The Float

[nigelc]

from the happy fun plate thread:

"Turning a short board long requires the mastery of the float. Some people have a brutally hard time with this, usually its because they feel the need to be in a locked in turn all the time"

I would really appreciate some further detail on this Snowman, if possible

[bobdea]

from the happy fun plate thread:

"Turning a short board long requires the mastery of the float. Some people have a brutally hard time with this, usually its because they feel the need to be in a locked in turn all the time"

I would really appreciate some further detail on this Snowman, if possible

here we go!!!!!



I'm sure ESPI and Maciek are gonna chime in.

I suspect snowman is talking more about weight placement and when to actually lock into a turn than an old thread where people were basically saying that bending the board by jamming their knees is how you make the board turn smaller.

Madds for example really respond in a huge way depending on what leg you are pressuring. Every board I've had has done this, some more than others.

[queequeg]

During SES I switched my go-to board from a board with a fairly short 12.75 radius to something with a considerably longer radius (my guess is somewhere between 14.5 and 16). This has been a big eye opener for me. Long radiuses are way more fun to ride, from what I am experiencing so far.

From what I've learned so far on this board, I can get the board to turn tighter by:

a) getting the board on edge faster.
b) getting the board higher up on edge.
c) delaying the application of edge pressure to the waist somewhat during initiation--essentially letting the nose and tail guide while the waist floats for a moment, and then applying pressure directly under the waist more rapidly.

I'm not sure what Mark means by "the float" but if I had to guess, he might be talking about point C. It seems to me that with this board, when I am riding hard and trying to tighten my radiuses, I am very light between turns and push very hard once I have the board on edge -- but I wait until I am up on edge to push. Whenever I apply lots of edge pressure early, I seem to have more difficulty getting my turns tight.

I'm wondering if this is what he means by float? YMMV -- my experience is limited with longer SCRs.

When I've got it right, my turns this way are still very much locked in during the apex, but not so much at the transitional phases. Transitions happen a lot faster too. I'm still very much learning how.

[Dr D]

Not sure I am following the float idea exactly as the author intended but, turning a short board long for me entails using my feet to flatten out the board through the turn. In essence reducing the boards ability to decamber by pushing my front toes down and towards the nose and my rear heel toward the tail.

[BadBrad]

To make bigger turns with a small SCR you just don't tilt it up as high on edge, right?

[nigelc]

To make bigger turns with a small SCR you just don't tilt it up as high on edge, right?

thats what I would have thought until snowmans use of the word float, which is why I am intrigued

[queequeg]

To make bigger turns with a small SCR you just don't tilt it up as high on edge, right?

Tilting the board higher up on edge is almost always going to result in a tighter turn, regardless of SCR length. I think what snowman is talking about is a bit different than what I thought, given bjvircks' post in the "Happy Fun Plate" thread.

[bobdea]

I'm still saying you can make adjustments through where you're putting pressure.
ride the same board in two flexes, I did just that with a madd 170, I rode mine and then later one that was stiffer. I theorize that you're able to deflect the nose more on a softer board and it allows you a tighter more easily.

same thing applies in really soft snow, get way forward and you could, 1 break your board, 2 your ribs, 3 your ankle,4 bend or break a bail or 5 just make a real small turn.
if you sit back and "surf" soft snow even carving pretty far over the 5 points above are not a problem(usually).

[KingCrimson]

Not sure I am following the float idea exactly as the author intended but, turning a short board long for me entails using my feet to flatten out the board through the turn. In essence reducing the boards ability to decamber by pushing my front toes down and towards the nose and my rear heel toward the tail.

I've been fortunate enough to get hours upon hours of free "lessons" from a former snowboard (on plates) instructor. He tells me to do just that, but to tighten up the turn, not stretch it out. For much of this season my heelside was vastly dominant because I would get impatient on my toeside and try and drive the board only to make it skid, but he told me (once I was in the fall line) to push in the direction my foot is facing (forwards and down) and instantly I had the board whipping around on toeside.

This seems to contradict what you're saying, but maybe the fact that I have a board with a ton of setback adding to an already long nose changes this. My though is that if you're pressuring anywhere on the board inside of the sidecut, you'll just further decamber the board.

[carvedog]

Tilting the board higher up on edge is almost always going to result in a tighter turn, regardless of SCR length.

I respectfully disagree with this. Without pressure modulation or some rotary movements of some kind board pitch ( angle to the snow ) makes very little difference to the turn particularly on a long SCR board.

[shawndoggy]

I respectfully disagree with this. Without pressure modulation or some rotary movements of some kind board pitch ( angle to the snow ) makes very little difference to the turn particularly on a long SCR board.

But is it possible to highly angulate the board without putting more weight into it? I'm just thinking you'd fall over if you didn't.

[LeeW]

I suspect Snowman meant "float" as in go with the "flow" instead of jamming/edging it hard ?

[DjulezD]

Can anybody provide one ? :confused:

The way I understand "the float" is a technique where you apply a varying degree of pressure to modulate the turn radius. A progressive/elliptic radius vs a circular radius. Big curves at speed/SGS curves involve a blend of staying locked on edge/turning on the edge/skidding or slarving. The difficulty in applying this technique to a short radius/shorter board is to control this pressure and handle the chatter at speed.

[skategoat]

On a short radius board, if you jam the edges hard, you're going to get whipped around fast. I kind of like that and ride mostly short radius boards here in Ontario. If I rode an 18m board, I'd get two turns in before I hit the bottom.

By float, I presume it to mean riding with less edge pressure and less inclined board. Not making abrupt turns. I do this over rough patches of snow. I ride as if I'm riding a wakeboard on a choppy lake.

[DjulezD]

Skategoat, this is exactly what happened to me the first time I rode the Dupraz, wanted to push it like a GS board because of the length and speed it developed. Happened tu turn like a small freeride board...

[Bubba]

Excellent analogies everyone. Basically its being able to vary the amount of engagement and disengagement through out the turn. Sometimes you need to be able do minor line corrections, tighten it up, stretch it out, scrub speed, bobble through some funky chowder what ever the case may be. To me it seems much easier to accomplish all of these things on our current metal race shape offerings. They seem to allow you to engage and disengage very comfortably throughout the entire turn to allow for easier corrections, what ever they may be. Older traditional shape race boards dont seem to be nearly as friendly but they are still float able. The variable sidecuts on current offerings aid tremendously in being able to change turn sizes. Who would of thunk you could have a stick with a 13m cut at the nose and a 20m cut at the tail. Makes for an incredibly versitale snowboard.

I guess my take on this is to ride it like a surfboard. Yes I live in MN but spent a huge chunk of my life in SoCal riding waves. Like snow, water conditions are never constant. You always have to adjust to how the water/snow changes from turn to turn. In my mind, the "float" is the transition between turns and how you make the board react to a given condition. Snow may be more constant in some cases but we are always having to adjust to changing conditions and other idoits on the snow as well. Have never been on a metal board but one is coming from Bruce and can't wait to test the ride. I may be off base on this but it is just my analogy.

[NateW]

I respectfully disagree with this. Without pressure modulation or some rotary movements of some kind board pitch ( angle to the snow ) makes very little difference to the turn particularly on a long SCR board.

I carve completely the opposite of what you just described. I tip the board on edge, it turns. To turn tighter, I increase the edge angle. I figure it's the board's job to distribute the pressure, I just keep it equal between my feet. Rotary movements only come into play when I'm making skidded turns.

[BadBrad]

On a short radius board, if you jam the edges hard, you're going to get whipped around fast. I kind of like that and ride mostly short radius boards here in Ontario. If I rode an 18m board, I'd get two turns in before I hit the bottom.



That's kind of the way I feel. At moderate speeds a small scr can make nice tight turns, which is great for controlling speed and for maneuvering on the small crowded local slopes around here. If you don't put it as high on edge it will make bigger turns, so it seems to do everything well assuming you ride at moderate speeds. At high speeds a bigger scr will provide more stability and allow a good rider to make big laid-out carves, but you need a wide, uncrowded slope for this. For a struggling intermediate like me, a big scr tends to just throw me into the woods. My board with the biggest scr is 11m (on a WCR metal), and I don't think I'm ready for anything bigger than that.

[queequeg]

I respectfully disagree with this. Without pressure modulation or some rotary movements of some kind board pitch ( angle to the snow ) makes very little difference to the turn particularly on a long SCR board.

Are you kidding? You're saying you can turn just as tight with 45 degrees of inclination as you can at 75 degrees of inclination. This I have to see ...

I think we'll both have to respectfully disagree on this point. The basic physics of your point make no sense to my mind ... Of course some pressure is required, to decamber the board. However, the extent to which you can decamber the board on any given surface is heavily dependent upon board inclination--and the more you decamber the board, the tighter it is going to turn. To be sure, there are other influencing factors but this has a big influence on turn radius. Given the same rider input at two different degrees of board inclination, higher inclination will always yeild a tighter turn.

[Erik J]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the float thing. Standing up taller while staying light on the edge?

[tex1230]

sounds like controlled skidding by the way snowman describes it. I don't know how it works wither...but i used to do it alot on my madd 158. Long turns on a short sidecut...never really "locked-in" but not really skidding either...

[carvedog]

Tilting the board higher up on edge is almost always going to result in a tighter turn, regardless of SCR length.

On shorter SCR boards you may be right. I know on my Burner that just tipping the board on edge does not achieve a turn. It can but not unless you do something else. For me it is about isolating movements. Just tipping the board does not do it. Tipping the board and doing something, anything else does. Think about which of those movements are most effective and then you will see what I am talking about.

It's about riding the board or letting the board ride you. Tipping and expecting good results=letting the board ride you. See my sig......


Are you kidding? You're saying you can turn just as tight with 45 degrees of inclination as you can at 75 degrees of inclination. This I have to see ...
Never said that at all. Don't put words in my mouth, or suppositions. I am assuming that you are talking about board angle to the snow?? Inclination is usually used to refer to body angle to the snow. At least in my part of the world.

What I did say is that without doing something else to the board, that the angle of board to snow will not make a big difference in the turn.

Try to turn without doing anything but tipping the board on edge. An example: on a flat cat track I can get some very high edge angles without shooting off of the cat track or radically changing my direction.


Of course some pressure is required, to decamber the board. However, the extent to which you can decamber the board on any given surface is heavily dependent upon board inclination--and the more you decamber the board, the tighter it is going to turn. To be sure, there are other influencing factors but this has a big influence on turn radius. Given the same rider input at two different degrees of board inclination, higher inclination will always yeild a tighter turn.

My point exactly. You were saying it is all dependent on board inclination. Without other input I don't think it does.


I carve completely the opposite of what you just described. I tip the board on edge, it turns. To turn tighter, I increase the edge angle. I figure it's the board's job to distribute the pressure, I just keep it equal between my feet. Rotary movements only come into play when I'm making skidded turns. I saw some pics of you riding - you know I like your style- I think you use a lot more rotary than you think.

We are not just talking about rotary either. I said without doing something else. Never suck the board up just a little to initiate easier? Never push just a little at the end of the turn? Seems like you like to stand up nice tall at a couple of points in your turn.

What my original statement was about more than anything is looking at how series of movements work together. Not just tipping board higher and getting a tighter turn.

That is all.

[noschoolrider]

carvedog and Snowman have some good points and here are some more things to think about:

In realm of US professional coaches (United States Ski and Snowboard Association) and US snowboard instructors (American Association of Snowboard Instructors) and US ski instructors (Professional Ski Instructors of America), the terms angulation, inclination, and banking refer to body positions.

Regarding "board inclination": most professionals would use the term "edge angle" instead of "board inclination".

The four basic skills are: Balancing movements, Edge-control movements, Rotary movements, and Pressure-control movements.

Here is a description of rotary movements that might be beneficial (note: rotary movements can also be considered muscular movements/forces):

Rotary Movements: involve turning, twisting, pivoting, leveraging, or steering movements of part of the body, the body as a whole, or of one part of the body relative to another. As in the case with the other three skills, rotary movements may be very subtle or quite strong, fully developed or blocked, and active or reactive, depending on the snowboarder's wishes. Rotary movements can include turning of the feet, knees, legs, hips, torso, or whole body.

If you are balanced on your uphill edge doing a carved traverse with your board’s edge angle at 30 degrees and you increase the edge angle to 60 degrees you will still be doing a carved traverse (not turning) unless the board bends more and/or you make some other adjustment/movement that makes the board turn/steer uphill. However, if you are headed down the fall-line (downhill) while centered (lengthwise), and you roll the board onto a 30 degree edge angle the board will start to make a turn the size that it’s side cut radius is designed for. If you increase the edge angle to 60 degrees it may tighten the turn up a little, but what would really make a difference is if the board bended more, which sometimes is what happens when you put the board on a higher edge angle. If the board is on an edge angle of 10 degrees it usually won’t flex lengthwise very much without rider input because that low of an edge angle usually has less pressure on it. Also, if the board is on an extreme edge angle (around 80 degrees or more) it usually won’t flex lengthwise very much without rider input because the board is basically vertical and relying upon it’s torsional rigidity to keep it stable. Most professionals consider an edge angle between 30 and 60 degrees to be the most effective for high performance.

The Float:

To make a short board (example: a 163cm with a 9.5m side cut radius) do a big (long radius) carved turn you need to start the turn with a slower rhythm with the deliberate intention to draw out the turn and make constant adjustments to reduce the board’s tendency to steer/flex/bend into the turn – think of it as forcing the board to steer a bigger turn than what it wants to make.

To make a big board (example: a 185cm with a 18m side cut radius) do a tight (short radius) carved turn you need to start the turn with a faster (more aggressive) rhythm with the deliberate intention to tighten the turn and make constant adjustments to increase the board’s ability to steer/flex/bend into the turn – think of it as forcing the board to steer a tighter turn than what it wants to make.

When you truly understand how to use (and blend/combine) the four basic skills listed above then you will be headed in the direction that will allow you to be a very efficient, versatile, and powerful rider.

[noschoolrider]

In the situation I was describing the word "rhythm" is interchangeable with "timing" and/or "intensity" and a skilled rider can make a change in their rhythm/timing/intensity whenever and wherever they want, including in any phase of a turn (phases of a turn: initiation, control, finish & transfer). However, when trying to make a board complete a turn that is a radically different radius than what the board’s side cut radius is designed to do then you will have more success (especially on hard snow) if the rhythm/timing/intensity of the initiation of the turn matches with the intended turn shape.

Example: If you want to make a short board do a big (long radius) carved turn but you initiate the turn (the initiation phase) with the rhythm/timing/intensity of a short radius turn, then when you enter the controlling phase of the turn you will need to do a radical adjustment to go from a short radius turn to a long radius turn, which will effect the overall shape and look of the turn (the track on the snow will not be as pure/clean of a carve and it will not have a consistent long radius arc).

[BlueB]

Gentlemen,
You are talking about the 5th skill here, the one that AASI apparently doesn't know about, but that is reckognised by CASI big time: Timing & Coordination.
That's why Canucks rule! ;)

[Erik J]

With all due respect, it seems to me that you guys are overthinking this one. Perhaps I'm not grasping the point?

[bobdea]

yeah, I agree with Erik

either I'm missing something or it's a skill that we all have to master to even a half decent rider.

I think at least most of us are doing it with every turn we make to some degree.



the biggest difference seems to be our descriptions of how we accomplish the same thing. lots of input we give our boards people will describe in totally different ways. Whats actually happening may actually be what we trying to do (say pressure the nose or "peddle") but it still accomplishes the same thing.

[noschoolrider]

Semantics can make you stiff...
Think of your board as a Guitar string and your body as the thumb
that is plucking it...The more you pluck the better the music. :biggthump

Expert snowboarders are technical, precise, and fluid riders, however people with overly active analytical minds often struggle with the flow of the movements that are necessary to be fluid and precise, but knowledge is power! The trick is to balance the technical knowledge with the skills and the riding to become fluid, versatile/adaptable, powerful, and precise.

I have met a lot of snowboarders (and guitar players) who have been doing it for years but they still can’t make good turns or good music.

Only perfect practice provides perfect results!

Practicing incorrect movements reinforces those incorrect movements, which will result in bad habits that will be very difficult to correct later on.

Understanding the technical terminology and knowing how and why things work (or do not work) is beneficial to learning and being able to efficiently communicate.

If you don’t understand it, then that indicates you don’t know it. If that’s the case, you might want to take a lesson from someone who knows it, can do it, and can teach it. ;)

[tex1230]

Understanding the technical terminology and knowing how and why things work (or do not work) is beneficial to learning and being able to efficiently communicate.

If you don’t understand it, then that indicates you don’t know it. If that’s the case, you might want to take a lesson from someone who knows it, can do it, and can teach it. ;)


Bullsh!t.

Just because I can't tell you in your terms what is happenning throughout my turn, or skid, or whatever, does not mean I don't understand it. My muscles have a better memory than my mind...and if I have to think about every part of a turn, I can guarantee it will fall apart.

[bobdea]

Bullsh!t.

Just because I can't tell you in your terms what is happenning throughout my turn, or skid, or whatever, does not mean I don't understand it. My muscles have a better memory than my mind...and if I have to think about every part of a turn, I can guarantee it will fall apart.

yes, I agree to a certain extent.
No schoolrider you're giving a standard PSIA lecture and there's less to it for most people.
Even if the movements are right it might be for the wrong reasons. doesn't matter though as long as you don't focus too much on how the board is working. I've heard softboot AASI guys talk about twisting the board before but there's so many variables that to me their movement is fine but but the reasoning behind it is flawed.
I've known some pros, some of which are clueless about HOW their gear works but are unreal at making it work. that's the other side of it, some people figure it out pretty naturally.

[noschoolrider]

Bullsh!t.

Just because I can't tell you in your terms what is happenning throughout my turn, or skid, or whatever, does not mean I don't understand it. My muscles have a better memory than my mind...and if I have to think about every part of a turn, I can guarantee it will fall apart.

I never said, "if you can’t explain it then you don't understand it".

I said, "If you don’t understand it, then that <b>indicates</b> you don’t know it".

Those are two completely different statement, you have twisted what I said and my use of the word "indicates" is not an absolute meaning ("indicates" as in a sign that you don’t know it – it is not the same meaning as saying "you don’t know it").

I agree that there are people who can do it but they can’t explain it, and that when something becomes instinctive through repetition then you don’t need to think about it. However, I think you’ll agree that if a person can’t explain it, then they are not the most qualified person to teach it to others.



Even if the movements are right it might be for the wrong reasons.


If you’re using movements for the wrong reasons then they might not the best choice of movements.

[bobdea]

very true, apply that to every rider on the planet no one is flawless.

[DjulezD]

...and master the power of the float you will.

[noschoolrider]

Try this one then!

Think of your board as a Book, and in your case the Body is made up
of all the Words in the Dictionary...Then ask yourself this,
Just where do Instructors come from anyway?
Who taught You, Who taught Them?

Can you do a Backside Floater?
Do you know what a backside floater is? of course not!
It is a move I made up years ago and named. :rolleyes:
Will I teach it to you...maybe :D

Some people can read better and faster than others – they are usually the ones who have had better instruction.

A Backside Floater comes from a trick that surfers do - when they "float" on the lip of the wave (ride along on top of the breaking lip on their backside). That trick was adapted to skateboarding and snowboarding a long time ago. I have several old videos that show Craig Kelly doing Backside Floaters on ridges and spines. It’s actually an easy trick to learn, but since you invented it then you must know that. ;)

It looks like this has been too much mental stimulation for some – sorry!

I'm working on a picture and pop-up book. :1luvu:

[BlueB]

Floater is when you don't flush the toilet... I'm pretty sure that the backside had to do something with it...

[noschoolrider]

sorry you disagree with my premise that to much input can make us stiff and tight. No disrespect intended. :)

Actually, I do agree. I thought this point came across when I said, “Expert snowboarders are technical, precise, and fluid riders, however people with overly active analytical minds often struggle with the flow of the movements that are necessary to be fluid and precise, but knowledge is power! The trick is to balance the technical knowledge with the skills and the riding to become fluid, versatile/adaptable, powerful, and precise.”

I'd love to rip some carving backside floaters with you sometime.

Have a great summer (I'm probably done posting till next season).

[shawndoggy]

On the hill don does have a knack for being able to articulate quickly and precisely what his students are doing (and doing wrong) and can convey the message in a few words and a few "like this!" follow-me moves.

He's way more "talky" or theoretical in this thread than he is on the hill. Even "master carvers" would be served by his keen eye. But it is good to know he knows WTF he's talkin' about.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

On the hill don does have a knack for being able to articulate quickly and precisely what his students are doing (and doing wrong) and can convey the message in a few words and a few "like this!" follow-me moves.

He's way more "talky" or theoretical in this thread than he is on the hill. Even "master carvers" would be served by his keen eye. But it is good to know he knows WTF he's talkin' about.

With your video skills and Don's teaching prowess, perhaps we can look forward to some instructional "How To" videos next season?

Some of the videographers and alpine instructors will eventually get together to produce some instructional videos. Tom has done some and they are all welcome for sure!!

See you next winter Don!! Thanks again for the tasty "Get Well" package, I LOVE THOSE THINGS!!!

[b0ardski]

Noschool has been skoolin' riders since I met him 20 yrs ago at 'acres, I'm sure his riding, tech knowledge, teaching skill have distilled like a fine whiskey since then.

You don't have to ride well to understand b.e.r.p. & d.i.r.t. & you don't have to understand b.e.r.p. & d.i.r.t. to ride well and go big.

Elite instructors, by way of practice,practice,PRACTICE, know & do, with distilled communication skills, and adapt the retoric to an individuals learning style.

Over analyzation can distract the body/muscle memory from feeling the fluidity required for adaptive/versital riding,
ie turning anywhere anytime in any conditions.


may the float be with you