First Post After Years of Reading

[becca]

Wow! So Bomber Online decided to go ahead and get with the current administration -- one more blow to freedom of speech, and all in the name of keeping this a family site. Give me a break.

If Bomber Online is so concerned about this issue why not get rid of the entire Eye Candy thread? Or is degrading women an acceptable family value? Likewise, have you noticed that some users’ avatars are distasteful too? Evidently Bomber has no qualms with sanctioning the gruesome.

I’m a firm believer in freedom of expression and speech, so don’t interpret this as a call for further censorship, I’m just pointing out the irregularities in your offensive against the offensive. CMC’s posts (yes I've been paying enough attention that I caught most of the now deleted exchanges, and he was not the only one getting personal) were often opinionated, arrogant, obnoxious and offensive. But this makes him different from some other users how?

[Jon Dahl]

Now for a personal observation. Something that seems to have been forgotten about freedom of speech; with great freedom comes great responsibility. Take a minute and truly let that soak in. When I speek freely, I am also responsible to consider the consequences of what I am saying. That goes for ALL that I say or do. If we were dealing with the great issues of our time, perhaps we could make an issue of censorship here, but we are talking snowboarding here! We also enter here and agree, by using this site, to abide by rules. I want to be able to send ANYONE I know here and not have them offended by lewdness or profanity. Anyone can make a point without those items entering into the conversation, and make their point better. Look at the great orators of our country, those who made freedom possible. Mostly they were literate and w/o profanity. Think we can learn something??? Also, if you never say anything you should be ashamed of, you'll never be ashamed of what you say! And I post with my real name because it keeps me accountable, something we all should be.

[becca]

Jon,

Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you: with great freedom comes great responsibility, hence the reason for my post. It seems in your hurry to lecture me on Freedom of Speech you missed my point. I'm not defending the use of profanity, I'm pointing out that if Bomber is claiming to be a "family site" and taking on the task of responsible censorship (presuming such a concept exists) then the standards should apply to everyone.

Censorship as a tool to quiet voices of dissent is something that deserves attention--even when it's only regarding snowboards.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's not censorship. It's a privately run forum, the owners are free to moderate as they please. CMC is perfectly free to pay the money to set up his own servers, buy a domain name and publish whatever he likes.

[D-Sub]

right..but the point is...becca's point at least:

ever heard of even handedness?

the claims are made that this is a "family" site and yet..as becca pointed out...theres the thread about hooters...etc etc...

its pretty darn clear that CMC is disliked by a few around here, and while he definitely comes off as a total jerk sometimes...the "this is a family site" excuse doesnt fly in face of other threads that are left untouched.

perhaps bomber needs a "badlands" forum?

[Jon Dahl]

that the spirit of the rules and guidlines for this forum may very well be violated both by some of the threads, and by a few of the avatars. If you feel that is the case, as a member of this forum, you can report those things to one of the moderators, and see what becomes of it. Don't make me feel like the lone ranger here, please! Does responsible censorship exist? I believe so, otherwise society could not exist. Courtesy and deference really are the oil of society. The spirit that it is done in makes a huge difference in how it is recieved. I hold very strong beliefs and opinions, but I feel that all should be able to speak freely. Attacking a person or his beliefs/convictions is not exercising freedom of speech, just bullying. 'Nuff said.

[D-Sub]

john

Im sorry but did you read becca's posts? She's correct in saying that you pulled a hair-trigger move in lecturing her on "freedom"

she's actually sorta arguing _against_ "censorship" because the moderating that is in place seems a bit lopsided.

[Jon Dahl]

read her posts, and I do agree with a good deal of what she has said. That said, freedom of speech is a VERY large subject, and application of it is somewhat complicated. For a moderator to delete certain things because of content not being in line with the rules is proper and good, and in line with the spirit of the fourth amendment, i.e. a mans home is his castle. Fin has graciously provided server space (home) and rules apply. becca brought politics into this, in reference to the current admin. and its policies, and well beyond the proper scope of this forum. However, a careful study of the environment that formed the first ten amendments would certainly change our views on them. Again, 'nuff said.

[Jack Michaud]

I was hoping Fin would jump in here, but before this thread spirals into out of control speculation, I would like to offer the following.

After the recent incidents, Fin, Bob and I emailed about just what kind of a "family site" this is. We agreed that the atmosphere here should be regarded the same as a bar/restaurant at a ski resort during apres-ski hours. That is, the clientele is primarily adult, but minors are allowed. Adult conversations and language will be used within reasonable limits. The belligerent drunk standing on the chair shouting and waving a pitcher of beer will either be asked to calm down or be ejected. In a nutshell, this site is PG-13.

The actions taken against cmc were not due entirely to an isolated incident. He has repeatedly flaunted and broken the established guidelines and has been warned several times. He has been given <i>many</i> opportunities to be a positive contributor to this private community. Nobody is glad that it has come to this.

Speaking for myself, I am especially disappointed because I actually like the guy in person. However I have seen the way he treats other people I like and respect, and I can no longer ignore that.

[D-Sub]

well said, Jack

heh...I kinda like the drunks that stand on the barstools tho

;)

[mirror70]

Looks like I missed some fun threads :)

John - your comment about using a real name and accountability is dead-on. When I used to operate a couple of forums on CompuServe, everybody was vastly more civil when required to post using their real names. The difference was night and day.

The anonymity of the internet brings out the belligerent arse-hole in everyone.

[fin]

Sorry for the delay, I have been riveted to the recent stage of the Tour De France. Is anyone else watching the tour?

Becca,

As the other guys mentioned, huge welcome to the site and your input is always appreciated. However, I would suggest asking a few questions and getting some facts before making broad statements about Bomber like “one more blow to freedom of speech”. Are you sure you know all the facts?

Here is the scoop: the current banning of a member here at BOL has little to do with censorship. Yes, this member has pushed the limits of what is deemed appropriate but over-all has been accepted and tolerated. This member was banned recently for specifically breaking forum rules, posing under false names for malicious intent, posting under names to impersonate other members (including moderators), and other various “not so cool” actions on their part directed personally at BOL members, administrators, and owners. Believe me when I tell you, unless you are on BOL 24 hours a day and refreshing on the minute you only see a small percent of what this person does.

Now as far as censorship goes you will not meet a bigger advocate for free speach (edit: thanks D-Sub :p ) then myself. And my goal with the BOL forum was to allow this to its fullest extent. If you ask the other moderators here you will find I am usually the guy who says “let it roll”. However, as the years have gone by I have come to realize that in order to have a functional, effective, and ongoing conversation; you have to tell someone to behave now and then. Jack’s analogy of the BOL Forum being a tavern is dead on. The owner of this tavern has to make sure that everyone has a good time and are allowed to talk about what they like. But at the same time making sure someone does not cross the line, act like an idiot, and cause people to leave the tavern. Left unchecked, you have an empty tavern with one drunken guy screaming at the top of his lungs (and maybe Jack in the corner arguing about centrifugal force, but that is another matter). Some days this line is easy to see other times not so clear.

That being said let me inform you to a few other facts. For the first 4 years of BOL forum I deleted maybe 1 or 2 threads and no one was banned. In the past year we have deleted maybe half dozen threads (after MUCH debate among the admins) and banned one user for 24 hrs until they cooled down. One other interesting fact is all the above actions where the result of 2 to 3 individuals out of the 1118 registered members we currently have. So if you have visions of me and the other administrators slashing and burning threads every day and banning users we just don’t like, you are mistaken.

Also, we do rely on members letting us know when there is a thread that they do not like or find offensive. Not to say we will immediately delete that thread but if we get 20+ users stating this then you bet, we’ll take a good hard look at it.

Hope this takes care of you concerns with where we stand here at Bomber. We totally look forward to more of your participation and if you have any questions or issues just e-mail myself or the other admins here and we’ll take care of it.

[D-Sub]

Now as far as censorship goes you will not meet a bigger advocate for it then myself.

heh. I love it when typos work out so ironically beautiful

[fin]

Derrrrrrr.......:D

[rekre8r]

As a mostly silent member of the bomberonline "family" I agree with fin. Privately owned and privately controlled, his site, his decision and IMHO extremely well run. Sometimes the posts go in directions that make me wonder but I feel that the moderators do an excellent job of keeping us all on track. Sometime I hope to carve turns w/ Jack as his posts almost alway make me think. Hey it's a private forum for us all to enjoy and when someone does not want to play by the rules vote them off the island.

[Baka Dasai]

I'm sure "Becca" is sitting back having a good laugh about this thread. "She" has really sucked you guys right in.

Has it occurred to the moderators just how impossible it is to ban somebody from the site? New email addresses are virtually unlimited, and an IP ban is ineffective as the IP address can be masked by a proxy.


Originally posted by swt
The latest little fracas on BOL seems to have established an undeniable link between snowboarding and academia.

<i>University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small.</i> -- Henry Kissinger

Same politics. Same stakes.

You got it. It's all a storm in a teacup. I feel stupid for posting this and thereby adding to the whole thing.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Baka Dasai
I'm sure "Becca" is sitting back having a good laugh about this thread. "She" has really sucked you guys right in.


I have emailed with Becca personally, and I would be extremely surprised if she is not genuine.

[becca]

Regarding the sudden concern about real names, mine is in fact Becca, generally short for Rebecca.

As for my gender, given BOL's family, I mean pub, atmosphere I won't post the pics that would categorically prove that I am in fact a "she." (We did have fun taking them though!)

[Ghostrider]

um..hi,
My name is Bill Hartman. I'm addicted to snowboarding. I've been a rider for 9 years. It's been 4 months since I last carved a turn.

[mirror70]

As for my gender, given BOL's family, I mean pub, atmosphere I won't post the pics that would categorically prove that I am in fact a "she." (We did have fun taking them though!)

Given the pub atmosphere, I could post some pics that would categorically confuse whether or not I am in fact a "she." Then again, Jack did seem to say that we should all avoid being the drunk guy with the pitcher :) It was a fun night though... :eek:

[terror]

gone

[Aisling]

Originally posted by terror
BOL just isn't fun anymore. Okay, CMC broke the rules, but BJ isn't very much fun either. There used to be some interesting discussions at this place, but no more. Posturing and bad advice, and now, this whole "family site" thing. It seems to me like Bobs' pissed at CMC, and so the whole thing is gone, and CMC. I used to read this just for Maciek, CMC, and CF. Maciek always had a different take on things(I'm being polite), CMC used to give great advice, but I think he got sick of the posturing(can't speak for ya man, just my take on it), and CF. I've defended that guy publically. He had great points, he made me think, and he liked Irish whiskey. Helluva guy in my book. Anyway, I agree with what Becca is saying. I know, CMC broke the rules, but they're are some questionable avatars, and the conversation is sometimes filled with inuendo(Aisling and Marilyn Cambers). So, what's this about? Censorship? BJ v. CMC? Decency? I might reply to stuff in this thread, but I'll probably just keep lurking, ya know, for deals and such.............


uh, yeah... cause WOMEN are the only ones on here who post with innuendo. give me a break.
i like irish whiskey too, am i a better person now?

:p

[terror]

[gone

[Ghostrider]

HA HA!

The next thread to be censored is the thread ABOUT censorship...
oh man..thats sweet..

[Aisling]

wow. family values strike again.
are you trying to cause a commotion here for some reason?
i thought part of the point of this conversation was that personal attacks aren't necessary on here.
if this is a pub, consider yourself slapped for not only your verbal ineptitude, but your rude behaviour.

[terror]

gone

[terror]

gone

[Aisling]

Ok, your apology is accepted. ;)
The link is my shameless plug for my show, as is mentioned in said thread. I don't think you will be banned, so don't worry about it.
Can't we all just get along?
LOL

[Ghostrider]

Ok...in defense of...well everybody...and to maybe save Jack the energy of banning people in the morning, as well as maybe kill this rather stupid argument thread...
Did anybody actually read the rules for the forum???
It doesnt say a word about being "family friendly"

All it says is be nice to people...thats about it.

[terror]

gone

[Aisling]

I have even changed my sig for a more family friendly site

;)

[terror]

gone

[Dan]

Originally posted by becca
Likewise, have you noticed that some users’ avatars are distasteful too?


Hey, if you knew what I looked like under the face paint, you'd thank me for using this pic as my avatar!

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by terror
I used to read this just for Maciek, CMC, and CF.

then you've come to the wrong establishment.

[terror]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
then you've come to the wrong establishment.

apparently I have. I'm gone.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Ok...in defense of...well everybody...and to maybe save Jack the energy of banning people in the morning, as well as maybe kill this rather stupid argument thread...
Did anybody actually read the rules for the forum???
It doesnt say a word about being "family friendly"

All it says is be nice to people...thats about it.

True dat. And I can't ban anybody. Like I said, this place is like a resort bar during apres-ski. Catering to adults, but all ages are alowed.

Ash, you can have the big-O in your sig! (or in your car, your office, an elevator... whatever floats yer boat)

[quest4powder]

...
________
Digital Scales (http://www.vaporshop.com/scales)

[D-Sub]

ban him!

[Aisling]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud
Ash, you can have the big-O in your sig! (or in your car, your office, an elevator... whatever floats yer boat)


reallllllly? oh i'm so happy i could....
um... hmm... help me out here.

;)

lol

[Bordy]

I have been banned for 24 hours......

What ever.. All it did was reduce my want to contribute. When I could not post how I felt but could be flamed freely.

Shame, like my self a group of you have forced a rider with some real talent to the point of snapping..

Its very hard to keep your cool on a site were anyone can and does TYPE smack.

I too stopped posting. I know what I bring to the table and choose not to because of rebuttals and flaming by less experienced riders.

Have you ever put yourself into the other guy’s shoes?

Fin him self sent me some e-mail with the bar comparisons.

As a long time bar manager I have to disagree. At a bar no one knows, how you ride also, but people tend to have more faith in one another face to face. It is also much easier to interpret any verbal communication when the orator is there to present the info. Here on the forum the orator is forced to be a writer, and try to persuade the reader. This is not an easy skill. And when being attacked or flamed on this forum it is very difficult to maintain ones writing skills. Also the guy on the stool may be the coolest guy in town. But enough people have given him smack that night so he loses it.

Here it is very easy for a few people who have some writing skills to come down on others based on theory or hearsay.

While the author feels they are interjecting valid points based on theory, the experienced rider is usually the one who gets flamed and insulted. Of course they take it personally it is as though you have insulted there riding. Some of us don’t take lightly to being insulted about riding or experience when it is what we have chosen as a life style.

It maybe hard for anyone to realize the amount of frustration caused by the free posting kooks on the site who think they know. But really have no idea.

I understand CMC frustration at the site, in general, and can understand his anger toward the moderators, Fin included.

When the site went to the new format we were all surprised at the editing of swears and felt is may be a deterrent to the CF’s style of insulting and flaming. Now people are questioning the content as well?

I have never heard family site until BJ brought it up? But now that it is the trend BOL chooses to follow I am curious to what level it will be enforced? I have seen many comments that are outside the PG-13 rating Jack mentions.

I hope CMC is welcomed back to the site because in my opinion he was one of the true riders that gave this site some creditability.

His advise and tips had true conviction from a experienced every day rider with the ability to back up his forward and poignant statement.

As a long time reader and a retired frustrated poster, it is indeed unfortunate this board has lost a talented rider-poster.

The board is again in the hands of the Moderators and Fin.

Jake Carpenter once said to me. “The sport has never been in my hands only in my riders hearts”.

You figure it out.

Also Bob I cant understand how

“I’m angry that he has forced us to publicly disclose the larger issues, but this is his choice.”

Your not the guy who got banned from a ‘public, opps sorry its now considered private’ forum.

“It's purely about Curt doing damage to the sport. Jack and Fin are too nice to say it as they are trying to walk a sensitive line, and I appreciate this, but in their silence, the full story is not revealed and it never will be as it is between the moderators and Curt. You will have to understand that there were MANY long-standing issues both on BOL and off that played into this decision.”

Curt has not done any damage to the sport, I am appalled that you would indicate so.

The positive aspect of this forum is the ability to share. Curt has done a lot of sharing here. Much more honestly then most posters and Moderator including yourself have been open enough to do. While it is very nice of you to “Share” your obvious distain for Curt via the inference that Jack and Fin are being “sensitive” and there were other “issues on and off BOL”. It just seems to me as though any guy who might not fit into the “BOL mold” has to go. Is this an open forum or a cool guy club?

P.S. Thanks for the harbooter.com link Fin, its still un-der construction so it’s still un-censored any one can come yell at me there!

[fin]

Hello Bordy,

Great to have you back! I figured a debate like this would be just the thing to pull you out of the wood-work ;)

As a long time bar drinker your description of how one communicates with others in bars is not relevant to the point here. We ALL understand that you have a personal issue with being flamed but the real debate here is not flaming but how you control that flaming. So take one more step back on that bar owner analogy, when you see two guys in your bar getting heated in there discussion and a fight might erupt or does erupt, what do you do? If a guy has taken off his pants and is dancing on tables, what do you do? This is not about taking sides or who is right or wrong it is about keeping the peace in this establishment we call the forum. Does not matter if he is “the cool guy” or not, he acts like an ass, he gets ask to leave.

‘public, opps sorry its now considered private’ forum

As much as you might think otherwise, this is a public forum. Anyone can participate and we do not ask for a legitimate e-mail to post (will probably change soon). However, just like any public place, act like a butt-head or break the rules and you might get asked to leave. This applies to everyone, no one is singled out.

It just seems to me as though any guy who might not fit into the “BOL mold” has to go.

My apologies here, I hoped I had covered this in my previous post. Let me restate this more clearly:

The member recently banned from the BOL forum was done solely on the fact they broke the rules multiple times and after multiple warnings. Not because we like or dislike him, not because we like or dislike his carving style, and certainly not because he does not fit the mold. He broke the rules and guidelines of this forum.

I hope this clarifies this.

Leroy Eldridge Cleaver said it best: “If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem”. Bordy, you have a great background in plate riding and are certainly passionate about the sport however, give us some constructive feedback on how to make this site better. All we tend to hear from you is the negative stuff. Come on man, cheer up!

[Shred Gruumer]

Mussed of missed some ting good while I was gone,, can I see the thread?

I hate dis topic,, It offends me,, so you should ban it! hmmm kinda like work here,, if HR says if its offends just one person you can't do it! Man,, Its farfrum bieng sensored. Me I wish it was an R forum,, you should see what kids 2 day are doing,, man I wish I was young,again they didn't have hooters like dat ,, must be in the hamburgers or baseballs they eat.

I poop on you! take dat!,, oh no not in da pants! dang now da bladder too,, ah Fluckenshlichter!

No point,, just drunk at the bar minding my own business,, its 1:00am and time to lower my standards! oh man that girl over there with the three eyes is hot..wow she's got three of everything! cool!

rrtighth said shremdrd, hick!

[Art]

I guess when it comes to writing, nobody can hold a battle-lantern up to Shred......;)

[Shred Gruumer]

Schtill verking on it hick! mmmm,, Wow she';s got four uv everthing now.. wait thats her twin,,cool two of em..

Wrsitess smee sad Shrerrerd! hick!:confused:

[NateW]

The way I see it, Fin has two options:

1) Obnoxious people get booted, or
2) The site gets more obnoxious over time

And CMC had two options:

1) Play nice and stick around, or
2) annoy the host and get booted

I'm bummed that CMC chose option 2, but I'm glad that Fin chose option 1.

All this crap about free speech is, well, crap. Fin runs this joint, we can stay or go, he can choose who gets in. Don't pee on his couch, other people use it too.