!!!With the only difference in snowboard - I went straight to hardboard freeride-freecarve from SG. Being sure in my experience I went straight to maximum angles and ended with huge pain in my shins, feet, legs that kept reminding of itself through the whole week of snowboarding. This year is already the second season I am on my SG with UPZRS10 and Titanium Intec by F2. And finally, my feet do not hurt anymore, but ONLY and ONLY when I ride correct.

Frankly, to prolong survivability of my feet during the ride I went back with binding settings: started this season with 45 front and 25 rear and after New Year I was already back to 45 and 35 respectively! Now I am purely fine even with the maximum lock of my boots.

Well, when one of my leg gets tired(I still make mistakes), I give some rest via a longer turns to the opposite. I am goofy, so if my front leg is tired, I go backside turn... If I remember correct.

And one more option - to chase Hardbooters on the slope. I admit, I keep following and watching them. The fastest ones require some speed and timely manoeuvring from my side - during which pain disappears. :biggthump

You need to play with boots, binding and stance adjustment to find the most comfortable position for yourself and then to learn how to ride correct. It will come, believe me.

[philw]

I'm sure there's some good advice there. I picked up on:


First time on hard boots!
I was able to get into that, "tuck the rear knee into the front knee" stance and "sit" back and I could actually feel it working.

Mmm, without looking it's hard to be sure, but you don't want your knees to be pushed together at all - that's way old school and no more appropriate in hard boots today than in soft. You'll still see some people riding both that way, but it's not the way to go really. Of course you may not mean this.

Sitting back... again, if you mean sitting back then ya don't want to do that either, you need to ride centred. But if you mean that your legs are slightly bent in the normal riding position, then it's all good.

Probably the experiences of recent converts are more useful than anything I can add..

[jtslalom]

But here's my first big question... I've been riding softies for years and at the end of the day it's always my rear (right) thigh that gives out. With this new hardboot thang my front (left) thigh was the first to go, and my right felt fine.

This seems odd to me as I could swear that I was using my rear more to hold myself up as I tucked, but nope... My front leg was the one that died.

So is this normal? Front leg getting more use? Or could this indicate that I need to do something with my setup or technique?

These boots have more adjustment options than I can even begin to make sense of.

Monkeyfarm,
Get out another 10 times and then see what hurts. It's difficult to say what you are doing right or wrong only after one day of riding. It could be anything at this point. I went through 3 different manufacturers of hard boots and all 3 fit different. I even had two differnet types of Burton hard boots and they both fit a little different. In general I found that if you have the right size for your foot and after some time the inner liner will start to mold around your foot nicely. It may take a bit of boot fitting to get this but I don't think you should try anything before you have had some time out on the snow.

I now ride soft boots exclusively and my back leg generally feels a little more burning when compared to my front but this was the same thing when hard riding. Again I would give it a few more days before you make any jugements on your setup or technique. Try to ride with some one who has been riding for a while or better yet take a lesson with a hard booter and ask questions. Good Luck

[tex1230]

Monkeyfarm,
Get out another 10 times and then see what hurts.

Best advice yet...

You can't diagnose the problem on the first day out.

Oh, and SEPARATE ZEE KNEES!
http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm

[monkeyfarm]

Man, thanks for all the feedback!

Interesting points on the knee/tuck issue. I could swear that I read here or on CarversAlmanac to do the whole "drive your back knee into the front knee" thing... I'll try not doing it next time and stand up straighter.

One thing that I know I need to do is get used to the feeling of letting the board do the work. A few times I could really feel the edges kick in and more than once it kinda scared the **** out of me! :) I'm so used to having to "work" to get the board to stick in snow.

In doing some more reading, I think I need to find some shallower slopes next time. I like Alpine, but there's not enough long runs that are flat enough for me to not crap my pants and focus on technique over survival. :)

As to the foot pain, I think I just need some arch supports. I get the same issue in soft boots, rollerblades, basicaly anything that involves weight across the entire foot and it never gets a chance to release, pronate, whatever.

I'm going to have to find an excuse to go up later this week!

[emorris]

Monkeyfarm,

You mentioned that your arches hurt. How do your boots fit? Do you have to crank down really hard to try to stop heel lift?

I have boots that started out too big. I tried cranking down really hard on the first two buckles on the bottom shell. My feet were screaming and I could not concentrate on riding. It went away when I loosened the buckles. But then I had heel lift. I went to a boot fitter (second time) and added volume under the heel and foam on both sides of the liner to grab my Achilles tendon. Now the boots are tight. My toes just rub the front of the liner when standing straight and no heel lift. Now I can concentrate on other things.

[SteveInOregon]

Man, thanks for all the feedback!

Interesting points on the knee/tuck issue. I could swear that I read here or on CarversAlmanac to do the whole "drive your back knee into the front knee" thing... I'll try not doing it next time and stand up straighter.

One thing that I know I need to do is get used to the feeling of letting the board do the work. A few times I could really feel the edges kick in and more than once it kinda scared the **** out of me! :) I'm so used to having to "work" to get the board to stick in snow.

In doing some more reading, I think I need to find some shallower slopes next time. I like Alpine, but there's not enough long runs that are flat enough for me to not crap my pants and focus on technique over survival. :)

As to the foot pain, I think I just need some arch supports. I get the same issue in soft boots, rollerblades, basicaly anything that involves weight across the entire foot and it never gets a chance to release, pronate, whatever.

I'm going to have to find an excuse to go up later this week!
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MY REPLY: Narrow bumpy steep slopes are a HUGE obstacle, a lot of these guys carve on world class wide and long groomers that many of us can only dream of, so their learning curve is fast because like you said they are not concentrating on survival and / or just staying up.

I am in the same boat as I live right next to a ski-board mountain ( I can be there in 15 min, "but" its not even close to the buttermilk runs a lot of the other guys are used to.

Guys who are raised on steep narrows like me are usually really good on bad groom , we can 4x4 thru anything, but we don't get enough time to refine our technique and carving is a "sweet snow science" that is best suited big & wide resorts. :)