What is a snowboard?

[WinterGold]

Some boards in the "New Board Porn Thread for 2010" kept me wondering how to define the term "snowboard". So I looked up some definitions. A lot of them just concentrate on the "one board gliding down a snowy surface" concept. But this would also include a monoski, which nobody of us would consider to be a snowboard. Even the "one" board is problematic, if you look at splitboards or special plate constructions (e.g. Tinkler).

Some definitions include the "stance like a surfer". This is interesting, because for me the angulated stance is one of the most important criteria for defining our sport and its technique. But here comes the problem: How much angulation (binding angles) is needed? When does a snowboard stance begin? A skwal is not a snowboard, right?

Should there be a certain minimum width in the definition?
For competition there is a rule (I hope it is still up to date ...):
Snowboards must have a minimum width as described:
- gliding surface up to 135 cm: 14cm minimum width
- more than 135 cm: 16cm minimum width
Is that a good starting point? Too narrow or too wide?

Which brings me back to my starting question - What is a snowboard (for you)?

[b0ardski]

a snowboard was a bent piece of plywood with rubber staps & aluminum fins
a snowboard is a monoski mounted with a surfer stance
140 wide powder skis are snowboards for each foot
a sub 140 snowboards are skwals
a skwal is a monoski (single ski) mounted with a waterski stance

I met a guy in '85 rippin' a steep bump run on a single alpine ski with a normal alpine boot on the front foot & a sorel that fit a socket on the back foot, was it a skwal or a monoski?:confused:

young snowboarders have this morbid irrational fear of being considered a "skier", I could never understand this phenomena. It's all a form of skiing, it's all glisse, the rest is semantics.

1 board or 2 it's all skiing, even the jibbers who would rather die a horrible death than be considered a skier when driving to a ski area to use a ski lift to slide down a ski slope to the ski lodge to have a beer surrounded by skiers:barf:

I ride a snowboard with a surf stance (not duck) using poles and am always told " your that monoski guy that spins all the time". I am often asked in the skilift line, "what is that" to which I reply a snowboard. this is very confusing to most people so I've decided to start calling it a skirfboard, I am now a skirfer that rides a ski lift to slide down a ski slope to the ski lodge to have a beer with my fellow skiers.


rant over

[WinterGold]

a snowboard was a bent piece of plywood with rubber staps & aluminum fins
a snowboard is a monoski mounted with a surfer stance
140 wide powder skis are snowboards for each foot
a sub 140 snowboards are skwals
a skwal is a monoski (single ski) mounted with a waterski stance

I met a guy in '85 rippin' a steep bump run on a single alpine ski with a normal alpine boot on the front foot & a sorel that fit a socket on the back foot, was it a skwal or a monoski?:confused:

young snowboarders have this morbid irrational fear of being considered a "skier", I could never understand this phenomena. It's all a form of skiing, it's all glisse, the rest is semantics.

I ride a snowboard with a surf stance (not duck) using poles and am always told " your that monoski guy that spins all the time". I am often asked in the skilift line, "what is that" to which I reply a snowboard. this is very confusing to most people so I've decided to start calling it a skirfboard, I am now a skirfer that rides a ski lift to slide down a ski slope to the ski lodge to have a beer with my fellow skiers.

1 board or 2 it's all skiing, even the jibbers who would rather die a horrible death than be considered a skier when driving to a ski area to use a ski lift to slide down a ski slope to the ski lodge to have a beer surrounded by skiers:barf:
rant over

a bent piece of plywood - ok, that´s evolution
a monoski with a surf stance - for me the important part of a monoski is that the feet are side by side, otherwise it is not monoskiing
powder skis - so skiing and snowboarding are the same sport? I don´t think many people would agree
sub 140 snowboards are skwals - that is interesting, is that the definition of a skwal?
snowboard with poles - ??? Really? Why?
just semantics - right, but you do know how important language is for humans
I am not afraid of being called a skier (and I am not that young either :)), but it is simply not correct.

[b0ardski]

let's see, my usual response is why not, why do you(skier) use poles? when more info is requested, the long answer is I used to go backcountry with ski buddies and on the flat trail out would borrow their poles so I didn't have to step out & hobble.
Soon enough my buddy said phok you get your own poles. I found that since I had the poles with me I may as well use them.
The advantages far outwiegh the detriments.
PROS;
hiking aids
push across flats
passing slower traffic on cattracks
branch whacking in the trees
upper body stability in the bumps
aids spins & tricks in bumps & deepsnow
easier to get up after a fall, especially in deep snow
stepin binding release w/out bending over(irrelevant to 99.999% of hardbooters)
balance while stepping in, waiting for freinds
resting in line & on the steeps
blocks tailriders in the lift line
a place to park gloves while pissing or partaking in the trees
threading thru the wetbutts at the top of the lift
slope gage, ie curb feelers

cons;
inhibits armpit dragging
have to learn not to run over them
baggy pants teenagers make fun of you


I can ski without poles too but I like my crutches/security blanket.
Randy Price and other AASI demo team guys have tried to talk me out of it but no one can give me a good reason.

Your right side by side stance is skiing, toe to heel stance is skwalling, both feet at forward angle is alpine and duck foot makes my knees hurt.

[carvedog]

PROS;
hiking aids
push across flats
passing slower traffic on cattracks
branch whacking in the trees
upper body stability in the bumps
aids spins & tricks in bumps & deepsnow
easier to get up after a fall, especially in deep snow
stepin binding release w/out bending over(irrelevant to 99.999% of hardbooters)
balance while stepping in, waiting for freinds
resting in line & on the steeps
blocks tailriders in the lift line
a place to park gloves while pissing or partaking in the trees
threading thru the wetbutts at the top of the lift
slope gage, ie curb feelers

cons;
inhibits armpit dragging
have to learn not to run over them
baggy pants teenagers make fun of you


I can ski without poles too but I like my crutches/security blanket.
Randy Price and other AASI demo team guys have tried to talk me out of it but no one can give me a good reason.

Your right side by side stance is skiing, toe to heel stance is skwalling, both feet at forward angle is alpine and duck foot makes my knees hurt.


I see how you are now. :eplus2:

Much as an event cannot be observed without changing the event. Something cannot be defined without changing it as well.

I need no definition to do what I do.

[Danked]

If i saw a snowboarder with poles i'd push em over...

[b0ardski]

"Much as an event cannot be observed without changing the event. Something cannot be defined without changing it as well."

Yes the tree made a sound, If no human or animals or insects or other trees were around the tree that fell felt the vibrations:biggthump

[b0ardski]

If i saw a snowboarder with poles i'd push em over...
don't push people carrying weapons:nono:


pro
bonking unruly snowboarders

[WinterGold]

@b0ardski - I remember several years ago, we had to do some technique exercises with a pole in our hands. I hated the loss of freedom ... but I see that you found a lot of advantages for yourself. So if it works for you, that´s great :biggthump.

@carvedog - very philosophical ;).
"I need no definition to do what I do" - Of course not and that´s fine, but that´s not really the point.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I met a guy in '85 rippin' a steep bump run on a single alpine ski with a normal alpine boot on the front foot & a sorel that fit a socket on the back foot, was it a skwal or a monoski?

"Voo-Doo" Snow Snake.

No, really.

Rocker anyone?

What I believe to be the great grandfather of the skwal.

[b0ardski]

Bryan the historian, way cool.

If I bought a pair of pontoons I'd have 2 powder skwals:cool:

[Erik J]

I used to like using poles while boarding. It was great on the steep and deep. I found them really handy as feelers, etc.

Once I got back to the groom I kept running them over. I did not like them at all on firm snow - especially the time that I punched myself in the face by riding into my pole planted fist. Try explaining that bloody nose to your riding buddies.

The poles were just another tool to use as needed.

I'm with carvedog on the "what is a snowboard" question

[b0ardski]

"Once I got back to the groom I kept running them over. I did not like them at all on firm snow - especially the time that I punched myself in the face by riding into my pole planted fist."

been there done that to the ribs. another one for the con list but that fits under learning not to run over them.

con
pole punch:eek:

[corey_dyck]

side by side stance is skiing, toe to heel stance is skwalling, both feet at forward angle is alpine
This is a pretty good definition. I would add that a skwal has the feet close together, a snowboard has some separation. The average gangsta kid doesn't consider what we do to be snowboarding because it's not in TransWorld magazine.

LOL at the ski pole antics! They definitely would be handy while stopped or moving slowly. Not my cup of tea but I can definitely understand the reasoning.

While we're at it for random questions: When you ride a skwal, do you take a foot out on the lift? I tried riding a chair with both feet in on an alpine board - I won't make that mistake again! Lots of pressure/torque for the whole ride. I couldn't quite reach the toe buckle to release (no safety bar on the chair).

[b0ardski]

Still a lot of weird pressure on the knees with a skwal on the lift, take the back foot out for sure.
another Q
do any skwallers here use poles?

It feels awkward to me without them, but I'm a better carver now than the last time I tried.

[carvedog]

This is interesting, because for me the angulated stance is one of the most important criteria for defining our sport and its technique.


When you say "our sport" that somehow includes me in this crazy thing we do. That also made me think of these vids. The first one - because that to me defines more than anything about the board.

The second because it makes me smile.

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[WinterGold]

@carvedog - you are 100% spot on. I have these videos on VHS from back in the days and I have seen them so many times. That´s what it´s all about - really great!!!
And some of the best carving, even compared to today´s standard for me.
Their boards were around 22cm wide and their stances:
Jean Nerva 51° 43° 45cm
Peter Bauer 48° 43° 43cm
(A bit narrow, but very nice!)
So definitely "snowboards" :ices_ange

[inkaholic]

another Q
do any skwallers here use poles?

It feels awkward to me without them, but I'm a better carver now than the last time I tried.

Monodude. He has a bunch of years skiing and monoskiing and he can't seem to drop the crutches...I mean poles, now that he is also ripping on skwallies.

Ink

[BlueB]

Poles
Pretty much dropped them for skiing... They get in my way when carving low or teaching begginers. I would still use them for bumps and pow, but I'm always on snowboard in those conditions. I'm sure I would use them if I ski-raced again...

Snowboarding/Skiing
Same sport in my book:
Same slopes used;
Same objective - sliding on the snow, turning, using terrain features, being one with the nature;
Same techniques used - edging, skidding, weighing/unweighing, longitudinal balance...;
Same boots used... oh wait, this is an unpopullar oppinion, on BOL and in mainstream ;)

Definition of Snowboard:
Single, non-motorized, snow sliding apparatus, to which both feet are attached at an angle other then parallel or near-parallel to longitudinal axis.

[b0ardski]

Monodude's a brother of another mother, invited me to monopalooza last season but I can't afford to leave N. Idaho much these days. We'll ride together someday.

BlueB's a BOAM too, "One boot to rule them all"

[monodude]

To me a snowboard is just a wide ski that you only need one of. I think many do it to be different, Huh ? I'm like you guys. I ride because I like to... not to be different.
I ride skis, mono, skwal, and now alpine snowboard. All using my poles & ski boots. There are too many advantages so I'll endure the ridicule. They've been in my hands for 40 years.

Don

Feed the addiction...:eplus2:

[b0ardski]

Shane McConkey interview from Mar. 08


You’re fanatic about monoskiing: a sport completely unknown in Russia. Tell us what is monoskiing itself? And what are its advantages and disadvantages if compared with snowboarding, for example?

Monoskiing was mildly popular in the 1970s before snowboarding was invented. It’s basically a really fat ski. It looks like a snowboard but longer. You stand on it with your feet glued together. It works really well in powder. It’s like skiing in the way that you are facing forward and wearing ski boots and ski bindings and poles but like snowboarding because you are standing on one board. It is faster than
snowboarding, but not as versatile. It’s better than skiing for powder but that’s about it. The technique for riding the things is exactly the same as mogul skiing technique - plant your pole, drive both hands forward, wiggle your hips, get laughed at by everyone. If you can be comfortable with the fact that everyone out on the hill is laughing at you then monoskiing is actually pretty fun.


sorry for the threadjack
snowboard stance is WAY more practical, hoping to get a magic ski from Coda, snowboard one run ski the next, same board, same boots, same bindings, same stoke.

[ncermak]

it is defined in both the USASA and FIS rules...I can look up the citation if someone really needs it

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

it is defined in both the USASA and FIS rules...I can look up the citation if someone really needs it

Neither existed when I started snowboarding. :eek: Obviously they need to define everything. ;) It would be interesting to see what they come up with. :confused:

We still called it Snowboarding though :) A few years prior to my starting they called it all sorts of things. Sticking, skiboarding, snoboarding, snurfing, snow surfing, le-surf, etc.

[ncermak]

151.01 Snowboard
A snowboard is equipment, which permits gliding on all snow conditions. The bindings must be affixed in a sideways manner on the longitudinal axis of the board. The boots cannot overlap each other. The minimal width of boards up to 135 cm in gliding length shall be 14 cm, and for boards 135 cm or longer in gliding length the width shall be no less than 16 cm.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

151.01 Snowboard
A snowboard is equipment, which permits gliding on all snow conditions. The bindings must be affixed in a sideways manner on the longitudinal axis of the board. The boots cannot overlap each other. The minimal width of boards up to 135 cm in gliding length shall be 14 cm, and for boards 135 cm or longer in gliding length the width shall be no less than 16 cm.

Seems reasonable.

[eajracing]

Neither existed when I started snowboarding. :eek: Obviously they need to define everything. ;) It would be interesting to see what they come up with. :confused: .

amen.

how did a definition of snowboarding start involving ski poles anyhow?

never skied... dont see much use for them (other than the obvious use as a weapon as astutely pointed out by boardski... i may have 'borrowed' a pole to 'assist' someone out of their bindings...)

and.. carvedog nailed my take too -and although it smacks of Jack's cry of the terminal intermediates, who cares what the dictionary?governing bodies/etc says - worry more about riding. more. you'll be a better whatever it is you're defining for it.


as a parting shot - i do find it a bit funny letting a bunch of hardbooters define a sport we really only make up a small percentage of.

for the record, i've got nothing against poles/monoskis/etc.... as long as gravity's pulling and you're sliding - we're all brothers like the bee gees.

[b0ardski]

do they define what sub140 is? is it a skwal?

so this is not a snowboard unless I mount the bindings so the boots don't overlap
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2666/4069928911_5e3ef0de69.jpg

and this is not a snowboard because it's not a single board
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/3141518040_488d31fd05.jpg

Thank god the officials are there to keep me from looking silly:biggthump

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3141400200_71b614371d.jpg

is over 45* a sideways manner or is that longitudinal?

[carvingchef]

and this is neither a snowboard or a monoboard or a skwal because it's never been drilled so we don't know what it is yet

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv181/carvingchef/k2top.jpg

[Fastskiguy]

151.01 Snowboard
A snowboard is equipment, which permits gliding on all snow conditions. The bindings must be affixed in a sideways manner on the longitudinal axis of the board. The boots cannot overlap each other. The minimal width of boards up to 135 cm in gliding length shall be 14 cm, and for boards 135 cm or longer in gliding length the width shall be no less than 16 cm.

Yeah, I like this definition too. Or if you want to be a little more open about it then you could just say "a single board you use to glide down a slope" and forget the arbitrary width and stance definitions.

[Jim Callen]

You guys seriously need something better to do than debate the definiteion of a snowboard.

[b0ardski]

and this is neither a snowboard or a monoboard or a skwal because it's never been drilled so we don't know what it is yet

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv181/carvingchef/k2top.jpg

t-xcells can become anything:lol:
no snow in Idaho yet, can ya tell?

[Fastskiguy]

You guys seriously need something better to do than debate the definiteion of a snowboard.

hell yeah but it's early November so what else are we gonna do? ;)

[aactis]

Can all skwals be snowboards, but not all snowboards be skwals? Just like all squares are rectangles, but not necessarily vice versa? :)

[ncermak]

obviously, this depends on the definition...under the aforementioned and cited USASA rule, the skwal is too narrow to be a snowboard...as is the teleboard. Why does everyone forget the teleboard????

[b0ardski]

Free heel skwal seems like a faceplant waitin to happen :eek:
but I have some old tele gear that I've been tempted to mount on an old board to give it a try.
anyone here done it??

[b0ardski]

taken from teleboard website

The Teleboard works because it successfully combines the best aspects of both skiing and snowboarding. It has the grace and power of the best alpine snowboards, while offering the nimbleness and turning speed of skis.

BUT WHY?
The Teleboard corrects defects intrinsic in the design of snowboards. Rather than placing the weight of the rider on opposing sides of the waist of the board, making it difficult to arc, the Teleboarder's weight presses on the waist of the board. Rather than locking the heels down and restricting movement, the Teleboard's modern telemark bindings allow the rider's weight to move through a wide range, initiating turns with hard forward thrusts and extending the carves by pulling back along the axis of the board.
Despite the use of telemark gear, which in skiing increases the degree of difficulty and generally reduces stability on hard snow, using state-of-the-art telemark equipment on the Teleboard actually gives the rider more control and versatility than that offered by a snowboard. Rather than executing turns with slow toe-heel movements, the Teleboarder turns with a flick if the knees and hips. Instead of standing sideways, making use of poles impossible, the Teleboarder faces the fall line, and can use poles whenever they are desired or useful. Rather than the slow edge-to-edge action intrinsic to the wide snowboard, the Teleboard is longer and half the width, giving it more effective edge and allowing it to turn as fast as a pair of skis without sacrificing flotation. The bumps are no longer off limts.



Beware you guys are riding gear with intrinsic defects
I need to get one so I can use poles & go in the bumps:rolleyes:

[BlueB]

I still remember Gilmour railing himself into the trees and ending up with multiple fractures...

[ncermak]

true...Gilmour f'd himself up, but as I heard it, he was railiing on the thing, and flying...and could have happened just as easily on a board...

I own and love the thing...

[Fastskiguy]

true...Gilmour f'd himself up, but as I heard it, he was railiing on the thing, and flying...and could have happened just as easily on a board...

Probably working on the 360 degree carve video I'd imagine....

[carvedog]

Probably working on the 360 degree carve video I'd imagine....

Damn - now don't get me started.

:angryfire:angryfire:angryfire:angryfire:angryfire :angryfire:angryfire:angryfire

[b0ardski]

I'll bet nobody rides a teleboard switch:eek:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Teleboard_profile.jpg/599px-Teleboard_profile.jpg
the reason I ride a snowboard with less agressive alpine angles is the ease of riding switch, even in the bumps. I've attempted switch on teleskis and I'll bet this is even more difficult.