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Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 10:03 AM
A number of people are asking what this is about, so, here are a few thousand words on that:

(click to enlarge)

Traditional nose:
<a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_01.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_01.JPG" width="600"></a>

Decambered nose:
<a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_03.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_03.JPG" width="600"></a>

Traditional nose, middle of board flat on ground:
<a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_02.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_02.JPG" width="600"></a>

Decambered nose, middle of board flat on ground:
<a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_04.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_04.JPG" width="600"></a>

What I believe the decambered nose does, is it becomes part of the sidecut when the board is tilted on edge. It works <i>with</i> the sidecut instead of against it. The upward curve of the nose more closely matches the curve of the sidecut and the shape the board assumes when the whole thing is decambered in a carve.

As you can see in this picture, when a board is carving, the nose is engaged in the snow <i>well past</i> the end of the so-called "running length" of the board:

http://www.jmphotocraft.com/profile/t1.jpg

Therefore the upturn of the nose becomes an active part of the sidecut and an active participant in the carve. A traditional nose shape that curves up abruptly will "plow" through the snow because it is trying to turn along the upward curve of the nose - a much tighter arc than the rest of the board. A low, decambered nose will "slice" through the snow better because its curve is more inline with the sidecut.

The decambered nose does not result in a huge reduction in effective edge length, because the board is still engaged in the snow along most of its length as we can see here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=16812&stc=1&d=1237861952
However the nose is now "unloaded" and not fighting the sidecut or the forward movement of the board.

Also the decambered nose helps with bumps and imperfections in the snow surface. Any impact to the nose of the board as it is carving will be more abrupt with a traditional nose, because the nose upturn is more vertical and curves up at a tighter radius. The nose has to climb up over the obstacle more quickly, in a shorter length of board travel. This creates a shockwave that travels down the board, compromising edge hold and possibly upsetting the rider. You can imagine an extreme example of a nose that quickly curved up to be perpendicular to the board - something like that could actually stop the board in its tracks. The decambered nose spreads the impact out more gradually, and the whole front of the board has more time to deflect more gently.

tex1230
March 27th, 2009, 10:11 AM
nice work

Surf Quebec
March 27th, 2009, 10:18 AM
Thanks

Zone
March 27th, 2009, 10:29 AM
Just a bit of fun here, these were 2001-2002 early Swoard days, when the nose and flex of the Swoards were thought to be ridiculous. What's out of fashion will come around again.

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/02html/p08_02.html
http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/01html/j3_01.html
http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/01html/j7_01.html

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 10:31 AM
http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/01html/j3_01.html

That is one good looking outfit!! :D

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 10:33 AM
Here is a picture of the whole board so you can see how the decambered nose relates to the camber of the rest of the board:

<a href="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_05.JPG" target="top"><img src="http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_05.JPG" width="600"></a>

Zone
March 27th, 2009, 10:35 AM
That is one good looking outfit!! :D

Would go well with these...
http://www.boardzone.com/snow/shop/snowboard-bindings/burton/cartel-est-magenta-madness-2009/index.cfm

:lol::lol:

PS: 50% off everything in that store right now!

Dave ESPI
March 27th, 2009, 10:56 AM
in other words, the nose is not as steep of an angle for the up turn....

A lot of powder boards had long progressive noses like this. The only concern is the board becoming a catapult if the front gets too weighted and sinks deep in snow and jams to a stop..... "BOINNGG !"

kinda like riding switch... and catching your tail LOL.

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 11:10 AM
By the way, those hardwood planks are 2.25"/5.7cm wide.

Gecko
March 27th, 2009, 11:10 AM
Thank you Jack that 1000 words explained it in perfect detail for me:biggthump

carvedog
March 27th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Good blog. :biggthump

KingCrimson
March 27th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Ignore the noses, look at the focus and DOF in those pictures! :eek:

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 11:25 AM
Ignore the noses, look at the focus and DOF in those pictures! :eek:

1D-IIn + 24-70/2.8L, baby. Like going fishing with a howitzer.

powdahbonz
March 27th, 2009, 11:39 AM
is this the mystery board-what is this?
Here is a picture of the whole board so you can see how the decambered nose relates to the camber of the rest of the board:

http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_05.JPG (http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_05.JPG)

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 11:51 AM
is this the mystery board-what is this?

Coiler NSR 185. I'm borrowing it from bschurman, the guy in blue in the pic.

160Z won't be tested until next season.

Steph
March 27th, 2009, 12:01 PM
The only concern is the board becoming a catapult if the front gets too weighted and sinks deep in snow and jams to a stop..... "BOINNGG !"

This is what I cannot get past here (I realize that trying is believing). Haven't demo'd any new boards in a while, but I'm thinking of purchasing something for next season. I know that I put a lot of pressure on the nose of the boards that I ride, and would be worried about burying it with a board such as a Schtubby or NSR. I also see the people that are riding these decks and can't imagine that would be the case for me, if they are not. True???

BlueB
March 27th, 2009, 12:06 PM
Decambered nose tends to float back to surface. As well gradual raise low long nose of pow board.

philfell
March 27th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Good write up Jack. I'm sure it helped a lot of people here understand the concept better.

pokkis
March 27th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Bruce has made nice "ladies" version of 168 NSR for my wife, and it looks that she has now new fafourite board. She is very happy with it, no problems with nose or with multi radius.

Mike T
March 27th, 2009, 12:54 PM
I know that I put a lot of pressure on the nose of the boards that I ride, and would be worried about burying it with a board such as a Schtubby or NSR.

I find the decambered noses are harder to bury. Granted, I'm not riding much else these days - but when I go to anything else I feel like I'm about to bury the *those*.

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 12:58 PM
This is what I cannot get past here (I realize that trying is believing). Haven't demo'd any new boards in a while, but I'm thinking of purchasing something for next season. I know that I put a lot of pressure on the nose of the boards that I ride, and would be worried about burying it with a board such as a Schtubby or NSR. I also see the people that are riding these decks and can't imagine that would be the case for me, if they are not. True???

When the board is up on edge, the upturn actually has little to do with terrain clearance. You could theoretically carve a board with NO upturn, just a flat, rounded nose. But it would catch between turns when the board is flat on the ground!

Steph
March 27th, 2009, 01:17 PM
Thanks Jack and Bola! Ok, makes total sense now. It sure would be nice to not have to work so damn hard all the time:lol:

pokkis
March 27th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Steph, try to find one of those "smaller" NSR's there for test ride, i think you will love it.

Surf Quebec
March 27th, 2009, 01:33 PM
What NSR means ?

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 01:35 PM
What NSR means ?

New School Race.

Bruce, what's my commission up to? ;)

GeoffV
March 27th, 2009, 01:36 PM
Thanks Jack and Bola! Ok, makes total sense now. It sure would be nice to not have to work so damn hard all the time:lol:

Steph it took me 4 days on my new Coiler to figure out I was working the board to hard and needed to just let the board do it's thing. :rolleyes:
Now on the flip side I have difficulty riding my 58 Madd because I'm not working it hard enough:mad:

GeoffV
March 27th, 2009, 01:39 PM
New School Race.

Bruce, what's my commission up to? ;)

Hey if anybody should get comp'd it should be Schurman or Shred.

Bens' been on Coilers for years and we are just now figuring it out.

queequeg
March 27th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Jack,

The second larger Pic of your stick on the wood floor...
If you put your weight on those bindings while it is there on the floor does
it lift the nose higher off the floor?
I was told that Burton is doing this to one of the supermodels on both the tail and the nose?
also this is interesting:
If I put my original Performer Elite 150 on a hard flat surface unweighted
it is flat under the feet and then tapers up from there in both directions
Thanks :)

Of course - because the shape of the nose will remain static while your weight will flatten the camber on the rest of the board. So when you flatten the center of the board, it will increase the angle of initiation of the nose's upturn when measured from the floor. This will happen with an old-school nose too, but to a much lesser extent. Think of the contact point between the (cambered) board and the floor near the nose as a fulcrum, and the center of the board as a lever. When you bear down on the lever, the remaining length on the other side of the fulcrum will rise accordingly.

Otherwise: burton isn't doing anything special here ... sounds like marketing bs to me ... step on the center of any cambered board with an upturned nose or tail, and they will rise. This is basic physics, and a phenomenon that is common to all (cambered) snowboards. Of course, the longer and flatter the de-cambered nose is (in addition the the amount of camber the board has), the greater the effect will be ... so perhaps that is what is meant: magnification of an existing effect.

ptran11
March 27th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Great work Jack! Should this be sticky'd or put in an article on BOL?

Jack Michaud
March 27th, 2009, 02:45 PM
If you put your weight on those bindings while it is there on the floor does
it lift the nose higher off the floor?

That's what I did in the pictures marked "middle of board flat on ground". Camera on timer, me standing on board.


Great work Jack! Should this be sticky'd or put in an article on BOL?

It would probably be helpful to put this in the articles.

philfell
March 27th, 2009, 03:02 PM
One thing I'd like to add. On why these boards ride better then a traditional nose profile.

Notice on Jacks pics of the decambered nose, especially the one where he is standing in the middle of the board. See how smooth and gradual the shape of the nose is it kind of just blends past the contact point of the effective edge and sidecut.

Now look at the MADD, see how abrupt the raduis is from where the side cut ends to the tip of the board.

Think about riding in packed powder snow. It is common to have your board dig in an inch into the snow. When the board is burried this far in the snow an old school nose profile will want to catch and make the arc tighter. So builders had to make the nose of the board stiffer so it wouldn't catch and try to force a tighter turn. This is what most people falsley call "folding the nose". The nose profile radius actually grabs the snow and forces the board to dig in more or to hook up on a super tight arc that throws the rider over the bars.

With a decambered nose, when the board digs into the snow it does not want to tighten the turn. So builder can now make the boards softer and more forgivable without comprimising ridability.

Michael Pukas
March 27th, 2009, 03:18 PM
You guys have to realize that the idea of rocker has been around for quite a while (years) in the free-ski and soft-board snowboard world. Not sure where it first came from, but I've heard Jonny Mosely talk about Shane McConkey (RIP brother) taking the idea f/ water skis years ago.

What I think surprised most people is that rocker actually works very well for carving boards. Being that it was originally conceived and built for powder skis, why would it work for carving boards? Seems like the exact opposite of what we want doesn't it? Exactly as Jack has stated - allows the nose to hook up better and ride over rough stuff w/out getting jolted.

Jack - spend some more time on that board and then let us know if you want to revise it all. I've been out of the carving world for 6 years, and when I first rode a rockered metal board after 2 turns I said this was the best board I've ever riden. Period. So I do understand what a revelation it is.

Here's a diagram f/ Never Summer's website showing how they take the idea of combining camber and rocker to a whole new level. Now would this I wonder work on a carving board? Rocker, camber, construction and shape technologies are going to make leaps and bounds in the next couple years in the free-ski and board world. We have a lot more catching up to do... mpp

utahcarver
March 27th, 2009, 03:27 PM
As to rocker for boards, that would probably first go to surfboard design. Next, Milovich used rocker on Wintersticks in the '70s. Some skateboards have had rocker over the years, too. My first Sims snowboard was rockered (1700 Ultimate Powder). What's old is new.

Mark

Hans
March 27th, 2009, 03:33 PM
but Jack just want to enlighten some very old technik here for guys/girls that didn't know of this. Thanks Jack for making it clear to us with that nice pics. That rockered and decambered nose/baord has been used and is still being used for years in the (wave) surf and (wave)windsurf world where I came from (20 years ago and before that) before I ever laid hands on a snowboard. Nice to see that it also has its benefits in the alpine snowboard world/freecarve world for us recreational carvers now :biggthump I love my decambered Tinkie. Setting in a turn has never been that easy.

ohiomoto
March 27th, 2009, 06:33 PM
http://www.lib-tech.com/banana/index.html

Erik J
March 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Jack - thanks for this thread. Reading this makes me want to buy a new board. Awesome job... as always.

crazyTKDsquirrel
March 27th, 2009, 09:06 PM
http://www.lib-tech.com/banana/index.html
lol. More like reverse camber :freak3:
I've seen a lot of those banana skates around...two of my park monkey friends ride one. I should borrow one and test their carving abilities :rolleyes: :D

ETA: I just thought this was funny...a bit about their magne-traction stuff:
Take a file and round your edges so they don't hang up on the rails, boxes, or ledges. Then go ride everywhere!
:lol:

ohiomoto
March 27th, 2009, 09:07 PM
I think I bent the tip on my board several years ago, but forgot about it. Does that mean I'm a step ahead of you guys? :)

Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see this with high end skis? You would think that with the amount of development that goes into race skis they would be ahead of the curve on this stuff. Of course the race skis are governed by the FIS.

ohiomoto
March 27th, 2009, 09:09 PM
lol. More like reverse camber :freak3:
I've seen a lot of those banana skates around...two of my park monkey friends ride one. I should borrow one and test their carving abilities :rolleyes: :DI've been told they carve quite well. Hard to believe, but that's the word. I'll try to snag a demo on one next season.

crazyTKDsquirrel
March 27th, 2009, 09:15 PM
I wonder how that wavy edge will change things, if at all. Now I'm wanting to try one.

ohiomoto
March 27th, 2009, 09:29 PM
That edge is weird too. Again, if it's so great, why has the ski industry not picked up on it??

Seems like they are trying to create a marketing wave for themselves to ride and it's working. I would have never even looked twice at the one I saw, but it was so F'ed up I couldn't not take a closer look.

BlueB
March 27th, 2009, 09:35 PM
Our friend Rod "Softbooter" has two of these. He loved the first one so much that he had to buy a backup too. He doesn't ride his Prior AMF any more. He can carve it pretty well on green runs... but... on the day when my the pics in my avatar were shot, on nice steep black run, all he could do was skid. Conditions were nice hard pack bordering hero.

bobdea
March 27th, 2009, 10:45 PM
I think I bent the tip on my board several years ago, but forgot about it. Does that mean I'm a step ahead of you guys? :)

Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see this with high end skis? You would think that with the amount of development that goes into race skis they would be ahead of the curve on this stuff. Of course the race skis are governed by the FIS.

look at high end skis before you make these comments

if you look closely, the tips of high end skis and kesslers have a some similarities

bobdea
March 27th, 2009, 10:50 PM
That edge is weird too. Again, if it's so great, why has the ski industry not picked up on it??

Seems like they are trying to create a marketing wave for themselves to ride and it's working. I would have never even looked twice at the one I saw, but it was so F'ed up I couldn't not take a closer look.

yes and no, magnetraction DOES work according to people who ride the boards.
rocker, it DOES work in the park.

mervin has always done thing their own way, sometime for the worse like their capped boards with the ABS spacer that would delam but other times they do things that lead market like now with the rocker boards.

NateW
March 27th, 2009, 11:55 PM
Thanks for the pics!

Where is the widest point on the nose of the NSR? Is it about even with the tip of the leaf in the graphics?

ohiomoto
March 28th, 2009, 04:24 AM
look at high end skis before you make these comments

if you look closely, the tips of high end skis and kesslers have a some similaritiesWhat high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?

BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up.

bobdea
March 28th, 2009, 08:41 AM
What high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?

BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up.

older stuff, even from the 90s had interesting geometry up front.

park skis also sometimes nose rise that starts way back, mot nearly as pronounced as boards but I suspect the same thing is going on.
a couple skis in the fischer line are like this currently.
Head's park skis I need to look at more closely, they have a gentle rise as well.

the first time I heard anything about altered nose geometry was in the 90s, not rocker as we call it but seems like it was acomplishing the same thing.
it was explained by a volkl rep as that they made the rise of the tip as such that it was more gradual and they modified the sidecut in that part of the ski. the idea was to make the ski more smooth turning in varried conditions like bashing through crud.

Also, blended radius boards and skis have been around for a long time. maybe not in this implementation but this is certainly not a new idea. more of a perfection of it. IMO making something work is more important than coming up with it first.

that said, rocker along has been around in various forms in the ski industry for a long time as well.

philfell
March 28th, 2009, 09:36 AM
What high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?

BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up.

Put your race stock skies base to base, use a strap to tie them together in the middle so the bases are actually touching and I'm sure you'll see that you can start to see space between the bases far before where you would consider the actual "tip".

BlueB
March 28th, 2009, 09:45 AM
I would say all of the modern skis have widest poit of sidecut ahead of base contact point, even when just sitting on the floor unloaded. Dynastar had this quite exagerated for at least 6-7 years.

Mattias112
March 28th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Just want to share my experience with you:)

Facts: Skis and boards made for high speeds do not have decambered noses becase it will make them less stable att high speed. High speed needs long contactsurface and low noses to avoid that air gets under the nose.
Note that the noses have a very smooth low uplift.
I have been riding A LOT of boards the last 15 years. And despite that boards are a lot better now, there are some things that will not change:
A sharp uplift will make the boards dig in soft conditions. Also if the board has a sharp turn in the noseshape(outline of the nose) at the end of the running length it will also dig ...
A elliptic radius with steep radius at nose and shallow in the middle will have poor edgegrip in harder conditions in higher speeds especially in a laydown turn. But the concept works great in the pipe and park. Here you want a board that reacts very quickly but you are not so concerned about edgegrip in a laydown turn...
But as always the construction and flex of the board is just as important(if not more so) than the shape of the nose and sidecut...
Have a nice day:biggthump

Jack Michaud
March 28th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Facts: Skis and boards made for high speeds do not have decambered noses becase it will make them less stable att high speed.

:lurk:

KingCrimson
March 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Just want to share my experience with you:)

Facts: Skis and boards made for high speeds do not have decambered noses becase it will make them less stable att high speed. High speed needs long contactsurface and low noses to avoid that air gets under the nose.
Note that the noses have a very smooth low uplift.

That seems to contradict itself.:confused: Decambered noses are relatively low, and very smooth in the way they rise.

Mattias112
March 28th, 2009, 12:40 PM
That seems to contradict itself.:confused: Decambered noses are relatively low, and very smooth in the way they rise.

Well my guess was that to call a nose decambered it will have a long section above the snow in a straight line? Otherwise it would just be a low nose:confused:

KingCrimson
March 28th, 2009, 01:12 PM
Look at the NSR vs. the Madd, not a great example since the Madd is a little, oldschool board, but ultimately the NSR has a lower nose even when decambered.

Gecko
March 28th, 2009, 01:20 PM
Look at the NSR vs. the Madd, not a great example since the Madd is a little, oldschool board, but ultimately the NSR has a lower nose even when decambered.

just an FYI Jack has a 180MADD not the more just the more common small ones

dave29
March 28th, 2009, 02:16 PM
Jack nice job. Super informative and easy to understand. THANKS!!!:biggthump

Bruce Varsava
March 28th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Now I get it, thanks Jack, as always very informative
If you don't think that Jack can rip
You don't know jack:biggthump

dave29
March 28th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Jack I noticed toelift on your front binding. How do you like it(pros and cons)?

tex1230
March 28th, 2009, 04:01 PM
I think Mattias is talking about speed skis - if you don't need to turn, he is correct.I wouldn't want a roockered nose at 120mph.

Jack Michaud
March 28th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Look at the NSR vs. the Madd, not a great example since the Madd is a little, oldschool board, but ultimately the NSR has a lower nose even when decambered.

No, the boards in the photos are a Madd 180 and Coiler NSR 185.

TheTruth
March 28th, 2009, 04:31 PM
I would say all of the modern skis have widest poit of sidecut ahead of base contact point, even when just sitting on the floor unloaded. Dynastar had this quite exagerated for at least 6-7 years.

Race ski design has definitely changed over the past 4-5 years. I just compared my newest race stock GS skis (2009 Dynastar WC GS) to a 8 year old pair of GS skis (Atomic 10.22). The Dynastar is the full blown hand made, matched flex race stock (the good stuff). When placed on a flat surface, there is no camber in the ski--it sits flat in the middle by its own weight. The widest part of the sidecut is well ahead of where the front of the ski contacts the surface, and the contact point is several cm rearward of where the older Atomic makes contact. The turn radius is blended along the length and listed only as "meeting FIS specs" (minimum of 27M)

The Atomic 10.22, in spite of being 8 years old, has over 1/2 cm upward camber at the center when sitting on a flat surface, and the forward contact point is right where the tip curves up. The turn radius is clearly listed as 22M.

No comparison in the way they ski. In spite on the Dynastar being a much "straighter" ski, it is much easier to turn, vary the turn shape, and release a turn at will. The older Atomic seems "locked" into a single radius turn, and will plow the tip into the snow if you try to tighten up the turn.

I mostly ski, but I also have an alpine board that I enjoy riding to mix things up and I have found this thread very interesting.

ohiomoto
March 28th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I'll have to take a look at my skis I guess. I have two pair of SLX and one GSX. All are race stock and 3-4 years old. I know they do lay "flat" under their weight (with really heavy bindings on them) but never noticed a decambered nose. I know a few local reps, but never really talked about the specifics when I run into them.

My original point was that if a decambered nose is so great for racing applications, you would think the ski racing community would be all over it. Maybe they are and I never noticed?

KingCrimson
March 28th, 2009, 06:15 PM
No, the boards in the photos are a Madd 180 and Coiler NSR 185.

Bahhumbug thought it was a 170. Somewhat o/t, is there a difference in the nose profile?

powdahbonz
March 28th, 2009, 06:38 PM
After watching Jack ride this NSR today, I would disagree with the lack of stability at speed. He was ripping on it, through slop and spring mashed snow. First time I ever saw him ride and I could not keep up. I felt pretty good about my riding last week. Today, I felt like I have alot of work to do. Nice turns Jack.
:lurk:

lowrider
March 28th, 2009, 07:27 PM
A single camber board will pressure the nose of the board as it is loaded carving a turn. Will a double camber board create a rocker effect on the nose since the flattening of the camber is acting as if on two fulcrum points causing the nose to rise???:confused::confused:

bobdea
March 28th, 2009, 07:40 PM
A single camber board will pressure the nose of the board as it is loaded carving a turn. Will a double camber board create a rocker effect on the nose since the flattening of the camber is acting as if on two fulcrum points causing the nose to rise???:confused::confused:

that question makes my head hurt

Bobby Buggs
March 28th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Old or new? to me it does not matter, All I know is it works:biggthump
Steph, you will totally Rip on it

ohiomoto
March 28th, 2009, 08:10 PM
I was wrong! I never noticed, but the widest point of the sidecut on all of my skis are on what would be considered the "tip" on the curled up portion. I'm talking way up there! Probably 1/3 of the way up the radius. I never noticed this before.


Put your race stock skies base to base, use a strap to tie them together in the middle so the bases are actually touching and I'm sure you'll see that you can start to see space between the bases far before where you would consider the actual "tip". Actually no. My tips placed base to base look "normal" They make contact right around the point at which the tips curl up at the nose. They look nothing like the pictures Jack posted here. BUT, the widest point of the sidecut is way ahead of the contact point.

I wouldn't call it decambered because the base of the ski looks "normal", but the widest point is way ahead of the contact point of the base so I guess you could argue that it's decamberd.

I'll go eat crow now. :(

BlueB
March 28th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Actually Elan pioneered this back in 80s. It was just a slight move of the widest point forward from where it traditionally was on straight skis, but noticeable.
If my old RC Omni Lite are still kicking around my auntie's place in Europe, I'll take few pics late this summer...

Jack Michaud
March 28th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Bahhumbug thought it was a 170. Somewhat o/t, is there a difference in the nose profile?

If anything, the 170's nose might be even more abrupt.


After watching Jack ride this NSR today, I would disagree with the lack of stability at speed. He was ripping on it, through slop and spring mashed snow. First time I ever saw him ride and I could not keep up. I felt pretty good about my riding last week. Today, I felt like I have alot of work to do. Nice turns Jack.

Great to meet you in person today. You've got a lot of potential there. Thanks for the compliments, but you should have seen that board killing it last weekend when conditions were firm. I'm not a fan of mashed potatoes over ice. Looks like our carving season is over unless there is another dump. Oh well!

Jack Michaud
March 28th, 2009, 10:35 PM
Now I get it, thanks Jack, as always very informative
If you don't think that Jack can rip
You don't know jack:biggthump

:lol: I love this place.


Jack I noticed toelift on your front binding. How do you like it(pros and cons)?

Love it. I recommend a balanced stance of equal front-foot-toe-lift and back-foot-heel-lift, with a little outward cant on the back foot. There's an article on this somewhere.

Mattias112
March 29th, 2009, 07:05 AM
I wouldn't call it decambered because the base of the ski looks "normal", but the widest point is way ahead of the contact point of the base so I guess you could argue that it's decamberd.


This is not what I call decambered either. This is not new at all but has been like this for years.
But to have decambered 1/4 of the total length of the board, that is another matter:) That will probably be a little unstable at speed... But as you sy it will also make the board easier to initiate the turn. If it is combined with a flexpattern to suit. But a soft nose and a really decambered nose? Not for me on my alpine board... But everybody likes it different:eek: So ride and be happy!

powdahbonz
March 29th, 2009, 07:54 AM
Never got comfortable-I really can't perform in mashed spuds and I washed out later on spillway and ate $hit-didn't notice until end of the day but think I picked up a 1st degree sep. on my right shoulder. I was trying hard to keep transitions smooth and felt like I couldn't keep board from chattering out on heels or toes. Power drove head and shoulders for an over the handle bars endo..guess I may have been loading the nose up.Least I know what the new board dims. will look like now for bruce and thanks for the advice on topsheet design-sfleck, email forth coming to you soon.





Great to meet you in person today. You've got a lot of potential there. Thanks for the compliments, but you should have seen that board killing it last weekend when conditions were firm. I'm not a fan of mashed potatoes over ice. Looks like our carving season is over unless there is another dump. Oh well!

TheTruth
March 29th, 2009, 08:17 AM
This is not what I call decambered either. This is not new at all but has been like this for years.
But to have decambered 1/4 of the total length of the board, that is another matter:) That will probably be a little unstable at speed... But as you sy it will also make the board easier to initiate the turn. If it is combined with a flexpattern to suit. But a soft nose and a really decambered nose? Not for me on my alpine board... But everybody likes it different:eek: So ride and be happy!

Right, the idea that the widest part of the sidecut is way up on the ski tip and off the snow has been around for a long time. This isn't new. What is different on my 2009 race stock Dynastars, is the lack of camber when sitting flat, and that the ski rises off the surface a few cm behind where the tip curves up. I'd call it "mini decamber" -- not as pronounced as a new school powder ski, not quite as pronounced as Jack's board--but it is there. Whatever Dynastar has done it works. These skis are the most stable, fast, yet turnable race stock GS skis I have ever been on. All the other WC GS skis have similar designs--less camber and no defined turn radius other than "meeting FIS minimum specs".

What is really interesting (and I'm curious how this applies to snowboard hardboots), is that you need a modern ski boot design to really get the performance out of these new race skis. For example, at the start of the season, I had a trusty pair of 2008 Lange RL11 plug boots. The RL11 shell design has been around in one form or another for 15 years. It was the standard that all other ski race boots were judged against. And it does not work with the newest race skis. Lange dumped the RL11 and now has the RL12, a design with a shorter cuff, more upright stance, and the hinge points moved way back. Nordica, Atomic, and Fischer came out with similar designs a few years ago, and have been eating Lange's lunch in racing. The new designs allow you to engage the greater tip sidecut NOW (like steeping on the gas pedal of a dragracer!!!), and then allow you to vary the turn shape along the rest of the ski length. My bootfitter warned me that I would never get full performance out of the new Dynastars with the geometry of the RL11 boot, and boy was he right.

So, my question is with all the advancement in alpine board design in the last few years, do we need new thought given to hardboot design? The DeeLuxe, Head, and UPZ design are very old, and by using their designs, are we getting the top performance out of our fancy new board designs?

dave29
March 29th, 2009, 09:12 AM
:lol: I love this place.



Love it. I recommend a balanced stance of equal front-foot-toe-lift and back-foot-heel-lift, with a little outward cant on the back foot. There's an article on this somewhere.


Thanks Jack.

Jack Michaud
March 29th, 2009, 01:37 PM
So, my question is with all the advancement in alpine board design in the last few years, do we need new thought given to hardboot design? The DeeLuxe, Head, and UPZ design are very old, and by using their designs, are we getting the top performance out of our fancy new board designs?

Try your RL12's on a new board and get back to us!

I've never been able to figure out why snowboard hardboots don't have a 0 forward lean setting.

philfell
March 29th, 2009, 01:38 PM
I thought I would post a few pics to go alone with Jack's these two pics are of a Black Toped Kessler built less than a month ago for a female world cup rider.

Pic #1-Board laying flat on the ground, no binding or weight on the board.

http://i41.tinypic.com/o6n3gz.jpg

Pic #2-Board is weighted to take the camber out so that the inbetween the bindings is on the ground.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2nuiqo6.jpg

colintkemp
March 29th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Phifell: This is a little OT, but what bindings/plates are on that Kessler? (The reason for my question: I'm curious about the camber in the photo of the board unweighted. It looks like my 185 w/ hangl.)

Thanks,
Colin

PS - Jack, thanks for this thread.

Jack Michaud
March 29th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Phifell: This is a little OT, but what bindings/plates are on that Kessler? (The reason for my question: I'm curious about the camber in the photo of the board unweighted. It looks like my 185 w/ hangl.)

Thanks,
Colin

PS - Jack, thanks for this thread.

My pleasure. By the way, can I cite your post in my upcoming master's thesis? It's entitled "People Don't Read". ;) ;) :p I kid, I kid. :D

philfell
March 29th, 2009, 02:11 PM
No bindings or plate on the board at the time of the pic.

colintkemp
March 29th, 2009, 02:11 PM
HA! You got me Jack. Missed the no binding comment indeed!

TheTruth
March 29th, 2009, 02:22 PM
Try your RL12's on a new board and get back to us!

I tried it already! However, my Lange RL12s are the 160 full race plug, and calling them mega-stiff is an understatement. Incredible ski race boot, but way too much for snowboarding. I was really worried I was going to snap the Kessler right in half! An experiment I do not recommend to be repeated unless you have a bottomless bank account for new boards!


I've never been able to figure out why snowboard hardboots don't have a 0 forward lean setting.

Agree with you on this one. For my tastes, all the hardboots out there have way too much forward lean. I always ride mine at the most upright position--front and back. Just seems like I can initiate a turn better that way.

Jack Michaud
March 29th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Thanks Phil. I am curious about how square Kessler noses are. I know, reduction of swing weight, maximization of running length, etc, but when the board is tilted up I would think the outline of the nose has a lot to do with terrain clearance. If so, wouldn't such a square nose be an issue in bumpy terrain?

philfell
March 29th, 2009, 02:35 PM
They are pushing it in my opinion as far as shape goes. I think the Black Pearls are too squared. But with the mounting position and current technique there isn't a ton of pressure on the nose so it dosen't bash into stuff, but rather tracks over things.

Have you taken a look closely at the coiler's tail? Is it's camber profile similar to the nose?

Jack Michaud
March 29th, 2009, 02:42 PM
Have you taken a look closely at the coiler's tail? Is it's camber profile similar to the nose?

I have, and no, there is a lot less "decamber" in the tail. You can sort of tell in this pic:

http://www.jmphotocraft.com/bomber/nose_decamber_05.JPG

I really don't think there would need to be as much, because the tail isn't impacting oncoming terrain like the nose.

philfell
March 29th, 2009, 03:15 PM
I hear what you are saying. I'll take a pic of the Kessler I'm working on this week tomorrow after riding. I haven't looked at the tail while it's on a flat surface, but eyeing down it there is some decamber in the tail, not nearly as much as the nose, but there is some.

bobdea
March 29th, 2009, 04:15 PM
flat noses


I read somewhere that the less nose you have the more you can dampen it.
I think it was on this very forum.

Bruce Varsava
March 29th, 2009, 04:16 PM
A reason to put the dacam on is also to make them more slide friendly. Once you get over 180 ish and have full camber with a decent stiffness they are beasts to slide. The amount done in the tail helps with that function of breaking the tail loose when needed. Back in the glass board day we just used lighter biax fabrics for more twist to allow for sliding. With metal ,the thickness and therefore the torsion is predetermined. You have to control power through shaping in this case.
BV

philfell
March 29th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the insight Bruce.

Mike T
March 30th, 2009, 08:47 AM
A reason to put the dacam on is also to make them more slide friendly. Once you get over 180 ish and have full camber with a decent stiffness they are beasts to slide. The amount done in the tail helps with that function of breaking the tail loose when needed.

When I first got my NSR in December 2007, this was the first thing I noticed... that it behaved as well on a skid or slide as it did in a carve. I think I mentioned on Jack's "Game Changer" thread that my 185 felt as maneuverable as say a Donek FC 175... should have mentioned it feels as skiddable as a a freeride deck when I need it to be.

Knowing I could safely put on the brakes was huge in terms of getting into the right mental state to ride more aggressively and push myself harder.

Bordy
March 30th, 2009, 12:43 PM
Good work Jack,

This is what you bring to the board, Although your current involment leaves you out of the loop on whats new and cool in the world of Alpine, It nice to see you share the info with others as you learn about it.

This is what you bring ot the board, I don't have the time to take pics and then write, and edit to make the thread reader friendly and BOL approved.

Thanks.

Decambered tails rip also....Mad smooth realese lots of acceleration, crazy platform to pressure for and aft!

ohiomoto
March 30th, 2009, 01:00 PM
Yes, this is a great thread. Hell, I even learned something about my skis.

This is what you bring to the board, Although your current involment leaves you out of the loop on whats new and cool in the world of Alpine, It nice to see you share the info with others as you learn about it. Since you don't have time for the pictures and write-ups, maybe you should work something out with Jack. That way we would all be current. Not that all of us want to spend the money on the latest and greatest, but sure would be nice to know about. I could factor into our future buying decisions.