Riding moguls

[Ladia]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls?:confused: What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.:eek:

[Sultan Guy]

Moguls...:AR15firin

You have to shift your weight front and back really fast, kind of like dancing or something. I can do it with some semblance of style but my legs get exhausted fast.

[RCrobar]

Hi Ladia

I asked a similar question in 2004, check out this past thread for some very interesting information:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3832&highlight=moguls

Hope this helps.
Rob

[queequeg]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls?:confused: What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.:eek:

I'm not super great at moguls but I got a lot better at them last season. I do the following, though I think this is the "easy way" of doing it - it has worked for me at low-to moderate speeds, on relatively easy mogul trails (but we're talking actual moguls here, not just little bumps). I have not had much luck with it on steep mogul runs ... I imagine a different technique or larger gonads are required there. One run and I'm done!

1. Ride straight up the mogul with my weight somewhat forward, sucking my legs up under me, such that my upper body does not rise with the board.

2. Turn when you reach the top of the mogul (or start just before). Point it at the next mogul you want to ride up, to the left or to the right of where you are. This is easy because your nose and tail are up in the air, so the board is free to rotate very easily. It is important to keep your weight forward, so that when you are on the top of the mogul your tail remains free - and so that you don't get hung up on it as you begin to descend.

3. Continue down the other side of the mogul, extending your legs and scraping the backside of the mogul somewhat with your uphill edge to control your descent (since your board is oriented somewhat sideways now) and prepare to make for the next mogul, keeping your weight forward.

4. Ride up the next mogul and repeat.

YMMV ... I just know this method got me started nicely.

[photodad2001]

Short board, narrow stance.

[slopetool]

I ride more bumps now than ever. All mountain board for me works best. Not to get off topic but remember the euro guy in Snowboarders In Exile that was the mogul champion? Moguls used to be a competitive sport in snowboarding! And this guy could bang the hell out of them. Auther Auey? something like that. Thank, God that phase is over. Steep groomers are the way to go! or mellow groomers very very fast. :eplus2:

[Loc]

Just do it like this:

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[bumpyride]

For my son and I, we use a short and stiff all mountain carver. One that has plenty of pop to jet you to the next bump. For us, the slimmer the waist the less leverage that works against you when you come off the side of the bumps. You can't carve around them unless you are going very slowly and so the livelier, thinner boards are much more adept at a faster turnover rate going down.

The stiffer boards (and still lively) set an edge and initiate the next turn much easier. You don't have to worry about washing out on the face of the bump. I try to push the tip down the face after each turn. I also try and emulate the same motions as a bump skier, although that falls apart on steep faces.

We try to keep the shoulders perpendicular to the fall line. If your shoulders turn out of the fall line, all of a sudden you have your back facing down the hill on the toe side turn, so quick short turns are de rigueur if you don't want to catch the death edge.

We're using Burton Ultraprimes as they seem to be the best for us. 156 or 162 and I'm weighing in at 150 and 5'9" and son is 160 and 5'9". Both very fit and relatively strong, he much more than me. The boards excel at coming off the bump and making your turn in the air, which keeps the tail from catching. Once your tail catches, you have a problem especially if you're deep in the trough.

We're both using a 15 to 18 degree difference between the front and rear bindings. Me 66-45, my son 54-39. With the difference we're able to swing the board with more leverage, and also have a stable platform fore and aft, and side to side.

We turn at all different spots on the bumps, from the top to the face to the trough.

Hope this wets your appetite.

[jpenn]

Bumps are where it's at. There is nothing like hitting Stowe or Sugarbush late in the season, when the groomers are running over 2% of the terrain and everything - especially the steeps like Star, Goat, Steins, or Ripcord are full of bumps the size of volkswagons and the snow is soft and forgiving. Moguls are like a giant terrain park with a thousand features and every time you ride through it, there's a new line to try. Personally, I put away the hardboots for this just because I feel more comfortable with my softies. Balance is key - a snowboarder's center of gravity should be just like a good mogul skier's - very little movement, which can be tricky if you find yourself setting hard turns.
Right now, CT has had very little snow. Our local mountain has a mogul run but the bumps are very hard and icy in between. Natural snow helps a lot, warm weather does, too. You guys near areas with large snowfalls are sooo lucky. Soft bumps all the time!

[ncermak]

strive to keep the board on the snow, and remain balanced. Push the nose down the face of the mogul. use the terrain, dno;t try just to ride the valleys or the peaks. ride some of each. Play in them. Some will make for nice banked turns, others you may have to go over. Stay light on your feet, and stay out of the back seat...thats when you'll get bounced around.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Forget about carving, think more about setting edges. Practice on a steep-ish groomed pitch doing short edge-setting turns. If you can keep your weight forward, pressuring the nose and picking up the tail as you switch edges, that's a good drill.

In the bumps, remember the fall-line is your friend. Try to find a smaller set with wide spacing to get the feel for them before tackling the close-set monsters.

[D.T.]

keep your weight forward, pressuring the nose and picking up the tail as you switch edges

that is the technique I use to ride my 192cm Tanker in the bumps and steeps
inkaholic does something similar on his 200cm Tanker

[BigBump]

Picking the tail up and swinging it to change edges, IMO, is really not a great method in bumps or steeps. First, keeping so much pressure on the nose means you lose the ability to unweight it to absorb bumps and on steeps you can't control your speed until the tail is back on the snow.

For bumps, I agree with Mr. Cermak. Stay centered so you can move your weight around as necessary, keep your legs loose, and strive to keep the whole board in contact with the snow. Look for opportunities to slow down, like banked turns or the sides of larger bumps. Also, if you get going too fast, go into a traverse until you are back in control.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Picking the tail up and swinging it to change edges, IMO, is really not a great method in bumps or steeps. First, keeping so much pressure on the nose means you lose the ability to unweight it to absorb bumps and on steeps you can't control your speed until the tail is back on the snow.It's not the end goal, it's just a good drill for people new to bumps. The idea is to not get in the back seat and to drill some good quick edge changes.

[MaineBomber]

I have been riding, or at least attempting to ride bumps for many years. Being the only boarder and hanging with a bunch of skiers you get forced into it. Bumps can be fun if there are not too troughed out or ice. If they are still somewhat rounded I agree with earlier postes, you turn on the back side rather then the front(like skiers). I ride a 167 Arbor, yep plates and hardboots on a twin tip. You have to be able to turn like hell, the faster you can turn the steeper a slope you can control. I think the hardboots help with the added support when you plow into the next bump.

I would not use a freestyle board, too soft, no set back, you end up going over frontwards when pushing the board. I would think a true alpine board would be too stiff and not want to turn quick enough.

If you have the cans for it grap a Tanker and just point it!

I don't think even the best bump boarder would ever look as good as a OK bump skier. Its just not possible with the foot stance.

2 bump runs and you are pretty much wasted for the day.

Pray for POWDER.

[bumpyride]

I have been riding, or at least attempting to ride bumps for many years. Being the only boarder and hanging with a bunch of skiers you get forced into it. Bumps can be fun if there are not too troughed out or ice. If they are still somewhat rounded I agree with earlier postes, you turn on the back side rather then the front(like skiers). I ride a 167 Arbor, yep plates and hardboots on a twin tip. You have to be able to turn like hell, the faster you can turn the steeper a slope you can control. I think the hardboots help with the added support when you plow into the next bump.

I would not use a freestyle board, too soft, no set back, you end up going over frontwards when pushing the board. I would think a true alpine board would be too stiff and not want to turn quick enough.

If you have the cans for it grap a Tanker and just point it!

I don't think even the best bump boarder would ever look as good as a OK bump skier. Its just not possible with the foot stance.

2 bump runs and you are pretty much wasted for the day.

Pray for POWDER.



Actually we run bump runs all day long if possible. The better you get, the easier it is.

I know that a good bump boarder can look as good as a decent skier, but it does seem to fall apart when it gets to be a double black (west coast blacks). Wouldn't ever say that a boarder could look as good as the pro skiers, but then who can except pro skiers.

Foot position for carving would be tough. Modified angles with 15 to 20 degrees difference between front and back make a whole lot of difference.

A racing stiff, damp board (IMO) is not that good, but a lively all mountain carver is terrific.

What all the posts are saying is that everyone has their own way of handling bumps. It is all in what you get used to and what suits your style.

Not picking on anyone, just trying to open the field up to experimentation.

[shawndoggy]

I've tried and tried. It's just way more fun to ride steep bumps like that on a softie board with lots of tail swinging.

Ladia you ever ride Squaw on Sundays? Would love to hook up. My kids (10 and 13) only want to ski bumps now so it's KT, Broken Arrow, Silverado, and Granite Chief for us. I'll confess I've wussed out a bit and put the skis on in the afternoon, but with another boarder there it'd be fun to give a go.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like to ride lower angles in general (45 or so) and have never tried steeper, but I speculate that steep angles would make it harder to get the board back and forth quickly when needed. My Coiler AM works very well in bumps. I have used a 164 cm freeride (Asym Air), a 169 Prior 4WD and a 200 cm Tanker. I like the Coiler the best, followed by the Prior, then the Asym Air and last the Tanker. I can make the Tanker work in intermediate bumps but really wouldn't want to try it in anything tough. I find the narrower AM boards work better than the wider freeride. The Prior was an older one with a straight tail, the upturned tail on the AM works better.

[OhD]

Every time you break contact with the snow you have to re-establish it, and that usually entails some bounce and chatter, especially on heelside where you lose some flex and damping in the ankle.
If you try to keep the nose pressed all the time, the tail can be skidded around more readily. If the tail lifts off the snow, it's easier to re-establish contact and effective edging smoothly if the nose (and preferably at least the forward third) of the board stays in contact.
You aren't going to be carving much unless you want to make large turns over several bumps at a turn and doing a LOT of flexion/extension to maintain contact. It can be done, but it's not pretty unless you are very selective about your line.
You can exploit the energy stored in the board if you get your speed and turn size matched to the natural frequency of combination of your mass and the board stiffness. Think mini-trampoline. This will not always be useful, but when the pitch and bump size are right it is great fun and very efficient. Usually mogul runs are too steep and the bumps too big for the frequencies to match (for we mere mortals).
The uphill sides of bumps are lower pitch than the downhill side, and the downhill side is often undercut, so you don't want to be skidding on the downhill side. Generally the easiest line is skidding on the uphill side of each bump with the nose pointed toward the next one downhill, turning the board so it is parallel to the fall line just about as you go over the pass to the next hole. Do most of the riding on the uphill quadrants - if the fall line runs south, stay on the NE and NW quadrants of the bumps, and pass through the saddles just as you change edges.

Turning on top of each bump makes the turning easy, but about all you can do to effect it is pivot the board relative to your body, since the only edge on the snow is between your feet. Then you have to get down off the top, which will certainly entail accelerating, and if you go down the backside it may entail dropping off the undercut.

Keep the upper body quiet and facing downhill to the extent your stance permits. This is easier on an alpine setup - on softies you sacrifice a lot of lateral stiffness when you ride high angles, so you're better off keeping your shoulders at a fairly constant angle to the fall line rather than square. The important thing is to not let the body pivot (or, to use the aeronautical term, "yaw") as much as the board does. Use the rotational inertia of the body as a reference about which you can pivot the board either direction, rather than using the board to power the considerable effort of turning the body back and forth. A still upper body also makes it a lot easier on your vision and equilibrium. Keep your hands still and well spread in a neutral position from which you can move them to adjust balance if you must. Lean your body downhill if anything - that moves your hips uphill and increases your edge angle.
Be a little aggressive - better to take each turn with a little more than you really need than with a little less.
Soft forward flex in your boots is critical. You have to be able to bend your knees and ankles easily to absorb bumps without your body bouncing up and down. You always want enough knee bend to allow you to extend 4-6" to recover from an undercut or a bit of ice. Stay loose and flexible but try to keep a little margin for movement available in every respect - use it if you need it and get it back in hand ASAP 'cuz you're probably going to need it again.
Learn to exploit the pile of soft scrapings as a safe place to get some speed checking without tripping on them.

Go ride 'em.

[bumpyride]

Every time you break contact with the snow you have to re-establish it, and that usually entails some bounce and chatter, especially on heelside where you lose some flex and damping in the ankle.
If you try to keep the nose pressed all the time, the tail can be skidded around more readily. If the tail lifts off the snow, it's easier to re-establish contact and effective edging smoothly if the nose (and preferably at least the forward third) of the board stays in contact.
You aren't going to be carving much unless you want to make large turns over several bumps at a turn and doing a LOT of flexion/extension to maintain contact. It can be done, but it's not pretty unless you are very selective about your line.
You can exploit the energy stored in the board if you get your speed and turn size matched to the natural frequency of combination of your mass and the board stiffness. Think mini-trampoline. This will not always be useful, but when the pitch and bump size are right it is great fun and very efficient. Usually mogul runs are too steep and the bumps too big for the frequencies to match (for we mere mortals).
The uphill sides of bumps are lower pitch than the downhill side, and the downhill side is often undercut, so you don't want to be skidding on the downhill side. Generally the easiest line is skidding on the uphill side of each bump with the nose pointed toward the next one downhill, turning the board so it is parallel to the fall line just about as you go over the pass to the next hole. Do most of the riding on the uphill quadrants - if the fall line runs south, stay on the NE and NW quadrants of the bumps, and pass through the saddles just as you change edges.

Turning on top of each bump makes the turning easy, but about all you can do to effect it is pivot the board relative to your body, since the only edge on the snow is between your feet. Then you have to get down off the top, which will certainly entail accelerating, and if you go down the backside it may entail dropping off the undercut.

Keep the upper body quiet and facing downhill to the extent your stance permits. This is easier on an alpine setup - on softies you sacrifice a lot of lateral stiffness when you ride high angles, so you're better off keeping your shoulders at a fairly constant angle to the fall line rather than square. The important thing is to not let the body pivot (or, to use the aeronautical term, "yaw") as much as the board does. Use the rotational inertia of the body as a reference about which you can pivot the board either direction, rather than using the board to power the considerable effort of turning the body back and forth. A still upper body also makes it a lot easier on your vision and equilibrium. Keep your hands still and well spread in a neutral position from which you can move them to adjust balance if you must. Lean your body downhill if anything - that moves your hips uphill and increases your edge angle.
Be a little aggressive - better to take each turn with a little more than you really need than with a little less.
Soft forward flex in your boots is critical. You have to be able to bend your knees and ankles easily to absorb bumps without your body bouncing up and down. You always want enough knee bend to allow you to extend 4-6" to recover from an undercut or a bit of ice. Stay loose and flexible but try to keep a little margin for movement available in every respect - use it if you need it and get it back in hand ASAP 'cuz you're probably going to need it again.
Learn to exploit the pile of soft scrapings as a safe place to get some speed checking without tripping on them.

Go ride 'em.



Nicely done.

Soft forward flex point: We always ride bumps in "The walk mode" to allow full extension of the knees. A soft BTS may be what works best for you, but it is imperative that you be able to move both knees to absorb the bumps (extension/contraction). Stiff boot/stiff bindings make bumps very unpleasant. That is not to say that hard boots and plates can be any less than remarkable on bumps, but full on race gear and and very stiff boots don't go hand in hand with bumps.

[OhD]

Hey bumpyride
Thanks for the compliment. You are right on about the boots. I put BTS on my Heads last year and love them. More travel, softer flex and no hard stops when I get to the end of the travel - or none I've felt yet. I suppose if I ever really kick them hard I'll bottom out the springs, but it hasn't happened yet. I've read warnings here about riding in walk mode being dangerous - likely to bust your boots - but never had it happen. The travel on the stock Heads is just too short and the stops too abrupt for me, though.

I see you're in Tacoma. I'm in the fourth Tri City and ride White Pass most of the time. Haven't made the trek to Crystal in over 20 years - we quit going there when we lived in Seattle 'cuz it had gotten so crowded that ten runs was a really good day. White Pass can get pretty clogged up on weekends, but not usually. Get in touch if you want to come over sometime. I belong to a co-op ski club at the pass and would be happy to host you for a night there if you want to make the drive worthwhile.

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis

[bumpyride]

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis[/QUOTE]

I believe you have to go back to your profile and allow messages to be sent when people visit the profile. I'm in there.

[Cindy Kleh]

Skiers look better than snowboarders in the bumps? Not necessarily. Most riders avoid them, so they don't look good when they get in them. I know of many local riders who look smooth as butter down long bump runs at Mary Jane.

Start out in bumps on a powder day or slush. It's more forgiving and will give you confidence.

[b0ardski]

I ski bumps on a snowboard.
Learning to use the side of the bumps as a banked turn is key to controling speed. This is easier to practice on larger, softer(pow or slush) bumps that don't have too deep and abrupt troughs. When they get refrozen hard, save your ankles for another day.
Still upper body is important to allow exaggerated flexion/extension to keep as much edge on the snow as possible.

Slow & in control is my motto:biggthump

A mental trick that helped me to flow thru the bumps like a good skier, think "flow like water" in a winding stream rolling up the side of a bank and flowing back down & up the other side.



All that said, I cheat. I didn't like bumps much on 1 plank untill I started using poles. That gave me the upper body stability I missed from skiing bumps and allowed me lots of exaggerated board movement while keeping the head & shoulders quiet and facing the falline.

[bumpyride]

Hey bumpyride
Thanks for the compliment. You are right on about the boots. I put BTS on my Heads last year and love them. More travel, softer flex and no hard stops when I get to the end of the travel - or none I've felt yet. I suppose if I ever really kick them hard I'll bottom out the springs, but it hasn't happened yet. I've read warnings here about riding in walk mode being dangerous - likely to bust your boots - but never had it happen. The travel on the stock Heads is just too short and the stops too abrupt for me, though.

I see you're in Tacoma. I'm in the fourth Tri City and ride White Pass most of the time. Haven't made the trek to Crystal in over 20 years - we quit going there when we lived in Seattle 'cuz it had gotten so crowded that ten runs was a really good day. White Pass can get pretty clogged up on weekends, but not usually. Get in touch if you want to come over sometime. I belong to a co-op ski club at the pass and would be happy to host you for a night there if you want to make the drive worthwhile.

How do you make contact through this forum without exposing your contact info to spammers? Anyone have advice?

Dennis

I will keep this is mind. Seems as though I have a mid-week pass for White Pass. Been there, and it was fun. I haven't been there since the expansion and am interested in how that opened up the hills. Keep in touch and you can do a private email from my profile.

CYA

[OhD]

I changed settings on my profile to allow e-mail, too.

The White Pass expansion is still in progress. http://www.skiwhitepass.com/construction/index.cfm Some towers are in, the runs are all cut, and the new lodge foundation is done. Next summer they plan to finish lifts and the lodge and open the area for the 2010-11 season. It's mostly pretty low-angle cruisers, but the area has needed more beginner-intermediate terrain forever, particularly runs that don't have cat track sections and bottlenecks getting through the cliff bands. The collector road back to the highway is going to be pretty brutal at the end of the day, but otherwise the area is going to be much improved by the expansion. The RV parking lot is going to be full of tower parts starting sometime in February, we are told.

One can hike out the ridge and ride the new runs now, but they aren't grooming yet and the low pitch is problematic if there's much powder - not that we've been that fortunate this year.

[Sooperburd]

My wife and I have a passion for riding the moguls. We both ride fairly short Rossignol all mountain boards with magnetraction (she has a Diva 144 and I have a JDub 154) with relatively stiff softboot setups. The maneuverability of a shorter board, with the edge grip of magnetraction helps us to enjoy the bumps, regardless of how fast and/or icy they are.

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3832&highlight=moguls). I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

At first, I thought it was going to change my entire line through the bumps, but after a few runs, I discovered that my line was really the same as it has always been, it's just where I choose to skid that changed. I could either skid down the back, icy face, or skid on the nice, soft face. Tough choice... :sleep:

In addition, while at the top of the mogul, sliding sideways on an edge, you make the appropriate direction change to get you pointed at the next mogul below. The two motions of skid and direction change happen so smoothly, you don't really think about it.

Of course, the skidding to scrub speed is in addition to soaking up speed via contraction/extension over the tops of the bumps. This is what so many good mogul skiers seem to understand so well. Is there even a name for this voodoo speed scrub technique that somehow converts excess kinetic energy back into potential energy? It's the exact inverse of what pipe riders do when they push off of the slope of the pipe into the flat and gain speed because of it.

At any rate, the contraction/extension is enough to keep speed in check when the slope is shallow, but the skid really comes into play on steeper slopes.

[jpenn]

My wife and I have a passion for riding the moguls. We both ride fairly short Rossignol all mountain boards with magnetraction (she has a Diva 144 and I have a JDub 154) with relatively stiff softboot setups. The maneuverability of a shorter board, with the edge grip of magnetraction helps us to enjoy the bumps, regardless of how fast and/or icy they are.

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3832&highlight=moguls). I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

At first, I thought it was going to change my entire line through the bumps, but after a few runs, I discovered that my line was really the same as it has always been, it's just where I choose to skid that changed. I could either skid down the back, icy face, or skid on the nice, soft face. Tough choice... :sleep:

In addition, while at the top of the mogul, sliding sideways on an edge, you make the appropriate direction change to get you pointed at the next mogul below. The two motions of skid and direction change happen so smoothly, you don't really think about it.

Of course, the skidding to scrub speed is in addition to soaking up speed via contraction/extension over the tops of the bumps. This is what so many good mogul skiers seem to understand so well. Is there even a name for this voodoo speed scrub technique that somehow converts excess kinetic energy back into potential energy? It's the exact inverse of what pipe riders do when they push off of the slope of the pipe into the flat and gain speed because of it.

At any rate, the contraction/extension is enough to keep speed in check when the slope is shallow, but the skid really comes into play on steeper slopes.

Hey Sooperburd - thanks for summing it up - I like your perspective, and now I am dying to try bumps on a smaller board (right now I use a Nidecker Legend 164 - a bit long but flexy and able to cut tight turns).

JP

[Sooperburd]

Hey Sooperburd - thanks for summing it up - I like your perspective, and now I am dying to try bumps on a smaller board (right now I use a Nidecker Legend 164 - a bit long but flexy and able to cut tight turns).

JP

Wow. I can't even imagine what something that long would feel like in the bumps. I've always wanted to try a longer board in the moguls, though. I can see how a longer board might smooth things out a bit. What length (and stiffness) makes a good mogul ski?

[Sooperburd]

I'm fairly certain that the longer the board, though, the farther out you need to be visually scanning your line.

Actually, that's a really good tip that I haven't seen on here (or maybe it's there and I missed it). The importance of looking ahead and sighting in your line at least 3 bumps ahead.

It's not so simple, though:

When you first start riding moguls, understanding the line isn't too important, because you're just taking them 1 bump at a time. You'll completely commit your board and center of gravity (COG) to every turn. Essentially your COG will be centered over the board all of the time.

As you get better at riding bumps, you need to start looking farther and farther down the hill. Pretty soon (or not so soon in my case, It's taken me years to get this), you'll start letting the board pendulum (yes, it's now a verb) to the left and right of your COG with each bump. If you aren't looking a few moguls ahead, you won't have the confidence to let the board pendulum out away from you, knowing it will come back very soon.

This was where I stagnated for a year or two. I didn't realize how important it was to be looking really far ahead. I believe it's more important for snowboarders to see the line than for skiers to see the line. Skiers have two independent feet and training wheels, so they can adjust their COG very quickly. On a single plank, without training wheels, you can't easily make major changes to your board/COG relationship.

Once you get to a certain level at moguls, seeing the line becomes more and more important. I'd say about 60% of my (somewhat limited) brain power is devoted to the line, 39% is devoted to body control, and 1% is looking for squirrels.

Sorry if I'm not using all the proper terms. I was never a mogul skier, but I've learned almost everything I know about riding bumps from watching skiers. If I'm way off here and not giving good advice, please feel free to correct me.

Oh, and I was (mostly) kidding about the squirrels.

[KingCrimson]

I'll probably get crap for this..

My favorite board by far in moguls is my 180 Metal GS Coiler. It's super damp, so it feels very utilitarian and stable in bumps. The lack of rebound keeps the edge in the snow, the rockered nose and tail makes spinning it around a breeze, and the length gives a lot of "squish" if I mess up. I'm sure there are much, much better boards for this but I always find myself on the GS stick..


Nothing helps my carving more than trees and bumps!

Olympians are on somewhat narrow AM shapes about 170-175 in length for bumps. I wonder if they are terribly different from park skis.

[Sooperburd]

This goes against most things I've read (...and my common sense, too) about riding bumps, but my stance is duck ±15°. This makes it pretty impossible for me to square my shoulders to the fall line. So, I keep my shoulders at 45° or so to the fall line and turn my head the rest of the way so I can see the terrain to both sides of me.

You'd think that this would increase my chances of catching the "death edge", but that hasn't been the case with me. The last time I caught my heel edge on a mogul was at least two years ago.

Why don't I just change my stance to make it easier? I guess I should try it. I do like riding switch, and there's just something I like about going down the hill sideways and not squaring my shoulders. I suppose it's an image thing. I want to be able to ride bumps like a skier, but not look like a skier. Maybe I should rephrase that... I want to beat skiers through the mogul fields, while looking like a knuckle dragger, not like a snowboarder emulating a skier. ;)

I'll even ride smaller mogul fields switch sometimes if the snow's soft and I don't mind being sore the next day (I tend to go over the handlebars and hug moguls a lot when riding them switch). I suppose that riding moguls switch is my Holy Grail of difficult things to do while snowboarding.

[Sooperburd]

I'll probably get crap for this..

My favorite board by far in moguls is my 180 Metal GS Coiler. It's super damp, so it feels very utilitarian and stable in bumps. The lack of rebound keeps the edge in the snow, the rockered nose and tail makes spinning it around a breeze, and the length gives a lot of "squish" if I mess up. I'm sure there are much, much better boards for this but I always find myself on the GS stick..


Nothing helps my carving more than trees and bumps!

Olympians are on somewhat narrow AM shapes about 170-175 in length for bumps. I wonder if they are terribly different from park skis.

I can see how dampening would be sweet. However, I assume you're on hardboots. Are you skidding down the back sides of the moguls at all with that setup (or are you speed checking on the uphill face)? Skipping down the backside of moguls in hard boots doesn't sound like fun.

You said "rockered nose and tail". Is that a reverse camber board???

Finally, have you ever ridden something really short (sub 160) in the bumps?

Really long story: I tuned up an old beater Gnu Carbon High Beam 160 this week as my rock board. (Yes, yes, yes, I tuned up a rock board :confused:) and I'm going to try it on the bumps this weekend. It's much floppier than my JDub. If the mogul skiers are riding something similar to park skis, the Gnu might give a similar feel.

...and then again, it might be a horrible trainwreck in the bumps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I want to beat skiers through the mogul fields, while looking like a knuckle dragger, not like a snowboarder emulating a skier.So I guess the $64 question is why the hell are you on this forum if that's your opinion of forward stances? You are aware that the vast majority of us here ride hard boots at aggressively forward angles, right?

[carvin29]

I've come to enjoy them somewhat. I watched a skiing technique video on them, it was saying to turn before the mogul then go around it. Sounds simple but it really helped me and now I like em.

[Sooperburd]

So I guess the $64 question is why the hell are you on this forum if that's your opinion of forward stances? You are aware that the vast majority of us here ride hard boots at aggressively forward angles, right?

Haha, excellent question. I've searched all over the internet, and BOL is the only place that treats the discipline of mogul snowboarding as anything like a science.

Everywhere else I've been, I only get the response of "dude, snowboarders don't ride moguls, what's wrong with you?"

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my "not like a snowboarder emulating a skier" comment. I can see how many of you have become hyper-sensitive to comments like that (from the idiots in the lift line, etc.). I'm thoroughly intrigued by what you guys can do on hardboot alpine setups. I imagine that someday I'll get my own alpine setup, but that's at least a year away.

I also think that this thread has very little place being in the Carving Community sub-forum. IMO it should be in the Off-Topic sub-forum, but I'm just a noob here and I don't know the rules.

I'd be perfectly happy posting this stuff in the Off-Topic sub-forum and not offending any hardbooters. From what I've read in my few weeks of lurking, it's waaaay to easy to offend some of you.

[Rob Stevens]

Let's not get too complicated.
It's just shorter radius turns with a more uneven surface.
The same things you do to turn fast are all in there with some more in-out with the legs to stay on the snow, unless you want to jump and that's good because a mogul field has alot of jumps.

[Sooperburd]

Let's not get too complicated.
It's just shorter radius turns with a more uneven surface.
The same things you do to turn fast are all in there with some more in-out with the legs to stay on the snow, unless you want to jump and that's good because a mogul field has alot of jumps.

Rob,

If your goal is the zipper line, this is indeed very complicated. If your goal is something less than the zipper line, I completely agree with you, it's not very complicated.

[Rob Stevens]

Rob,

If your goal is the zipper line, this is indeed very complicated. If your goal is something less than the zipper line, I completely agree with you, it's not very complicated.

How's that?

Both require absorbtion, where only one requires the rider to stay quiet in the upper body. Does this mean that a line that ignores the "I must turn here" mindset takes less skill? Controlled rotation and a wider corridor is just as demanding.

This wider path is also more appropriate for snowboarding where pivoting is slower compared to skis, giving that funny look that makes it look less refined than skiing.

[Sooperburd]

How's that?

Both require absorbtion, where only one requires the rider to stay quiet in the upper body. Does this mean that a line that ignores the "I must turn here" mindset takes less skill? Controlled rotation and a wider corridor is just as demanding.

This wider path is also more appropriate for snowboarding where pivoting is slower compared to skis, giving that funny look that makes it look less refined than skiing.

The fact that nearly nobody can do the zipper line quickly and smoothly says to me it's much more difficult than the almost-zipper line.

I suppose if we're splitting hairs, the techniques aren't that different between the two lines. However, the difference in skill required between the two is immense.

The difference is that the zipper line requires you to pendulum the board right and left of your COG to a very high degree. Also, the zipper is much straighter down the hill than a traversing route. That means it's faster than the traversing route, and the turns come a lot faster. ...and that means you have to be looking really far ahead, and your body needs to almost be on autopilot, so your brain can figure out the path.

...and I think it's the lack of training wheels that makes it look funny, not a difference in pivot speed. Snowboarders can apply much more torque to their system than skiers, especially when using low binding angles. In addition, a snowboard doesn't have a significantly higher moment of inertia (swing weight, sorry for the engineering term) than a pair of skis. You'd be surprised how quickly you can turn a short board (I ride an all mountain 154 in the bumps and I don't ever feel limited by pivot speed).

[Rob Stevens]

The line you're in to is found on FIS mogul courses.
The line I'm talking about is the one you'd ride in the OP. The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.
To stay smooth and in control, with some semblance of style, you need an approach that is not dictated by the bumps.
As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.
We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.
To the OP: If you want to crush it in style and not just be the first one down, I suggest the "You dictate the line" method.

[Steve Prokopiw]

The line you're in to is found on FIS mogul courses.
The line I'm talking about is the one you'd ride in the OP. The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.
To stay smooth and in control, with some semblance of style, you need an approach that is not dictated by the bumps.
As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.
We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.
To the OP: If you want to crush it in style and not just be the first one down, I suggest the "You dictate the line" method.

Although I have always felt better in hardboots in bumps for several reasons,the above statements describe my own bump riding and teaching philosophy.Not that I always execute with style, but I try.It is simply more fun to decide for myself how to ride than have it it dictated by the terrain.

[NateW]

Last Saturday I paused halfway down a mogully section and someone on the chair asked how long my board was. I was on a 183 at the time... it's not the norm, but so be it.

It's been a long time since I rode anything shorter than 170, but I don't feel much difference switching between my 172 and 183 in bumps. I do prefer the 172, but I think that's got more to do with it being stiffer and narrower than it being shorter. I like the stability of a longer board in general though ("longer" meaning "over 160").

Narrower means better leverage on the edge, as someone mentioned already, and stiffer means that if my CG gets too far forward or backward I can muscle myself back to center and the board will support me rather than curl up under me and just let me fall.

For the "zipper line," I try to think of my front foot as going straight down the hill, and my back foot swinging around behind me, unweighted in the turns. The "straight down the hill" part doesn't happen nearly that precisely of course, but it's a mental model that works for me.

If you want to run a duck stance, my guess is that it's not going to be all that different except that your upper body will be sideways so that you can still get lots of rotation / counter-rotation. It's harder to get high edge angles on your heels, without bending a lot at the waist, when you've got your knees oriented that way. But if you want to handicap yourself like that, go right ahead. ;)

[terekhov]

Wow. I can't even imagine what something that long would feel like in the bumps. I've always wanted to try a longer board in the moguls, though. I can see how a longer board might smooth things out a bit. What length (and stiffness) makes a good mogul ski?
my goto mogul board is beaten-up donek axis 182 (now replaced with coiler 177am glass classic). longer board is easier to adjust balance when speeding through moguls + longer edge gives more freedom to scrub speed off. and yes - you need eye-track your line further to gain control on speed of longer stick

[Sooperburd]

Another noob question: What do you mean by OP?

The one where the bumps are all over the place. You can't stay in the fall line all the time, riding trough to face because that line runs out after about 20 vertical.
At Mary Jane, there are pretty solid lines all over the place. Just ask the skiers, who routinely rip through them in a zipper 100-200 yards at a time.

As for this line being slower, that's not true. You may get to the bottom slower, but your speed over the snow is the same.
I still don't agree here. If you're going straight down the fall line, your linear speed is going to be greater than if you are traversing the fall line. That's just physics. There is a certain amount of friction associated with the board on the snow, even if you're doing zero scrubbing. Covering more ground on on a shallower slope means lower linear speed.

We've looked at this pretty extensively from the perspective of what compliments a snowboard best and found that, while we can pin "zipper" in some places, it gets spastic in the upper body, doing whatever it takes to keep the board on line after the "line" runs out.
This is why I say sighting a really long line is so important (much more important for snowboarders to do well than for skiers to do well) because you need to see the course changes long in advance to avoid the spastic upper body. I'm not saying it's easy, but I have seen some success using this technique to quiet my upper body at higher speeds on the zipper.

[Sooperburd]

Narrower means better leverage on the edge, as someone mentioned already, and stiffer means that if my CG gets too far forward or backward I can muscle myself back to center and the board will support me rather than curl up under me and just let me fall.
I've heard this a couple of times. Can you really tell the difference between a 170 and a 182 in its ability to help you right yourself if you get leaning too far forward or backward? In my experience, if you get anywhere near the back seat, there's no righting yourself. You've got bigger problems. Maybe I do need to try a longer board.

For the "zipper line," I try to think of my front foot as going straight down the hill, and my back foot swinging around behind me, unweighted in the turns. The "straight down the hill" part doesn't happen nearly that precisely of course, but it's a mental model that works for me.
I feel exactly the same way about this approach. Minus the pendulum action, that front foot is going pretty much straight down the hill.

If you want to run a duck stance, my guess is that it's not going to be all that different except that your upper body will be sideways so that you can still get lots of rotation / counter-rotation. It's harder to get high edge angles on your heels, without bending a lot at the waist, when you've got your knees oriented that way. But if you want to handicap yourself like that, go right ahead. ;)With a duck stance, it is definitely harder to get a high heel edge angle for scrubbing on the uphill side of the moguls. However, I haven't found this to be much of a detriment so far. Maybe when my speeds increase, I'll need a little more scrub power on the heel edge. Maybe I haven't noticed a detriment because I've been compensating with stronger toe side scrubbing. Certainly, high toe side angles can be achieved riding duck with minimal movement, and tons of power.

[Newmax]

Are we talking about 'carving' moguls or riding them like in that video from page 1?

[b0ardski]

I always carve through the bumps, and look nothing like the alpiner in the vid.

[Rob Stevens]

Another noob question: What do you mean by OP?

At Mary Jane, there are pretty solid lines all over the place. Just ask the skiers, who routinely rip through them in a zipper 100-200 yards at a time.

Fair enough. Love to see some video of you making it look as natural.

[/quote]I still don't agree here. If you're going straight down the fall line, your linear speed is going to be greater than if you are traversing the fall line. That's just physics. There is a certain amount of friction associated with the board on the snow, even if you're doing zero scrubbing. Covering more ground on on a shallower slope means lower linear speed.[/quote]

Who's going straight down the fall line? You're skidding between every turn, with a fairly high degree of tail displacement relative to your nose. What I'm describing entails much more consistant carving, which means I'm going just as fast, but not as direct. It's just physics.

[/quote]This is why I say sighting a really long line is so important (much more important for snowboarders to do well than for skiers to do well) because you need to see the course changes long in advance to avoid the spastic upper body. I'm not saying it's easy, but I have seen some success using this technique to quiet my upper body at higher speeds on the zipper.[/quote]

Again, let's see the video. I won't say it can't be done. I used to ride moguls like you describe myself. After a time, however, I found it wasn't as clean. Earlier, you said a snowboard can pivot just as fast as skis and this is true under ideal conditions however, if this is not done with the same stable foundation of stance and balance, any mistake will not be as easy to recover from and result in flailing.

OP is original post.

[Sooperburd]

Are we talking about 'carving' moguls or riding them like in that video from page 1?

I've been talking about riding them, like the video on page 1.

[Rob Stevens]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls?:confused: What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.:eek:

KT at Squaw is not like the moguls in the video. While you can ride like that for sections, you will have to change it up and dictate the line yourself.

[Sooperburd]

Who's going straight down the fall line? You're skidding between every turn, with a fairly high degree of tail displacement relative to your nose. What I'm describing entails much more consistant carving, which means I'm going just as fast, but not as direct. It's just physics.
I'll get video this weekend. There's a lot less skid and tail wag than you think.
Again, let's see the video. I won't say it can't be done. I used to ride moguls like you describe myself. After a time, however, I found it wasn't as clean.
I agree. It's not as clean. It takes a ton of practice to make it clean.
any mistake will not be as easy to recover from and result in flailing.Yep.
OP is original post. Haha, I've been around forums quite a while and this is the first time I've seen that. I guess my noob-ness knows no bounds...:o

[carvedog]

I'd be perfectly happy posting this stuff in the Off-Topic sub-forum and not offending any hardbooters. From what I've read in my few weeks of lurking, it's waaaay to easy to offend some of you.

Some live just to get their panties bunched up it seems.

Anything to do with riding goes in the main forum. OT is for transgendered monkeys on bicycles and stuff like that.

Good to see you around. I don't care if you are in soft boots. Seems like you have some valid points about riding bumps.

Or at least some things to think about. I tend to turn on the flat or uphill part of the bump. And when I am in balance it seems to turn into zipper line bumps that I can maintain for 10 to 20 bumps at a time. Sometimes longer but I am hurting right now, so not so much.

If I turn down the backside the ride seems to get rather harsh and choppy. I like the slight speed check that the turn gives you before you go over the bump.

[Sooperburd]

Some live just to get their panties bunched up it seems.

Anything to do with riding goes in the main forum. OT is for transgendered monkeys on bicycles and stuff like that. Good to know, thanks!
Good to see you around. I don't care if you are in soft boots. Seems like you have some valid points about riding bumps. Thanks, and you guys will probably sucker me into hardboots at some point. I'm not opposed to it, I just don't want to spend the money right now.
If I turn down the backside the ride seems to get rather harsh and choppy. Ok, this answers my question of how a hardboot setup feels on the icy, undercut backside of moguls. It's pretty much the same way the back side (I'm going to coin a term and call it the mogul butt) feels on softies.
I like the slight speed check that the turn gives you before you go over the bump.Yes, it's quite a valuable little skid. I think it's easy to get into the mindset that all skidding is bad, especially if you live for laid, linked turns. Skidding has its place on the hill.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I always carve through the bumps, and look nothing like the alpiner in the vid.I'd love to see you do it in any sort of serious bumps. I'm not saying it can't be done but I have yet to see anybody on skis or a board carve through a steep field of big bumps.

[philw]

I'm not sure what there is to argue about here. I've not seen anyone duck ride moguls, but then I've seen very few on soft gear at all, so I'm delighted to hear it works. You must get a pain in the neck as you've a long way to rotate your eyes to see the heel side line, no? How about the movement: what's moving where to do that?

For me if I get my GS board out then I'm pretty muck knackered for riding moguls. I can't flex the board at less than Mach 2, and it doesn't fit hugely well around the lines between the moguls. I can rest the tail on one and the tip on the next, but that's going nowhere fast. So I use my slalom board... soft enough for me to be able to bend it at mogul speeds, a nice kick to it, and a blast on easier friendly moguls. If I'm stupidly fit (that is if I've ridden 6 weeks every day or something) then I can ride slightly less friendly moguls, but it's still a lot harder than doing the same on skis, in my view.

Winter Park bumps are pretty good quality from what I remember.

[newcarver]

169 SG Cult AF700 40 30 angles, BTS with yellow springs. Can navigate hike to double blacks. Hard to keep speed in check even when going through the troughs. Uneven shapes and sizes make it difficult to get in a rythem. Very good edge hold with hardboots which keeps you from sliding out. Usually do hop turns with tail and use bumps to bank off of. Will tire out upper legs. Good way to build up stamina. Not really that fun, but will do to push myself and get to the powder field at the lower 1/4 of the run to let er rip.

[NateW]

I've heard this a couple of times. Can you really tell the difference between a 170 and a 182 in its ability to help you right yourself if you get leaning too far forward or backward? In my experience, if you get anywhere near the back seat, there's no righting yourself. You've got bigger problems. Maybe I do need to try a longer board.

I think some concepts got mixed up during the journey from my brain to yours... I think that "righting" ability has a lot to do with stiffness, and not much to do with length. At least, in my 170+ quiver it's the stiffness that counts. In the 150ish range, the length might be a factor, I wouldn't know.

This thread has got me thinking that I should find a stiff 160 and see if it's any more or less fun in moguls.

[Sooperburd]

I'd love to see you do it in any sort of serious bumps. I'm not saying it can't be done but I have yet to see anybody on skis or a board carve through a steep field of big bumps.

+1 I'd also like to see this. Maybe not even on a really steep section. Just some that are nice and rutted out, with undercut backsides.

[carvedog]

+1 I'd also like to see this. Maybe not even on a really steep section. Just some that are nice and rutted out, with undercut backsides.

Depends on the definition of carve.

On the 360 thread we have numerous folks claiming carved 360 but I haven't seen one.

There are many Holy Grails of snowboarding.
I did have a great day carving bumps on a 155 WC F2 asym.
Flicky little thing, it was pretty fun too, but I don't normally ride boards that small. And I don't try to carve bumps on my 185 Frontier, and my Canyon is too wide for that. The nearly carved for me happens more on the narrow waisted boards. It's easier.

[Sooperburd]

You must get a pain in the neck as you've a long way to rotate your eyes to see the heel side line, no? How about the movement: what's moving where to do that?My hips stay pretty much in line with the board. They're twisted maybe 10° towards the nose of the board. My shoulders sit at about 45°, which feels fairly natural. My head is turned maybe 35°, so it's pointed straight down the fall line. It certainly doesn't hurt my neck, and there's only a very minimal intrusion of my shoulder into my field of view.

Winter Park bumps are pretty good quality from what I remember.Yep, Jane has excellent bumps serviced by the Challenger lift.

My wife and I spend entire days hitting bump run after bump run. We're definitely worn out at the end of the day. But, like many have said, the better your mogul technique, the less energy it takes to ride them.

I'm going to try my floppy Gnu 160 this weekend on the bumps since that's the longest board I own. I'm interested in trying something even longer, but I don't see how that'll happen unless it's a full alpine hardboot setup. I'm just not going to buy a 170+ freeride board.

[Sooperburd]

I did have a great day carving bumps on a 155 WC F2 asym.

Finally some corroboration of my "155-ish is not too shabby in the moguls" theory. :)

[Sooperburd]

I think some concepts got mixed up during the journey from my brain to yours... I think that "righting" ability has a lot to do with stiffness, and not much to do with length. At least, in my 170+ quiver it's the stiffness that counts. In the 150ish range, the length might be a factor, I wouldn't know.Maybe our mixed concepts explains everything. I'm saying (because I've never ridden anything longer than a 156 in the bumps), that whenever I get near the back seat, it's over. You're saying there's a certain amount of "righting" ability from those situations. Maybe the "back seat point of no return" is relatively farther back on a long board than a shorty. This would make the longer boards more forgiving when it comes to back seat problems.
This thread has got me thinking that I should find a stiff 160 and see if it's any more or less fun in moguls.Please do! And let me know how it feels. I can't as easily try a really long board as many of you can try a shorty.

[b0ardski]

My statement was a bit bold.
what I should say is I'm always trying to carve an edge, not scraping down the back of the bump or slamming the undercut to check speed. I'm not talking about GS pencil lines either, But I do get the board high on edge & "pendulum" the board to either side of the fall line with a combination of cross under/over transitions & lots of flexion/extension to keep the edge cutting thru the snow.
The 167 kildyflex kicked a$$ in the steep, fresh coated, sun softened death cookie topped bumps on Schwietzer's face yesterday right down the lift line.
Consistent, equal full C zipper line thru the fist sized cookies that would be the envy of any mogul skier, with a couple of buttered 360s were it flattens out at the bottom.

When the troughs get too deep and "undercut" It becomes more work than fun and I don't bother or move to where the bumps are big/wide enough to turn & check speed across the tops.

I know, put up or shut up. Ive got a free ticket for anyone that wants to come to Schwietzer and see for themselves.
I am working on getting someone to use my camera to prove that a snowboarder can rip bumps just as gracefully as a skier.

[Sooperburd]

I know, put up or shut up. Ive got a free ticket for anyone that wants to come to Schwietzer and see for themselves.
I am working on getting someone to use my camera to prove that a snowboarder can rip bumps just as gracefully as a skier.
I didn't mean to be confrontational. I would just like to see this technique done. It sounds like something I'd like to try. ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Depends on the definition of carve.
On edge the entire time, pencil line except for the transition from one edge to the other, which should ideally be done in a board length or less. Same standard as on groomed, or at least that's what I think of when someone says they are carving the entire length of a run.

[Newmax]

On edge the entire time, pencil line except for the transition from one edge to the other, which should ideally be done in a board length or less. Same standard as on groomed, or at least that's what I think of when someone says they are carving the entire length of a run.

+1 on that! :ices_ange

[frunobulax]

I'd say it depends.

On a real mogul field like on page one with big moguls standing close to each other carving is not possible anymore, at least not for me. You have to go the zipper line if you want do get through it quickly.
The reason why skiers can do it better is IMO that they can go through the field facing the fall line. They don't need to rotate their upper body to keep control.
With a snowboard, it is essential to rotate the upper body in every turn, otherwise you cannot control your edge on the lower part of the mogul. Additionally, as long as you face the fall line, the flexion/extension range of your legs is limited, and you need every bit of that on big moguls.
Facing the fall line you would quickly become too fast, and eventually the opposed edge can get caught on the upper part of mogul, leading to a painful crash.

On "normal" mogul fields one can still carve, going the S-line like on groomers.
Stay centered, use the moguls for jumps or absorb them with your knees, then on a small flat space place your carve with abrupt initiation, preferably cross-under, and try to get through the curve before you cross the next bump. Try to keep your upper body and knees away from the ground because the mogul is always harder than you.
Additional fun comes from jumping over one mogul (when riding square to the fall line) and initiating the carve on the rear side of the next one.

[Sooperburd]

The reason why skiers can do it better is IMO that they can go through the field facing the fall line. They don't need to rotate their upper body to keep control. Can't high binding angles achieve this?
With a snowboard, it is essential to rotate the upper body in every turn, otherwise you cannot control your edge on the lower part of the mogul. I say don't control that edge on the low side of the mogul. It's usually icy and undercut anyway. Ride a flat board over this portion, straight at the next bump.
Additionally, as long as you face the fall line, the flexion/extension range of your legs is limited, and you need every bit of that on big moguls. This might actually be the biggest advantage of riding duck (or at least really low binding angles)through the bumps: Tons of flexion/extension range.
Facing the fall line you would quickly become too fast, and eventually the opposed edge can get caught on the upper part of mogul, leading to a painful crash. .Practice, practice, practice.

[Rob Stevens]

This thread (like many before it) is crying out for video from a few people.
Myself included.

It's going to come down to your goals:

-Top-to-bottom speed and a narrow corridor? You will have to be happy with a certain amount of steering angle / displacement. This is pretty straightforward when you consider that the posters who use this tech describe their front foot as going staight down the fall line. This line is definitely the most direct, but again, not always the fastest over the snow.

-More consistant carving, or "slarving"? Choosing a radius and sticking to it is the hard part. Don't want to edge on the downside? You might have to. You won't get to the bottom first, but you will be displacing the tail relative to the nose less. This is why the ground speed is very similar, as you'll be holding your momentum from the fall line.

In the first case, rapid movement through pivoting is the skill that is highlighted, while the second case requires more precise edging. Pressure control in both cases are important, but the movement done will create different results. In the first case, the goal might be snow contact at all times because if you lose this, you'll pick up speed very fast. In the second case, pressure control may be used to double up, or unweight in the carve to avoid edging through nasty spots. Both of these pressure scenarios are equally difficult to master.

So the point is, both are equally hard, but for different reasons and will appeal to different types of riders for the sensation offered by either.

Again, to go back to the OP... Is there a combination of both? Slarving and direct? Sure, but the pitch is the key element here, with equipment choice a close second. Even in World Cup skiing moguls, arguably the standard and what some beleive is the ideal line, they definitely don't carve, or even slarve, but rapidly displace the tails relative to the tips. Had a look at their skis? No sidecut. Why? Carving or slarving is too fast. They need to scrub off speed. Want to carve more in the bumps? You'll have to take a different and likely wider line... Even if only slightly.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Maureen has a precise,'pick her way through' the bumps and steeps technique that sets her apart from most of the very few women I've seen ride bumps with any skill.It has almost nothing to do with carving or a desire to go as fast as possible,but everything to do with control(a reflection of her personality:)) For now,much of her ride time is with our little boys,but as they get older and I start to take over with them(as per our unwritten family 'arrangement') she will get more ride time and it excites me to think of how proficient she may get in bumps when she has the time to ride more for herself.

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.

[Rob Stevens]

Maureen has a precise,'pick her way through' the bumps and steeps technique that sets her apart from most of the very few women I've seen ride bumps with any skill.It has almost nothing to do with carving or a desire to go as fast as possible,but everything to do with control(a reflection of her personality:)) For now,much of her ride time is with our little boys,but as they get older and I start to take over with them(as per our unwritten family 'arrangement') she will get more ride time and it excites me to think of how proficient she may get in bumps when she has the time to ride more for herself.

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.

This is likely where our OP'er might be, skill wise, at this point.

[kmartshopper]

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3832&highlight=moguls). I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

Hey Sooper... was poking through that thread and couldn't find too much reference to specifics about scrubbing. That's my achille's heel... once these east coast moguls get firm and rutty, I can't control speed. With any soft snow, I'll go straight down Outer Limits at Killington. Like that guy in the video (nice job BTW!)... (only me in softies)... I couldn't do that cuz no loose snow... too fast. Put 3"+ of fresh in the troughs, and I could ride that that line np. Once "the hit" coming off the backside gets too firm and rutty - I do 2 or 3 turns and I'm going to fast.

Anyway, curious about your scrubbing topside technique. Realistically, I'm really only about the flow in the soft bumps - not out to prove my ability to tame unpleasant hardpack... but some days it's hit or miss, and I'd like to be able to tame the rutty spots better.

FWIW.... my eperience in bumps (which I love) with my boards:
169 Osin 3800 - Super fun with any new snow in any size bumps. Hard or rutty, the tail catches and the polar moment of inertia (:biggthump) is undeniably greater than a short board (for flicking).
161 K2 Recon - old, super light, super trashed, huge base bevels - the spoon... my most fun all around bumper (I'm 6'4"). So light an maneuverable that sometimes I can unweight over a big bump, and by kicking with my trailing leg pop the board heelside, then bring it back toeside again, before coming back fully weighted. It's very fun, and I can't see ever doing that in hardboots or a longer heavier board.
161 Donek Incline - Heavier, stiffer, less sidecut. This is my newest board and so far I find that it doesn't "flow"' as smoothly in soft bumps, and is more punishing in hard bumps. I don't have a lot of time on it yet though... so maybe not fair.
173 Donek FCII - I still suck at hardbooting on groomers... so another unfair comparison.
________
Body Science (http://bodyscience.ws/)

[Sooperburd]

once these east coast moguls get firm and rutty, I can't control speed. I just got back from riding Mary Jane tonight. I was working on the uphill-side mogul scrub technique (since I only started doing it last weekend). I haven't done it on hard moguls yet, but it seems like it might even be easier to do on hard ones than on ones with a bunch of powder right on top. The powder is always shooting out and blasting me in the face. If the snow were more packed, a good, sharp edge (or a Magnetraction edge) will provide a powerful scrub.

Let's look at a heelside edge turn with a mogul face scrub: The idea is to aim your board right at the big, broad face of the mogul. You let the nose of the board climb up the face, while absorbing the shock with your knees. When the tail of your board clears the downhill face of the previous mogul, kick your uphill foot out in front of you. The board will squirt out in front of you, and you'll be able to get a good edge angle with that heelside edge on the snow.

Because you're soaking up everything with your knees, AND scrubbing right there, you can really control speed. Your board comes to a brief, full stop if you want it to. During the skid, you also pivot the board and aim it right at the next mogul. Your body still has some momentum as you continue to squat into the mogul face, so you'll have enough speed to pop up over the current mogul and start heading down to the next one.

The toeside turn with an uphill mogul face scrub is a little dicier when you're using low binding angles. I haven't mastered it yet. There's all kinds of power and flexibility in that toeside turn, I just don't feel comfortable kicking my board out as far behind me, not knowing for sure if I'm going to catch that heelside edge. Certainly, harder packed moguls will give me confidence because I won't be worried about the heelside catching a big pile of powder and sending me overboard.
Once "the hit" coming off the backside gets too firm and rutty - I do 2 or 3 turns and I'm going to fast.I know exactly what you mean. The thing about the uphill face scrub is that it allows you to ride an edge down the backside of each mogul, never scrubbing on the worst possible (usually icy and undercut) face of the mogul. I was testing this out today, and the more effective my uphill face scrubbing is, the less fear I have of just bee-lining it straight down the downhill side to the next bump.

I haven't done it on really icy moguls yet because the snow has been really good lately, but I am really confident that this will work just as well, or even better on icy moguls.

The huge added benefit of not scrubbing on the downhill face is that you don't waste energy skipping down that crappy, undercut side. It's almost a relaxing ride down the bumps, because you have the peace of mind of knowing you can control your speed on the uphill scrub.
161 K2 Recon - old, super light, super trashed, huge base bevels - the spoon... my most fun all around bumper (I'm 6'4"). So light an maneuverable that sometimes I can unweight over a big bump, and by kicking with my trailing leg pop the board heelside, then bring it back toeside again, before coming back fully weighted. It's very fun, and I can't see ever doing that in hardboots or a longer heavier board.This fits my description of a good bump board. ...everything but the large base bevel. With my technique, I need serious edge hold to scrub that uphill face as much as I can. I also need good edge hold to go down the back side without losing my edge. Essentially, you carve down the downhill face of the mogul, so you want those edges to hold on.

[Sooperburd]

Jane got a lot of snow last night, resulting in somewhat nebulous bumps today. It didn't make for a good demonstration of the zipper line. However, you can see how quiet the upper body can be when you sight a long line.

First Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V68AFPNHH0o)

...and yes, I think I was going faster than that skier. :eplus2:

Second Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AN2pmfog0M)

Third Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh081dMLINs)

Here's the wife! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CelVMRV9aGU)

Some notes:

Certainly these could be considered hero bumps, because they are waaay too forgiving with all the snow we got last night. They don't really showcase the zipper line because of this. I'm praying for crappy snow so I can get some real video of the zipper line!

One thing that is visible is the quick turning. There's no reason you can't make really fast snap turns and still keep a quiet upper body. Sight the line.

Another thing that is very visible is the pendulum action. You can see my board going way to the left and right of my CG. Again, sight the line as far ahead as you can.

Also, the (mostly) silent upper body. While these bumps are more forgiving than those on the video in page one, my upper body is MUCH quieter. Heck, even my wife's upper body movements are less pronounced than those on the page 1 video. ...and this is only her 3rd year snowboarding!

Oh, and I can't figure out how to imbed these videos directly onto the thread. A forum search turned up nothing. Can someone help me with this?

Finally, a funny story. The audio is dubbed over on the wife video because there was a dude on the lift calling out my name. He's an old buddy of mine and I feel like such a jerk because I had my tunes cranked and I couldn't hear him calling my name.

[philw]

Useful - it's good to see boarders taking the challenge.



Certainly these could be considered hero bumps, because they are waaay too forgiving with all the snow we got last night.


You beat me to it: it's all good, but those do look rather friendly.

I'm pretty sure you can't turn as quickly with that stance as a race stance, but it's good to know it can at least be done. It would, as you suggest, be interesting to see that on less friendly bumps. I'm not particularly a sceptic, more just curious how it would look.

[Sooperburd]

Useful - it's good to see boarders taking the challenge.



You beat me to it: it's all good, but those do look rather friendly.

I'm pretty sure you can't turn as quickly with that stance as a race stance, but it's good to know it can at least be done. It would, as you suggest, be interesting to see that on less friendly bumps. I'm not particularly a sceptic, more just curious how it would look.

I think I can turn more quickly with my stance than with higher binding angles. With my lower body pretty much perpendicular to the board, I'm using my quads, glutes, and hamstrings (all powerful muscle groups) to turn the board with my back foot. With more forward angles, the abductors and adductors (much weaker muscles) are the muscles used to turn the board. The weaker muscles simply can't put the same amount of power into the board as the stronger muscles, resulting in slower, more labored turning.

In addition, I'm sighting the line ahead and I can see when I really need to make fast turns. When a fast turn section comes up, I lean more downhill and unweight my back foot. This makes lightning fast turns even easier.

On icier, more defined bumps, I increase my speed over what's in the videos. These nebulous moguls are difficult to sight a line on. The icier ones are actually better for me, and more fun in some ways.

[BlueB]

Nice riding Sooper!
Keep the videos rolling in, guys. We get plenty of good carving vids, but would be nice to see more "bumpy" rides.

As for the angles, I ride moguls better with lower angle and more splay (surf stance). I drop my alpine stance to something like 45/25 or 50/30 for moguls and freeride.
Softies allowed me more mobillity then hard boots, but my feet hurt like hell when riding aggressive, especially on frozen stuf, so I stick to hard boots. They give me more power and precision in trade of for mobillity.

I ride only soft moguls. When they are frozen, the groomers are stellar for carving. Also, it hurts less, that way. ;)

[Rob Stevens]

I think I can turn more quickly with my stance than with higher binding angles. With my lower body pretty much perpendicular to the board, I'm using my quads, glutes, and hamstrings (all powerful muscle groups) to turn the board with my back foot. With more forward angles, the abductors and adductors (much weaker muscles) are the muscles used to turn the board. The weaker muscles simply can't put the same amount of power into the board as the stronger muscles, resulting in slower, more labored turning.



Your "glutes" are your abductors.

The act of "Steering" shouldn't be hampered by the angles of your stance. This is more a function of practice than anything. The body will recruit the muscle groups it needs in either case, but what all riders will find, regardless of stance, is that all of these movements, low angles or high, are supported by the core.

There is no substitute for a strong core. With a weak core, these positions will still be possible, but can only be sustained for short periods.

Thanks for the video. It's important to this discussion to see the degree of pitch that you're riding in order to reference it to the OP's terrain, KT at Squaw.
I was just at Kicking Horse in Golden yesterday on a CASI level 4 shred day. Two of our lead guys work and live there, so of course were super amped to get us on to the gnar. The day started with 50 degree bumps. No ****.
The direct line, with 45 degree displacement of the board, was not an option. If you did not complete each turn and finish across the fall line, you were f u c k e d. Not just a fall, but a good chance of a trip to the hospital would be the result of letting your speed get away from you.
Only a couple of the boys could really dominate it and ,again, they did it with short radius turns, fully finished, with early edge changes and narrow lines of displacement. Of course, following the unevenly spaced and erratically sized troughs was a complete non-starter, unless you were ok with side-slipping alot.
Beleive me, some of the older level 4's were doing just that. Not that they couldn't do it under the right conditions, but these were not the right conditions.

By the way, all of us, to a man, ride duck.

Sooper... If you're into it, I'd like to comment on the vids. Normally, the last thing to come into the picture is planar and dorsiflexion of the feet in a turn. Without it, a rider can have all the knee and hip movement possible, but still require counter-rotation to fully execute a complete turning cycle.
If you wanted to, you could use groomed terrain to set yourself up an imaginary slalom, where the "gates" were as tight together as you could handle.
With a very narrow track in mind, attempt the most turns you can fit into a given amount of vertical.
The goal is fast feet with a stable uper body. Right now, you are countering the boards turning force with opposite movement in the shoulders. This comes from a very flat, unedging board throught the middle phase of the turn. You will still "scrub" in the same way and in the same place, but be "slarving", with more turn shape, beforehand.
Your Centre of Mass will now be stabilized from the Base of Support rather than the upper body countering.

I love more freindly, lower angle bumps like the ones in the vids... You can really work on fast feet and a super direct (zipper) line without worrying about having to get long-lined off the mountain under the rescue heli.

[Sooperburd]

Thanks for all your input, Rob. I have a lot of questions, though.
The act of "Steering" shouldn't be hampered by the angles of your stance. This is more a function of practice than anything. I don't agree. While I am no doctor and don't know the names of all the muscles, I have a mechanical engineering degree. Certain body positions clearly have better power for certain types of movements than others. If the movement is kicking the board from side to side, the running muscles (quads, butt, and hamstrings) are clearly better suited for this than the muscles used for jumping jacks. Do you disagree?
There is no substitute for a strong core. With a weak core, these positions will still be possible, but can only be sustained for short periods.Maybe so, but after a long day of nothing but moguls, my core isn't sore. My legs are plenty sore, though. No leg strength, but lots of core strength does not a good bump rider make.
Thanks for the video. It's important to this discussion to see the degree of pitch that you're riding in order to reference it to the OP's terrain, KT at Squaw.
I was just at Kicking Horse in Golden yesterday on a CASI level 4 shred day. Two of our lead guys work and live there, so of course were super amped to get us on to the gnar. The day started with 50 degree bumps. No ****.
The direct line, with 45 degree displacement of the board, was not an option. If you did not complete each turn and finish across the fall line, you were f u c k e d. Not just a fall, but a good chance of a trip to the hospital would be the result of letting your speed get away from you.
Only a couple of the boys could really dominate it and ,again, they did it with short radius turns, fully finished, with early edge changes and narrow lines of displacement. Of course, following the unevenly spaced and erratically sized troughs was a complete non-starter, unless you were ok with side-slipping alot.
Beleive me, some of the older level 4's were doing just that. Not that they couldn't do it under the right conditions, but these were not the right conditions.What is your point of this story? Are you trying to say the slope in my videos isn't as steep as the ones you ride? So what? The runs in the videos are actually the only bump runs I've hit at Jane this year because there are too many rocks protruding on the steeper ones. I can certainly ride anything I want with plenty of speed and finesse, but I'm not going to trash my board for the sake of showing you thousand-plus posters how tough I am. Sorry for getting crass, I just don't see the place in telling us all about the stuff you ride in a post that is clearly critiquing my riding. I don't want you to get the wrong idea, though, I'm very glad you took the time to watch my videos and comment. But I digress...

Sooper... If you're into it, I'd like to comment on the vids. Normally, the last thing to come into the picture is planar and dorsiflexion of the feet in a turn.You're talking about the bending of the ankles? If so, I can see how it would simplify the movements. Is the point to keep the board really flat to the snow while turning?
Without it, a rider can have all the knee and hip movement possible, but still require counter-rotation to fully execute a complete turning cycle.I understand how counter-rotation is bad for carving, but how is it bad for riding moguls? The force of turning the board must come from legs and core acting on the stationary body on top. Therefore, I don't see being able to make these quick, powerful turns without some counter-rotation, especially without ski poles in my hands. What am I missing here?
If you wanted to, you could use groomed terrain to set yourself up an imaginary slalom, where the "gates" were as tight together as you could handle.
With a very narrow track in mind, attempt the most turns you can fit into a given amount of vertical.
The goal is fast feet with a stable uper body. Excellent idea. I'll try this.
Right now, you are countering the boards turning force with opposite movement in the shoulders. This comes from a very flat, unedging board throught the middle phase of the turn. You will still "scrub" in the same way and in the same place, but be "slarving", with more turn shape, beforehand.There's no time for slarving when your speed really gets up there. Try telling Olympic mogul skiers that they need a more carving type movement. It's just not possible because the moguls come at you too quickly.
Your Centre of Mass will now be stabilized from the Base of Support rather than the upper body countering.What do you mean by Base of Support, and how is it different from upper body countering?

[Rob Stevens]

Thanks for all your input, Rob. I have a lot of questions, though.I don't agree. While I am no doctor and don't know the names of all the muscles, I have a mechanical engineering degree. Certain body positions clearly have better power for certain types of movements than others. If the movement is kicking the board from side to side, the running muscles (quads, butt, and hamstrings) are clearly better suited for this than the muscles used for jumping jacks. Do you disagree?

Sure I do. Your muscles do not work in isolation from each other. To think that a rider using high angles is not recruiting his or her glutes, for example, in a quick turn is wrong and based on a lack of experience with an alpine setup.




Maybe so, but after a long day of nothing but moguls, my core isn't sore. My legs are plenty sore, though. No leg strength, but lots of core strength does not a good bump rider make.

I'm not saying you can ride moguls like you do without strong legs, but in order to keep stable you need a strong core too. Many riders from other sports (like cycling) have very strong legs and little core strenth. These people, when SB'ing can be particularly susceptible to comprimised body positions as their lower body movements cannot be "damped" by the core. To not have a tired core after a day of shredding moguls is not a sign that you don't need it as much as the legs, but that you're not using it as much as you could.




What is your point of this story? Are you trying to say the slope in my videos isn't as steep as the ones you ride? So what? The runs in the videos are actually the only bump runs I've hit at Jane this year because there are too many rocks protruding on the steeper ones. I can certainly ride anything I want with plenty of speed and finesse, but I'm not going to trash my board for the sake of showing you thousand-plus posters how tough I am. Sorry for getting crass, I just don't see the place in telling us all about the stuff you ride in a post that is clearly critiquing my riding. I don't want you to get the wrong idea, though, I'm very glad you took the time to watch my videos and comment. But I digress...

In the original post, the author asked about a technique for riding bumped out pitches of the type you see at Squaw Valley. Generally, Squaw is more in line with KH than the run in your video, where if you fall, you stop soon after. I was trying to explain why I think the line you're showing is somewhat innappropriate, unless you want to risk everything.


You're talking about the bending of the ankles? If so, I can see how it would simplify the movements. Is the point to keep the board really flat to the snow while turning?

I'll give you a hint: How might you flex your ankles in either turn if you wanted to create MORE edge? I certainly didn't want to suggest less.




I understand how counter-rotation is bad for carving, but how is it bad for riding moguls? The force of turning the board must come from legs and core acting on the stationary body on top. Therefore, I don't see being able to make these quick, powerful turns without some counter-rotation, especially without ski poles in my hands. What am I missing here?

Counter rotation is not bad and it definitely has its place in snowboarding. Many moves can't be made without it, so I would never suggest anyone try to lose it, but it can be made with less effect on the upper body, specifically the arms and shoulders. We like to think of the countering force as coming from the upper abdominals of the core. Rather than resisting or creating the turning force with a movement of the upper body, which can create instability. Think about tensing the abs as something to counter against instead. I mentioned this because you're swinging your arms around and getting caught behind in places.




Excellent idea. I'll try this.

In this environment, you can really work on and feel core isolation.




There's no time for slarving when your speed really gets up there. Try telling Olympic mogul skiers that they need a more carving type movement. It's just not possible because the moguls come at you too quickly.

If you were riding a WC mogul course, on a board with no sidecut and not posting on a site where people come to talk about edging in general, I'd agree. As your chosen pitch was less steep, you could emply more edging before the scrub. If you're coming into the scrub too hot because of this, use more edge in the scrub. This would call for more advancement of the board under your core at completion to centre over the back foot for max pressure control. If you try a more edgy scrub with your pivot point still under the front foot, you'll wash.




What do you mean by Base of Support, and how is it different from upper body countering?

Your BoS is your board. Essentially, what you're trying to do to allow your upper body to stay quietly in the fall line during an entire turning cycle (Which youu know). Isolate the countering forces between your upper abdominals and your heel and toe edges. Without strong edging, it's your upper body creating the turning force and not the board, which you paid good money for and might as well use. At this point, you'll probably find that the played, floppy board isn't killing it like you thought it was.

[Sooperburd]

Sure I do. Your muscles do not work in isolation from each other. To think that a rider using high angles is not recruiting his or her glutes, for example, in a quick turn is wrong and based on a lack of experience with an alpine setup.I agree that muscles do not work in isolation. The issue on which I disagree with you is on maximum force.

Say you are laying on your left side, knees bent 30°. You have a stack of weights on top of your right foot. You'd be able to lift (for the sake of argument) 100 pounds with that right leg by abducting the entire leg away from your body.

Now, visualize laying on your back, legs bent 30°, and a stack of weights on top of your right foot. You'd be able to lift substantially more by the kicking motion in this exercise than what you could on your side with an abducting motion.

The major muscle groups used (of course, not in isolation, nothing is in complete isolation) in the kicking motion are the same ones we use for walking and running, and are therefore more powerful. The abducting motion's major muscle groups (again, not used in isolation) are just not as strong as the ones used for the kicking motion.


I'm not saying you can ride moguls like you do without strong legs, but in order to keep stable you need a strong core too. Many riders from other sports (like cycling) have very strong legs and little core strenth. These people, when SB'ing can be particularly susceptible to comprimised body positions as their lower body movements cannot be "damped" by the core. To not have a tired core after a day of shredding moguls is not a sign that you don't need it as much as the legs, but that you're not using it as much as you could.I'm anxious to try this out.

In the original post, the author asked about a technique for riding bumped out pitches of the type you see at Squaw Valley. Generally, Squaw is more in line with KH than the run in your video, where if you fall, you stop soon after. I was trying to explain why I think the line you're showing is somewhat innappropriate, unless you want to risk everything. Ok, thanks for clarifying. No harm done.

I'll give you a hint: How might you flex your ankles in either turn if you wanted to create MORE edge? I certainly didn't want to suggest less.Ohh, I understand. I was thinking something else entirely. This definitely needs a softer binding and boot, right?
Counter rotation is not bad and it definitely has its place in snowboarding. Many moves can't be made without it, so I would never suggest anyone try to lose it, but it can be made with less effect on the upper body, specifically the arms and shoulders. We like to think of the countering force as coming from the upper abdominals of the core. Rather than resisting or creating the turning force with a movement of the upper body, which can create instability. Think about tensing the abs as something to counter against instead. I mentioned this because you're swinging your arms around and getting caught behind in places.Yep, I'll keep this in mind. I think, though, that the turning frequency that I'm interested in is something that I can't rely too much on the sidecut to achieve. I'm talking 3-4 turns per second when things get hairy. Yes, this is approaching the turn frequency of skiers on competition mogul courses.

If you were riding a WC mogul course, on a board with no sidecut and not posting on a site where people come to talk about edging in general, I'd agree. As your chosen pitch was less steep, you could emply more edging before the scrub. If you're coming into the scrub too hot because of this, use more edge in the scrub. This would call for more advancement of the board under your core at completion to centre over the back foot for max pressure control. If you try a more edgy scrub with your pivot point still under the front foot, you'll wash.I totally agree. The snow in the videos was much slower than I am used to, but I was still trying to show the technique I use on faster snow.

Your BoS is your board. Essentially, what you're trying to do to allow your upper body to stay quietly in the fall line during an entire turning cycle (Which youu know). Isolate the countering forces between your upper abdominals and your heel and toe edges. Without strong edging, it's your upper body creating the turning force and not the board, which you paid good money for and might as well use. At this point, you'll probably find that the played, floppy board isn't killing it like you thought it was.
If you're talking about the old Gnu 160 that I wanted to try, that board was quite forgiving on the softer snow. It definitely won't be so nice when the snow gets icy, though.

I think I understand your point about using the core more and shoulders less. I should be putting my quickest inputs into the board utilizing the largest reaction mass possible. Only using my shoulders and arms, I'm leaving out a good sized mass that can be used to provide even more powerful inputs to the board. When I'm not putting the most powerful movements into the board, the larger reaction mass means less flailing. If I have this right, thanks for being patient and explaining this to me!