Freestyle in hard boots?

[quest4powder]

While I know the equipment is not specifically designed for freestyle tricks, does anyone here rock the park or pipe in hard boots?

<B>Grabs?</B> Anyone grabbing anything other than Tail/Tindy? (Rail grabs on carves are cool, but don't count).

<B>Spins?</B> FS/BS 3's? More?

<B>Rails?</B> Are Boardslides possible in hard boots?

<B> Inverts? </B> Never seen this (yet).

Please post images, if you got 'em.

Thanks!
________
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[knoch]

why?

[Slim]

<I>Why?</I>

How 'bout challenge and fun.

I'm nowhere near as skilled as some of the hardbooters I've seen who rip freestyle moves as well as arcs. It's inspiring to ride with 'em!

I can Five-O rails in hard boots, but wary of boardslides due to high stance angles (high 60s). Can throw occasional BS 3's, carve switch, and grab tail. I'm stoked to learn more.

Threw an invert one time, unintentionally, riding off a catwalk in Japan. Wound up hanging upside down in a tree. Downclimbed before the gal with the camera showed up.

I'd try one off a backcountry kicker in deep powder.

[NateW]

I don't quite rock the pipe yet but I can jazz it, with frontside and backside airs a few feet over the lip. No real tricks, just a couple of different grabs - mostly indy or method when backside, and tail or stale grabs when frontside.

Grabs: indy, method, tail/stale. I can't reach the nose very well. :)

Spins: I have frontside 180s very consistent over just about anything, landing switch. I can take off switch almost as well as landing switch, just not quite as big.

I am too chicken for the X-games-sized jumps, so I spend all of my time on the next tier below that - jumps around 8-10 feet tall with tables up to about 12-15 feet long. And I'm lousy at measuring stuff without a tape measure so that's a very rough estimate. The parks in my area mostly come in three sizes: small for little kids, medium for 90% of the people, and huge for the few with the fortitude to risk their lives. I ride the bigger jumps in the medium zone. I have no idea if that's typical for other mountain's terrain parks but I hope it gives you some idea.

I can do backside 360s fairly consistently over tabletops (and did a few under the lip of the pipe last season but I'm not sure if that counts yet). I did a switch 360 last season, but it was supposed to be switch-540-land-forward and I didn't make the last 180. It came out really smooth, but it was pure luck. Still haven't landed a 540. Will try to do some switch 3's on purpose next season.

I can do backside 180s over the smaller tabletops, but even then I'm not consistent at them.

Rails and inverts frighten me, I don't go there. I see no reason that inverts would be any harder with an alpine setup, but rails might be... but that's just speculation.

I had Coiler start with an all-mountain 169 and extend the noise a little bit and extended the tail a little bit more so now it's a 174 that goes backward with no worries. 13m radius. I have been thinking that the extended nose and tail probably don't matter in the terrain park so I might try a standard-profile all-mountain board soon. Boots = Raichle 324, bindings = TD-1 step-ins.

I used to ride soft boots, many years ago, but I'm not willing to give up the control I get with hard boots just so I can reach the nose when I get air. Plus I feel a lot more confident with a 13m radius than I did with a 10m radius. At the speeds required for big air, I'd much rather be carving than skidding. I'm surprised more softbooters aren't using larger sidecuts, I wonder if they know what they're missing.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW

I am too chicken for the X-games-sized jumps, so I spend all of my time on the next tier below that - jumps around 8-10 feet tall with tables up to about 12-15 feet long. And I'm lousy at measuring stuff without a tape measure so that's a very rough estimate. The parks in my area mostly come in three sizes: small for little kids, medium for 90% of the people, and huge for the few with the fortitude to risk their lives. I ride the bigger jumps in the medium zone. I have no idea if that's typical for other mountain's terrain parks but I hope it gives you some idea.

I used to ride soft boots, many years ago, but I'm not willing to give up the control I get with hard boots just so I can reach the nose when I get air. Plus I feel a lot more confident with a 13m radius than I did with a 10m radius. At the speeds required for big air, I'd much rather be carving than skidding. I'm surprised more softbooters aren't using larger sidecuts, I wonder if they know what they're missing.

For once, someone who underestimates the air that they get. :D I'm sure you are getting more air than you think NateW.

A small table usually like 12-15 feet, a regular table is usually like 20-30 feet (from lip to lip) and a larger kickers (with an actual ramp) tend to be 30-45 feet. Very large jumps can be 50-70 feet. Big Air events tend to have 40-60 feet gap with varying kickers sizes (some throw you up really high up into the air).

My opinion is that sidecut won't really matter much on big air since you are running pretty much flat for last, high speed half of the approach. Maybe you have something in mind that I have never thought of, how do you envision it being used? Like when would be a good time to carve?

Since we are talking about freestyle, it is really hard to bone or tweak a grab which is kind of important for "style points." Of course you could scoff at style... but there is a tiny bit to be said in looking nice while spinning through the area. Olympic freestyle aerials is very precise and impressive... but has more in common with with the technical excellence of gymnastics than the creative grace pf snowboard freestyle aerials (again just the way I see it).

[LeeW]

Would be nice had Damian Sanders regularly reads here.

[MozzMann]

Interesting Subject and question .

I actually use my Hardboots o my Burton Custom because I got funny ankles and I have found that I can get lots of speed and stability with the Hardies rather than more conventional snowboarding boots.

Sure raises some eyebrows when ya carve a 7 - 8 meter turn just about layin down .

Works for my riding all over the mountain , but I can't say I ever seen anyone rideing the pipe in hardies.

Mozz

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by LeeW
Would be nice had Damian Sanders regularly reads here.

remember his part in "Critical Condition"?

that was some STYLE. in hardboots, of course

[Scorpio]

I think I remember an article from a 1991 or 92 issue of Transworld Snowboarding which interviewed Damien Sanders and his use of hardboots in freestyle. Its probably somewhere in my mom's basement but the next time I head over there, I'll try and dig it out.

[jason_watkins]

quest: check out the hard attack movie thread. There's quite a few nice inverts in that. My favorite out of that movie is a backflip tailgrab... looks pretty cool and different at high stance angles.

[NateW]

On size: I'll take your word for it. I do tabletops, but not gaps (too scary), so maybe that puts me in the 30-foot-plus range. I'll have to ask around and see if I can find out how big the jumps are around here, it'd be nice to know just for the sake of communications.

On sidecut: there's three things I like about having a large radius in the park:

I'm usually flat on the base when going up the face of a jump, but for 360s I use the edge a little bit, pushing aginst it to get some spin. I have no idea how I would do that with a sidecut that wanted to turn twice as sharp... I'd probably have to skid, but I feel a lot safer having the edge carving rather than sliding, it's just one less variable to get wrong.

When riding between jumps, I can carve from place to place without losing much speed. That means there are a couple of lines that I can take, fast, that people on soft boots can't, and that includes one softbooter who is better than me in just about every way. I mean, he could follow me from jump A to jump B, but he'd lose so much speed in between them it woudn't be worth the trouble. There's places at my home hill with two sets of jumps and sometimes the most air can be had by landing, carving into a traverse and hitting something in the 'other' set.

And even for cases where soft boots and freeride boards can do it with sufficient speed, a larger sidecut does more confidence. It's more stable, and it gives me the confidence to push myself a little more. That's partly psychological, but psychology counts. :) Look at it this way - racers use large sidecuts because they provide more control at higher speeds. Freestyle people need high speeds to get big air, so why NOT use a sidecut that provides more control when lining up for a jump?

On tweaking airs: I agree, having flexy ankles makes it possible to do more grabs, and to strike better poses. I'm sure it looks better, and it probably adds a little bit to the fun, but I don't think it adds as much fun as riding faster and more confidently and getting more air. Not for me anyhow. There's lots of room for personal preferences here though. I have to admit that the most beautiful 360s I've seen were nose-grabs, and I wish I could do the same.

Funny thing is, they were done by Damian Sanders. His boots must have been flexier than mine... I can reach the nose, but I can't tweak out near as much as did.

On Damien Sanders: he's still my hero. I gotta find a copy of critical condition, that would be fun to watch.

[OCD]

As much as I enjoy looking at carvers riding close to the snow it would be cool to see a few pictures of riders in the air.
Any?

[LeeW]

Originally posted by D-Sub
remember his part in "Critical Condition"?

that was some STYLE. in hardboots, of course

Yep sure do. Some dude--forgot his name, last name's P-something, he was jibbin' some rock and landed on his head. -OUCH!- Not sure if this video's the one with Steve Graham who busted his femur riding steeps and hittin' a tree ?

[D-Sub]

Nick Perata

That was one of three major injuries in the flick.

Steve Graham broke his leg makin turns in the back country at big mountain

I think it might have been Noah Salasnek that hit the tree launching a rock...

but...Nick Perata...that was ****ing scary.

wonder what ever happened to that cat

[fishrising]

Critical Condition rocked, I just saw my tape the other day while cleaning out an old box of stuff...the best is the Nick Perate (I think it was him) interview while driving his car, after/during the footage of him hitting the rock pile...I still cringe just thinking of that scene...

"stiches, here (points to forehead(, stiches here (points to back of head), stiches here (points to top of head), broken teeth, etc..., then he pauses looks at the camera and says "memory loss..."(in "wasted stoner sounding" voice)"

Steve Graham's leg break on that tree looked like it hurt too...

If I have time, maybe I'll get some of those scenes onto my computer and post them out on the web for you all...

[Ghostrider]

Boardslides with an alpine board?!

I couldnt do that to my baby.

My base is sacred territory that is to be touched only by the snow.

[Coldrider]

My base is sacred territory that is to be touched only by the snow.

And AIR! Snow and Air!!!

I still ride beater boards over rails, stumps and blow-downs, and sometimes mud. In spring I skim every puddle I can find. Call me crazy, but it's kind of fun.

[Phil]

There does not seem to be much to worry about for your base on the rails. I have been riding rails for years without base damage. The only exception is on rails with sharp kinks. I usually try to avoid the sharp kinks. You have to worry more about your edges. You really should not be riding your edges on rails, but if you ride rails, you will eventually find that your edges inadvertently touch them and pay the price. Steel on steel wears fast. Look at someone's base who rides a lot of flat rails or rails with smooth arcs (roller coaster, rainbow, etc.) and you will find that it does minimal base wear. As far as edge wear, that is a different story and a good excuse to stick to 50-50's. I figure that as long as I boardslide at the same place on the board, I will only be wearing a small part of the edge away. There is still plenty of edge to work with for the carves. If you don't believe that, read the saying below.

[Ghostrider]

For freecarving, then sure base damage isnt too much of a deal and you can live with some damage as long as you eventually repair it. But for us racers with tackle boxes full of different waxes who spend hours brushing and rubbing with fibertex hunting down those microscopic burrs, it goes against our beliefs. Do microscopic burrs make a difference? Well...I've won a race by .01 sec before so I think I'll keep my Rockwell steel and sintered graphite off the rails.

[D-Sub]

well, you certainly wouldnt take your race quiver out and ride rails would you?

I used to slide trees on my PJ. all the jibbers thought it was hilarious (they were my friends, but still insisted on giving me ****) but...even sliding trees I never saw any damage really. minor scrapes, but...nothin big

I dunno...Id love to see some more all around freecarvers...imagine a dude ripping through the park, carving perfect turns between hits, etc...

too much separation sometimes

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW
for 360s I use the edge a little bit, pushing aginst it to get some spin. When you spin, you don't really use your "edge" to push against, you "weight" base near the edge to gain a little friction. Kind of like "scooting" you board forward to pick up speed. There is a tiny bit of skidding involved, but that's not where you are getting the "push" from. This base "weighting" is a subtle and somewhat unconscious thing that you do (happens more with the ollie).

I have no idea how I would do that with a sidecut that wanted to turn twice as sharp... I'd probably have to skid, but I feel a lot safer having the edge carving rather than sliding, it's just one less variable to get wrong.
Clearly all pro/advanced freestyle riders can spin with ~7.5m sidecut boards. As said above, I don't believe you are suppose to carve on a spin. Of course this is all "traditional" freestyle technique, which assumes that you are using a relatively short, flexible board with a deep sidecut (all compared to an all-mountain board like yours). So it might be different when riding with a 13m sidecut and you could get away with holding a tiny very very wide carve on a spin. I think that some of your experiences are adaptations due to trying to ride freestyle on an alpine setup (and bringing the alpine mentality to it).

You say skidding is one less variable to get wrong. I view "drifting" as one more minor skill that you can use. Obviously, if done improperly, drifting can cause you to crash, but carving improperly is no different. I borrowed the term "drifting" from car drifting because I want to invoke that sense of highly controlled, artistic grace to what I'm suggesting. There is also a nice correlation between where alpine riders and NASCAR and F1 racers who would shudder at the thought of intentional causing their wheels to slide out in the middle of the race (because it would be bad/dangerous for racing. Even if it might be fun just screwing around).

Obviously skidding has a negative connotation for most alpine enthusiasts because it is unwanted when carving turns, but it is a "skill" that can be useful in certain situations. It's harder to skid "nicely" on an alpine setup so hardbooters avoid it. Most hardbooters avoid freestyle on their boards as well for the similar reason... but you are bolder than most :D My point is that learning how to "drift" is fundamentally no different than carving... learning how to manipulate the board to make it do what you want it to do.

And even for cases where soft boots and freeride boards can do it with sufficient speed, a larger sidecut does more confidence. It's more stable, and it gives me the confidence to push myself a little more. That's partly psychological, but psychology counts. :) Yes, but I see this as a negative... that you have become "psychologically" dependent on the preceived benefit of a particular type of equipment... making you unnecessarily afraid of certain situation without it. It would be like owning a 250 hp, 4WD, Traction Control SUV as a one person highway commuter car * (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=585).

Look at it this way - racers use large sidecuts because they provide more control at higher speeds. Freestyle people need high speeds to get big air, so why NOT use a sidecut that provides more control when lining up for a jump?
Your argument is missing one big thing... racers use large sidecuts because they provide more control when turning at higher speeds. For the most part, a freestyle rider is going straight and flat towards a jump. So again the large sidecut is irrelevant (in my opinion).

On tweaking airs: ... I don't think it adds as much fun as riding faster and more confidently and getting more air. Not for me anyhow. There's lots of room for personal preferences here though. Heh, I have had the same opinion, which was probably a good indicator that I would become a hardbooter, but yes... it's really a personal preference, but turning the mirror on ourselves... maybe we prefer things that we are good at? I mean I have cleared "X-Games sized jumps (http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/hcsc/chickenman.jpg)" as you put it but can't do a decently boned indy grab.

[$trider]

Just wanted to say I started in softies and learned the pipe, jumps, rails etc. Now I ride hard boots even on my freestyle board and still ride the pipe, jumps and rails. In the pipe I actually find it easier to get more boost because I can hold my edge on the landing and through the tranny, flat, other tranny, and right up the other wall a lot easier. However, I have also noticed that there is a lot less room for error when landing because I don't have as much slop in my ankles to "take up" mistakes with. Rails don't seem any different, but I also ride with lower angles on my freestyle board. Basically my point is that you can ride any equipment as long as you get used to it and pratice until you're proficient with it. Sometimes I'll even take my GS board in the pipe when people tell me it can't be done or just for fun and it really boosts because of the extra camber and stiffness, but its also pretty easy to dig the nose in or catch the flat tail if I'm not being careful.

[NateW]

I know I'm carving into 360s because I leave arcs on the face of the jump. :) Maybe that means I'm doing it wrong, but the idea of getting spin from board that isn't on edge really does not sit well with me. I guess I should try it sometime, see if I can do backside 180s using that sort of takeoff, and try 360s later if the 180s work out OK.

> I think that some of your experiences
> are adaptations due to trying to ride
> freestyle on an alpine setup (and
> bringing the alpine mentality to it).

I'm sure that's true. I really have no problem with skidding, by the way, it's just not something I want to do in the last moment before getting airborne. Part of the problem is that I have nightmares of catching my heel edge at that point. Spinning from a carve, I know that's not going to happen. Spinning with the base flat, I'd worry.

> For the most part, a freestyle rider is
> going straight and flat towards a
> jump. So again the large sidecut is
> irrelevant (in my opinion).

It's relevant to the way I ride... Being able to turn without losing speed means having more options about which jumps I hit, and losing less speed in between jumps that aren't laid out in a straight line. And if the jumps are in a straight line, it gives me something fun to do in between them. :)

Like strider was saying, large sidecuts seem like an advantage in the pipe. Seems to me that it should allow us to carry more speed from one side of the pipe to the other, too. I wonder if the difference would let a pro get more airs per run, or at least get bigger airs.

Do you think there are any advantages to tight sidecuts?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW
I know I'm carving into 360s because I leave arcs on the face of the jump. :) Maybe that means I'm doing it wrong, but the idea of getting spin from board that isn't on edge really does not sit
well with me.

... Part of the problem is that I have nightmares of catching my heel edge at that point. Spinning from a carve, I know that's not going to happen. Spinning with the base flat, I'd worry.


Like you said, the majority of the people are afraid of catching their heel edge on backside spins and so overcompensate by digging their toe edge in, like driving on the shoulder of the road because you are afraid of oncoming traffic.

I was always taught to not to try and carve hard off the jump when trying spin because it's inefficient techique and doesn't look smooth. Anyways, it's all good if that's what you like (doesn't really matter what everyone else thinks). However, it obviously does tear up the approach of the jump, making it worse for everyone over time (as you observed yourself). No worries though... pretty much everyone messed up the jumps anyway.



Like strider was saying, large sidecuts seem like an advantage in the pipe. Seems to me that it should allow us to carry more speed from one side of the pipe to the other, too. I wonder if the difference would let a pro get more airs per run, or at least get bigger airs.

Do you think there are any advantages to tight sidecuts?

Tighter sidecut lets you do quick, tight adjustments to your line without needing to swing your weight into a deeper carve (because you need to have your weight over your board when you ride up the wall). Common sense seems to tell me that if what you say is true (~13m sidecuts are unquestionably better for halfpipe) someone would have already done it.

I'm not sure if you do this as well. I was taught to carve through the pipe wall (using the downhill edge on the wall, but the uphill edge relative to the mountain) which always seems like a great way to catch your edge to me, but I've found that it really keeps your speed up and boosts you off the next wall. If you are wondering where I learned all this stuff I keep repeating. I went to High Cascade Snowboard Camp High Cascade Snowboard Camp (http://www.highcascade.com) for a couple of year and was taught many things by James Jackson (http://www.digitalphotocontest.com/photodisplay.asp?photoid=103451).

This is just what I've been taught, what I "think" the pros do, and what seems to work for me. But there are many ways to name/do a backflip as they say (last I counted there were like 4 names for different subtle variation on backflip).

[$trider]

I'm not sure if you do this as well. I was taught to carve through the pipe wall (using the downhill edge on the wall, but the uphill edge relative to the mountain) which always seems like a great way to catch your edge to me, but I've found that it really keeps your speed up and boosts you off the next wall.

That is actually what I was talking about when I posted. I'm not sure the sidecut radius has anything to do with this. I just find it easier to set that edge when I'm wearing hardboots whether its on my freestyle board or gs board. The main reason I get more boost from my race board isn't due to the sidecut, its due to the stiffness and extra camber the board has. When you decamber the racce board and let it snap back it gives a much larger "boost" up the wall than my freestyle board does.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by $trider
I'm not sure if you do this as well. I was taught to carve through the pipe wall (using the downhill edge on the wall, but the uphill edge relative to the mountain) which always seems like a great way to catch your edge to me, but I've found that it really keeps your speed up and boosts you off the next wall.

That is actually what I was talking about when I posted. I'm not sure the sidecut radius has anything to do with this. I just find it easier to set that edge when I'm wearing hardboots whether its on my freestyle board or gs board. The main reason I get more boost from my race board isn't due to the sidecut, its due to the stiffness and extra camber the board has. When you decamber the racce board and let it snap back it gives a much larger "boost" up the wall than my freestyle board does. Yea, when I was talking to NateW I was mostly refering to the board and not the bindings/boots. I also believe in having a nice and stiff board in the pipe so it stores up a lot of energy in in the transition like you said. I haven't tried hardboots on my freestyle board, but I did replace my old Salomon Sp4 Shapes bindings with a pair of Catek Freerides (http://www.catek.com/freeride.htm) which should definitely be a step up in power and responsiveness. On the flipside I have a pair of Burton P1MD (http://www.seisports.com/html/burton_p1_md.2004.html) bindings, which are suppose to be supportive yes "flexy" as well according to the amusing description
The P1MD gives the high-performance riders more tweak and freedom than they’ve been previously offered in any high-end binding. The P1 MD offers a friendly medium flex in a sea of bindings that may be stiffer than you need. We'll see how they do in the pipe compared to each other.

[Coldrider]

My limited understanding of the laws of physics tells me that the board has to be anchored, somehow, to generate a spin.

You can not generate rotation without having something to push against. An astronaut in space, for example, would not be able to start spinning unless they could push off another object--nor could they stop spinning once they started.

On earth, the same principle applies. You can not gererate rotation in the air. You need a stable platform under your feet while generating torque, and rotation, by throwing the upper body.

You can perfom counter rotation movements in the air, contracting the muscles of the torso and scissoring the legs to effect a big movement of the board (counter rotation of upper and lower body; most folks are able to get at least 180 degrees of redirection of the board in the air, and use it to make 'late' spin or recovery moves) but the net rotation of your entire body is still zero.


I guess the question I have is:

Does the board need to be on edge to provide this 'anchor', or is the friction and incidental resistance of the side edges contacting the snow on a flat board, plus the friction of the base against the snow sufficient to anchor the board?

[$trider]

There is a great pic of a lot of counter Coldrider...looks like you're just surveying in that pica and not actually turning.

I tried to stay out of the spin discussion, but here's my .02. As Cold said, you do need to push off something to get the spin started. Countering and bringing it back isn't efficient enough to get a whole lot of spin and also sets you up for a bad landing. It may look like the pros are spinning withoput pushing their board against the snow, but they just time it perfectly so its barely noticeable. Also, you don't need a huge push to get it going and once you do, countering the top of your body will accomplish a lot of fast spins easily. Now, beacuse you only need something to push off of for a tiny amount of time, and it doesn't have to be with much force, ity shouldn't matter if you do it off and edge, or a flat board. I can spin either way and I find it depends on what kind of jump I'm on and how I'm riding into it. Both seem to work equally fine for me and it really boils down to which I', more comfortable with.....switch spins I like to set my edge, regular I ride mostly flat, frontsides I ride in flat, backsides I set more edge. After watching many people in the park I think it boils down to wheta fits each persons comfort zone. I know 2 riders who both go huge and both look awesome and comfortable doing it and each has a different style coming off the lip...one guy rides flat, and one guy is always on edge. I wouldn't say either of them is better than the other, just differnt approaches. I haven't watched the pros that closely, and often times the TV is at an angle where you can't see those things, so it would be interesting to see if they predominantly use one way versus the other.
:confused:

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Coldrider
I guess the question I have is:

Does the board need to be on edge to provide this 'anchor', or is the friction and incidental resistance of the side edges contacting the snow on a flat board, plus the friction of the base against the snow sufficient to anchor the board?

This what I've been saying (in the earlier posts) - I personally don't think the board needs to be on a carving edge to anchor you. If you just "pressure" or "weight" the board it still "stick" just enough to the snow for your to cork your shoulders (which is where you get you rotation, not by turning the board). The board doesn't really skid, or carve... it just kind "sticks" while you uncork your shoulders, then you unweight the board on takeoff once your shoulders are going and that's what carries you through the spin (keep looking into the turn and keeping those shoulders going, open them up once you spot your landing).

Everyone uses this effect when "scooting" their board forward at slow speeds. You weight your front foot heavily and swing your weight backward, because you weight is pressing down on the board, the board sticks a little (instead of sliding forward) then you swing your weight forward and unweight your foot, suddenly your board no longer sticks to the ground and is carried forward by your forward momentum.

Update: Strider, a little edge can happen as you said... I'm mainly disagreeing with NateW's contention that you should carve up the approach and carve into a spin. For me, carving sounds a lot more severe than a little edge. Maybe that's all Nate is referring to... a tiny bit of edge... but it just didn't sound like that to me (he mentioned he could see his own trench up the takeoff ramp). My thinking is as little edge as you can handle, and I thought NateW seems to imply a lot of edge.

[Coldrider]

...looks like you're just surveying in that pica and not actually turning
You're right. But that's mostly because I was shooting the photo.

Image is of a friend surveying North Pole Chute at A-Basin. Short hike. Steep chute. Good ride.

Here's another image from the same session, with actual turns.

[LeeW]

Originally posted by D-Sub
Nick Perata

That was one of three major injuries in the flick.

Steve Graham broke his leg makin turns in the back country at big mountain

I think it might have been Noah Salasnek that hit the tree launching a rock...

but...Nick Perata...that was ****ing scary.

wonder what ever happened to that cat

Came across a neat book by Sean Sullivan and there was photos of Nick Perata. I recommend that book by Sean Sullivan. Very artsy and appreciation-inspired.

[NateW]

Imagine the least possible amount of edge that would still leave a visible arc in the snow. :) It could honestly be smaller, and I was actually focusing on making it smaller toward the end of last season.... I don't mean to be giving the impression that I'm making trenches while I'm setting up my 360s.

I can sorta understand the idea of pushing off the base alone, because I don't think I use the edge at all for 180s... I should work on backside 180s for a while and try to turn them into 360s using the same technique.

> Common sense seems to tell me that
> if what you say is true (~13m sidecuts
> are unquestionably better for halfpipe)
> someone would have already done it.

Yeah, but common sense told me we should have had far deeper sidecuts on our skis 25 years ago when I was in 4th grade and read about what sidecuts are for. (I was out of high school when the Elan SCX came out, and I almost wet myelf when I first saw them.)

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if a few pros had freestyle boards built with GS-ish sidecuts, and tried then, and chose to stick with ~8m sidecuts. But I also wouldn't be surprised if none of them have. The idea is just far enough outside the box to be overlooked. And I'm continually surprised by the number of good riders who really don't understand sidecut. I don't know any pros though, maybe they all 'get it' but I wouldn't bet on that.

This is a fun thread, by the way. Thanks for getting this ball rolling, Quest4Powder. :)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW
Imagine the least possible amount of edge that would still leave a visible arc in the snow. :) It could honestly be smaller, and I was actually focusing on making it smaller toward the end of last season.... I don't mean to be giving the impression that I'm making trenches while I'm setting up my 360s.

I can sorta understand the idea of pushing off the base alone, because I don't think I use the edge at all for 180s... I should work on backside 180s for a while and try to turn them into 360s using the same technique.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if a few pros had freestyle boards built with GS-ish sidecuts, and tried then, and chose to stick with ~8m sidecuts. But I also wouldn't be surprised if none of them have. The idea is just far enough outside the box to be overlooked. And I'm continually surprised by the number of good riders who really don't understand sidecut. I don't know any pros though, maybe they all 'get it' but I wouldn't bet on that.

This is a fun thread, by the way. Thanks for getting this ball rolling, Quest4Powder. :)

Ok... yea, I was under the incorrect impression that you were making hard carves. So yea, we really have the same thing in mind. I agree that a light light carve might be nice, especially if you have a long sidecut to make it nice and stable.

[$trider]

Originally posted by Coldrider
You're right. But that's mostly because I was shooting the photo.

Image is of a friend surveying North Pole Chute at A-Basin. Short hike. Steep chute. Good ride.

Here's another image from the same session, with actual turns.

Thats a really nice set of pics...wish I had some more practice with my camera so I could get some nice shots like that!!!!

[quest4powder]

There was an article in the AASI magazine this past winter on this topic. It maintained that slight edging was necessary to pre-wind and throw larger spin moves, and detailed approach lines for regular and goofy riders.

It further maintained that a 'flat board' technique can result in the board skidding out underneath the rider on bigger spins, where the torque you tried to generate by throwing the upper body would result in a flat board breaking away--overcoming the small amount of friction and incidental edging holding it in place--and resulting in a loss of 'anchor' by which to throw a spin move.

The line that the author encourages to throw spins is a carved 'S' line on the feature. Most riders I see--even those who toss big spins--take a more straight ahead line, and I wonder if the amount of edging they use is correspondingly less.

I'm attaching a scanned image from the article, but apologize in advance for the image quality. I'm using a stone-age scanner.
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[northcoast]

I read that article. It really helped doing the "S". Before I would do just a slight carve to help the prewind. My spins are still a work in progress and have been limited due to an injured shoulder and a fear factor of increased injury but doing the S definitely helped. On a side note... NateW kicks @**. He is one of my favorite riders to watch. How often do you see someone digging trenches and throwing spins effortlessly in between?

Nate, I think the biggest kicker in the middle section at West is 30 ft with a 20 ft table. The big ones to the left are 30, 40, and 50'.
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[lonerider]

Originally posted by quest4powder
There was an article in the AASI magazine this past winter on this topic. It maintained that slight edging was necessary to pre-wind and throw larger spin moves, and detailed approach lines for regular and goofy riders.

It further maintained that a 'flat board' technique can result in the board skidding out underneath the rider on bigger spins, where the torque you tried to generate by throwing the upper body would result in a flat board breaking away--overcoming the small amount of friction and incidental edging holding it in place--and resulting in a loss of 'anchor' by which to throw a spin move.

The line that the author encourages to throw spins is a carved 'S' line on the feature. Most riders I see--even those who toss big spins--take a more straight ahead line, and I wonder if the amount of edging they use is correspondingly less.

I'm attaching a scanned image from the article, but apologize in advance for the image quality. I'm using a stone-age scanner.

Interesting... that all makes sense to me, my comments were really for 180s and 360s, and while I've definitely seen people do 540s with the flatboard technique, I could be convinced that a 'S' manuever works better (I'll have to try it this winter). In general, while I still personally edge a bit in my 360s, I try to make it as slight an edge as possible as the natural tendency is to dig it hard to carve it.

You don't happen to have the text of the article available, do you?

[boostertwo]

You don't happen to have the text of the article available, do you?

The article is titled "Line Up Your Approach to Spins in the Terrain Park", by Jeff Brier.

You can get a copy of the magazine by contacting <I>The Pro Rider</I> <A HREF="MAILTO:wschrupp@aasi.org">editorial staff</a>.

Hope this helps.

<img src="http://www.keyssonline.com/ncprojects/jpsoulcarves-combo.gif" alt="" border="0">

Cheers,
B-2

[NateW]

Thanks, Kevin!

The big ones they built on the far left last season frighten me... The lengths are not so bad, it's the huge kickers that worry me - coming up short on those would be death. I feel a lot safer on the middle and right sets.

The "S" approach fits what I've been doing for 360s. It's reassuring to hear I'm not the only one. :)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW
Thanks, Kevin!
The big ones they built on the far left last season frighten me... The lengths are not so bad, it's the huge kickers that worry me - coming up short on those would be death. I feel a lot safer on the middle and right sets

You should try kickers, they are a lot of fun. They should have really long landings, so just go really fast so not to land short... you have the 13m sidecut board... and you definitely have more than enough ability.

The thing I keep wussing out on is the transfer gap jump, where the have two 35 foot tabletops 15 feet apart from each other and you take of from one table and land on the other table. It's just something about the angled approach that scares me.

[northcoast]

Nate...the problems with the those is that they weren't built very well. (Actually all the parks weren't built very well hence the fact that I tended to overshoot just about everything and ended up breaking two boards last season...crappy Burtons not the new Doneks). I thought those jumps were big 'til we did a trip down to Hood the weekend before my surgery. The jumps they had on the Texas Trail were monstrous. One run through there and I was back down to the main park where all the rails and half pipe were.
________
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[NateW]

Yeah, I want a word or two with the people who design the parks up there.

Did you hear about the guy that died at Summit Central last year? It'll always be possible to kill yourself with big jumps but they could at least make it challenging to do so. That time it was a guy who overshot, next year it'll be someone who undershoots.

I dunno really, maybe that's just my old age speaking. :)

[northcoast]

Yeah I heard about that one. He was a skier who bombed straight from the top of Central Express with no shirt or helmet when things were starting to ice up in the late afternoon. Ruptured spleen I think. The thing that pissed me off most about the parks is that they brought in Frank Wells last year to design the parks and they were even worse than the year before when Gunny did them. They should send the park guys on a field trip to other mountains (Hood & Tahoe) to see how things are done.
________
Pornstars Cuban (http://www.****tube.com/categories/859/cuban/videos/1)

[Mike T]

Originally posted by northcoast
They should send the park guys on a field trip to other mountains (Hood & Tahoe) to see how things are done.


Mt Hood Meadows consistently screws up their entry-level parks. They build the smaller kickers so that an expert park rider charging full steam clears the table. They should build them so that a beginning park rider has a prayer of clearing the table. The tables are generally too long for the kicker size.

The other problem is the proximity. The small jumps are way, way too close together. When I actually do land on the tranny, I don't have time to get set for the next jump, I'm alrday on top of it.

Timberline on the other hand, has always impressed me by building all their jumps equally well.

[Slim]

Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.
He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Slim
Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.
He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

I was about to ask whether a ruptured spleen and other such chest injuries could be fatal so quickly. Yikes... well, only makes me feel slightly more justified in getting my torso tool (http://www.skeletools.com/torso.html) although I got it mainly to help avoid being banged up in minor spills... not really depending on my helmet, jacket, shorts, and knee pads to protect me from catastrophic collisions (best not to get into them in the first place).

[jason_watkins]

Originally posted by Mike T
Mt Hood Meadows consistently screws up their entry-level parks. They build the smaller kickers so that an expert park rider charging full steam clears the table. They should build them so that a beginning park rider has a prayer of clearing the table. The tables are generally too long for the kicker size.

I thought the tables under the HRM lift were ok this year. I could clear them, and I'm the biggest puss ever when it comes to tables. I agree tho, the beginner park at timberline season before last was exactly right for a newbie like me to get some comfort in the air without danger of death.


The jumps they had on the Texas Trail were monstrous.I'm in awe of people who can hit jumps that big and not kill themselves. I can't recall seeing a single person hit those any of the days I was up.


That time it was a guy who overshot, next year it'll be someone who undershoots.One of my buddies aparently overshot the medium tables on the mile at timberline this spring. I say aparently since he had a concussion and can't remember what happened. He was told by patrol he overshot. If it hadn't been for the helmet, who knows how bad of shape he'd be in.

Of course, I don't think that's going to stop him one bit from charging harder on those tables next season. :rolleyes:

[Mike T]

Originally posted by jason_watkins
I thought the tables under the HRM lift were ok this year. I could clear them, and I'm the biggest puss ever when it comes to tables. I agree tho, the beginner park at timberline season before last was exactly right for a newbie like me to get some comfort in the air without danger of death.




Right the small ones under HRM were OK. The ones under Easy Rider, though, had too long of a table for their kick and were too close together. I was able to hit the last of the three right if I skipped the first two....

[LeeW]

Originally posted by Slim
Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.
He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

Hmm, I feel for this guy. However, I need to point out in a snowboard park/halfpipe design class Ive taken with NSAA. Statistics show that the injury rate is higher in beginner's park than it is in the expert park.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by LeeW
Hmm, I feel for this guy. However, I need to point out in a snowboard park/halfpipe design class Ive taken with NSAA. Statistics show that the injury rate is higher in beginner's park than it is in the expert park.

Sure... lots of bruises and even fractured wrists and sprained joints... but the "catastrophic" injuries mentioned by the previous poster tends to only be on bigger jumps (even those are rather rare from what I know).

I agree with Slim... only do jumps that you have a reasonable chance at clearing. There are totally people who have no chance of clearing some jumps in the Kirkwood Superpark (small table is 35 ft). One person didn't even clear the back end of the 15x7 ft takeoff ramp. It's a really "good" way of getting yourself and others hurt.

Avoid poorly designed jumps - ones with not enough room to gain speed, bumpy lip, extra long gaps, short landing, etc... if they are causing you trouble. Fine a jump that's the right size and quality for you and session it to practice.

[Slim]

Originally posted by NateW

<B>Spins: I have frontside 180s very consistent over just about anything, landing switch. I can take off switch almost as well as landing switch, just not quite as big.
</B> Geezum, Switch jumps (and landings) on an alpine board is waaaay beyond me (I ride high stance angles as I have squatch feet). I am comfortable with switch carving, and throw near-ground 180s and half cabs, but haven't yet even considered taking it off a table in the park. That's awesome.

Is anyone throwing switch straight airs in the park--even off the beginner features? I'd be stoked to see that!

[NateW]

You mean go off switch, stay straight, and land switch? I never thought of that before, but I'm picturing it in my head and I'm pretty sure I could do it.

Doing that with an alpine stance should look hilarious... I will try a bunch this coming season, thanks for the idea. :)

My main issue with the parks at my 'home hill' is that they put so many big jumps on flat areas. People who overshoot, land on flat (FLAT) ground, and they're just plain fxxked. I've seen too many people hauled off in toboggans, and I just don't think it needs to be that way. The real responsibility lies with the riders taking the risks, but still. You'd think they'd at least worry about the bad press or something.

[Slim]

Add a grab and it'd be way too cool.

[Art]

A little ot but I have seen people in the field go down in a matter of minutes due to blunt chest trauma. the dreaded pneumothorax. Ruptures and paralysis are also a decent risk from that type of ipact. Most people I have seen are involved in MVA's or high falls. I'm not 100% but I think the guy at the pass died immediately on impact due to a broken neck since it sounds like they were doing cpr on him in a matter of a minutes. I admire you guys for the air and talent you have. Nate and northcoast, we need to get together for some turns this winter. It sound like I might learn a thing or 2. Be safe and remember that life without risk is merely existing.

[northcoast]

Originally posted by Mike T
Right the small ones under HRM were OK. The ones under Easy Rider, though, had too long of a table for their kick and were too close together. I was able to hit the last of the three right if I skipped the first two....

I hit the first one and occaisonally the 3rd...I liked being able to go around and gap the evil "C" rails then use the bottom of the pipe as a hip. I can do the first table switch and occaisonally one footed but I have way too speed to try that silly stuff on the other two.

Art...sounds good to me if the doc says its ok. Appearantly I have another 7 months or so of rehab before I can go back to "work" on snow.:(
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[lonerider]

Originally posted by Slim
Add a grab and it'd be way too cool.

Switch method grab - sounds so simple, but it's actually pretty awkward to do it nicely and tweak it out the "back" (i.e. the front leg) as it's completely backwards to what your used to.

[NateW]

It's the solution to my can't-grab-the-nose problem. Jump switch and grab the tail!

[eddie]

Freestyle
http://hardbooter.com/gallery/Presidents04/IMG00439
Rails
http://hardbooter.com/gallery/wtc04/IMG00985

[lonerider]

Originally posted by eddie
Freestyle
http://hardbooter.com/gallery/Presidents04/IMG00439
Rails
http://hardbooter.com/gallery/wtc04/IMG00985

Sweet rail. Did he come off straight or 90'd the rest of the way and rode away switch (that would have been awesome)? The rail setup is nice as well... it's like super wide and smooth. Only the kinked rails at Kirkwood are like that... and they leave a 2-3 foot gap from the ramp (makes them "thrilling").

Gotta avoid the tindy grab (http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/trick.htm) though... it screams freestyle newbie ;) (i'm just kidding)

[NateW]

I've been tindy and tailfishing all over the place.

And I like it like that. For every tindy those guys don't do, I'm going to do two!

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW
I've been tindy and tailfishing all over the place.

And I like it like that. For every tindy those guys don't do, I'm going to do two!

I'm sure you bring tons of style to it to... I knew someone would get all defensive and be like "I do tindys and I like it." It's why I added the smiley face and the "just kidding" to imply I was joking. I apologized if I offended anyone and or made them feel uncomfortable with their own style of freestyle (it is FREEstyle... freedom baby).

===================================
For those are wondering what we are talking about... a tindy grab is a grab behind the bindings (where as indy is between the bindings) and not on the tail. Its basically the first grab more people learn and also the result of what happens when you miss a tailgrab (hence why it has a bad rap).

A tailfish is a usually a missed stalefish grab (again needs to be between the bindings) as the rider wasn't twisted enough to reach the desired location. Of course, from the viewers perspective... its hard to tell when someone intends to grab tindy or tailfish.

[Phil]

I don't know - I think that a tindy is a lame trick. A tailfish, on the other hand can be pretty stylish - especially if you tweak it waaaay out. The problem with a tindy is that there is very little body movement and very little skill required. A tailfish (though not as good as a stalefish) is still a decent trick IMO.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Phil
I don't know - I think that a tindy is a lame trick. A tailfish, on the other hand can be pretty stylish - especially if you tweak it waaaay out. The problem with a tindy is that there is very little body movement and very little skill required. A tailfish (though not as good as a stalefish) is still a decent trick IMO.

My friend tried to make a tindy look better (and invent his own trick) by grabbing tindy, but with his arm between his legs and then grab the board a foot behind his bindings while boning his front leg... or even drop-kneeing it - so his body is all contorted.

The difficult level was definitely increased. However, it was rather hard to be flexible enough to do this yoga-like grab (reminds me of sage pose) "deep" enough so that it doesn't look like you are just grabbing your foot and so it didn't look that great.

My favorite grab that's very difficult to perform and yet very stylish is the seatbelt grab which is just a tailgrab using your *front* hand (looks like a seatbelt coming across your body).

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/tricks/seatbelt_1666c.jpg

[Jack Michaud]

tindy... seatbelt... blah blah blah. nothing will ever top a properly boned method or mute!
http://www.cs.usm.maine.edu/~gmichaud/shades.jpg
(note extra style points for wearing pre-1990 boots)

;)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
nothing will ever top a properly boned method or mute!
(note extra style points for wearing pre-1990 boots)

;)

Haha... now that's "stylish." Were you using "mid-backs" or even "lo-backs" for extra tweakability? My friend in the other picture has an old Craig Kelly Air board with "grab sticks" which are little foam grips that you stick onto the topsheet near the edges at the spots you normally grab so you get extra leverage (and a target for your hand to aim at).

[Phil]

Is that a mute or a rocket?

[Slim]

Is a true mute grab between the bindings, or can it also be in front of the front binding?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Phil
Is that a mute or a rocket?

I was wondering about that myself and actually looked it up. I always thought mute grabs were between the bindings, but I think people used to call grabbing in front of the foot on the toeside edge a mute as well. Transworld seems to say that a rocket IS a mute grab... but with the leg boned out so the board is pointing straight up.

=====================
Mute Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge either between the toes or in front of the front foot.

Rocket Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge in front of the front foot (mute) and the back leg is boned while the board points perpendicular to the ground.

Japan Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge in front of the front foot(mute), both knees are bent, the rear leg boned, and the board is pulled to the level of the head.

[Phil]

So that is a Rocket, right?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Phil
So that is a Rocket, right?

I think it is.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kids these days... a rocket is a double-handed nose grab.

[Slim]

Unless you have way flexy or lowrider boot cuffs, it seems that you'd be limited to indy, mellon, method, mute, or tail grabs in hard boots (all w/o much tweak). Also Tindy and Tailfish, but the style police would be fast on your case.

When he was doing 'iguana' airs, Damian Sanders was riding in fairly soft Koflachs. I don't know if you could get that grab if you were riding in a pair of high end hard boots.

Like the pic of the rails slide; it definitely give me something to shoot for in addition to 50-50s.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've got a pair of those Koflachs, they're not as soft as you think. They only flex to a point and then they stop, no more movement. Side to side they have a little more flex, and Damian used to leave the buckles loose on his back foot. He also had much flexier bindings than we're used to these days. Plus he was just nucking futs.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Kids these days... a rocket is a double-handed nose grab.

That's what I thought it was until I read it here... because I remember there being a "cross-rocket" which was a rocket with your hands "crossed". I guess the common defining characteristic between these two versions is that the board is pulled vertical (like a rocket ready to blast off).

Anyways... yea, I mean by design hardboots are too stiff and rigid to grab and tweak that much. So it kind of limits a rider's ability to add their own style and expression to a trick (like breakdancing in a suit of armor) - good enough to screw around with though. And it's not like most people in softboots and straps are good enough to tweak their grabs either.

[Phil]

Follow this link to the def. of a Rocket Air:

http://www.transworldsnowboarding.com/snow/instruction/lexicon/1,14020,,00.html?search=Search&by_letter=R&by_term=&last_result=9&this_page=2

you may be thinking of a cross-rocket. Rockets, cross-rockets and most other types of grabs I have found are doable in hardboots. I have yet to find a type of grab that cannot be done on both setups, but I would like to hear a challenge to that. They are not always as stylish or tweaked out, and they sometimes take more airtime, but they are doable.

[eddie]

Originally posted by lonerider
Sweet rail. Did he come off straight or 90'd the rest of the way and rode away switch (that would have been awesome)? The rail setup is nice as well... it's like super wide and smooth. Only the kinked rails at Kirkwood are like that... and they leave a 2-3 foot gap from the ramp (makes them "thrilling").

Gotta avoid the tindy grab (http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/trick.htm) though... it screams freestyle newbie ;) (i'm just kidding)

He came off strait. Look at the nose flexing, it's a 196 F2.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Phil
Follow this link to the def. of a Rocket Air:

http://www.transworldsnowboarding.com/snow/instruction/lexicon/1,14020,,00.html?search=Search&by_letter=R&by_term=&last_result=9&this_page=2

you may be thinking of a cross-rocket. Rockets, cross-rockets and most other types of grabs I have found are doable in hardboots. I have yet to find a type of grab that cannot be done on both setups, but I would like to hear a challenge to that. They are not always as stylish or tweaked out, and they sometimes take more airtime, but they are doable.

Well sure I think most of the the "grabs" are techically doable in hardboots. But unless you do a lot of yoga, I find doing something like a swiss-cheese air (back hand reaching between the legs and grabbing the heelside edge in FRONT of the front bindings) to be extremely difficult.

Of course, that is assuming that you don't count the leg positioning since you really can't "bone" out you legs. Like a nosebone mute grab, which a regular mute grab, but you poke out the nose and bone the leg so it makes a sharp angle with the board. Because of the high stance angle and lack of any medial flex, I seriously doubt any hardbooter in the world, using regular hardboot equipment could do something what the person below is doing. Now all I'm saying that that "some" tricks are next-to-impossible to do in hardboots. I'm NOT saying that hardbooters can't do freestyle, just that the rigid binding system makes certain movements extremely difficult (you can also argue that "who needs" these tricks... again, I'm not discussing that point... just thinking of the physical aspects of doing freestyle in hardboots).

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/tricks/bmute_1647c.jpg

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by lonerider
I was wondering about that myself and actually looked it up. I always thought mute grabs were between the bindings, but I think people used to call grabbing in front of the foot on the toeside edge a mute as well. Transworld seems to say that a rocket IS a mute grab... but with the leg boned out so the board is pointing straight up.

=====================
Mute Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge either between the toes or in front of the front foot.

Rocket Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge in front of the front foot (mute) and the back leg is boned while the board points perpendicular to the ground.

Japan Air - The front hand grabs the toe edge in front of the front foot(mute), both knees are bent, the rear leg boned, and the board is pulled to the level of the head.

Interesting... these definitions have surely changed since I was first trying to stick "mute" airs. But I think the above definition of a rocket is simply inaccurate. I've never heard a rocket defined as having the front hand anywhere on the toe edge. I thought it was front hand on the nose heel edge - double rocket was a rocket plus the back hand on nose toe edge, and cross rocket was front hand on nose toe edge, back hand on nose heel edge, arms crossing each other. I always called what I'm doing in the picture a mute. I also thought a Japan was basically a method but reaching across the top of the board to the toe edge.

But no matter how you slice it.... old school airs rule. Especially when grabbed, held, and drifted over a huge gap!

[Phil]

agreed

[D-Sub]

heh. if I was ever in the air smooth, landed smooth, and had a clean grab, and someone tried to stop me and tell me what it was or wasnt, uh....

I think Id throw a snowball at them and tell them to lighten the **** up.

seems to me when this **** gets on paper or has some sort of commitee to decide whats right and wrong..well...the original spirit of rebellion has certainly been hegemonized

[northcoast]

What would you call this then? Freddy does Snoqualmie?
________
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[NateW]

Tweaked-out mute airs are my favorite grab ever. I can't do them in hard boots, but when I rode softies it was what I always went for. I have to mention Damian Sanders again at this point.

I messed up the medial collateral ligament in my right (rear) knee by tweaking out tailfish grabs. That, and getting old. :)

[Phil]

D-sub- That is great, have your fun. Obviously you have never judged a competition, in which case, it is rather important that you know these things. I find it important as an instructor to know these things too. Number one, if I didn't, I would lose credibility in some of my students' eyes. Number two, when training someone for a competition, it would not work well to say "Do that one where you bone this leg out and grab here and flip the board this way, then over that hip try..." For people who just want to go out and have a blast, it doesn't matter, but for those who have made this their livelihood, it probably matters more. Furthermore, for those who like to push the limits, having names for tricks helps you to know what you can and cannot do. After all, without language, there is no understanding or comprehension of what you are doing. It is like music. You must know what chords you can and cannot play (and so much more) in order to master music. No one is trying to rain on YOUR parade. Go catch air and have fun. I will continue to learn snowboarding by the book so that I can pass that info on to those who care. Oh, and the rebellion part - that has been lost since snowboarding went mainstream. The only rebellion now is .... us! The hardbooters now are the rebellion. Of course, maybe we just know the truth.

[D-Sub]

I wasnt talking about competition though. Im talking about how people pick apart the smallest detail in everything.

It happens regularly in the "other" scene Im in (producing electronic music of the breakbeat variety) and its sad.

sure, for judging a competition its necessary, but for random riders...why?

and I wasnt saying that naming tricks is lame, either. Just...things like saying "tindy" with a clear level of snide condescension is wack.

one point tho...you CANT do a "tindy" on a skateboard really, so maybe thats where the scorn comes from? All these moves come from skateboarding...cept misty/rodeo flips (altho I was told recently that these are being done on vert?)

as for the rebellion vs mainstream...Ive been riding since 1990, which certainly doesnt make me old school but...I'll never acknowledge the mainstream factor of this. It's sad

[Phil]

I hear you D-sub. If I was out on the hill I would not care what people were pulling. I am always happy to see someone go big and go clean. (unless I was with a student, at which point we may analyze the jump) So I agree with you.

On this forum in August, though, I haven't ridden in months and I have nothing better to do than discuss specifics of airs. Sorry if that bothers you.

By the way, I should have mentioned earlier. That is a great pic of a seatbelt.

[D-Sub]

it only bothers me when people imply that something is inferior or substandard. thats just stupid.

and it WAS implied.

if youre with a student, then yes...analysis is a necessity

altho...I come from a time when the idea of a "coach" for learning "tricks" seemed kinda counterintuitive.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
I wasnt talking about competition though. Im talking about how people pick apart the smallest detail in everything.

(clipped out)



Yes, you shouldn't try to apply competition standards to regular riders. No one is saying you should run up to someone and admonish him/her for doing a tindy air in the park. I was jokingly ribbing a Eddie posting posting a photo of someone doing a mediocre tindy as an example of a hardbooter who hand do freestyle because it's a bad example and does little to further the idea that hardbooters can do freestyle. It's like posting a photo of your friend drunk and passed out on the floor to "am-I-hot-or-not.com."

I mean my friends and I use to make fun of ourselves. Each "spoof trick" was basically a variant of a mistake we made, for instance:

relaxed air ("no grab") : place your hand behind you head and arch you back... can twist the board 90 in the air at the same time as well.

power chord air ("rolling down the windows") - grab method and windmill your free arm like you are a rock star rocking his guitar.

spastic air ("can't decide on a grab") - grab indy, mellon, and then tail.

flatland rodeo ("slipping and falling over") - grab your board as you slide on the snow on your back and spin 540 and pull yourself back up onto you board while still moving.

We didn't actually have names for most of these tricks, we just did them to goof around - and we didn't care if people thought we looked silly... since that was the whole point. Pro riders screw around like us... but you won't see a single tindy in the covers of Transworld... because whether you think it's stupid or not they do have standards.

[D-Sub]

heh. transworld.

you mean that mag that is 90% ads?

you made some funny points tho

[quest4powder]

<B>Free =</B> Do whatever is fun.

<B>Style =</B> Wear neon at your own risk. Same with grabbing tindy.

<B>Beyond reproach =</B> grab tindy wearing neon 16 feet above the lip.
________
Xtremgirl cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/xtremgirl)

[D-Sub]

heh. Im gonna go watch critical condition again. I think damian did all of the above on a regular basis:)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
heh. transworld.

you mean that mag that is 90% ads?

you made some funny points tho

Exactly... all those ads are photos of snowboarders doing aerials. Right? I didn't say Transworld had content, but it sure has a lot of freestyle aerial photos.

BTW, I looked it up... apparently way back when Damian Sanders did it, it was called an "Iguana Air" and Damian Sanders made it famous, but now the tindy has fallen out of favor - just like neon one-pieces suits (retro revivial nonewithstanding). That's just the way the snowboarding world is today - you're already a rebel just by still being a hardbooter - not like any of us (should) care if the kids today think whether we look cool or stylish.

[D-Sub]

Iguana air. thats dope!

funny that hardbooting is the "rebel" thing now. In all honesty it seems kinda...well...almost stuffy sometimes:)

I mean...we're all gettin older...a lot less prone to acts of the r word...

I dunno

anyway, yeah...I guess it really doesnt matter. just dont like seein hints of condescension or derision

[Skully]

Originally posted by lonerider

BTW, I looked it up... apparently way back when Damian Sanders did it, it was called an "Iguana Air" and Damian Sanders made it famous, but now the tindy has fallen out of favor - just like neon one-pieces suits (retro revivial nonewithstanding)[/B]

Actually, the "Iguana Air" was a back flip with the tindy grab.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Skully
Actually, the "Iguana Air" was a back flip with the tindy grab.

Where did you learn that from? (i.e. did you just hear it once, or did something explicitly tell your that an iguana air is a backflip tindy)

Every reference I've found on the web has no mention of a backflip in it. It would breaks the general naming scheme of tricks. An "air" is always a straight air trick (usually a grab), if there is a spin or flip, the trick isn't called an air (except air to fakie).

But I'm only using what I found on the web, all the references ( twsnow, expn, xgames, boardzone, ssx ;) ) could be wrong.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Iguana air is the laid-out back flip with the grab, I've read/heard Damian call it that a few times. Or maybe he called it an Iguana back flip. Anyways, Iguana was definitely in there.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Iguana air is the laid-out back flip with the grab, I've read/heard Damian call it that a few times. Or maybe he called it an Iguana back flip. Anyways, Iguana was definitely in there.

An iguana backflip would seem to follow the naming style, like say 360 mellon, but these terms aren't locked in stone anyway.

[Skully]

Originally posted by lonerider
Where did you learn that from? (i.e. did you just hear it once, or did something explicitly tell your that an iguana air is a backflip tindy)

I learnt it from the man himself....

I don't ever remember seeing a reference to an "Iguana Air." Howver, I do remember Damian refering to Iguana backflips, seen hundreds of photos of him refering to Iguana backflips, and seen him do them hundreds of times in the old videos.....


http://i1.ebayimg.com/03/i/02/40/35/d5_1_b.JPG

[quest4powder]

...for posting the pic of D. Sanders throwing the backflip. It was awesome then; it's still awesome now!
________
Live sex (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by quest4powder
...for posting the pic of D. Sanders throwing the backflip. It was awesome then; it's still awesome now!

Yea, there's a good example where you won't have anyone bothering you about grabbing tindy.

[Skully]

The cool thing about the old freestylers like Damian is they didn't have to ride a 150 to be able to spin, etc. Damian always road a 175 and didn't have any problem spinning.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, but he didn't spin like the kids do now.

[Phil]

his 175 had the stance set waaaay back (as did most boards of the day) and the stances of the day had your feet really close together. So you had less power and so the spin was not as balanced either. The guy was incredible! He also used to land switch in the pow and crud which is amazing when you hardly have any tail on your board.

On a side note: all this talk of Indies and Iguanas - on the cover of SB'ers in Exile, the backflip he is pulling is a stalefish.

I am enough of a loser that I usually get this tape out and watch it around late September when I start to get the "bug".

[D-Sub]

another name:

Farmer

not hardboots obviously, but DAMN what a nut.

didnt a lot of euros freeride in hardboots? I remember a few articles in TW...cant remember names tho...but one guy was launchin cliffs and rocks, etc, all in a hard setup...

[Slim]

On a side note: all this talk of Indies and Iguanas - on the cover of SB'ers in Exile, the backflip he is pulling is a stalefish.

Methinks it is a tailfish. Stalefish is <I>between</I> the bindings. Great move, whatever you call it.

[Skully]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill
Yeah, but he didn't spin like the kids do now.

Yeah, I know, he didn't spin like they do now, but he looked BETTER....

At least back then riders had individual style. If you saw Damian ridiing, you knew it was him, by his riding style. Same with Craig Kelly, and all the old MBHC crew, etc. Nowadays I can't tell one little jibber from the other - they all look the same spinning and flipping and breaking their necks.

A lot of the guys now probably do have their own style too. I just don't have time to follow it like I used to. The joys of being a desk jockey....

Oh, I gues I should be working...

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Skully
The cool thing about the old freestylers like Damian is they didn't have to ride a 150 to be able to spin, etc. Damian always road a 175 and didn't have any problem spinning.

Oldschool freestylers rode what they thought was the best available to them at the time. Most freestyle riders ride boards in the 155-160 range which are probably more responsive and stable than the 175 boards Damian Sanders use to ride.

I'm sure any pro rider today could spin on a 175 board, but it would be silly to trudge around in equipment that isn't the best for what you are doing. I doubt any old school rider got as much air or spin/flipped/rodeod as smooth as the today's best riders. Partially that because today's riders are technically better more proficient - with more instruction, training and practice, and part of that is because the technology is better as well.

In the end, I think what you are really saying is you prefer the style and culture that existed when you were young to the newcomers now a days... which makes sense on an emotional level. That is to say this is really more about wanting to be young again and therefore cherishing all that was associated with your youth (aka each generation always claimed their music, their athletics, etc... was the best).

For me I will probably always prefer smooth grace of Terje Haakonsen to say the corked 1080s of Kevin Jones (although he's already old news as well) or all the extra rail tricks of the recent days (a few rails are fun... but having have the course be rails is excessive for me).

[D-Sub]

cant say I agree with you about the holding on to ones youth thing either

sometimes those "back then it was this way" arguments are truly valid!

like you said up above...snowboarding is now trendy..or rather, mainstream...

when you get schools designed to teach _moves_ that used to be based on expression and imagination, something has been lost.

yet another art made into science it seems

[D-Sub]

oh and btw...dont talk to Skully about NEW...I mean...look at the jacket he's wearin in his avatar fer chrissakes!

:)

[Slim]

Partially that because today's riders are technically better more proficient - with more instruction, training and practice, and part of that is because the technology is better as well.

Technology including terrain features and halfpipes. It's amazing to see how far that's come when looking back at old halfpipe comp video. Why, back in the day, we used to shovel the ice-pipe <I>by hand</I>.

And it was uphill both ways!

[D-Sub]

heh. thats true tho..even the features are more conducive to focusing on the difficulty of the jump now

does anyone freeride tho? seems like all you see is sculpted kickers, even in the backcountry?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
sometimes those "back then it was this way" arguments are truly valid!

Question is whether this is one of those cases. Clearly it's a debating and high opinionated issue.



like you said up above...snowboarding is now trendy..or rather, mainstream...

when you get schools designed to teach moves that used to be based on expression and imagination, something has been lost.

yet another art made into science it seems

does anyone freeride tho? seems like all you see is sculpted kickers, even in the backcountry?


I understand what you are saying. But I think you are over oversimplifying the my point to a romanticized extreme. Just because someone teaches you how to do a 360, doesn't mean you can't have you own style to it. Using video review to go over the flaws in your technique isn't going to turn everyone into identical automatons. If you just showed the body silhouettes of any of my friends I could pick them out by their riding styles and given enough time I know I could do the same for most pro riders.

Update: Terje freerides a ton. He barely competes any more. I sure many of them freeride... but you just don't see it that often. I mean would you pay $20 just a to watch a bunch of other people get awesome powder?


Originally posted by Slim
Technology including terrain features and halfpipes. It's amazing to see how far that's come when looking back at old halfpipe comp video. Why, back in the day, we used to shovel the ice-pipe <I>by hand</I>.

And it was uphill both ways!

Yea, that's what one of the major things I noticed when watching old videos... how crappy those handmade halfpipes looked. I grew up in the pipedragon days, and now I prefer the super pipedragons to those.

Still old boards (10-15 years ago) are pretty crappy in my opinion.

[D-Sub]

gotcha.

I dunno...Im obviously getting older...

[Skully]

Originally posted by lonerider
I doubt any old school rider got as much air or spin/flipped/rodeod as smooth as the today's best riders.

You obviosly haven't seen any of the "old school" videos if you think that they didn't get as much air as they do today. Damian and Steve Graham and that crew went PLENTY big.

Heh heh.

We haven't had a post go on like this for a long time. (At least without it getting deleted.)

Anyone want to talk about releasable bindings?

Flame Away!

And D-Sub - don't you mess with the jacket. It'll end up in a museum someday, long with most of the boards I still ride. :)

[D-Sub]

they definitely didnt spin as much then, and the rodeo/misty flip hadnt even been thought of yet, but...they went pretty damn big

and again, a lot of it was in genuine freeride terrain, not pre-formed jumps with perfect landings. there's points in that for sure!

I dunno...seems funny...aint been much talk about freestyle/freeriding in hardboots tho!

damn..wish I could remember the guys name from that TW article....uh...fudge

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Skully
You obviosly haven't seen any of the "old school" videos if you think that they didn't get as much air as they do today. Damian and Steve Graham and that crew went PLENTY big.
Flame Away!

Sorry, I should haved qualified my comment... I mean to say they didn't go as big in the halfpipe or quarterpipe. I don't think it was possible with the terrain element techology they had back then. I mean I saw Shane Flood go 50 ft straight up into the air at the World Quarterpipe Championships (flew way past the 25 ft pole making ontop of the 20 ft wall).

[D-Sub]

holy ****! are you serious?

wait...there was a 20foot wall, then a 25 foot marker, and he went PAST that?

god DAMN thats high.

[D-Sub]

oh oh..I got it. the tranny/quarterpipe was 20 feet, and the height marker was 25 so he was 50' from the ground.

I was thinkin from the lip! damn

[lonerider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
oh oh..I got it. the tranny/quarterpipe was 20 feet, and the height marker was 25 so he was 50' from the ground.

I was thinkin from the lip! damn

Yea, that's what I meant. It was like 30 feet or so from the lip. but for him looking down at that angle it must have been quite a view. I remember catching him in the corner of my eye during the practice runs as I was walking around and being like "dang he's flapping a lot" and then I noticed he's past the height marker. Then I realized he was getting use to his trajectory as it would seriously suck to land on the wall or down to low on the transition.

[D-Sub]

heh. nice view indeed. thats just insane.

[eddie]

Originally posted by Skully
Anyone want to talk about releasable bindings?

Has anyone seen the new releasable bindings by Burton?

They're not built for safety, in fact they are built for the jibbers so they don't have to unstrap their bindings to hike back up the hill. I think they are called Fusion.

[northcoast]

new bindings? Burton likes to either take or buy new technology rather than create it themselves. IE capstrap from technine, snowskate from steve franke, and now the releasable strap binding from Snobo and Revolution.
________
Cock (http://www.****tube.com/video/53924/getting-her-pierced-pussy-drilled-with-a-fat-cock-badly-wanting-to-cum)

[Coldrider]

Originally posted by D-Sub
...damn..wish I could remember the guys name from that TW article.

Martin Freinamedetz?
Jose Fernandez?

They were both getting press and riding hard boots in the mid/late 80's.