Please dont yell at me.

[jburrill]

If TD3's are so good, then why arent WC racers using them? I did some research and saw that (in FIS race photos) most men are on F2 or Phiokka bindings. And the ladies are using Burton, F2 , and Phiokka. I did not see anybody racing on Bombers. Nor have I ever seen anybody except for a couple of guys like Mort (using Bombers) in my previous but limited racing experience. Now, Im not going to be racing any world cups soon. Id just like to ride like I will be. Im torn, should I just snap and buy some TD3's because they look so damn nice.

[inkaholic]

Fin has a racer version that to my knowledge isn't yet being offered to the public. Testing of this version was well received by men, women and light weight riders last season.

Yes, most are on F2, phioka etc. but that may be changing in the very near future.

You'll have to wait and see the new product, aka. Sidewinder

Ink

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I believe the key reason has been based around flex. The F2 tends to allow more flex ( more forgiveness so to speak). The TD3 has to some degree addressed this issue. The new "Race TD3 Mods" are evidently going another step further to improve the flex (Feel) for those that want more movement.

TD3 has not been available very long, those that have them are big fans.

F2 is somewhat limited in terms of canting options , or at least not as simple as the Bomber TD series.

Just a few reasons, more will follow I am sure.

Yes, the are burly, work well and I am not a racer.

I ride F2s on my powder boards currently.

[carvedog]

THEY ARE GOOD BECAUSE WE HAVE DECIDED THEY ARE AND YOU SHOULD BUY SOME BECAUSE FIN WILL HUNT YOU DOWN IF YOU DON'T.

Kidding. I thought the earlier ones were a bit stiff too.

I had my grubby little mits on a pair of TD3s for about a week and I think they are genius.
Waaaaay adjustable. I have never ridden any canting and I want to try some.

Why after 17 years? Why not? just trying to mix it up.

I ride mostly Burton's now and like the flex. I think it will change where the flex occurs but I am looking forward to the SIs and the Fintec heel to complete the package.

[inkaholic]

Sidewinder even got Thor off Burton Race Plates. He put all BRP's up for sale after testing the Sidewinder version.

Think side to side adjustable movement without having to loosen the bails to the point they may not hold you in very well.

There may be a photo (not close up) in the Happy Fun Plate thread. Ben Fairchild and many on the Steamboat team were testing them last season.

I don't think Fin has an Intec version of the Sidewinder. We'll have to wait and see.

Ink

[Hans]

It doesn't matter what racers use, TD3's are just the most awesome bindings on the planet right now. And that's the only thing what counts ;) :D

[MUD]

I think with bindings it comes down to what you like for flex.....

I personally LOVE Burtons but with me now riding a metal board and weighing around 200lbs, they make me nervous (tend to ride nastier terrain now, was afraid of braking them). I was torn between the F2's and the "sidewinders" Since the Sidewinders only exist for racers so far, I got tired of waiting and got F2's. Snow is close.

I find TD3's too stiff, especially the step-in's.... You could even say WAY too stiff.

[RCrobar]

Hi Fin

Since the TD3 Race/Sidewinder side to side flex system seems to be 'out of the bag' and talked about in several different threads. Do you think you could find it in your heart to post a picture for the average Joe who haven't seen the prototype yet? :ices_ange

Christmas the Olympics are just around the corner, show some holiday spirit a bit early!

Thanks either way.
Rob

[Hans]

Hi Fin

Since the TD3 Race/Sidewinder side to side flex system seems to be 'out of the bag' and talked about in several different threads. Do you think you could find it in your heart to post a picture for the average Joe who haven't seen the prototype yet? :ices_ange

Christmas the Olympics are just around the corner, show some holiday spirit a bit early!

Thanks either way.
Rob

Have asked for the same @ Fin. Especially cause there were some Swoardguys who claimed they have already ridden them last season!
So, where is that nice upgrade. May be Fin is just busy to make a large stock of it before .............

[pow4ever]

Hi Fin

Since the TD3 Race/Sidewinder side to side flex system seems to be 'out of the bag' and talked about in several different threads. Do you think you could find it in your heart to post a picture for the average Joe who haven't seen the prototype yet? :ices_ange

Christmas the Olympics are just around the corner, show some holiday spirit a bit early!

Thanks either way.
Rob

Second!!!! Plan to pick it up when it's available pending that it's also suitable for the non racer.

--
David

[inkaholic]

Second!!!! Plan to pick it up when it's available pending that it's also suitable for the non racer.

--
David

Thor Von Rippington is non racer.

Ink

[jburrill]

Thanks for the responses. And the sidewinder is sick. That does it. TD3. I remember using my TD1's. I could rip the sickest carves on the bluest ice. Yes they were stiff and thats why I could rip on them. I used to ride the Burton Plates when the snow was softer but could never really rip with the leverage of Bombers. As I developed more finesse in my riding, I was able to appreciate the versitility of Burtons, but the wow factor was just not there. So, to heck with race performance (Ill use Burtons for that). I just want to get back to kicking some ass on bindings that will let me do that.
Im going to buy some TD3's right now before I cool off.

[nekdut]

I'm going to buy some TD3's right now before I cool off.

You won't regret it at all! :)

[Jack Michaud]

I'm in Falmouth. :)

You won't be disappointed with the TD3, and you'll be able to upgrade it to Sidewinder if you want.

Racers seek flexible-flyer bindings because they have to deal with bone-jarring race ruts. We freecarving weekend warriors do not.

See you up at the loaf??

[MUD]

Sounds like you will love them.

And if not, they have a great resale value.

[NateW]

I don't know what racers see in those other bindings. I'm am sure there's something - I'm sure they've made informed decisions. Conventional wisdom says it's about flex, and that seems plausible enough. However it's not worth it to me. I got tired of breaking bindings a long time ago, but TDs have been good to me. I'm honestly afraid to ride anything that looks less robust.

When I see racers on bindings that look as robust and reliable as TDs, I'll consider riding what racers ride. Until then I'll be riding TDs because they inspire more confidence that anything else I can find (Cateks being a very close 2nd).

[philw]

Well, I'm not a racer, but assuming we're not playing fanboys... the appeal of the F2 bindings to me is basically simplicity and elegance.

I know there's also elegance in our host's (and Catek's) "machined from a solid block of aluminium" approach. They're clearly fine pieces of engineering. I almost bought copies of both just to have the pleasure of holding them (I'm not kidding).


Size
But the US designs are very big. Rather like American cars which obviously make sense to people in the US, to me they are just big. I weight 62 kilos, and I've never broken a bail, although I've broken a few boots. The bindings aren't going to break. I don't need heavier, bigger, stronger. I like light, small, neat.

Settings
I don't need to adjust everything to the micron level. In fact settings worry me as they can move, plus I don't want to have to worry about them as I shift boards. So I like a simple binding which I can set up once and then leave alone. I re-tweak the bindings pretty much only when I change boots.

Height
I don't like a lot of height above my board. I know that you can get F2s with spacers under them and I know lots of fast people deliberately use lift. For me, it's just more stuff, and more stuff to go wrong.


I find the discussion on flex interesting. When I first moved to F2 (or "Proflex" as they were then) I found them incredibly responsive, although I think that was probably the move to Intec heels which I did at the same time. Obviously with all this you need to consider the whole system - at least the boots plus the bindings.


I'll be watching with interest future releases from all the companies - I'm sure this can be done better, but "better" means different things to different people.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

How are F2s "less robust"? Because they're not entirely CNCed out of metal? Or do you think you're going to destroy the bindings that 75%+ of professional alpine snowboarders seem to use?

I'm just curious. I've been surprised lately at the number of people I've seen hawking TD1s and OS1s to "new/returning alpiners," for not much less than the price at which they could snag a used pair of new F2s. I'm sorry, but IMO both of those are clearly substandard bindings by today's standards – and I rode TD1s for a year before switching back to Burton Race plates in '03 I believe it was.

I guess maybe it depends where you're riding as well – if you only have great snow in your area, or much poorer conditions (say out east)?

Just some thoughts.

greg

[Jack Michaud]

Well, I'm not a racer, but assuming we're not playing fanboys... the appeal of the F2 bindings to me is basically simplicity and elegance.

I know there's also elegance in our host's (and Catek's) "machined from a solid block of aluminium" approach. They're clearly fine pieces of engineering. I almost bought copies of both just to have the pleasure of holding them (I'm not kidding).


Size
But the US designs are very big. Rather like American cars which obviously make sense to people in the US, to me they are just big. I weight 62 kilos, and I've never broken a bail, although I've broken a few boots. The bindings aren't going to break. I don't need heavier, bigger, stronger. I like light, small, neat.

TD2 and 3 are lighter than the TD1. The size of them is dictated by the cant/lift adjustment mechanism. The screws that mount the top plate to the cant disk have to reside on a circle outside the center disk.


Settings
I don't need to adjust everything to the micron level. In fact settings worry me as they can move, plus I don't want to have to worry about them as I shift boards. So I like a simple binding which I can set up once and then leave alone. I re-tweak the bindings pretty much only when I change boots.

TD3s can be unmounted and re-mounted whole, without disassembling or changing any settings. And on TD2s and 3s, all settings are quantifiable and readable right on the binding - in other words, easily repeatable. Also once mounted, the settings cannot move, back out, wiggle, rattle, etc.


Height
I don't like a lot of height above my board. I know that you can get F2s with spacers under them and I know lots of fast people deliberately use lift. For me, it's just more stuff, and more stuff to go wrong.

TD2s are lower than TD1s. TD3s are slightly higher than TD2s (maybe the same height as TD1?) due to the improved dampening mechanism which was enlarged due to popular demand.

And if you want any cant and/or lift, you are going to have to accept some increase in height no matter what binding.

[Phil]

Or do you think you're going to destroy the bindings that 75%+ of professional alpine snowboarders seem to use?


I don't think, I know. Many of us here have broken those bindings repeatedly. I will only go with bindings that have little chance of breakage (I only ride Bombers). That is my #1 criteria for bindings.

I would put up with less performance for the sake of NEVER having a foot release from breakage. Luckily, with TD's of any vintage, I don't feel like I have to compromise.

[carvedog]

I don't think, I know. Many of us here have broken those bindings repeatedly. I will only go with bindings that have little chance of breakage (I only ride Bombers). That is my #1 criteria for bindings.

I would put up with less performance for the sake of NEVER having a foot release from breakage. Luckily, with TD's of any vintage, I don't feel like I have to compromise.

Metal fatigues over time and use.

I have personally seen at least three different TD1s break bail.

[Phil]

Metal fatigues over time and use.

I have personally seen at least three different TD1s break bail.

Agreed, but I have lost count of the Burton failures.

I don't ride my TD1's anymore, they are too old and have hundreds of days on them. When I deem my TD2's to be too old, I won't ride them either. Hopefully my judgment on their fatigue will be wise enough to preclude breakage.

[Bordy]

This is a really played out argueement, and well since Jack always wants to pimp the TD I guess I'll play the other side or well some side?

Do bindings break: Yes all bindings break some times including metal bindings, lots of times bail breakage is caused by miss adjustment that places stress on the bails and sole plate.

Are Metal bindings stiffer then plastic, well unless your Matt Morrison and you have milled a F2 heel plate out of aluminum then yes, Well even Matt says his metal part hinders the board feel and flex he enjoys, it's worth the durability.

Do some of the heavest guys on the planet that rider harder then you can imagain ride F2s with out them breaking: well yes, yes they do, heck even klug and smith rode burtons for a decade plus of course soom time the burtons .

Are the new sidewinders different: yes, and if you buy TD3s you maybe able to upgrade them later?

What binding should you buy? I really don't know there are a ton of varibles, stiff board vs stiff boots etc....

If you really are not sure what binding to buy and you don't have the option to demo gear, then perhaps your best bet is to call Fin or myself and ask questions Fin sells the TD3 and the Ibex, allthough he of course would like you to be on the TD3 if your not a canadate for the binding he will let you know, we want to make you happy. You can also contact Hardbooter and we will share our knowledge with you.

Although I think the forum is a great way to ask questions, the answer you recive often have other motives. Also many riders may not have your style, gear or terrain and allthough they really want to give you good advise it may not be your best optition...

Just one guys who sells several bindings opinion..

[NateW]

How are F2s "less robust"? Because they're not entirely CNCed out of metal? Or do you think you're going to destroy the bindings that 75%+ of professional alpine snowboarders seem to use?

Yes. I've broken all-metal bindings from Burton and Nitro, and flailing down the hill with one boot loose is terrifying. Whatever advantage the F2s might have, it's not worth it to me if the bindings are any less strong.

How often to the pros break bindings? I vaguely remember hearing about a top-tier PGS rider with a large collection of spare parts for Burton bindings.

[NateW]

Metal fatigues over time and use.

I have personally seen at least three different TD1s break bail.

...which is another reason I ride intec, and more recently, fintec. The heel blocks seem stronger than bails, and there's relatively little stress on the toe bails so I don't worry about those at all. The aluminum heel do blocks wear out, but at least that's a problem that you can see coming well in advance.

[Istvan]

Well... bindings do break. I myself managed to brake 1 TD2 bolt, 1 normal and 2 Ti bails in the last couple of seasons. And all this happened on wide EC boards. Never broke a binding on a narrower board (and I ride narrower boards most of the time). I guess binding angles have something to do with the forces on the bails.

Maybe that is the reason why racers do not brake bindings that often. And I guess also the suspension systems / plates absorb some of the shock.



ps.: to give credit where credit is due: the Bomber team replaced all the broken parts immediately :1luvu:

[WinterGold]

Well... bindings do break. I myself managed to brake 1 TD2 bolt, 1 normal and 2 Ti bails in the last couple of seasons. And all this happened on wide EC boards. Never broke a binding on a narrower board (and I ride narrower boards most of the time). I guess binding angles have something to do with the forces on the bails.

Maybe that is the reason why racers do not brake bindings that often. And I guess also the suspension systems / plates absorb some of the shock.



ps.: to give credit where credit is due: the Bomber team replaced all the broken parts immediately :1luvu:

But most racers don´t use narrow boards and therefore relatively lower binding angles. So it would be the other way round ...
And I don´t think that racers would risk breakage during their runs, because that would lose them the race.
I talked to the constructor of the Ibex plate and he told me that if breakage is really a problem on his bindings then he wonders why hardly any spare parts are ordered from him at the moment ... but I´m not saying that it does not happen!

[Istvan]

Sorry, I was not specific enough. I broke bails on boards with 22-23 cm waist. Never broke bindings on boards with 17-18cm waist. Racers currently ride boards with a waist around 20cm.

[WinterGold]

Sorry, I was not specific enough. I broke bails on boards with 22-23 cm waist. Never broke bindings on boards with 17-18cm waist. Racers currently ride boards with a waist around 20cm.

But maybe it is more the riding style (EC) ... I don´t know ... what angles are you using on your EC boards?
Racers often have low angles (between 45° and 50° on the back foot).

[Istvan]

EC: F57-58 B52-53
Other: F65 B60

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yes. I've broken all-metal bindings from Burton and Nitro, and flailing down the hill with one boot loose is terrifying. Whatever advantage the F2s might have, it's not worth it to me if the bindings are any less strong.
Well, I've broken Burton Race Plate heel plates, and many years ago I did bend a TD1 heel bail and popped out mid-carve.

(For the record, the F2 is a different binding from the Burton IMO. Some people seem to be equating the two, which I'm not sure is correct.)

In any case, I guess my point was that it seems like a relatively moot point to me: professional racers seem to almost universally use stiff boots with flexy binding attachments (usually on a plate, now). I don't know if anyone uses stiff bindings any more; the new TD3 (and its subsequent variations that we keep hearing about!) seems to be proof of this trend.

Cheers,
greg

[NateW]

I talked to the constructor of the Ibex plate and he told me that if breakage is really a problem on his bindings then he wonders why hardly any spare parts are ordered from him at the moment ... but I´m not saying that it does not happen!

After breaking one binding, and cartwheeling down the hill with one leg out, and knowing that there's a more robust product available... would you replace the part you've already proven isn't strong enough? Maybe once, but not twice.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who ride less robust bindings and don't break them, and it's great that they have more affortable options that meet their needs.

For those of us who have broken too much already, Phil said it best:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=265873&postcount=20

[Bordy]

After breaking one binding, and cartwheeling down the hill with one leg out, and knowing that there's a more robust product available... would you replace the part you've already proven isn't strong enough? Maybe once, but not twice.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who ride less robust bindings and don't break them, and it's great that they have more affortable options that meet their needs.

For those of us who have broken too much already, Phil said it best:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=265873&postcount=20

Nate,

I have broken every binding out there and I am a light weight. I really only think Burton Bindings with the clear plastic, or very old plastic 3-hole variplates are going to break. I am just surprised when any other binding breaks... For the record this also includes intec binding from several manufactors. Including metal binders such as fins wonderful bombers, cateks, phoikkkas, Ibex-Burtons, F2, deeluxe, and snowpros, also back in the day I used to blow up emery surfs like they were butter.

The only reason I make this stament is becuase, I truley beleave anybinding can and may fail, to tell people metal binding don't fail or are stronger may or may not be a true statement..... It just depends on your own personal experance.... I wish I could just screw the dam board to my feet!

Then again I have binding that I have had from the early 90's that are still up and running problem free, Go Figure?

Again just my experance........

[philw]

Some interesting stuff there.

In my case I blew my boot apart whilst trying to break my bindings, and ultimately broke my ankle as a consequence. I'm sure I could pull the inserts out of the board with my "cheap" F2 bindings. They are over engineered.

So I'm curious about bindings which break. Especially when these burly racer chaps don't break them.

How precisely did these bindings break? Do you have a few photos of the fractures? I don't doubt anyone's word: I want to look at the fractures. You could be getting brittle (cold temperature) failures, or it could be fatigue (from some continually acting repetitive stress), or it could be a crack from a manufacturing defect or design defect, or something else.

There may be some things which riders are doing which increase the likelihood of failure.

[NateW]

There may be some things which riders are doing which increase the likelihood of failure.

I know what my problem is... Most of my binding failures have been from park riding, hitting a mid-sized jump with a little bit less speed than I should have, thus landing on the 'knuckle' rather than the steeper landing slope. (This is something I never do deliberately, but accidents happen.)

I separated the top and bottom parts of an all-metal Nitro bindings, then ripped the screws out of the (metal) baseplate, then gave up on those. Bent the crap out of some Burton bails (similar scenario but smaller size - that one happened in moguls). Switched to Bombers and Cateks. Had similar issues when I was running bails (TD1, Catek WC), but never actually bent or broke the bails. Switched to intec and haven't had a problem since.

Never had an issue "just riding" or even "just carving" except once when I was trying to find the right spacing between the toe and heel with bail bindings. If you run too tight, the boot sole deforms and this contributes to surprise release.

Intec satisfied me, but Fintec made me very happy.

[NateW]

The only reason I make this stament is becuase, I truley beleave anybinding can and may fail, to tell people metal binding don't fail or are stronger may or may not be a true statement.....

I've heard of broken Bombers so I know it's possible. If I knew of something stronger, I'd ride that instead. But Intec Bombers haven't failed me yet, so I continue to recommend them.

The Burtons that let me down were 100% metal. I don't remember the model name. Old-school 5-hole bolt pattern. I really liked the design, they had some flex built in, but in a way that looked pretty strong (and probably was pretty strong) but the bails bent too easily.

[benttech]

Taking a shot in the dark here,
but Im guessing racers replace their bindings far more often then us mere mortals :) hence the low risk of breakage.

I bought my first TD2s two years ago and hope to put another 3 on them. Id go bankrupt if I had to buy a few pairs of bindings every season, but for racers it might be a fact of life, and no matter how you cut it, F2s are way way cheaper than bombers.

[pokkis]

I think on Bombers, as on F2's, most breaking parts are bails. So you neeed to replace them (hopefully) before they brake.

I was first Burton bindings on ninteens, get pissed about constant bail breakage. Switched then to TD1's, but they were quite stessfull for bords and also too precise. Then i moved to F2 Intecs, was happy with them but got bored to switch them board to board, so i went to TD 2's with second board option. Now when you can get suspension kit and steel receivers for them world is saved. Easy to change bindings from board to board and no more breakage.

My EC friends are constantly breaking F2 bails and also time to time killing also TD bails so it looks that low angles and EC-style would require some kryptonite for bails to survive.

[b0ardski]

Hey Nate, curious if the Nitros were stepin, and do you still have whats left for parts?
PM me, your email isn't enabled.
back to our regularly scheduled program

[Jack Michaud]

My EC friends are constantly breaking F2 bails and also time to time killing also TD bails so it looks that low angles and EC-style would require some kryptonite for bails to survive.

EC guys size their bindings too loose, to allow for a lot of boot roll in the binding. This creates a lot of excess torque on the bails. I've suggested maybe a braided ss cable would do better in that application.

[pokkis]

Funny thing, i proposed same thing some time ago :rolleyes:
But i know several EC style riders who keep thei bails on normal tightness, not like Jaques&Co, and they break them too

[steamboatrailer]

I've broke several heel bails on td 1s @td 2s.As your boot moves in the binding,you create friction.Sand from the parking lot in the heel lip,after time it makes a stress riser.Inspect your bindings often.I went FIN-TEC have had no probs.But I will replace my toe bails,as they have two seasons on them.Nothing is ment to last forever,Fin is getting real close though.Bring on that td race I got money to spend.:D

[jonbass]

Taking a shot in the dark here,
but Im guessing racers replace their bindings far more often then us mere mortals :) hence the low risk of breakage.

I bought my first TD2s two years ago and hope to put another 3 on them. Id go bankrupt if I had to buy a few pairs of bindings every season, but for racers it might be a fact of life, and no matter how you cut it, F2s are way way cheaper than bombers.

I think you are right. High level racers probably replace bindings and parts fairly often compared to some recreational riders. There is also probably a fair bit of maintenance going on too which could prolong the time between failures.

[RCrobar]

Hi Jack


EC guys size their bindings too loose, to allow for a lot of boot roll in the binding. This creates a lot of excess torque on the bails

I have read a few of your posts that have discussed EC and loose bails. With all due respect, the information you are providing in these posts is not correct. I base this claim only on my personal experience.

A few seasons ago I to rode my bails very loose, I do not set them this way anymore. Now I clamp the bails down tightly. I found that it made no difference in breakage whether my bails were loose or tight on my bindings.

Loose or tight bindings, I still move my boots and lower body as required in the rotation technique regardless of the bail tension. I am big enough that all I need to do was push my boots harder to get the same movement when the bindings were tight. It feels more restrictive, but you can move. As a result the bails eventually bend and break regardless of the bail tension.

For me reading about all EC guys riding loose bindings is like you reading about asymmetrical boards.:ices_ange

Cheers
Rob

[Dave ESPI]

Ive broken Burtons, Sno-Pros, Snopro RACE, and F-2 bindings. I have never broken a Bomber TD2, but I can definatley say I've had my rear toe bail open up on me when I was riding as Even though I have it rolled all the way out to accomodate my boot, I do get a good bit of flex, and it can cause the hind foot to twist in the binding. "PING!" is a sound you do NOT want to hear while carving a hard heelside as you will see your back leg at about chest level in a split second later and down you go if you are not prepared for said event happening. Having some movement is OK, but slop is bad. This sort of motion wears out the edges on bail ledges in the toe and heel of your boots also. Lateral movement in low angles (30to 50 degrees) in wider applications in hardboots put a lot of torsional pressure on the bail hinge points and this is a lot of stress rather than merely "pressure" that would be distributed over the toe ramp or center plate in a more straight alignment in higher angles as the bindings face forward more. This is not the case with softboot bindings as there is a different set of mechancis involved and allow that movement in the lower leg and ankles to compensate.

I'm interested to try the new sidewinders. I had hoped the TD2 would have came with a new top plate that had the center removed so we could access the base, but I guess that would still be a TD3 then for all intent and purposes.:biggthump I like the F2s but they are a tad "dainty" feeling. I perfer the robust strength and feel of the TD2s.

[bobdea]

Ive broken Burtons, Sno-Pros, Snopro RACE, and F-2 bindings. I have never broken a Bomber TD2, but I can definatley say I've had my rear toe bail open up on me when I was riding as Even though I have it rolled all the way out to accomodate my boot, I do get a good bit of flex, and it can cause the hind foot to twist in the binding. "PING!" is a sound you do NOT want to hear while carving a hard heelside as you will see your back leg at about chest level in a split second later and down you go if you are not prepared for said event happening. Having some movement is OK, but slop is bad. This sort of motion wears out the edges on bail ledges in the toe and heel of your boots also. Lateral movement in low angles (30to 50 degrees) in wider applications in hardboots put a lot of torsional pressure on the bail hinge points and this is a lot of stress rather than merely "pressure" that would be distributed over the toe ramp or center plate in a more straight alignment in higher angles as the bindings face forward more. This is not the case with softboot bindings as there is a different set of mechancis involved and allow that movement in the lower leg and ankles to compensate.

I'm interested to try the new sidewinders. I had hoped the TD2 would have came with a new top plate that had the center removed so we could access the base, but I guess that would still be a TD3 then for all intent and purposes.:biggthump I like the F2s but they are a tad "dainty" feeling. I perfer the robust strength and feel of the TD2s.

the above is proof that you've misadjusted your binding since by your own account you've only been riding alpine part time for four years I guess we can't hold it against you but you should not be giving advice either.

and F2s are not THAT dainty

[NateW]

Where's the proof of misadjustment? I don't see it.

[Bordy]

Do bindings break: Yes all bindings break some times including metal bindings, lots of times bail breakage is caused by miss adjustment that places stress on the bails and sole plate.


I think Bob is being a wiseass and refering to this, as well as Jacks ECer riding lose binding coment.

Not sure why though, Correct me if I am wroung here Bob?

Funny how this post speculates about what racers do, there are of course some amazing resourses here in the form of real racers, retired racers, coaches, people currently particapating in the highest levels of the sport, n what not.

why not just ask what they do one of us will answer...

On average most folks I know break bindings, boots, boards and now plate systems regularly.

I think Nate is a good base line for the recrational carver, he broke a binding and doesn't want to do it again so he buys what he thinks is the best binding out there for him based on his own ideas of durability. Perhaps thats his only requirement, that the binding is durable and will last for years and years.

I am just quessing here mind you.

Other riders at may perfer board feel over durability, or flex, or just plain personal taste due to aplication.

There are a ton of soft boot bindings made, they all work differntly, Burton has been doing battle with base plates that break for a decade, yet more people use there binding then any other? Its the same thing with plate bindings.......

But Here on the BOMBER forum it is only normal for the TD line to get pimped, When the Catek forum was up and running Quess what binding id the "BEST" according to thoose guys.

I think Phokiaa is a good example of a metal binding failing, The binding is all metal and was seen as stronger by lots of racers, but the board feel was only so good. Then once they started breaking under riders feet then the got replaced by other bindings under racers feet that were not metal and lasted as long if not longer.


As for the poster who makes the "racer buy new bindings every year" post.

The truth is racers buy new bindings when the need to, if a pair last for years then we will keep rocking them with inspections and upkeep. When the break they go into the parts bin.... Its just that simple. Boards get purchased each year, boots n binders and plate systems get reused until the are out dated or unrepairable...

Again just what I know......

[pokkis]

Bordy: you wrote:


The truth is racers buy new bindings when the need to, if a pair last for years then we will keep rocking them with inspections and upkeep.


Should i read that that they inspect their bindings regularly, as i expect.
If so that might be difference between "them" and us sunday carvers, related bindings.
Atlest i remeber days when i was riding with Burton bails, i inspected them with magnifier and saw starting breakage before they reall broke, and changed bails. That saved me lots of troubles for me on mid ninteens :rolleyes:

[bobdea]

I was sort of being a wise ass but was being specific about Dave. he claimed to of broken a huge amount of bindings for a guy who has only been riding a short time(four years) and even then admittedly only part time as he usually rides soft.
I'd say that smoking a pair of bindings every year for a weekend warrior is exessive. In other threads he's talked about getting ejected from bindings frequently as well. add it all together and it sounds like someone has bindings that are not adjusted properly.
seriously, you've been to the SES and ECES, you know what I'm talking about. there are some people that don't have their gear even close to set up right. I'm not talking perfected stance I am talking super basic stuff that boils down to safety.

when someone breaks four different brands of bindings in a few years who does not get a lot of hill time that says there's probably something wrong that the rider is doing.

[pokkis]

I've seen regular sunday carvers breaking lots of gear mainly bails, including my wife, and i must say that this was not due too loose binding setups.
Most of time major common thing has been very small binding angles. Suprisingly same very low angles as racers use :eek:. She has not had any accidents due i carefully inspect bails regularly with magnifier and replace them when is see any signs of damage. But my friends constantly carry spare parts and replace bails quite often after breakage during season.

[Bordy]

Bordy: you wrote:


Should i read that that they inspect their bindings regularly, as i expect.
If so that might be difference between "them" and us sunday carvers, related bindings.
Atlest i remeber days when i was riding with Burton bails, i inspected them with magnifier and saw starting breakage before they reall broke, and changed bails. That saved me lots of troubles for me on mid ninteens :rolleyes:

Pokkis, Each rider really deals with their own gear differntly. But as you have discovered, you can see and fix problems before they get worse. Thats the goal when inspecting gear. I do it daily but still break gear.

I have watched riders at events change bails and break the same bail again after just one run, so its almost a craps shoot..But then I she some of the biggest dudes ever from the Russian team riding Burtons that they have had for years.....

One year I watched Pat Farell from the Canadain Team Break a bail one run, then break a bail on the other binding the next run, then snap his board during his third, so that just proved to me anything can happen, He only weighs around 160lbs.

[pokkis]

Yes i see your point.
And i think one should never (on top level) change to bail not test ridden for real case. That way one can make sure that you have tested it has no basic issues and it has "settled down/formed" to shape that it does not change shape during your race run. Partly same way as F1 racers run tires in before using them in real fight.
Thanks Bordy, once again for your comment.

[Bordy]

I was sort of being a wise ass but was being specific about Dave. he claimed to of broken a huge amount of bindings for a guy who has only been riding a short time(four years) and even then admittedly only part time as he usually rides soft.
I'd say that smoking a pair of bindings every year for a weekend warrior is exessive. In other threads he's talked about getting ejected from bindings frequently as well. add it all together and it sounds like someone has bindings that are not adjusted properly.
seriously, you've been to the SES and ECES, you know what I'm talking about. there are some people that don't have their gear even close to set up right. I'm not talking perfected stance I am talking super basic stuff that boils down to safety.

when someone breaks four different brands of bindings in a few years who does not get a lot of hill time that says there's probably something wrong that the rider is doing.

I agree,

Some times I see people placing string and "extensions" of some sort on their toe clips, so they can close their binding, this almost always means they have their shiiit way to tight(some girls need the help though) I watch boots bend under the weight, Of course some times they are just to lose and cuase shock loading and fracture.

I know I haven't seen it all, some one out there has their set up all funky and is loving it everyday... so as always to each their own.

But there is alot of validity in the fact that Riders on the world cup use a prodect, I just laugh my asssss off when some on on Bomber thinks they are riding harder then a WC athlete...And if this is the case they should have the talent to ride out of a broken or realesed binding.......

I ride park, n rails with bindings and they hold up, but if I knuckle some thing or over shoot it and some thing breaks I am just ok with it..

I guess as a lifelong Pro you just accept that you break gear, thats what happens, in any sport.

I quess it would be alot like racing a car, **** is going to break.

But when you buy a car to drive to work with you think it should hold up, but it still breaks.....

[carvedog]

..But then I she some of the biggest dudes ever from the Russian team riding Burtons that they have had for years.....



That's me, but I don't ride hard. I am just an old fat bastard.

[carvedog]

I agree,

......I just laugh my asssss off when some on on Bomber thinks they are riding harder then a WC athlete...



True dat.
I used to think I was pretty bad ass and then I went to the qualifier at Park City and got my ass handed to me. Those guys rip.

[jburrill]

You guys are great. I feel like Ive been listening to a conversation at a ski bar full of hardbooters. I think, that my new Bombers are going to be a hoot on super hardpacked icy bulletproof groomed man made eastern snow. Which is what we always have here in Maine. If I go to a race, or ride plates in softer conditions, Ill probably use a binding with more flex. Period.
However, I have been developing my own binding. It incorperates the best of both worlds, or 3 worlds. Now, before I unveil my creation, I must say that this is only a prototype and undergoing an evolution. This probably should not be copied, used on snow or taken seriously by anyone. I will call this new prototype the...."Bombturdington". I have to do some finishing touches tonite, but will try to post photos by the end of the day tomorrow. "Bombturdington, its PH balanced".

[b0ardski]

I have images of my 1st frankenplate mods; Duret strap binder with cut out highback replaced by a cable. I miss the '80s:freak3:

[NateW]

I think Nate is a good base line for the recrational carver, he broke a binding and doesn't want to do it again so he buys what he thinks is the best binding out there for him based on his own ideas of durability. Perhaps thats his only requirement, that the binding is durable and will last for years and years.

I am just quessing here mind you.

Well, it was a very good guess. If your own "ideas of durability" lead you to believe that there's a more durable binding, please let me know what it is. I will give it serious consideration, because yeah, durability is my primary requirement.

Yes, breaking **** is part of the game. I don't mind breaking snowboards as long as I get a couple season out of them. I don't like it, but I'm accustomed to it, and I always bring a spare. But the thing about broken snowboard bindings is, they leave me in state where my knee is likely to break, and that is not acceptable. I don't have spares.

If I had not found bindings that I trust, I would have given up snowboarding. It's just a means to get air (carving passes the time between jumps), and snowboarding on unreliable gear is not worth the risk. Maybe I'd take up something safer instead, like hang gliding or sky diving.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

So you're an air addict on hard boots, eh?? Don't see too many of those any more. Crazy!

greg

[Bordy]

Well, it was a very good guess. If your own "ideas of durability" lead you to believe that there's a more durable binding, please let me know what it is. I will give it serious consideration, because yeah, durability is my primary requirement.

Yes, breaking **** is part of the game. I don't mind breaking snowboards as long as I get a couple season out of them. I don't like it, but I'm accustomed to it, and I always bring a spare. But the thing about broken snowboard bindings is, they leave me in state where my knee is likely to break, and that is not acceptable. I don't have spares.

If I had not found bindings that I trust, I would have given up snowboarding. It's just a means to get air (carving passes the time between jumps), and snowboarding on unreliable gear is not worth the risk. Maybe I'd take up something safer instead, like hang gliding or sky diving.

Nate,

You list that you broke a pair (one or both?) of Burton Variplates, what other bindings have you ridden and broken? I see this info....

I separated the top and bottom parts of an all-metal Nitro bindings, then ripped the screws out of the (metal) baseplate, then gave up on those. Bent the crap out of some Burton bails (similar scenario but smaller size - that one happened in moguls). Switched to Bombers and Cateks. Had similar issues when I was running bails (TD1, Catek WC), but never actually bent or broke the bails. Switched to intec and haven't had a problem since.

But I don't see any experance with New bindings from this decade? Plus when you ride intecs, you add more parts to the mix to fail, including the Fin tecs that had a recall issue at first? Oh yea and what do you weigh and how long and often do you ride.

and if these issues happened while jumping do you truley beleave you would rather have your leg fail and the binding hold up? Or the binding, boot or board break, and your body survies and you need to dump 250 into new bindings or 2500 to 25000 into doctor Bills? You say if the binding fails your knee is going to also but I have never seen a true injury from binding failure or realese, I have seen a lot of one footed tumbling and such I also watched a soft booter blow up there knee and binding but the inpact would have crushed them if their binding worked out.

Again just a reminder I am a pro so I have seen alot of binding failures. Not just one or two Or I read about them on BOL, I have probably watched 50+ realeses, including Bombers, Cateks and Phokkias Breaking.

I am just courious? From a coach, retailer, athlete, point of view??

As just a personal side note, when I ride Metal bindings and have a failure it is usally me ripping the binding off the board and destroying the inserst of the board, before the binding fails, Many other Pros have had the same experances. Not that its bad to have a binding that is bullet proof, I just like a differnt board feel.

[carvedog]

..... or 2500 into doctor Bills?


And that is just for the MRI and emergency visit.

[NateW]

But I don't see any experance with New bindings from this decade? Plus when you ride intecs, you add more parts to the mix to fail, including the Fin tecs that had a recall issue at first? Oh yea and what do you weigh and how long and often do you ride.

and if these issues happened while jumping do you truley beleave you would rather have your leg fail and the binding hold up? Or the binding, boot or board break, and your body survies and you need to dump 250 into new bindings or 2500 to 25000 into doctor Bills? You say if the binding fails your knee is going to also but I have never seen a true injury from binding failure or realese, I have seen a lot of one footed tumbling and such I also watched a soft booter blow up there knee and binding but the inpact would have crushed them if their binding worked out.

Again just a reminder I am a pro so I have seen alot of binding failures. Not just one or two Or I read about them on BOL, I have probably watched 50+ realeses, including Bombers, Cateks and Phokkias Breaking.

I am just courious? From a coach, retailer, athlete, point of view??

As just a personal side note, when I ride Metal bindings and have a failure it is usally me ripping the binding off the board and destroying the inserst of the board, before the binding fails, Many other Pros have had the same experances. Not that its bad to have a binding that is bullet proof, I just like a differnt board feel.

I switched to TDs about 10 years ago, TD SI's a year or so later, and haven't ridden much else since. Haven't seen a reason to, and haven't seen anything that looks stronger. I do have a pair of step-in Catek Olympics that I'm satisfied with, they're on a backup board. When I rode F2 Intecs I inspected them often and replaced them every year or two. I always knew they were the weakest link in the chain but they served me far better than bails did, there's just no comparison. Fintecs were a gamble, but I liked the odds so I took it, and I'm glad I did.

Like I said, if you know of something that you believe is stronger, I'd like to hear about it.

I'm 200lbs today, 6 feet tall, started riding in 1988 or so and switched to hard boots for the 1995/96 season (probably weighed 170 back then). I ride about 25 days a year. For me a "day" is at least 6 hours of riding, with a very short break in the middle to eat a sandwich, drink some water, and make yellow snow. (I don't count riding for a couple hours after work as a "day" - though it counts as fun, of course.)

I don't buy the theory that bindings are a mechanical fuse to blow before something else does. Those hard-landing releases were years ago, I've had a more since, and my legs are still intact. Tumbling with one boot in and one out still scares me a lot more than staying bolted in. Not that's it's a sure recipe for injury (obviously it's not, I'm still riding) but the risk is way too high IMO. Way, way worse than driving without a seatbelt. :) There's been at least one case of horrible injuries from one foot coming loose... it was well publicized on the forums due in part to the lawsuit that followed, I'm sure you must have stumbled on it.

I have yet to rip inserts out of a board, but I've delaminated several, mostly from bad landings. Board longevity was one of the reasons for going to stiffer boards recently. Not sure if it pays off but I'll know in a couple years.

[NateW]

So you're an air addict on hard boots, eh?? Don't see too many of those any more. Crazy!

greg

I get some funny looks. But like I said, carving is a great way to pass the time between jumps. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJJuvqmqsU0

[jburrill]

here.

[b0ardski]

Nice:biggthump

I was going to put my Nitro stepin heels on burton bases (bigger footprint) but never got around to customizing the holes. Did you have to mod the TD1 blocks?

[Jack Michaud]

here.

Clever, but what you've got there is just a TD1 with a larger footprint, i.e., dead spot.

[carvedog]

here.

FTW...?

[Bordy]

Clever, but what you've got there is just a TD1 with a larger footprint, i.e., dead spot.

I disagree, The base plate of burtons are pre bent to help eleminate the flatspot and flex a little with the board, also the burton bails are much softer and provide a bit of flex. I would just call it a stiffend burton with less chance of bail failure.

Jack Why you always hating on any binding that doesn't say Bomber, I like Bombers also but don't discount everything else? I could say what you have there is a TD1 thats not going to rip out your inserts and wreak your stick, IE lever on a fulcram..

What other bindings did you ride last year? Prove to me that you have first hand experance to be so bold online, this is a common topic between us.......

I still love ya but have to ask.:biggthump

[b0ardski]

Clever, but what you've got there is just a TD1 with a larger footprint, i.e., dead spot.

aren't TD1s suspended on a center disc requiring toe&heel bumpers due to too small of a footprint?

[jburrill]

I didnt take these out yesterday but I will on Saturday morning. I think I will like them. Phiokka shims on the back heel and front toe. Just a little canting. The toe and heel plates line up perfectly with Burton plates. Hmmm, did Fin do this a long time ago? I always thought that all Burtons needed were beefier bails...
Sunday River is kicking ass right now.

[Erik J]

and if these issues happened while jumping do you truley beleave you would rather have your leg fail and the binding hold up? Or the binding, boot or board break, and your body survies and you need to dump 250 into new bindings or 2500 to 25000 into doctor Bills? You say if the binding fails your knee is going to also but I have never seen a true injury from binding failure or realese, I have seen a lot of one footed tumbling and such I also watched a soft booter blow up there knee and binding but the inpact would have crushed them if their binding worked out.

Again just a reminder I am a pro so I have seen alot of binding failures. Not just one or two Or I read about them on BOL, I have probably watched 50+ realeses, including Bombers, Cateks and Phokkias Breaking.

I am just courious? From a coach, retailer, athlete, point of view??

As just a personal side note, when I ride Metal bindings and have a failure it is usally me ripping the binding off the board and destroying the inserst of the board, before the binding fails, Many other Pros have had the same experances. Not that its bad to have a binding that is bullet proof, I just like a differnt board feel.

Bordy, I'm curious about your binding release vs injury statement. In my mind a one footed tumble is the kiss of death. It's encouraging to read that you've never seen a major injury from a one footed release (whether pulling inserts, breaking bails etc.). I imagine pros have a much better "defense mechanism" built into their skills if and when this was to happen.

Out of curiousity, would you mind going through what might happen if a foot released from the board while riding? On rides up the lift I think of these "what if" situations and try to imagine what I would do. Or even just share what you see the board want to do if a foot is released.

[pokkis]

I would also like to hear instructions what to do when that happens. I have some ideas but like to hear some correct ones too.

[bobdea]

Bordy, I'm curious about your binding release vs injury statement. In my mind a one footed tumble is the kiss of death. It's encouraging to read that you've never seen a major injury from a one footed release (whether pulling inserts, breaking bails etc.). I imagine pros have a much better "defense mechanism" built into their skills if and when this was to happen.

Out of curiousity, would you mind going through what might happen if a foot released from the board while riding? On rides up the lift I think of these "what if" situations and try to imagine what I would do. Or even just share what you see the board want to do if a foot is released.



did skier get hurt every time they fell before there were releasable bindings? same thing.
yeah, no one advises to fall with 1 foot out but in most situations nothing happens even though it's high risk.

[pokkis]

With skies i dont issue is relevant due both bindings have indenpendt relase mechnism

[Erik J]

did skier get hurt every time they fell before there were releasable bindings? same thing.
yeah, no one advises to fall with 1 foot out but in most situations nothing happens even though it's high risk.

That reasoning makes sense, although skis would have less of a tendency to twist my lower leg off. I've released a couple of times myself.

I'm looking for a pro's perspective.

[bobdea]

With skies i dont issue is relevant due both bindings have indenpendt relase mechnism

right, this is what I was saying is 60 years ago that was not the case.

[Bordy]

Most of the times I have realesed for what ever reason, Binding failure, Boot Falure or board failure I have gone into a low side slide and gently applied pressure to the attached foot as well as placed my now free foot on the deck, and used the board to help slow down, I have had gear fail at super G speeds well over 50 mph and been just fine.

Ok I think it only fare to set some stuff straight, many alpine snowboards are just plane stupid, If you do ride as I am about to explain your a Moron, I really don't care if what I am saying offends you one bit, cuz if you get offended maybe you will think and change your riding style, If you do ride as such and you have ever ridden with me then you have heard this lecture, For many of the people I know that ride as such It has taken a injury or near death experance to open there eyes here it comes its super amazing info I am even going to yell it out....

IF YOU ARE TURNING ABOVE PEOPLE , OBJECTS OR NON MOVABLE ITEMS

YOUR A MORON, SMART RIDERS TURN BELOW STUFF.....

ok there it is. I love the "what if my binding breaks and I go into the woods" statement.. If you set your self up so thats were you are going to end up then its your fault, you will never see a pro make a arc six inches away from the tree line, even if "the snow is better there" your riding a alpine board it should hold on any surface.... It is way more likley that you will lose your edge and smack into something then something wil break and you lose your line..

That said I think its important that you as a alpine rider turn under stuff not above it, I hate going to SES and watching some folks apex right above stuff? My busness partner Dave used to be the bigest dumbasss doing just this, It took years of me heckling him and then a broken tib, fib and femur in seperate legs for him to change his habits.

Now with this in mind if your gear fails and you lose a foot, I think placeing the now realesed foot back on the board is your safest move, you don't want to allow independant leg movent. Where you place your foot is up to you, I have seen rider just slam there ankles together and keep their lower body together or place it back where it should be or between the bindings to re I know that some one is going to say,"but Billy what if I am tumbiling arse over tea kettle when my foot comes out". I have had it happen using a catek binding that I ripped the threads right off the screws and some out of the board, luckly the binding stayed on my foot and I just stomped it right back. the board ended up ruined and covered with "claw" marks from me using the screws to get some grip on the top sheet, but I even had a good enough platform to stop tumbling and even stand up n ride out before stopping.

Most of the time I have had a foot come free it has just lead into a low side slide and since I know not to turn where a blow out means impact you slide to a stop or have enough control edge to a stop again this part is your resposability, you know riding in control, it that code thingy and everything.

As a kid we all thought we would die if we lost a foot, after doing so you feel alot differant, I am not saying you wont get hurt that can happen with out a foot coming out in any fall, I broke my back(for the second time) at nationals when the nose broke on my kessler so thing can go bad..

I am saying that if you think your gear won't break your wrong, no matter who makes it just becuase one part is strong something else will give instead.

Of course as always this is just based on my opinions. I think we shall do a poll...

[Dave ESPI]

I completley agree with Boardy.

I get low and try to scrub off speed in a snowplow, or just keep my body prone, or on my back and slide with the board barely making contact with the ground untill I can use it as a bit of a slowing anchor/brake or shovel. If sliding down hill and the board is more downhill than you with only 1 foot in it tends to bite and then hook you around and I find this causes a twist to your body that your knee and leg really REALLY do not like, so I try to slide on my ass or other leg folded under myself to create a stable platform to lay down parallel to the board and attenpt to just keep my self low and controlled and yet also relaxed. Tense muscles cause a lot more damages than if you are just sliding along for the durration untill U an regain control. Hopefully everyone has a good grippy stomp pad, and when the back foot pops out, they can jam their boot right to that and it stays where its put and can assist in a "falling leaf" sort of slowing to the butt/back slide.

Not gracefull, but it works.

[NateW]

What other bindings did you ride last year? Prove to me that you have first hand experance to be so bold online, this is a common topic between us.......

So, for the third time, what other bindings do you think are more reliable than Trench Diggers?

Prove to me that you're not just stirring **** up for the fun of it. :)

[philw]

YOUR A MORON, SMART RIDERS TURN BELOW STUFF.....

Good advice, and I don't care how blunt you want to be about it.

In the same spirit I hope you won't mind me pointing out that if you're going to tell people they're stupid, it probably works better if your text actually makes sense. "Your" may sound a little like "you're" but is meaningless as you've used it.

The one exception to your rule is off piste, where in general you want to stop above your group, as you probably don't know what's below. In this case you just need to come in gently.

[Bordy]

So, for the third time, what other bindings do you think are more reliable than Trench Diggers?

Prove to me that you're not just stirring **** up for the fun of it. :)

Nate,

the point of my comments is to prove there are other factors in binding selection then only the reliablity of the binding, you have made it very clear, repeativly that you choose TD becuase you beleve they are the strongest safest binding out there, and that you primary concern is strength.

In this post and several post you always turn to this info and may comment several times in one thread that you ride TD cuz they are the strongest binding out there.

I am not sure how or why you consider anything in this thread "stiring sheet up for the fun of it" I understand you love your TDs I sell them at my shop and last year I was used as a smiling face in the Bomber adds, I have known Fin and Michelle since bomber started when Fin had a partner (not that theirs anything wroung with that;)) We stay at each others homes, we know each other very well, and are great friends. And often see your personal post pimping the TD as hard as you can, I am really stoked you love your TDs and what they do for you.

They just don't do it for me the same way, First Intecs and I do not get along, I have ripped the heel of my boots broken internals and pins as well as fractured the heel, plus the boot flexes in ways I just dont enjoy with them. Of course i don't mind if stuff break I know its going to all me stuff breaks, and it breaks often, Including the gear I choose to ride.

The TD line is much to stiff for me and the current gear I ride, at one point I traveled from event to event with only TDs in my bag so did lots of athletes, But as the bindings got stronger boards just did not keep up and soon I had lots of broken boards instead of broken binding pieces one year I broke 6 800 dollar custom race boards using td1, I have broken multiple boards using td2 also, including customs and lots of production prodect, is this the fault of the board or the binding? Fin and I have always thought boards and inserts need to be stronger no manufactor ever thought we would be straping millet aluminum binders on their gear they never saw it coming.

Now we have stronger inserts since real alpine manufactors know TDs may get screwed on their boards, this is becuase of Fins hard work and feed back. But Tds are still all metal but now suspended to allow for some flex, I think it is obvious from watching the evelotion of the binding that more flex and suspension was needed and Fin has been working hard through the generations to provide this very nessasry charictristic to the binding, all the way up to the Sidewinders. Now that Metal boards are mainstream this is more important then ever before. And again with this new board constrution their is again massive torgue created on the board from a all metal binding that requires still more suspension, and again there are board failures.

Now I am going to play Fins roll a litlle becuase he feels the boot should be the suspension system and has devoloped the BTS to create even more suspension into it, This is a great way to negate the non flexing traight of the TD and allow the rider to absorb but the board binding interface is still firm and many riders would like a different feel at this part of the system. But by making the boot do more work on a non flexing platform you are also placing the boot under more stress and this leads to boot issues also.

That said has Fin done a wonderful job of developing a very durable binding and boot system that everyone should try and decide if they like. I love riding TD with some setups, mostly really stiff board that need to be powered, and when I mean stiff boards I am not talking a Renn tiger compared to a Burton, I mean world cup rce boards that do not bend unless you are a stud and have game. I also like tds on super buffed cord that is grippy. I love the sidewinders also, but they are not a production binding. I am just not a TD only guy, and thats Ok. I still ride TDs sometimes.

So with all that said heres the answer I give you.

Are TD stronger then other bindings, yes.

In my experance however as I strengthen the binding part of the system I have a higher falure rate of the other parts IE boots and boards, so the bindings become more reliable but the entire system is not. I need a complete system.

This fact combined with the physical limits of movement for and aft, as well as the lack of suspension needed to ride at my full potential is why I often ride other binding, and reccomend others try to as well, I of course reccomend TDs to everyone also cuz it's my buddies company and he has been busting his ass in the alpine community as long as I have and I love him for it. I even go as far to say he makes the best metal binding out there hands down.

But just as I don't say Burton Bindings are the answer and thats what everyone should be ridding, I don't do the same with TD.

You also have never heard me say this board is the only one, or this boot is the only one... Just not fair to the person asking questions on the forum.

We have both seen the ....Madd is the best board attitude, or the Colier is the best board, and the members of the forum by it hook line and sinker. I am just not that guy.. All the members of the industry know me and where I am coming from.

Again just one guys opinion

[Bordy]

Good advice, and I don't care how blunt you want to be about it.

In the same spirit I hope you won't mind me pointing out that if you're going to tell people they're stupid, it probably works better if your text actually makes sense. "Your" may sound a little like "you're" but is meaningless as you've used it.

The one exception to your rule is off piste, where in general you want to stop above your group, as you probably don't know what's below. In this case you just need to come in gently.

It can't be that meaningless It just a typo Phil I make a binch of them? You got the point.

We are talking about powered turns on piste here,

and if you really want to nit pick about stoping you should never stop above anyone on or off piste this is instuctor level one stuff, if you fail to stop quess who your taking out? everyone below you....and off piste its a even bigger no no what if you cuase a fracture now you just cuased a slide that took out your buddys this has been the standard I have been taught as a mountaineer since day one and has been reinforced ever since. If you don't know whats below you and you choose to come in to hot then again... you are stupid and out of control. again not you persaonlly Phil but the rider who does so...

[Jack Michaud]

I disagree, The base plate of burtons are pre bent to help eleminate the flatspot and flex a little with the board, also the burton bails are much softer and provide a bit of flex. I would just call it a stiffend burton with less chance of bail failure.

Jack Why you always hating on any binding that doesn't say Bomber, I like Bombers also but don't discount everything else? I could say what you have there is a TD1 thats not going to rip out your inserts and wreak your stick, IE lever on a fulcram..

What other bindings did you ride last year? Prove to me that you have first hand experance to be so bold online, this is a common topic between us.......

I still love ya but have to ask.:biggthump

No hate man. Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber. I get the feeling sometimes that you attribute common vibes on this forum to me.

I just know that for freecarving I don't like flexible bindings. And I'm talking about the feel, not the safety. I like my board to do what I say, when I say. I know this because I did go back and try Burtons again after several years on Bombers. It was downright scary. I felt like I had rubber bands holding me to the board. Also, last time I tried the soft Bomber e-rings, I didn't like them either.

Bindings that are as flexible as Burtons, IMO, are like play in a steering column. That's not where I want my suspension.

If I were dealing with race ruts on a regular basis, maybe I'd feel differently. I know they are unlike anything we normally encounter while freecarving from the beer-league races I did a few years ago.

Unless they've changed since becoming Ibex, Burton Race Plates were most definitely flat out of the box.

[Jack Michaud]

I completley agree with Boardy.

Dave, why do you keep misspelling Bordy's name when it is right here in front of you, all over this forum? I see you do this a lot and I keep quiet about it, but enough is enough. Why do you do this? It's disrespectful.

[Bordy]

No hate man. Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber. I get the feeling sometimes that you attribute common vibes on this forum to me.

I just know that for freecarving I don't like flexible bindings. And I'm talking about the feel, not the safety. I like my board to do what I say, when I say. I know this because I did go back and try Burtons again after several years on Bombers. It was downright scary. I felt like I had rubber bands holding me to the board. Also, last time I tried the soft Bomber e-rings, I didn't like them either.

Flexible bindings, IMO, are like play in a steering column. That's not where I want my suspension.

If I were dealing with race ruts on a regular basis, maybe I'd feel differently. I know they are unlike anything we normally encounter while freecarving from the beer-league races I did a few years ago.

Unless they've changed since becoming Ibex, Burton Race Plates were most definitely flat out of the box.

Pre bent was a poor choice of words you are right they are flat, but the plate is suspended and flexes under foot with the board.

My statement about you ridding differnet stuff is the same as always. We discuss things on the forum from persaonl experance, often your statements are very direct, I know you are differnt in person, and if given the chance will try stuff then pass judgment, but online its very comon for you to make statements that are well a little onesided, in a conversation that has varibles. Be it Boards and what the are used for, and or boots and binders.

As I said I love the Bomber prodect, but its not for me all the time, I have tried lots of other gear and my opinion and post are based on that.

Often I read your post as bellitling toward the other gear mentioned, and I know you have not tried it. Have you ridden the highbrid binding pictured, I had not so I did not comment....) Its all great fun alpine gear and unless there is a true saftey issue it may work great for someone and should be addressed as such.

There was a time you pitched how unless you where racing why should you ride a race board, and that racer didn't free carve or finish there turns etc...now go look at yout Kessler...Are you a racer now? are you going to finish turns on it its really good at it! Now you want to do a comparasion about other boards which is awsome but you are part of the reason the board needs to be brought up to speed adter discounting the same ideas youare no promoting?! But there where lots of threads in the past where other riders myself include had already done said comparsions and shared the info and it was discounted by you then cuz we were racer or coaches not free riders.

The bindings pictured are one riders idea, and you discounted them also. If they where super unsafe then it would make sence to belittle them and share your info, But since you do have a document history of bashing burton bindings I threw up the post to show their is a flip side to the coin also, neither is right or wrong.

I always enjoy your post Jack, and have tryed very hard to let you be but some time I just don't agree, I am not saying I am correct and you are not, just that we are both totally differnt riders who have a differnt background and we post as such.

:biggthump

Its great you love your TD also but it doens't hurt to think others may not have your ridding style, or needs.... thats all I can recall having the same discussion about other bindings as far back as 03ish. You have a resposability to promote a prodect, so I always try to promote the sport.

Again not trying to create tension just letting you know what I am thinking while posting, out of respect for you..

[Dave ESPI]

Dave, why do you keep misspelling Bordy's name when it is right here in front of you, all over this forum? I see you do this a lot and I keep quiet about it, but enough is enough. Why do you do this? It's disrespectful.

I assumed it was a typo when Bordy originaly entered his screenname to register on BOL as a different way of spelling it and had ment it to say BOARDY.

J/K Just busting on Bill for his comment earlier in this thread about typos. :eplus2:

Actualy Jack, I honestly never noticed I was doing that until you just now pointed it out. Sorry, is "Bordy" Bills' real last name? no disrespect intended. Kind of ironic he is on a snowboard forum with the name of "Bordy" I guess.

I promise I will write "BORDY" ten times in the snow so I remember in the future :biggthump

[Jack Michaud]

Yes Dave, it is his last name, not that that matters.

[Dave ESPI]

No worries Jack, and again no diss intended, and it does matter as in said situation it could look as it did. Honest mistake.
A lot of people think Espi is my lastname, but it is not. People call me it. I don't mind. They spell it wrong all the time too as Espy or Espie.
Its a nick-name and also the name of my design company. I have a friend named Chris Kiledeer, he is on a fish and game forum, and people call him killdeer all the time as it doesn't register in their minds-eye as a different spelling either.

cheers,
D.

[corey_dyck]

You've got nothing, try having a last name like 'Dyck'. :eek: It's pronounced dick. Like dickhead.

[Jack Michaud]

It's all good Bordy, debating this stuff is fun. I try to keep my posts succinct and to the point. Sometimes I guess that makes them sound direct or terse or belittling maybe, that's not my intent. Again, you seem to attribute this BOL idea that freecarvers <i>shouldn't</i> ride the same gear as racers to me. That's just not accurate. I have said that there is gear that is good for freecarving that would never be found in a race course. And that just because some gear is bad for racing does not necessarily mean it is bad for freecarving. Big difference there.

I don't know if you've read my How to Buy an Alpine Snowboard article here, but in my description of the different kinds of boards out there I say:

<i>"Race boards are replicas of the boards used by professional racers, designed for ultimate speed and edge hold. But that doesn't mean you have to be a racer to use them. These are the boards you aspire to mastering as you realize your own carving potential."</i> (snip)

I have always stood by those words.

I try to speak from personal experience, but it is also perfectly acceptable to extrapolate and argue based on theory. I do have an education in this type of stuff (M.E.), it's not like I just pull it out of my butt.

I haven't ridden my Kessler yet, but if it's anything like the Coiler NSR I tried last year I'm sure it will be awesome for big speed, big turn freecarving. When one's freecarving goals intersect with that of racing, the equipment should be the same, I have always believed that. That's not always the case though. I don't ride softer bindings because dealing with ruts is not one of my freecarving goals. I also simply don't like them for carving. They don't work as well for my style. I ride shorter, radial (gasp!) boards when I want to make C-shaped carves down icy, narrow, make-the-turn-or-die steeps. I ride GS boards when I want to go big and fast and when conditions allow it. In my upcoming review, I want to find out how the latest and greatest GS race equipment performs for those goals. Want to loan me a Vist and a set of F2s? I also hope to include some video to give a point of reference to how I am using the boards.

Thank you again for hanging out here and giving us a window into the world of racing. Typos and all!
:1luvu:

[tahoetrencher]

Hey Dave, make sure it is your own handwriting this time...

;)

[buster]

is there some impersonating bordy?
i don't recognize his posts any more.

[MJB]

hmmm, wwrsd? what would Rob Stevens do? he would probably take the bindings off, then there is no risk of them breaking bails then.

ps, Rob, still have those Koflachs at my house. if you are heading in, drop me a line (# is on my facebook)

[Buell]

Show me one post where I've dismissed F2 or Phiokka or any racer's binding but Burton out of hand. I don't, because I've never ridden anything but Burton and Bomber.


Here are three that come pretty close. ;)

All specifically about F2s from this thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23818) about riding F2s on a new Coiler.




that's like putting all-seasons on a Ferrari. ;)


ah yes, for a student budget you're doing very well! Enjoy.


With all due respect, I want to ask how you are supposed to make precision moves and maintain balance with your foot wobbling side to side?

[tahoetrencher]

:lol:

:AR15firin:freak3:

:lurk:

[Bordy]

Here are three that come pretty close. ;)

All specifically about F2s from this thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23818) about riding F2s on a new Coiler.

Good thing I didn't see this post of I would have been all over Jack then also.

The "I havent ridden them but I think I woun't like them" post is the core of me responding the way I do some times to Jack.

Heck I even got a cameo in the thread. Go figure. Buell and Rebecca were very experamental and had cahonas to try metal boards the first year they were out. From what I have heard they both still enjoy the metal ride and it helped their ridding...

[Jack Michaud]

Close but no cigar, Buell.

[Bordy]

Billy:

Are you becoming a keyboard carver? Play more with that kid of yours wiil ya!:cool:

Now, do you have solid engineering or statistical data to back up the above question/answer? The YES part I do not understand. How do you define stronger or strength?

I will posit that every credible binding manufacturer have a load to failure data on their bindings. Given the reported failures, one would assume that most of these failures occur below the stipulated failure load. Did I say stipulated? yet no one has seen the numbers though. However, the strength of bindings is pontificated on this forum by a few anointed souls.:ices_ange

I think someone may need to lock this thread before pictures of broken bindings start showing up and riders start demanding failure load data.:smashfrea

Bola

http://www.allboardssports.com

Come on Bola some times you just gotta give the poster what they want.....

We both know this is what Nate wanted to hear, I bet he is the one, I like my TDs just they way they are vote on my poll, or it might be Jack... Jack was it you?

I think you are shaming F2s a bit in that thread... Don't make me post a poll, I have been alittle poll crazy you know...From now on I just leave it up to the people!!!!! Power to the poster!:lol:

[Buell]

Close but no cigar, Buell.

I am pretty sure that I remember, but can you remind us of what your first post originally said? It was softened quite a bit after a few of us defended the F2s and the fact that the OP was really excited about his new board and should not have someone slamming his binding choice.

[tenorman]

I am pretty sure that I remember, but can you remind us of what your first post originally said? It was softened quite a bit after a few of us defended the F2s and the fact that the OP was really excited about his new board and should not have someone slamming his binding choice.

hi BUELL

i agree with everything you have posted on this thread. all my friends tell me i have a good memory and i am also pretty sure that i can rewrite MR. MICHAUD’s original post WORD FOR WORD. normally, i like to mind my own business and don’t like to stir the pot UNLESS ABOLUTELY NECESSARY. however, you don’t need any help since you have clearly won this argument and i will remain silent unless someone disputes your recollection of the original post.

coincidentally (or not) the SOFTENED quote may or may not have been ordered by FIN DOYLE. it sounds like a reworking of MR. DOYLE’s old post about putting HIGH PERFORMANCE TIRES ON A MODEL T FORD on bomberonline about 10 years ago lol.

i better shut up before i sound like an old man with an axe to grind.

before anyone gets bent outa shape i am posting the above all in good fun in an attempt to lighten the mood of this post that is quickly turning south. however, if anyone thinks I am just sh*t disturbing then you have my permission to ask a moderator to delete my post.

in the words of a former bomberonline member: HAVE GOOD RUNS

[NateW]

In this post and several post you always turn to this info and may comment several times in one thread that you ride TD cuz they are the strongest binding out there.

I am not sure how or why you consider anything in this thread "stiring sheet up for the fun of it"

Perhaps I read too much into stuff like...


But I don't see any experance with New bindings from this decade?


what he thinks is the best binding out there for him based on his own ideas of durability


I think Phokiaa is a good example of a metal binding failing, The binding is all metal and was seen as stronger by lots of racers, but the board feel was only so good. Then once they started breaking under riders feet then the got replaced by other bindings under racers feet that were not metal and lasted as long if not longer.

So I got the impression that you knew of something stronger.
Being interested in strong bindings, I asked what...
I didn't get a response.
So I asked again, and threw in a jab to get your attention.
It worked. :)

No hard feelings. I see where you're coming from and I think we understand each other's positions pretty well.

[NateW]

We both know this is what Nate wanted to hear, I bet he is the one, I like my TDs just they way they are vote on my poll, or it might be Jack... Jack was it you?

Actually, what I wanted to hear was, "Yes, check out these right here: http://www.bombproofonline.com/CanyonExcavator4 - they're the current state of the art." :)

(And my vote was a write-in, just few minutes ago.)

[Jack Michaud]

Man! You guys have a pretty interesting sense of what is slamming and what is teasing! Buell, who are you my wife? Memory like an iron trap and all evidence no matter how old is admissible in any argument! :D I think those 3 statements are not out of bounds at all, and really, they were not meant to be mean. I was asking that question sincerely, because I don't even like the wobbliness of soft e-rings. But hey if Bordy wants to loan me a pair of F2s I'll try them! Peace!!

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

You've got nothing, try having a last name like 'Dyck'. :eek: It's pronounced dick. Like dickhead.

I think I called you worse while you were here :ices_ange
Accidently of course "Senior Moment" type thing.

Good thing you are so easy going!! Hope your return trip went well!


Mounted up the "Silvertanker" with F2 "S-Flex" TI / Intec bindings, cant' believe it is up to 59" at MHM.

[Snowman]

You guys must need SNOW!

Think Snow!

[Dave ESPI]

:eplus2:
You guys must need SNOW!

Think Snow!

Im thinking snow, but saddly my thoughts are of Colorado..... so you guys out there should be returning the favor, and think of us poor saps in the east with nothing to do cept buming around the mahogany ridge riding the brass rail in the bars @ the lodges, or worse driving around looking at the hills to get an idea where we should be "waiting"..... in the parking lots for some rideable precip to collect on the hill.

THINK EAST COAST SNOW ~ !

EDIT: obligitory FIRST POST (broken parts) hahaha

[Neil Gendzwill]

But hey if Bordy wants to loan me a pair of F2s I'll try them! Peace!!Well, I like mine. But then I haven't tried TDs.

I'd like to thank Billy for his very informative replies on this thread. To me his opinions carry a lot of weight because of the level he rides at and the variety of equipment he is able to put through the wringer.