alpine snowboarding industry today

[Cindy Kleh]

Looking for facts and comments about the direction of the snowboarding industry and the future of alpine riding/availability and price of alpine equipment.
Thanks.

[bobdea]

what I want and what is out there
and though I have not seen the numbers for the smaller companies that do not have the ability to get their stuff into every shop in the country I would assume that it has helped incredibly with the mom and pop operations

I think Alpine will grow as the snowboaders that started during the big growth of the sport in the mid and late 90s mature and get sick of jibbing

[skeez rule]

because skis are better and skiers are cooler
skis go faster too
alpine snowbaorders just wish they were cool thats why they wear plastic boots

[Mike T]

There are plenty of comments and if you look hard enough, some facts, available on this forum. If nothing else you'll understand the level of dedication to be found among alpine riders.

My personal opinion is that the small companies like Donek, Coiler, Madd, Prior, Bomber and Catek are the lifeblood of the sport, especially here in North America. I buy almost all of my boards and bindings from them and am always telling people about them, even for non-alpine when applicable.

[NateW]

I'm guessing (and hoping) that Bob is right - when the jib crowd's knees start to wear out, they're going to be looking for other challenges, and carving will get more popular. Skinny boards and stiff boots will get more popular as the core demographic gets into their thirties.

I kind of doubt that it will ever be as popular as softbooting, but I'd like to be wrong about that. Hard boots are for people who are willing to sacrifice walking comfort for riding performance and I doubt that's more than half of the snowboarding population. I'm pretty sure that's a whole lot more people than are riding hard boots today though.

[nils]

Cindy is actually writing an article for a mag ( Pro Rider Mag AASI), so all thoughts are welcome!
(especially if it helps our sport!)

Nils

[Tommy D]

If you haven't already been to the welcome center, check it out:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/welcome_center.cfm

There you will find all kinds of good information.

[philw]

Opinions are easy, facts perhaps a bit more difficult.

FWIW...

I think that most equipment is what used to be called "beginner/ intermediate" stuff, and there seem to be many boarders who attain that level. That's perhaps ok whilst the fashion is for "freestyle", but it doesn't really cut it out on the mountain.

Hence I think that at the moment snowboarding might be losing a lot of people back to skiing. Once you know how to sideslip, and assuming you're not interested in ballet-boarding, then there's no where to go. There will presumably be some data which would confirm or deny this.

The fashion wheel does turn, and some people always want to be expert, so there may be an opportunity ahead. The challenge for the industry fashion leaders will be to change with the fashion, but the're good at that. Look at Solomon: the epitome of ski and golf fashion takes snowboarding without breaking stride. The challenge for the small players who are helping us now, will be to capitalize on any shift and increase their share. That's a tough one.

I have a mate who's opening a snowboard shop in north america to sell "real snowboards". He's not a hard-booter, but he wants to sell expert gear for ripping, not beginner junk. Of course the market for the latter's going to be bigger than the one for the former.

[Cindy Kleh]

Thanks for the comments! I am especially interested in media and marketing's role in phasing out alpine and the larger companies' reluctance to discuss it. Has anyone purchased equipment from klugriding.com? Is Klug the only alpine rider that Burton has kept on their team? Do any other manufacturers sponsor alpine riders? What about the Olympic GS event? Is that just a joke to manufacturers? Why did boardercross make Olympic status ahead of slopestyle or big air? (FIS?)
Just curious ...
Cindy

[skategoat]

What hurts alpine:

1) The availability of equipment or lack thereof.
2) Zero media exposure.
3) Steep learning curve.

What helps alpine:

1) It's just the coolest goddamn thing to watch.

People see it, they want to do it but then they hit #1 and #3 in the first list. So they think it's some kind of wacko crazy fringe thing like swamp buggy racing or kite boarding.

What can be done about it? Encouragement and promotion from within. Convert two friends and they'll convert two more and so on and so on.

Then Burton will get back into alpine and ruin it. But we can all brag about the good old days.

[Pat Donnelly]

Here's a link to an article with qoutes from Fin Doyle and Sean Martin

http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73163613200296&Avis=SD&Dato=20040224&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=402240104&Ref=AR&rs=1

[Cindy Kleh]

Thanks, but I wrote that. That was part 3 of a 5-part series. I plan to expand on the alpine scene today and its future.
Cindy

[skategoat]

And it was damn well written, I might add. Hey, can we see the other 4 parts?

[patmoore]

Cindy,

Clearly we represent an older group than the softboot riders. As the latter group ages, carving will be an attractive alternative.

I encourage folks of my vintage (circa 1946) to try hardboots and some are showing interest. One of our club members is a 55 year old PSIA snowboard instructor who's never been on skis. My goal next winter is to convert him to hard boots.

[Donek]

Originally posted by Cindy Kleh
Thanks for the comments! I am especially interested in media and marketing's role in phasing out alpine and the larger companies' reluctance to discuss it. Has anyone purchased equipment from klugriding.com? Is Klug the only alpine rider that Burton has kept on their team? Do any other manufacturers sponsor alpine riders? What about the Olympic GS event? Is that just a joke to manufacturers? Why did boardercross make Olympic status ahead of slopestyle or big air? (FIS?)
Just curious ...
Cindy

As a manufacturer I can say that I don't consider the olympics to be a joke. The Joke was, however, on us. If you watched the olympics carefully, you would have noticed that every rider not on a Burton had their board cropped out of the frame whenever possible. The only US snowboarder who's run was not televised, was Pete Thorndike who was and is riding our boards. To have worked so hard to get someone on my boards in the olympics and not be able to see him take his run was a major dissapointment for me. I can only imagine what it was like for Pete to not have his family and friends share in that moment. Not to mention the timing system error that made it impssible for him to qualify.

We continue to sponsor riders on the national team. Our roster includes Pete Thorndike, Adam Smith, and Michelle Gorgone. We hope very much that one or all of them will make the next olympics and our riders will get the opportunity to be seen and recognized for their efforts.

As for the addition of one event over another, I have no involvement in that, but would say that it has very much to do with the entertainment value. Seeing riders crashing into each other and fighting head to head sells tickets to a broader audience.

As always Cindy, you are welcome to call me and ask questions.

Thanks for giving this sport the exposure it deserves. Everyone here appreciates it.

[Tim Tuthill]

Cindy; I bought a new pair of boots from them at the end of last season. It looks like Burton is selling out there alpine gear thru Klug?? Rumers are all over the place. I'm 61 and have a few other friends that are my age and older that ride all the time. They will not put on a pair of soft boots. They learned with hard boots an no instruction. This was ten years ago. When you go to Mammoth you will only see 2 to 5 Alpine guys on the hill if your lucky on a given day. Tim

[skategoat]

Sean:

A suggestion for you - ditch your cable company and get yourself a Canadian satellite dish. Then, treat yourself to the CBC feeds for the Olympics. CBC coverage for the Olympic Games is so much better than the American networks. Just take a look at the schedule for Athens:

http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/schedules/

Yes, there is a focus on Canadian athletes but it's not nearly as bad as the jingoistic coverage that you get on the U.S. networks. The CBC coverage is thorough, professional and honest. They never try to fool you into thinking a taped event is actually live.

Furthermore, CBC actually shows FIS snowboard racing live or at least same day.

If you're also an F1 fan, you can catch the international feed for all the Formula One races on TSN rather than having to suffer through the likes of Jason Priestly (a Canadian nonetheless) on the US networks.

And wouldn't it be nice to have an alternative to CNN? How about BBC World News, CTV Newsnet and CBC Newsworld?

We have two satellite providers:

www.starchoice.ca
www.expressvu.ca

Yes, you need a Canadian mailing addess but email me offline and I'm sure I can help you out.

Henry

[Kirk]

Sean

I do remember a small anti-smoking ad that Pete was in during the Olympics. They showed a shot of him riding and, if memory serves me, the Donek logo was visible. Of course it could be that I knew he was one of your team riders too - but I could swear I remember seeing that logo!

[$trider]

Hello Cindy,

I am currently a level 2 PSIA skier and snowboarder and have been doing both for a long time. I started in 90 on a Burton asym-air and was big into learning to carve it. Once I figured that out, it seemed like I had to learn to ride the pipe and big air jump at our hill here in the midwest. It was mostly because no one was riding hard gear and to be considered "good" you had to be able to get out of the pipe and at least pull a big Method on the jump. After learning to do these things, I started really working on carving again and paying attention to what was happeneing and how to change it. At this time I started racing and found 1 guy who was riding hard plates. After a year or two he talked me into it and I never looked back, and even ride my freestyle board in the pipe with plates and hardboots now because I have so much more control. Amazingingly this made the younger kids notice my setup, and also my carves on the hill. I started to get a lot of requested private lessons to learn to carve on softboards, and alpine gear. Its been about 5 years since that time and we now have 2.5 teams of 10 riders on alpine gear for our race night, and many young carvers on hard gear.

The big problem is exposure. Until I took my setup in the pipe the young kids didn't really notice the equipment or style. Also, the lack of places to buy the alpine gear hurts too. Most of the people at our hill rely on myself and a few others to buy gear from or to find gear for them on e-bay or Bombers site because they generally don't know what to be looking for. Fin has a great site with tons of info and once people find it they can have pretty much any question answered. I love the fact that there are Coilers, and Doneks, and many custom boards available because it really is the best way to get a board that works for you, but until there is some more media coverage(TV or Mags) it will be hard to get a big audience I think.
Whew...that was like one of Jack's posts. Sorry for being so long.

:D

[crucible]

I think that the alpine section of the snowboard market will continue to grow, but by very modest gains. The main reason for this will be the lack of support from the mainstream snowboard manufacturers, who are struggling in a consolidating market to keep their market share.

The big snowboard manufactuers are pinning their industry growth on the expansion of the youth market, that's why all of them are expanding their product programs to cover crossover lifestyle items such as clothing, eyewear, shoes and accessories.

The core market for alpine will always be a male dominated, technically proficent, affluent rider who has the time, finances and ability to spend a lot of time on the hill. Combine that with the unforgiving nature of alpine riding, and you will always have a very niche market.


George

[Tim Tuthill]

You hit it! I was told a few years ago that the manufacturers were in a decline as far as hardware was concerned, ie. snowboards. Clothes etc were what they were consintrating on. This was said by a mono ski manufacture in southern California.

[utahcarver]

Cindy,

If it wasn't for alpine snowboarding, I wouldn't even bother snowboarding all season. I'd keep a watch on the big powder days and go ride those exclusively. The little mom and pop hill I ride at has no Pipe Dragon or multiple trauma parks.

The fact that I can access all off the mountain, groomed, trees, unpacked, and occasional out of bounds runs with alpine equipment makes my weekends in the winter a whole lotta fun with my sons.

The lifeless short noodle-boards and generic strap bindings that come out every predictable Labor Day Ski/Snowboard sale makes me yawn uncontrollably. Clothing? Really? Each season seems to be another exercise in how logoed (core?) companies use color, seamage and pattern to amuse infantile minds into spreading their wallet gap wider to remove all the credit available on an alreadly maxed-out credit card.

Though I browsed klugriding.com incessantly this past year, I ended up buying used/new alpine gear right here on BOL for all of my snowboard purchases. I can buy whatever I want, sadly, the modern snowboard companies don't agree with my thinking: You'll buy what we tell you to buy.

That's when I vote with my hardboots and slide the other way. I have nothing against softboots as I often ride softies. But, to have them continually shoved down my throat is irritating even in the short term, and bad business for the sport in the long-term.

Good luck on your article,

Mark

No Flow = No Go

[NateW]

The main problem, I think, is about versatility. Alpine gear is widely perceived as good for racing and bad for everything else. Personally I ride an all-mountain setup all over the mountain and wouldn't have it any other way, so I know that perception is wrong - but alpine will remain a niche interest until that perception changes.

And then theres the cost... as hard booting lost popularity, production shrunk, so per-unit costs went up... since it's more expensive it's less popular, so production shrunk further (shrunk to zero for many brands). The cycle repeats until we have three brands of boots to choose from, all of which cost two or three times what soft gear costs, and none of which are carried in more than a handful of retail shops.

I try to put a positive spin on the economic thing when people ask me how much my setup cost. Yes, it's more expensive - because it's worth it. But that's a tough sell when I'm talking to people in the terrain park, even if I'm getting more air than most of them. :)

The high prices can't come down until the volumes come up, but that's going to be a challenge when hard boots and bindings cost twice as much as soft stuff and most people think they're only useful for racing. It's going to be difficult for the alpine segment to lift itself out of this hole.

I kinda wonder what would happen if the manufacturers put some of the top pros on all-mountain alpine setups and put some hard carving and big hardbooted air into the videos. Would consumers follow?

There's been a resurgence of long-board skateboarding lately, and I have a hunch that it's due to aging skateboarders. It will be interesting to see if alpine snowboarding benefits from the same changing demographics.

I'm hoping that it will, but I'm not ready to place any bets yet.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think longboarding got cool without us aging skaters. It's the slalom resurgence that's entirely due to skategeezers hooking up through ncdsa. And when I say entirely, I mean 100%. Without ncdsa.com, there would be no slalom scene.

[stoked]

haha utahcarver you must be some kind of soulmate

[jason_watkins]

So, just calling things how I see them:

I think freestyle snowboarding is going to be surpassed by freesking. Physics are on the skier's side: they're going faster, bigger and spin more. They have more freedom to move their body in the air to stall or change direction. Imagine the sorts of things high divers can do in the air. Not that freestyle snowboarding won't remain popular... but once it's surpassed in technical level by skiing, there may be an oppertunity for the snowboarding market fashion to grow beyond freestyle.

Snowboarding is also very young... as riders get older, I think they might become more receptive to alpine equipment. And I also expect more senier skiiers to convert as knee problems make them look toward a single plank.

I've been slow to convert over to hardboots. And I think that's typical for someone in my age bracket. No one wants to be the kook on the hill, especially among those 25 or younger. As long as the stores and media focus exclusively on freestyle, there's a fairly large portion of freeriding snowboarders that might like hardboots, but will never look at it as more than a curiosity.

Actually, my more hardcore freestyle friends *get* hardboots. They understand what a carved turn is all about, and they can see what the advantages to hardboots might be, even if it's not what they're interested in. What happens when these kids start getting older,, and have broken themselves enough that they don't want to be hitting 60 foot tables anymore?

I also think the equipment is going to continue to evolve. Softboots have been getting harder, ski boots softer. At some point, there's going to be a good, stiff and secure step in boot that bridges the two worlds. Some riders who try that might find they like hardboots

Who knows, but myself, I see a lot of oppertunity for hardboot snowboarding in the future, especially if it gains some media exposure. It's not likely to happen from boardercross though. Wide courses with lots of jumps, lots of room for passing make for better spectating so I expect softboots to be dominate there in the future.

[Jack Michaud]

I do have to believe that alpine snowboarding will see slow growth as snowboarders age and mature out of the terrain parks/pipes. Fin always tells me he sells more bindings each year, I don't know if he'd want to post stats.

I don't see the sport of snowboarding in general losing any ground to skiing as Jason says, since I think many people are just built to slide sideways.

Watching the olympics I did see many F2 boards as well as Burton. And that lone wolf on a Kessler!

Was that short enough Strider?

[$trider]

Dang it Jack..I expected more insight( and more post) than that. I actually enjoy reading your views on the sport and the technical tips...I was just poking fun at the length because my freinds are always telling me that I tell them too much and think too much about it. ;)

[Ghostrider]

My personal view is that one major aspect that our sport is lacking in order to break into that mainstream scene is that it needs a poster child.

Also, it needs to gain appeal to that freestyle crowd, to do that, you cant just have a bunch of sponsors that appeal to the "typical demographic" of "technically proficent, affluent rider who has the time, finances and ability to spend a lot of time on the hill"...you need sponsors that appeal to the children of those people.

The closest thing to a poster child I can think of is Klug and I dont mean to disrespect him in any way but you'll notice that his sponsors are targeted exactly at that demographic. Which is great, but that means that only people who are involved in the sport will know about klug. This does nothing to grow the sport or appeal to people outside of the sport even if they do see him.

If there was even just one person who represented snowboard racing and went out there with proper sponsorship that allowed access into that other freestyle demographic, the sport would see enormous gains. And by proper sponsorship, I dont even mean board or boot or binding sponsors. Much of snowboarding is a fashion industry. All it could take is a snowboard racer to put on a Element trucker hat, Von Zipper glasses, Quiksilver hooded sweatshirt, Volcom pants with the studded belt and Etnies shoes. Once they are all dressed up in proper attire, head to the half pipe for finals of a televised event and just stand around and party.

Hardbooting isnt stuck in the shadow of freestyle, it just needs a young person to say 'hey...this game ain't just your dads hobby anymore'

[Jack Michaud]

Sorry Strider, but there was some good insight already posted (and I knew you were kidding).

As Ghostrider says, we don't really have a poster child in the US. Klug is as close as we get, but he'd have to be killing it Bode Miller style in order to get more media attention. Jasey Jay is killing it, but being Canadian doesn't really influence the media down here. Klug also doesn't portray any "image" other than a clean-cut nice-guy racer and underdog-horrible-illness-survivor, both of which are just fine for racing.

Basically, we would need a new P&J. That's Peter and Jean - yeah Patrice and Jacques are giving alpine some cool exposure but it's certainly not as mainstream as Bauer and Nerva were.

Let's face it, in order for alpine to be "cool", it would take some major manufacturer or magazine to come out and tell the masses "this is cool, worship it". You know Burton is out (how ironic that they pulled out right on the cusp of the "online alpine revolution" - when they could have done something with it). But I don't think that's our goal.

[Mike Tokar]

I hope Cindy's not disappointed by her thread going off on a tangent, but it's still kind of on the topic of the future of the industry.

It seems as though the marketers and advertisers in and out of the industry already think alpine is cool, not because of the racing angle, but because of the edge angle. There is probably a larger percentage of pictures of alpine riders laying out carves on brochures (vs. pics of freestylers) than on the slopes. It looks cool, it looks like fun, and it will make some people think "I want to do that".

I see 2 types of people that would enjoy alpine equipment, or maybe 2 aspects of alpine that anyone into snowboarding would enjoy: the carving/surfing aspect and the speed rush.

to some, I'd sell the fun and free-riding aspects of alpine rather than techno-jargon and racing discipline. Snowboarding is supposed to be fun, not work. I think a lot of people convert to snowboarding to surf the hill, and start with the most inexpensive and comfortable set ups they can get. As the soft boots get stiffer for freeriding, the hardboots get softer for the same reason, and the snowboard population ages its' way out of the terrain parks and turn to carving, there should be some point of convergance that creates a greater demand for alpine equipment for the fun of it.

(Obviously, you don't HAVE to have an alpine set up to carve the slopes, but it makes it a lot easier and a lot more fun.)

All the carving fun aside, the other thing that's cool about alpine is the speed. Going fast is fun. The clock doesn't lie. Races are definitive. Alpine gear is the fastest stuff. By that rationale, alpine gear is the funnest stuff. (To the speed freaks of the world)

Regarding Cindy's question about racing: Boardercross and PGS events have a clear winner, not some subjective BS like figure skating and half-pipe. I still can't believe that there aren't any races in the US Open anymore. The Winter X games should have a pure downhill event. Just a big hill, no gates and some FAST riding. We all need a venue to bring out the big boards!!!

Sorry for the long rant,

MT

[utahcarver]

Mike,

Sorry to bump this thead up but, Mike, you have single-handedly just solved the Winter-X Games promotional and Nielsen ratings problems by suggesting a snowboard downhill race. Though I'm serious about what you've suggested, I can' help but think of what a fiasco Big Cable would make of this new addition to 'extreme' sports. As a kid, I remember watching Evel Knievel on ABC Wide World Of Sports, and the ski jumper who's fall is inexorably linked with Jim McKay's saying, "...and the agony of defeat." What links all this together is the chance that some competitor is gonna eat it BIG TIME. Remember EK pounding hisself into the ground in Las Vegas?

THAT, my friend, is gonna bring out the stir-crazy NASCAR/NHRA crowd in the winter. Put a STRAIGHTLINE down a pitch, say in Les Arcs, France? Or, how about the old downhill speed lane in Silverton, Colorado? Have Steve Mckinney host it, too.

This, this would save the Extreme TV industry from sure destruction! Ohh, and just think of the new sponsorships: "Now, leaving the starthouse on the number 17 Stay-Free/Bush's Baked Beans/LL Bean Donek 419cm is Stu Pidbutt, trying to reclaim his title from 9 years ago when a tragic crash on this same hill took all his limbs. His body is now hooked to the board by a new TorsoDigger2 (TD2) binding by Bomber Industries of Colorado."

Bottom line: if you want the sport of carving/hardbooting that we all love and enjoy so much to continue to grow and mature, please keep the Big Money out of it. Let the carving community grow at a natural pace.

What do you think ESPM or Mount-N-Doo would do to alpine boarding? Glamourize it or kill it?

OK, I'll put my cynism to bed now.

Mark

[NateW]

Right on, Mark. You crack me up. :D