Madd update

[moxie]

Like many other people here, I was curious about the Madd production status. The following is an email I received today about production.


Chris,

The boards will be in the states by the end of Sept. We are working on a letter now with details regarding grind and tune options and shipping info. Stay tuned....

Cheri

[lonerider]

Originally posted by moxie
Like many other people here, I was curious about the Madd production status. The following is an email I received today about production.


Chris,

The boards will be in the states by the end of Sept. We are working on a letter now with details regarding grind and tune options and shipping info. Stay tuned....

Cheri

Well that seems like a decent reply... I'm totally willing to forgive them for pushing back the delivery time four times from mid-summer to late-August to mid September, to late September. And for redefining the terms of "regular newsletter" and "will get back to you in a few days."

For now, I'm just waiting for my board to come.

[nils]

As someone that also subcontracts the making of the boards, I can say that it is VERY hard to schedule and plan the exact delivery dates for boards that have precise specs: you know what u want at the end but basically that is all.

There are so many ways to make a snowboards, and all the steps have differences in each factory.. for example a change in the resin or cooking temperature implies different flex pattern and board lifespan for example...Then the molds, the fiberglass etc everytime you change a data because of the factory: u need to retest protos, remeasure the specs etc... Its a very long process! There is also problems that can occur in the making, schedules that has the factory with its own production that usually gets priority treatment, etc etc....

Last year for example we had an issue at the factory with bad mold temperature combined with demold agent that was making the topsheet come appart... Took the factory 3 weeks to solve, and costed us 25 rejected boards!! And the factory was only 2 hours drive: I can imagine the nightmare if it was an ocean appart!

I haven't ordered a Madd ( would love to try one ) but all I can say to the impatient clients you are is be patient ! Its already a miracle that someones makes the board again( and at the price you have it ;) !
its worth a few more weeks wait no?

N.

[lonerider]

It's more the wall of silence that Madd gives us about anyway that's the issue, Nils... would you promise several people to send them continual updates on the progress of the board manufacturing and then proceed to never tell them anything about the process? Even ignoring their emails, or replying to their emails and saying all will be told "in a few days" and then just leave them hanging for weeks and/or months?

Nils, you misunderstand the issue... just like John and Shred... the problem is not petty little details like the topsheet graphic or the continually delivery date delays... but the complete lack of professionalism in the way that Madd handles these issues. When they are delays... and a customer ask you about it... you apologize and perhaps even explain why there is a delay (just like you did), you don't blatantly ignore their emails. And yet that is what Madd as a company does on regular basis... ignore customer queries. No one can excuse that type of behavior, and I don't see why all of you keep trying to...

[nils]

okok :)
I get your point! Strange from them cos writing a few emails is quite fast and would have prevent all these posts :)

Please post pics of the madds when u get them!

N.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by nils
okok :)
I get your point! Strange from them cos writing a few emails is quite fast and would have prevent all these posts :)

Please post pics of the madds when u get them!

N.

That's exactly my point... it's not like I'm asking for much. I don't need for a blow-by-blow blog of the company's daily process... a simple 30 seconds "yes, we are very sorry for the delays, but the boardmakers have taken longer than expected" email would have sufficed. I thought as a paid customer I would deserve that very basic courtesy of having my email be replied to in a timely manner and not having to strangle the details out of them, especially when they were so adamant about how they were going to keep us informed with a "regular newsletter" which turned out to be "zero" updates.

I will definitely post photos of my board when I get it, and I'm sure I'll love it and ride it and whatever... but for now I'm just going to ride my longboard skateboard and have fun doing other things until the snow comes.

[Jack Michaud]

My attitude has been that I don't need updates about a product I won't even be able to use for a number of <i>months</i>. Once the snow flies, I'll start to wonder. If I don't have my board by the time conditions are carveable, then I'll get serious.

I agree that this level of communication is unacceptable for a company, but at this point I don't really consider Madd as a "company", rather, a couple of guys having boards made in their spare time because they feel like it - not because it puts food on the table. Madd is back because of the positive vibe that surrounds our sport which has been directed their way. Let's not spoil that.

Sure, it would be <i>nice</i> to get an update here and there. But at the end of the day it's still summer and you still can't ride.

[D-Sub]

its annoying as hell when anyone youre doing business with simply ignores your emails. rude and unprofessional. no two ways about it.

Jack's got a point...far more casual than a normal board company

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
My attitude has been that I don't need updates about a product I won't even be able to use for a number of <i>months</i>. Once the snow flies, I'll start to wonder. If I don't have my board by the time conditions are carveable, then I'll get serious.

I agree that this level of communication is unacceptable for a company, but at this point I don't really consider Madd as a "company", rather, a couple of guys having boards made in their spare time because they feel like it - not because it puts food on the table. Madd is back because of the positive vibe that surrounds our sport which has been directed their way. Let's not spoil that.

Sure, it would be <i>nice</i> to get an update here and there. But at the end of the day it's still summer and you still can't ride.

That would be my attitude in general. Like if I were to have ordered a board from Coiler, I would be perfectly content to just go about life and just wait for my board to come whenever it "is ready." I would have been fine with Madd if they were up front with the fact that they would have limited customer service. However, Madd explicitly stated that it was going to keep customers in the loop on the status of their company, with a bi-weekly newsletter and all that.

It's that hypocrisy... pretending to be something that they were not - that's what annoys me. Even then I held my tongue for other a month, it was only when other people started voicing their concerns (Kirk, Bobdea, MikeT, etc) that I let them know that they were not alone.

I mean you did read the part where I mentioned that while I received no replies to the two latest emails I sent in July about the Madd snowboards. I DID get a quick reply to an email I sent inquirying about possibly making another purchase from them. What would you say to that? For me, it seems like a blatant act of neglect from the part of Madd - that it's too much "trouble" for them to fire off a quick 2 line email saying "sorry for the delays, we will let you know as soon as we know" type email. But the moment I imply that I might give them more money, suddenly I'm an important person again. It's the little things like this that make me understand why Madd Mike's has floundered in the past as company.

Again... I'm sure it will all turn out well and we will get out boards. But if they had just spent a little mroe effort in maintain a channel of communication with their paid customers... I think you wouldn't be seeing all the annoyed posts here (and I'm definitely not the only one).

[GeoffV]

I know we haven't gotten any updates in a long time, but come on the snow is still months away. Heck, Cheri even called me in Aug because she noticed I wasn't on the list to name my board. Back then she said delivery is in mid Sep. Well we still have plenty of time before there are carvable conditions. It will kill me now if I had a brand new MADD sitting in my basement and I can't use it for months.:( I'm just pumped that I actually got an order in for an elite board

:D

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by lonerider

I mean you did read the part where I mentioned that while I received no replies to the two latest emails I sent in July about the Madd snowboards. I DID get a quick reply to an email I sent inquirying about possibly making another purchase from them. What would you say to that?

I agree it's not very professional and frustrating for you. But I give them the benefit of the doubt that snowboarding is probably not the "mode" they're in right now, and that they have to prioritize and ration their customer service efforts. They're probably spread very thin.

I also give them the benefit of the doubt that they're not out to screw anybody and that they'll make good eventually.

I'm simply choosing not to get frustrated yet. It's pretty easy and stress free.

My prediction is that you'll be enjoying your Madd by the time any real cord worth carving is rolled out. Surely you're not hoping to subject your pristine new top-shelf ride to November/December rocks.

Don't you think that checking on your board status in the middle of summer is sort of like micro-managing? I don't respond well to that at work.

As far as I know, Madd isn't like Donek or Prior - guys who have chosen to make snowboards for a career. Madd could easily tire of the customer relations and decide it's not worth it.

[nils]

Italy is a dead country for production in august, almost as bad as France!! the Whole country stops, takes a month off and u just have to wait for them to be back in september :)

N.!

[lonerider]

Everything you have said makes sense, which is why I haven't said anything about Madd in the last two months (as opposed to continual ranting).

However in the end you can't defend Madd... so please stop trying. I am annoyed at Madd, not irrationally furious, just annoyed in a cool collected way, and I believe I have a right to be. I'm not obsessing every minute about Madd... I didn't even think about them for a while... until other people voiced there concerns and I wanted to let them know that they weren't alone. Then suddenly the people keep trying to make excuses for them, when you don't even know the whole story yourself. I understand what you are saying and I have considered them myself... I undestand your opinion, and you are welcome to it. However, being an "outsider" on the snowboard industry, I don't have the ability or the prerogative to give the benefit of the doubt to them for continual missteps. And I'm beginning to get more annoyed at people trying to convince me that I should NOT be slightly displeased at the level of service we all have been receiving. You are welcome to say what you think as I am right now... but realize that you might end up foster more "displeasure" than "acceptance" in your vain attempts to excuse Madd's behavior.


Originally posted by Jack Michaud
Don't you think that checking on your board status in the middle of summer is sort of like micro-managing? I don't respond well to that at work.


I didn't email Madd about the board status. I emailed them about the topsheet (saying that I would prefer to have the original topsheet compared to the "new, improved" topsheet designs) and they replied to me that the boards would finished up "in a week" and that they would email me in "a few days" with a solution to the topsheet dilemma that they were "sure" everyone would be happy about about that there also would a newsletter posting discussing board tuning and delivery options. When a few days turned into a week. I emailed them again just to see what they did about the topsheet because I wanted to see what they decided before they sent to the design to "print".... no reply. When a week turned into a month, I emailed them again just asking for a general update and wondering if they would send me that basic update they promised and to make sure I was on the newsletter list (in case I just wasn't being sent these bi-weekly newsletters that they hyped up back in April)... still no reply.

So I've only sent 4 emails to Madd in total. One to make my order. One to present the results of the topsheet poll here on BOL and two follow-up emails that were never replied to. I see that several other BOL members did something similar to me.

[Jack Michaud]

I'm not saying for a second that you are unjustified or unreasonable. I'm just offering my perspective on the situation and how I am able to deal with it and not worry about it. I don't have any intimate information about Madd. I'm just trying to suggest that there may be reasonable explanations for the silence that we can't imagine.

I do agree that we deserve better communication than what we've gotten, and that there's no excuse for cutting off correspondence in progress. But the reality is that as long as I have my board by the time I can carve it, nothing else really matters to me.

Another reality is that Madd is holding all the chips right now. There was a clamor for their boards, so they brought them back to life. The only leverage we have is our $100 deposits, which is not insignificant, but I don't think Madd is bound by the usual constraints of normal business. They're certainly not going to make much profit out of a two-board, alpine-only lineup (if any). So in many ways, they're doing us a favor by going to the effort of producing another run of their old boards.

[Frappe]

I didn't order one (not enough money to spend on toys like that),
but if I did, and it got there in August, I'd have to spend the next 3 and a half months staring at it.
It would damage productivity, social life, etc, etc.

It's bad enough trying to get some work done in the basement without staring at the quiver.

Seriously though, Madd seems to be run by very laid back people, and that's not a bad thing. The bad thing as I see it is that they said they would keep everyone VERY up to date, and have a frequent newsletter, and they have not.
That's forgivable from a small-production, family company like that in my eyes. As long as the boards are done in time to ride them.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
I'm just trying to suggest that there may be reasonable explanations for the silence that we can't imagine.

There's no reasonable explanation. There's no excuse. They've got a mailing list. An email takes about 30 seconds to send. Nobody is so busy that they can't take 30 seconds to send an email. It's not like they have to respond to everybody individually, even though that wouldn't exactly be a Herculean task, either.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
I'm not saying for a second that you are unjustified or unreasonable. I'm just offering my perspective on the situation and how I am able to deal with it and not worry about it. I don't have any intimate information about Madd. I'm just trying to suggest that there may be reasonable explanations for the silence that we can't imagine.

I do agree that we deserve better communication than what we've gotten, and that there's no excuse for cutting off correspondence in progress. But the reality is that as long as I have my board by the time I can carve it, nothing else really matters to me.

Another reality is that Madd is holding all the chips right now. There was a clamor for their boards, so they brought them back to life. The only leverage we have is our $100 deposits, which is not insignificant, but I don't think Madd is bound by the usual constraints of normal business. They're certainly not going to make much profit out of a two-board, alpine-only lineup (if any). So in many ways, they're doing us a favor by going to the effort of producing another run of their old boards.

Everything you said makes a lot of sense... except perhaps the "reasonable explanation" part, as Neil just remarked upon. But whatever... yes, I agree that having the board sit in my closet would be useless right now. I also agree that they more or less brought "Madd" out of defunct limbo because of the grassroots demand for the boards and so we do owe them some gratitude for that - again though... gratitude only goes so far...

So yea... in the end it isn't the worse thing in the world and you are right, Madd isn't really in it like Donek or Prior so we shouldn't expect the same level of commitment. I've pretty much said my mind and I'm content to leave it at that.

[AlpentalRider]

If Madd Snowboards is operating as a business then they should be held to the same standards as Burton, Donek, etc. There's no excuse for how they have treated their customers, and based on what I've seen they won't be seeing any of my money.

No board is so important for me to spend my hard-earned cash on if I'm not important enough to be responded to in a timely manner. The same goes for Bomber and everyone else.

Matter of fact, I bought my Suzukas from Bomber becuase of how Michelle took the time out of her schedule to talk to me about boots and fit. I could have bought my boots from alot of other places and spent less money, but Bomber got my business because of how they represented themselves. And I will continue to go to Bomber for anything I can because of how I was treated by Michelle. That one experiance has made a repeat customer for them.

I'm sure there are alot of other people out there with the same mentality as myself, and if Madd chooses not to understand that fact, then they would be better off hanging it up becuase they will tarnish their reputation beyond repair - regardless of how good their boards are.

[Jack Michaud]

There's a roadside burger joint in my town with a sign inside that reads:

"This isn't Burger King. You don't get it your way. You take it my way, or you don't get the damn thing."

Often they have lines out the door.

[Mike T]

Yeah, ideally I'd like updates from Madd on a more frequent basis. Lack of communication especially after sending a deposit is kinda annoying.

But I'm not going to sweat it unless it's getting to be around Thanksgiving and I don't have the board, or a timeframe for when I can expect the board.

Good, touchy-feely customer service is something I appreciate and something I'm willing to pay for. For example, I've bought bindings from Bomber and boards from Donek at full price, knowing full well that I could cruise the classifieds and get the same exact item in slightly used condition for less, because I know that if somethiong goes even a little bit wrong, they will go out of their way to make it right.

I know I'm getting my Madd at less-than-full price and that's part of the reason why I am not going to hold "lack of communication" against them at this time. Also, my wife has her own home-based business and is helping a friend with another, and I see the lengths she has to go through to keep her customers happy. Even if it is minorly annoying, I'm more than willing to give Madd the benefit of the doubt... I am quite optimistic that the board will be in the rack in my family room well before there is enough snow to ride it.

I'm not defending Madd's sparse communication, I'm just saying I'm reserving judgment until the transaction is complete, and that I am optimistic that I'll be happy in the end.

-Mike T

P.S. Low-effort suggestion for Madd: a sentence or two update on production once every week or two on the maddmikes.com website.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
There's a roadside burger joint in my town with a sign inside that reads:

"This isn't Burger King. You don't get it your way. You take it my way, or you don't get the damn thing."

Often they have lines out the door.

Likewise, Coiler is perpetually backlogged these days and it doesn't seem like that stops the orders from coming in.

I do agree with Arvin on the Coiler point though... Bruce is very up-front about production schedules, and the fact that he depends on multiple suppliers any of which can impact deliveries... and the fact that everyone in line before you gets the same amount of attention that you're going to get when your number is up. Bruce is not always immediate with email responses (but he does respond eventually), but he provides very unique customer service by designing the board specifically for the rider and to me, that's more important. BTW, I ordered my 2nd Coiler within a week after getting the 1st one...

[Shred Gruumer]

Well, hows this I ordered a Coiler too!

Fuq Ing in March of 2003!!!!! with a good deposit!! its been done and waiting for a top sheet for almost 2 fqing years! hows that!

Well thats the first I have vented online about it!

And still no fricken Coiler! Bruce is probably still flying those silly kites! I'll give him till the pond starts freezing,, then no more mr. Nice guy!

feel that pain! knowing its done but the God dam topsheet guy in Washington (hope your listening!) gets off his arse and make a top sheet worthy to glue onto Balsa!

Dammit!

Shred

[Neil Gendzwill]

That seals it - I was tossing around the idea of a custom topsheet for my Coiler, but I'll stick with one of the stock ones. Hopefully that will increase the likelihood of me being on snow with it this year. Anyone know if Coiler intends on updating their website this year? They've been on vacation since May, apparently.

[D-Sub]

Ive gotten responses from Bruce every time Ive emailed.

pretty impressed with him, actually. no idea about the webpage update but aside from the on vacation part, it seems to work just fine.

could do with some modernization, but...the data is readily available, as needed.

custom topsheet would be sick...but fck that on the long wait!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Was just wondering if he was adding any more stock topsheets. Someone last year had a sort of black and red tribal tatoo dealie on an AM 177 that looked pretty cool and the sort of thing that might have mass appeal. 'spose I could just email him.

[Mike T]

...can you forward 'em to me?

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Was just wondering if he was adding any more stock topsheets. Someone last year had a sort of black and red tribal tatoo dealie on an AM 177 that looked pretty cool and the sort of thing that might have mass appeal. 'spose I could just email him.

I remember that board. definitely looked cool. so did the negative image of the flames someone did.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you look at this thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1603) you'll see that Bobby Buggs has a RaceCarve and bschurman has an AM with the tribal thing I'm talking about. As Bruce has done two, I'm hoping he might make it available as a stock sheet? That thread also has nice pics of the blue and orange flames sheets, better than on the website.

[Mike T]

Mark Harris has that design too. I'm guessing it's available to all.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
There's no reasonable explanation. There's no excuse. They've got a mailing list. An email takes about 30 seconds to send. Nobody is so busy that they can't take 30 seconds to send an email. It's not like they have to respond to everybody individually, even though that wouldn't exactly be a Herculean task, either.

I would normally agree, but here's a hypothetical reasonable explanation that is entirely possible:

These boards will retail for $800. We early birds are getting them for $500 (or was it $550? I forget.) I have actually built about a half dozen snowboards before and it is not out of the question that materials alone could approach $400, if they're truly using the best of everything. Factor in a few trips to the factory <i>in Italy</i>, and goodbye profit - we could be getting the boards at cost. All speculation of course, but if that's the case, then your purchase of a Madd snowboard is not a business transaction, it's a personal favor. When someone asks you to do them a favor, you don't suddenly owe them something.

Considering that, it wouldn't surprise me if all the Madd Snowboards email gets dumped into the "I'll get around to it" file. Sure It's annoying, but we don't really have the same "rights" to flex as consumers as if Madd = Burton. Sure it's common courtesy to respond, but it's too easy to <i>not</i> get upset about it two seasons early.

What if your buddy was an engine tuner and he told you he'd build you a 250hp Miata to race next summer and that he'd do it for the cost of parts. Would you get all bent if he didn't return your calls in the middle of winter? Sure, it's rude not to return calls or emails, but my point is, I wouldn't even be calling.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

What if your buddy was an engine tuner and he told you he'd build you a 250hp Miata to race next summer and that he'd do it for the cost of parts. Would you get all bent if he didn't return your calls in the middle of winter? Sure, it's rude not to return calls or emails, but my point is, I wouldn't even be calling.
Yes, I would. Because I'd be wanting something to race next summer and I'd be needing to know whether it was going to get done or whether I'd have to go elsewhere. Given the situation there or with Madd, I wouldn't get mad if there was going to be a delay. I'd even understand if it wasn't going to get done at all - these guys don't do this for a living. But I'd just like to know about it so that I could make alternate plans.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Yes, I would. Because I'd be wanting something to race next summer and I'd be needing to know whether it was going to get done or whether I'd have to go elsewhere.

I doubt anyone is going to be totally up the creek if they don't get their Madd in time.

[bschurman]

Jeez! I got an email last night from Cheri and all indications are that they will be ready by the end of September.

But if they aren't ready by then, you'll just have to wait longer.


->Ben

[Kirk]

I e-mailed Cheri this past week, inquiring about any further updates prior to the boards being finished and shipped. I received a reply, similar to Chris (aka Moxie), within a day or two.

When I sent the one e-mail (which was simply inquiring about the dececion on graphics) and got no response, I sort of forgot about it. But the anticipation/excitement wouldn't relent, so I reopened the top sheet thread. I hadn't heard what the verdict was on the graphics and wanted to know if anyone else had received some info, rumors, etc. BTW, some appreciation must go out to lonerider for initiating that and allowing us future Madd owners to be heard on the subject. And it sounds like they took our frustrations/input into consideration. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Hey, it's summer time and it's probable that they were out of town, on vacation or something when I emailed them in August. Not attacking or defending the lack of response - just my suspicion. I'm confident that we'll get our Madds before any significant snowfall.

BTW, Madd Mikes website does sorta have a disclaimer under "Product and Price Info" "... if it's blowing or snowing, we may not answer."

From my interactions with Madd so far, e-mails and phone conversations with Cheri, I would say that they are very interested in retaining our business. Cheri has been very nice to work with. Does the communication need improvement? Yeah, kinda seems that way.

Bottom line folks, when we get our Madds and scribe out our first lines in the cord, I suspect we'll forget about this conversation altogther;)

[John Gilmour]

I don't have much to do with this run of boards- what with my injuries and so forth...but I did see Mike a few days ago. He's busy installing web cameras....something has to pay the rent. lol.

Anyway from experience either we land boards by late September or we get pushed back from other construction orders for more profitable things as we compete for lamination time.

Historically we clear the decks through customs before X-mas. The worst ever delivery was in February- but I certainly would not expect that scenario....we had a factory flood that caused that. So far all the Flooding is in Florida.
________
Manufacturing Uk (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Manufacturing_UK)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
I don't have much to do with this run of boards- what with my injuries and so forth...but I did see Mike a few days ago. He's busy installing web cameras....something has to pay the rent. lol.

Anyway from experience either we land boards by late September or we get pushed back from other construction orders for more profitable things as we compete for lamination time.

Historically we clear the decks through customs before X-mas. The worst ever delivery was in February- but I certainly would not expect that scenario....we had a factory flood that caused that. So far all the Flooding is in Florida.

Hope you are healing well JG! Thanks for all the advice of Madd boards and longboard skateboards you've given me the past few months!

An interesting contrast to the current Madd crew, John manage to send me several email replies and even post on BOL twice, despite being in so much pain from his surgeries sometimes that is was painful for him to even sit up and type. I totally didn't expect him to reply back so quickly because of his injuries and travels, and yet he made the effort to get back to me when he could. Compare this to the "recent" Madd email activity that occured only after several complaints were made on BOL. You draw your own conclusions... you know my position, and Jack's position on the otherside is well explained as well.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Yes, I would. Because I'd be wanting something to race next summer and I'd be needing to know whether it was going to get done or whether I'd have to go elsewhere.

And another thing, I'm simply trusting that the boards will be done in time, so there's no need for me to check up on them.

[John Gilmour]

I hope it doesn't matter as to who from Madd replies. You guys better tear it up for me this winter....I'm sidelined until Argentina's season.
________
Brain Disorders Forums (http://www.health-forums.org/brain-disorders/)

[LeeW]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
I hope it doesn't matter as to who from Madd replies. You guys better tear it up for me this winter....I'm sidelined until Argentina's season.

Hey John, I'd like to know what's the status with your injury and how you're healing so far. I know you got fubar, but sorta forgot what kind of injury it was and how you got it.

My broken tibula is healing ratherly nicely plus just got a couple of orders in from the race equipments plus a hold-up finance-sorting to get some of those bomber stuffs. (Kudos to Fin and Michelle for putting up with my money dough mess) I look forward to start racing, and as for you NASTAR posters, many thanks for posting your feedbacks/comments.

Off to Albuquerque Horse Race State Fair I go to. Gotta work and make ends meet, u know? Madd ain't that cheap, either alongside Bomber bindings and race equipments. I know for one that Im not complaining about the delay with Madd snowboard manufacturing since I am experienced with working in the snowboard industry (Lib Tech/Supernatural). Things doesn't always go the way they're supposed to or planned to. So either put up with it or chill out and smoke. The money for racing equipment's gotta go somewhere. Compulsive buyer? Nah. Compulsive gate bashing wanna-be olympian? Yep.

[John Gilmour]

http://www.arthroscopy.com/nucleus/Knee3c.jpg
List of injuries

Right leg. Torn ACl (Partial- it's dead now), Torn PCL, Torn lateral meniscus , 4 inch fracture (fell off like a torn off balcony) tibia plateau fracture (most peoples fractures are like 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch), partial tear medial collateral ligament, shifted patella after surgery, crushed quadricep with calcification globs in it. Hip flexor sprain. basically out of the above drawing- only 3 structures did not sustain damage in my front knee.

On to the left leg.
Complete severing of the ACL, severing of the PCL, Lateral collateral ligament tear + sprain (really bad hurt for over 4 months instead of a few weeks- very unstable) http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/aha_lacollig_sma.htm
Medial Meniscus tear, Crushed knee cap. Bone fracture to lower left tibia (But they never caught it with so much other stuff going on since I don't swell up- never casted- luckily it healed on its own. I couldn't even move my legs an inch without severe pain. A missed diagnosis bonus- broken 1,2,5, metarsals, crushed sesmoid bones in ball of foot.

Upper Body.
Left shoulder
http://www.hopkinssportsmedicine.org/patientguides/labrumtear/images/labrum001.gif
http://www.hopkinssportsmedicine.org/patientguides/labrumtear/images/labrum003.gif
Detachment of Labrum - First- this holds the shoulder in joint and deepens the socket of the ball socket joint. It also attaches to the rotator cuff and bicep. "The second function of the labrum is as an attachment of other structures or tissues around the joint. For example, the ligaments that help hold the joint together attach to the labrum in certain key locations. If there is an injury to the shoulder that tears the ligaments, sometimes the labrum is pulled off of the rim of the bone"

Lovely- that is what happened. When I hit the last tree and my shoulder was put behind my back I tore the Labrum, Rotator cuff, and also to my surprise discovered during surgery- ripped my bicep tendon . For you carvers out there- don't ride with your arms outstretched- you could end up like this....and BTW- try to avoid hitting a bunch of trees at 45mph.

The treatment is sometimes worse than the cure. I had a plate and (5) 4" long screws drilled into my tibia, they sewed up the Meniscus (But I feel the scarring) scoped out my patella to remove cartilidge and smooth out chrondromalicia. This was very painful- but the narcotics were flowing freely.
Dilaudid , the chapagne of Heroin, a morphine cousin was my savior. I survived without painkillers for 4 days prior to the surgery- but afterwards I had no choice. That surgery was done Feb 19th. I could not walk for 3 months. I had to use a wheelchair after that - then a walker- then crutches- and then learn to walk again with a lot of nerve damage to my legs.

The shoulder was done July 26th. shaved away the bone on my scapula, reattached the Labrum, sewed up the rotator cuff and pulled down the cuff in a Bankart Repair. The shaving of the bone in the scapula was very painful. It was done arthroscopically- though they thought they would have to open it up- he managed to keep it all inside.


What's left? They will drill holes in my left knee cap to help induce healing of the crushed area. The left leg also needs the ACL reattached- likely I'll do a hamstring graft where they harvest the tendon to make a ligament and drill through your knee. I probably won't bother to repair the right foot at this point. I may have to wait to reattach the ACl from the right leg. I won't bother to repair the PCL since prognosis from that is uncertain.

THE results so far?

The tibia healed perfectly- even though it was one of the worst they have seen. Fracture Surgeon I had was a genius (For real). The Meniscus and ligaments around the knee suffered significant scarring reducing my flexion. I have trouble with the last 15 degrees. I atrophied completely in my right leg (It was the size of my arm). I have patellal tracking issues now- which I am trying to fix. (I'm not as impressed with the knee surgeon). I can not run yet, but can walk without a limp for short distances.

The left leg- nothing has been done- but it has stabilized somewhat and is less painful- except the Medial ligament still hurts when moving laterally.

The right shoulder is almost perfect after 7 weeks post op. My shoulder surgeon is amazing- he has now repaired both shoulders. I have full confidence that it will return being stronger than new like the other one did. Almost no scarring internally either.

I'm out for snowboarding this season, out for the World skateboard racing championships.

I don't know how stable my knees will be on the slopes. it is possible that things will feel fine on the lift, but when I Actually try to ride and exert flexed lateral forces on my knees I will be unable to and will have to get a sled down. It is possible that I may not be able to ride again- mostly not because of the fractures- but damage to so many ligaments that stabilize the knee laterally. Should I be able to ride- I think some Colorado groomers would be the best physical therapy- mentally and physically. I went riding with Troy Smart, who has several knee issues similar to mine, to teach him alpine last year. Though he was able to do it well, he had to quit after 3-4 runs due to knee pain. I know many ride with knee damage as I have done for the past 7 years, but this time, it might be too painful to deal with.

I certainly would have to start riding on perfect cord at first, any jarring motion would likely send me back to the drawing board.

I spoke to Cheri last night- the boards are due to be shipped soon.
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[Jack Michaud]

Jeezum H Crow. Sounds like you're lucky to be alive. You're in our prayers. Don't rush back onto the board sports - hopefully you'll have many years of carving ahead of you.

Care to elaborate on the accident itself? If you remember, that is.

[John Gilmour]

I was riding a teleboard. You can push these things into turns a lot like skiis- going into a very high speed olympic downhill turn whilst skidding and then the board hooks up- as opposed to the average Alpine snowboard which can Hop and chop when overloaded.

I was having fun- after only 3 days with only 12,000 vertical feet on the tele board I took 4th in the world championships that morning. A few guys saw me ride it two days earlier. I can ride that teleboard and flex it like its never been flexed before- unfortunately it turned the hammer against me.

Well I was doing about 40-45mph- much faster than I have ever dared go on this particular trail- essentially no turns at all until this point 1/2 way down. I did a massive heelside into a huge extended laydown at speed toeside. I had done this run earlier in the day, yet this time missed seeing a bump in flat light, unset the edge and went sailing backwards through the air towards the trees. I managed to hook the snow with the tip of the board- spin around just in time to take two parallel trees across BOTH knee caps and the sides of both knees (outside side of left knee, inside side of right knee ). I was diagonally flying through the air when I hit the trees.

My knees bent backwards/sideways and snapped.

As I thought I would break my back if I continued the wrap around the trees- so I twisted during the blow.

Bounced off the two trees and my knees were useless now, and then hit another tree while flying almost upside down at 30mph with my left shoulder.

IF they had been big mature trees with thick layers of bark- I could have Spread the impact somewhat like hitting a flat wall- but instead they were about 6-7 inches in diameter- instead of hitting a flat wall it was like hitting the corner of a cinderblock- I felt all my tissues cleave.

The sound of the impact resonated and was a huge WHOOOOMMMMP! followed by another. I couldn't hear anything for a few seconds.

I wasn't wearing a helmet. If I had hit my head I would have cut the helmet in two. I was lucky not to snap my spine.

I managed to get out of my bindings- which were holding me in an intolerably painful position. Dragged my body by my right arm grabbing weeds and sticks to get back onto the trail so I wouldn't pass out in the woods.

I managed to keep conscious. I was able to wiggle my toes so I knew I wasn't paralyzed. So I was pretty calm. I knew I had an excellent shoulder surgeon and wasn't worried about that- though my knees troubled me.

I was wearing a huge Rector Fat Boy vert skating knee pad on my lead knee. http://www.usretailgroup.com/images/RTFBK.jpg
You see these x-games guys bail in the Half pipe from 15 feet out onto their knees with no problem. This was enough force to split my tibia right through all that padding. I figured without it my knee would be in a million pieces.

Evel Knievel doesn't have anything on me- I stay conscious- he goes into comas.

I've seen other people during my rehab with much more minor tibia plateau fractures- none of them are walking well at all. I'm very lucky.

I was taken by ambulance to a hospital I didn't like- I had myself transfered by ambulance to another with my familiar trama team who have treated me successfully before. I did not get my knee surgeon of choice though for the first operation.

Hot nurses? ZERO.
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[LeeW]

By the way, I wish you the speedy recovery to 110% health. :D

[CarvCanada]

it is it's a stock topsheet

when my board was finished, Bruce contacted me and told me that he had this new topsheet, attached a pic of it and offered to put either the Blue Flames I originally wanted on the board, or this new one.. either way the board came that week

Keep hope JG! Human bodies can do ridiculous recoveries. I had a bad Tib/Fib last year and had to have a metal rod put in, but after working on my legs non-stop for just 4 months. I could walk no problem, and after 9 months now, the leg I broke is stronger than the one I didn't, and just as agile.
Take it easy and dont push boarding too early, and you'll be trench-diggin hard again I hope! :)

[LeeW]

Originally posted by CarvCanada
it is it's a stock topsheet

when my board was finished, Bruce contacted me and told me that he had this new topsheet, attached a pic of it and offered to put either the Blue Flames I originally wanted on the board, or this new one.. either way the board came that week

Keep hope JG! Human bodies can do ridiculous recoveries. I had a bad Tib/Fib last year and had to have a metal rod put in, but after working on my legs non-stop for just 4 months. I could walk no problem, and after 9 months now, the leg I broke is stronger than the one I didn't, and just as agile.
Take it easy and dont push boarding too early, and you'll be trench-diggin hard again I hope! :)

Are you the same h.s. kid that broke his tib/fib as I did too ?