BX soft-boot angles

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Well now that it's an upcoming Olympic sport, of course there's more TV hype and I've been watching a fair number of races lately (Jacobellis is not too bad...! ;) ).

Of course I can see why people are running in soft boots; just from the look of things I would think that having some ankle slop for steep drops and corrections would be necessary. But I've also noticed that people are riding some pretty park-style angles out there: a few looked to me like they were even running a slight duckfoot, but I just couldn't believe it! At the very least, it seemed that most had 0-15 rear and 15-30 front, although that was from quick mid-ride TV glimpses.

I've been getting a few runs in on my 168 F2 Eliminator with soft bindings up around 48/42; I tried running them lower to get more stability, but consistently got too much boot-out (mondo 27 Malamutes). It seems to me they avoid this by kinda just skidding the turns...?

Anyone got any explanation on this? Why are the angles so low, and why is that so much better?

greg

[dingbat]

What's the waist on your F2?

I run Salomon Synapses mondo 27.5 at much lower angles with no boot out issues at all on a 24cm waist.

[Gtanner]

If you are booting out, get some Burton Elevators or Palmer Power Plates. I use the Burtons and not only get rid of any pontential boot-out (at around 30f 10r angles), but the extra leverage is allows for more power to the edges.

-Gord

[philfell]

Most of the top guys are running around 27 degrees in the front foot and 9 degrees in the rear. Booting out in an SBX course is rare, because of the banks you never get too high of an edge angle.

Soft boots just don't provide the lateral support to run the high angles that you are running. SBX is more about gliding than being able to rail a GS type of carve. Lower angles and soft boots allow you to glide through uneven terrain much better than high angles and hardboots.

Definatly get some Palmer plates.

Trust me if Graham is skidding it's for an intended purpose, not to avoid booting out.

[ur13]

Burton Elevators or Palmer Power Plates are a MUST for BX. The leverage on your edges is key.

[WinterGold]

Plates a MUST??? I think that hardly any of the top guys in the World Cup use plates in the BX discipline. Just check the pictures on the fissnowboardworldcup site. Plates don´t really improve the handling of the board (when landing big jumps, etc.) ...

[philfell]

We are not talking Hangle plates or vist plates.

The Palmer plates are made for soft boots and YES most of the top guys on the World Cup are on them. They are pretty much considered standard SBX equipment.

Since you are so in tune with the FISSNOWBOARDWORLDCUP.com site watch the Sunday River World cup videos, Graham is on Palmer Plates as Ross is also on a riser plate system. Bobby Minghini who placed 8th is on Palmer plates. Pretty much all the US Team that I know of are on the plates except for some of the girls.

[philfell]

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zxabef.jpg

[philfell]

http://i40.tinypic.com/n3uqt.jpg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

The elevator plate is exactly what I was looking for! My Eliminator has a 24.5 waist or something like that.

Of course I'm not looking to run BX courses; I just use it as a do-anything freeride/carve board. As such I carve on flats instead of banks, and I love high-G freecarving. But I'm definitely going to get a set, as lower angles would surely help with off-trail stability....

greg

[bobdea]

just a BTW on the plates

I have no idea what the BXers are riding for palmer plates but they are not all created equal the low end ones that are a touch thicker don't work nearly as well as the the higher end ones. there's a few reasons but the main thing is some have more rubber than others and support the binding better.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Any recommendations to use with Burton bindings? Is their Elevator plate a good choice?

greg

[bobdea]

Any recommendations to use with Burton bindings? Is their Elevator plate a good choice?

greg

I did not like the burton plates.
the palmer plates work on burton boards.
these are the palmer plates that don't work for me http://www.sierrasnowboard.com/2009-Palmer-Standard-Plates-44140.asp

these below are the ones I liked.

http://www.activeoutfitters.com/p-1947-pls-shock.aspx


BTW, I played with the F2 sflex under my catek fr2s, that was heavy as all hell but felt good. I'm not racing BX tho and air with that much weight is scary.
did work well for blasting through chop on softies though

IMO, much better systems could be developed for this application a 24 cm wide sflex for example might be the ticket
dunno, just thinking out loud
Phil, there are other plates worth mention that we may have not heard about?

[philfell]

Those Shock Palmer Plates are pretty much the standard. The Elevators work to lift, but don't add any dampening, as do the lower end Palmer plates.

But I feel it's worth the extra money to get the good Palmer plates, they work better and they last long enough not to worry about needing to replace them anytime soon.

One hint when mounting them, you only need to screw the inserts in finger tight, because when you tighten the binding screws this snugs up the insert screws......Don't worry about understanding this now, it will make sense if you get the plate and see how they set-up.

I haven't played around with the S-Flex first hand so I can't comment on that, but I haven't seen any high end riders on them so my interest hasn't been caught by these. Plus the Plamer Plates work well and are so simple.

[bobdea]

Those Shock Palmer Plates are pretty much the standard. The Elevators work to lift, but don't add any dampening, as do the lower end Palmer plates.

But I feel it's worth the extra money to get the good Palmer plates, they work better and they last long enough not to worry about needing to replace them anytime soon.

One hint when mounting them, you only need to screw the inserts in finger tight, because when you tighten the binding screws this snugs up the insert screws......Don't worry about understanding this now, it will make sense if you get the plate and see how they set-up.

I haven't played around with the S-Flex first hand so I can't comment on that, but I haven't seen any high end riders on them so my interest hasn't been caught by these. Plus the Plamer Plates work well and are so simple.

right on, the Sflex has one limitation in that the only softboot binding I know of that it will work with is the catek due to the small foot print.

what's the BX binding of choice right now?

[philfell]

Burton Co2's followed by the Burton c 60

[Kex]

...I use the Burtons and not only get rid of any pontential boot-out (at around 30f 10r angles), but the extra leverage is allows for more power to the edges.

-Gord
extra leverage? how do risers give you that? being higher up will actually give you no more leverage from my understanding of physics...

imagine you are on some crazy high risers(like a foot or more). you will get no more leverage from them than you would from being as close to the board as possible.

If you are thinking about exerting a lateral torque to the top of the riser, that could result in more pressure on the edges, but only if you have a fixed pivot position a certain distance from the edge, to provide more pressure on the edge (which, if there is anything that's close to a fixed pivot point, it would be the edge itself, making the above meaningless).

Even so, thats not how we pressure the edges anyway. We use angulation (a combination of exerting an upward force on one side of the board, e.g. with our toes, and exerting a downward force with the other side(heels in the example Im mentioning). This creates a special case of torque about the middle of the board, called a couple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couple_%28mechanics%29), which has nothing to do with the height you are off the ground, but has to do with the size of your feet, stance angles, and board width(distance from the center of rotation)

[surfinsmiley]

....... from my understanding of physics...

Hmmm... one of us needs to go back to class then:sleep:

[Kex]

Hmmm... one of us needs to go back to class then:sleep:
i agree, and it isnt myself

edit:
The more I think about it, the more I know I am correct.

if anything, more height means less pressure on the edges. because we want our edges to dig into the snow/ice, we want as much downward force as possible. by adding elevation(think back to the example earlier, about an insanely tall riser), we take away from the downward pressure and add in more of a horizontal pressure. this is the opposite of what we want

[surfinsmiley]

Kex, think about what the term "lever" actually means.

Think about how a lever works.

See folly of previous statement.:confused:

[Kex]

Kex, think about what the term "lever" actually means.

Think about how a lever works.

See folly of previous statement.:confused:
are you really trying to say that a riser makes your lever longer? because the "lever" you speak of is the width of your board, NOT the height of it.

[surfinsmiley]

I might be completely wrong.

I`m thinking along the lines of this visualization.
Take a 6 inch long stick and attach it to the center of the board. Use the stick to tilt the board up on edge and note the required force.
Now take that same stick and make it 6 feet long. Use the stick to tilt the board up on edge. The required force is substantially less due to the lever effect.

Does that same theory not hold true when talking about riser plates?

[twelsch42]

Burton Co2's followed by the Burton c 60

There are such better bindings - Is this a sponsorship thing? Why is nobody riding the FR2's?

[Kex]

I might be completely wrong.

I`m thinking along the lines of this visualization.
Take a 6 inch long stick and attach it to the center of the board. Use the stick to tilt the board up on edge and note the required force.
Now take that same stick and make it 6 feet long. Use the stick to tilt the board up on edge. The required force is substantially less due to the lever effect.

Does that same theory not hold true when talking about riser plates?
you are thinking in the wrong plane. with a snowboard, our lever is in the horizontal plane(when starting a carve), just call it the x plane. risers increase the distance in the vertical or y plane. since our force is along the y axis, increasing the length of the y axis changes nothing. (torque is equal to the force times the perpendicular (tangential) distance from our center of rotation. if you increase y, you are only increasing the parallel distance(radial). maybe this drawing of a board as seen from beind or from in front will help. Its rough and drawn in paint, but it gets the point across. the riser height is exaggerated for effect but even with a small riser height, the distance L2 will always be greater than L1

edit: just noticed a mistake in the drawing. the sum of M is not equal to M1 + M2. I was originally going to make the pulling force F1 and the pushing F2 but decided to set them equal for simplicity's sake. Then i made F2 the force for the second example, and forgot to correct the equation.
again, Ignore the lines that say sum M = M1 + M2.

edit 2: also please note that I am not advising against the use of risers. I am merely trying to show that I am correct in saying that risers result in a smaller downward force transferred to the snow.

As real life risers are nowhere near as tall as the one in my drawing, they have a much smaller effect on the downward force applied to the metal edges of the board, and the damping effects, in addition to the reduced bootout effects, usually outweigh the very small disadvantage they have

[Bullwings]

twelsh - Catek FR2s are good for carving, but they're pretty rough on me when i start jumping with them, probably why they're not used for SBX, i dunno. they're pretty stiff and rigid. probably the same reason why TD2s weren't really used on the racing scene either - TD3s are getting more attention though with that huge elastomer shock absorber.


Kex, risers are used on skateboards too, not only for wheelbite but also to increase leverage.


Also, your figure is wrong in that you're treating the snowboard as a first class lever. it's not. it's a third class lever. your fulcrum isn't at the center of the board. it's at the edge of the board, the edge not in contact with the snow. your force comes from the center of the board, and the load is the other edge, the one that's in contact with the snow.

it's actually a combination of levers. picture an upside down "T" the horizontal part is the board, and the vertical part is the riser/binding interface (you at the end of it).

based on how you've made your diagram (a first class lever), in order to put more force into the edge in contact with the snow, you need to PULL up on the edge not in contact with the snow in order to push the other edge down into the snow, while you at the center are the fulcrum (as a note, pulling my toes up doesn't do anything for me to set my heel edge in more, but driving my knees does)... or, if you put it the other way, where you push down on the edge in contact with the snow, then you don't have a lever at all anymore... you can't have your load, fulcrum, AND effort all in the same spot - that's not a lever...

if your force is into the snow, and your fulcrum is the center of the board, then you're technically doing work on the edge that up in the air and applying force on the air...


i might be completely wrong, and probably am. hell, i'm and idiot, i'm talking snowboard theory and jargon here - i should be out riding instead...

i'm sure someone with real knowledge will set us straight. they'll tell us that we're both idiots and that we're both wrong. haha

[Kex]

twelsh - Catek FR2s are good for carving, but they're pretty rough on me when i start jumping with them, probably why they're not used for SBX, i dunno. they're pretty stiff and rigid. probably the same reason why TD2s weren't really used on the racing scene either - TD3s are getting more attention though with that huge elastomer shock absorber.


Kex, risers are used on skateboards too, not only for wheelbite but also to increase leverage.


Also, your figure is wrong in that you're treating the snowboard as a first class lever. it's not. it's a third class lever. your fulcrum isn't at the center of the board. it's at the edge of the board, the edge not in contact with the snow. your force comes from the center of the board, and the load is the other edge, the one that's in contact with the snow.

it's actually a combination of levers. picture an upside down "T" the horizontal part is the board, and the vertical part is the riser/binding interface (you at the end of it).

based on how you've made your diagram (a first class lever), in order to put more force into the edge in contact with the snow, you need to PULL up on the edge not in contact with the snow in order to push the other edge down into the snow, while you at the center are the fulcrum... or, if you put it the other way, where you push down on the edge in contact with the snow, then you don't have a lever at all anymore... you can't have your load, fulcrum, AND effort all in the same spot - that's not a lever...

if your force is into the snow, and your fulcrum is the center of the board, then you're technically doing work on the edge that up in the air and applying force on the air...


i might be completely wrong, and probably am. hell, i'm and idiot, i'm talking snowboard theory and jargon here - i should be out riding instead...

i'm sure someone with real knowledge will set us straight. they'll tell us that we're both idiots and that we're both wrong. haha
I guess I should have specified. my diagram is taking into account only the forces exerted onto the board with initial foot angulation, and is not modeling a lever. If you are speaking of a lever, then the fulcrum of the lever is on the edge of the board where it is touching the snow, and you have your forces of gravity trying to pull one way on the lever while momentum keeps you from falling.

My model is just a sum of the initial forces as you initiate a turn. The sum of the forces causes the axis of rotation to be in a location different than the edge of the board. Since your board cannot freely pivot, and is limited by the plane of the snow, it will instead go onto edge.

sorry I didnt specify that, though I am sure I will get flamed either way. I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage.

[xy9ine]

i didn't notice risers on any of the podiums @ the cypress wc bx; is it a course specific hardware choice?

looking at the huge berms on the course (and subsequent lack of edge angles / need for carving ability), i think it'd be neat to throw some fast flat turns in the courses - to see hardboots back on the course, and the different styles mixing it up again.

[philfell]

Kex there is more than one lever on a snowboard. The high back is a lever, when you push against the high back this levers the board on edge. The further away from the fulcrom (ie edge in this case) the more "leverage" you have. Plates do this, same is true for toeside, but the lever is a bit more complicated.

As far as guys using Burton bindings, most everyone purchases theirs, not many get them for free. Guys use these instead of the cateks for pretty much the same reason the racers us F2's instead of TD2's.

And Cindy are you trying to say that Lindsay is a lesbian??? If so this is so not true.

[philfell]

After some thinking about this imangine this:



Screw a one inch high "L" bracket on top of your board near the edge. Now try to tilt the board on edge using this "L" bracket, it would require quite a bit of effort. Now screw this same "L" bracket on a riser plate, it would now be easier to put the board on edge because although you are using the same size bracket you have increased you "LEVERAGE".

Does this jive with your science class?

[D.T.]

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=16404&stc=1&d=1236327526

your FBD is wrong - therefore the rest of your analysis is based on flawed logic.

[Rob Stevens]

looking at the huge berms on the course (and subsequent lack of edge angles / need for carving ability), i think it'd be neat to throw some fast flat turns in the courses.

A pretty common misconception.

Carving is not easier with low edge angles, it's actually harder as the rider must actively steer more to keep the tail following the nose. At high edge angles, the sidecut is locked in and practically carves itself.

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance. Experts can stay standing up better than most, so the benefits to them outweigh any intermediate riders negative observations.

[bobdea]

There are such better bindings - Is this a sponsorship thing? Why is nobody riding the FR2's?

if I were racing BX I'm not sure I'd use my FR2s, friggin heavy and stiff.

Burton makes sense for three reasons in my head but I am guessing
1 light
2 forgiving without slop
3 some people might be actually burton riders....


Have you ridden said bindings?

I like the high end burton bindings.............

[twelsch42]

if I were racing BX I'm not sure I'd use my FR2s, friggin heavy and stiff.

Burton makes sense for three reasons in my head but I am guessing
1 light
2 forgiving without slop
3 some people might be actually burton riders....


Have you ridden said bindings?

I like the high end burton bindings.............

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

[WinterGold]

We are not talking Hangle plates or vist plates.

The Palmer plates are made for soft boots and YES most of the top guys on the World Cup are on them. They are pretty much considered standard SBX equipment.

Since you are so in tune with the FISSNOWBOARDWORLDCUP.com site watch the Sunday River World cup videos, Graham is on Palmer Plates as Ross is also on a riser plate system. Bobby Minghini who placed 8th is on Palmer plates. Pretty much all the US Team that I know of are on the plates except for some of the girls.
I know that we are not talking about Vist, etc.
Ok, there are some riders using plates, but a MUST??? The top rider in the SBX this season does not use a plate as well as many other top riders. So how can it be a must?
I hope I didn´t come across as if I am an expert. I´m just curious as to what setup the pros ride. And plates do change the board feeling considerably - some like it and some don´t, as it seems ...

[philfell]

Your right the guy leading the WC rankings is not riding plates, but like I said pretty much the entire US team, which consist of 10 people in the top 30 in the WC, as well as many others do.

Not saying they are a must, but they are used widely enough to give them a try to see if they work for you.

[twelsch42]

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance.


This is what I have noticed. I usually like to ride with alot of rise out of my FR2's - my edge changes feel lightning fast. When I go back to a flat binding (older cartels) it feels like I have to get my body way into a turn before my edges will grab. Without a lot of rise it seems like your upper body can be much more active without affecting your edges as much. When you're getting lots of air and negotioating 5 other riders this is probably a good thing.

T

edit: upon reflection, I may be comparing apples to oranges here and might not know what I'm talking about.

[bobdea]

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

cartels are sort of a different animal. those are based on a much older design and offer a different feel.

[Gtanner]

As for the other argument, risers will not pressure the edge more, but they will allow you to tip the board over with less effort. This can be both good and bad, depending on your abilty to retain your balance. Experts can stay standing up better than most, so the benefits to them outweigh any intermediate riders negative observations.

THis is what I was referring to, thank Rob. Less effort to get on edge and less anglulation required to move your center of gravity out over said edge.

I use the Burton Elevators and have a dampening pad on my TechNine bindings, so although it's not quite as good as the palmer plates, they work fine for my needs.

-Gord

[xy9ine]

A pretty common misconception...

not what i insinuated. simply that because the corners are all bermed, there's no need for carving gear to haul through them. toss in some flat turns & alpine hardware might become more relevant. or not. last time i watched harbooters in bx, they all looked pretty spastic in the air.

[Kex]

Kex there is more than one lever on a snowboard. The high back is a lever, when you push against the high back this levers the board on edge. The further away from the fulcrom (ie edge in this case) the more "leverage" you have. Plates do this, same is true for toeside, but the lever is a bit more complicated.

As far as guys using Burton bindings, most everyone purchases theirs, not many get them for free. Guys use these instead of the cateks for pretty much the same reason the racers us F2's instead of TD2's.

And Cindy are you trying to say that Lindsay is a lesbian??? If so this is so not true.
yes, there is more than one lever, in fact there are many forces being exerted on many different locations. My diagram is illustrating one particular aspect of the forces exerted.

With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing. As you yourself said, the edge is the fulcrum. this is exactly why risers offer no more power to your edge. a longer lever does not effect the fulcrum at all. it effects the load your are exerting force against.

Anyway, if you want to continue convincing yourself that risers increase the power to your edges, that's fine with me, but they really dont add any more power. they are used for the other benefits they present. Im not going to continue trying to argue with people that dont listen to reason, so in summary: if they did increase power, you would see people riding on 6 inch plus risers. they obviously do not, and if you are unconvinced, try making your own 6 inch risers and see how much power you can add.

[NateW]

not what i insinuated. simply that because the corners are all bermed, there's no need for carving gear to haul through them. toss in some flat turns & alpine hardware might become more relevant. or not. last time i watched harbooters in bx, they all looked pretty spastic in the air.

If they took out the berms, soft boots would be about as competitive as they are in GS, which is to say, they'd disappear. Seems to me that the whole point of those berms is to produce a form of racing that the other 99% of the snowboard community can relate to.

[gdboytyler]

I've ridden Cartels from 2 years ago...I figured all burton plastic bindings were the same. :D

For the past 7+ years, I've been using Flow bindings for my softboot setup. The older strap bindings killed my feet. But because of Phil's info in past posts about the pro BX racers using Burton C60's and very positve BOL reviews on the C60 (mainly from bobdea), I decided to try out the C60's this season.

Without a doubt, the Burton C60's are the best performing, most comfy softboot bindings I've ever tried.

[pan]

I was at SBX in Cypress and Stoneham. I've seen most top riders are in freestyle/freeriding setting (-5 to +5 rar, +15 to +20 front) and most of them are on palmer riser.

[Flash]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

[bobdea]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

I like ride bindings as well. There's a ton of great options when it comes to softboot bindings depending on what you need and want. Ride is a good intermediate between burton and mega burly stuff like catek.

[philfell]

yes, there is more than one lever, in fact there are many forces being exerted on many different locations. My diagram is illustrating one particular aspect of the forces exerted.

With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing. As you yourself said, the edge is the fulcrum. this is exactly why risers offer no more power to your edge. a longer lever does not effect the fulcrum at all. it effects the load your are exerting force against.

Anyway, if you want to continue convincing yourself that risers increase the power to your edges, that's fine with me, but they really dont add any more power. they are used for the other benefits they present. Im not going to continue trying to argue with people that dont listen to reason, so in summary: if they did increase power, you would see people riding on 6 inch plus risers. they obviously do not, and if you are unconvinced, try making your own 6 inch risers and see how much power you can add.

Now you are changing the wording around to suit your argument. I never said anything about an increase in "power" or "Pressure". I just backed up the fact that risers increase leverage when you were making statements that said that they could not increase "LEVERAGE".

Again here is a quote from you: " I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage" and then you say this: "With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing."

And you are trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

[philfell]

Guys:

You should check out Ride's CAD bindings. They have a platform built into the base that allows for lift and canting. Not trying to flame Burton, but the Rides are definitely much sturdier construction as well and the toe-cap mechanism is excellent.

I rode C60s for a few years...the Rides are far superior.

Just my 2 cents.

Flash

I'm just stating what is being used the most by the World Cup riders. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Burton C60's

[svr]

Now that I have a few days on all of the above, I must say that I am very impressed by the force MC's and they would be my recommendation to anyone looking for a lightweight, responsive freeride binding. The C60's are over rated and overpriced IMO and the Rides are really good, but I am very impressed by the Union's and anyone considering the other models should give them a try. I am not impressed by how heavy the rest of the Union line is, but the Force-MC is the lightest strap binding available on the market today.

Also, I am not a serious bx-er, but I found that the palmer plates did not really help me for racing (size 10.5/28.8) and if I was still competing I would not use them, and the Cateks are nice for their adjustability, but I will sacrifice that for weight as they are just too damn heavy. Just my $.02.

cheers,
sandy

[MUD]

Hey SVR,
Any feeling on the durability for the Union's? Coming from many years of binding breaking, they seem a little too light....... I know this doesn't mean anything, but you know what I mean. I go about 200 lbs for reference.

[Kex]

Now you are changing the wording around to suit your argument. I never said anything about an increase in "power" or "Pressure". I just backed up the fact that risers increase leverage when you were making statements that said that they could not increase "LEVERAGE".

Again here is a quote from you: " I do maintain though, that risers do not give you increased leverage" and then you say this: "With your example, you are correct in saying that the further from the fulcrum you are, the more leverage you have, but you are forgetting one thing."

And you are trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
I guess i dont know what you are trying to say then. I assumed people were talking about using a larger lever to increase the power transferred to their edges. Along those lines I am saying that risers will not help you. you are just saying "leverage" without specifying what you are levering. care to tell me what it is these risers are helping you to "lever"? if you are just talking about ease of getting on edge, then yes, risers help you, but only because they raise your center of gravity higher off the ground.

[philfell]

I'm just stating that they improve leverage.

You were just falsly stating that there is no way that they do actually increase leverage, I was trying to show you that they do.

[svr]

Hey SVR,
Any feeling on the durability for the Union's? Coming from many years of binding breaking, they seem a little too light....... I know this doesn't mean anything, but you know what I mean. I go about 200 lbs for reference.

Yes, I am worried about that as well, but I am 210lbs and after three really hard days of riding them, I have taken them off and inspected them and no problems as of yet...I worry about it so much that I bring an extra set of bindings with me every time I go ride. Union does offer a lifetime warranty on the base of the bindings as well so we will see and up to now they have not had any warranty claims on the baseplates of any of their bindings.

cheers,
sandy

[MUD]

Yes, I am worried about that as well, but I am 210lbs and after three really hard days of riding them, I have taken them off and inspected them and no problems as of yet...I worry about it so much that I bring an extra set of bindings with me every time I go ride. Union does offer a lifetime warranty on the base of the bindings as well so we will see and up to now they have not had any warranty claims on the baseplates of any of their bindings.

cheers,
sandy

Cool. Thanks for the info Sandy.... I may give these a try if I don't like my Cateks.

[Rob Stevens]

Hey Phil;

Do some of the bigger racers use the new C60's with the forward lean adjustment built as a wedge in the split highback? I took those bindings off afer one day, as they felt almost as flexy as Burtons plastic offerings from the C14 - 16 era. The addition of the mesh in the highback didn't seem to help either. If I used bindings in powder, I suppose they'd be on that board, but seeing as I don't, they're back in their box for now.

On the other topic...

My last obeservation about risers is this: The initiating of movement from a flat base feels just as hard to start as without them. However, once the edging movement has started, it is easier to flow through. It was this sensation that I could see creating instability in riders still developing skills. A great deal of resistance is eliminated when progressing through a range of edge angles in a turn, reducing feedback. Once again, it felt like it took the same force to start the process, but once it was going, the efforts seemed to be made easier.

I wasn't getting any fatter through the turn, though, so I suppose any increase in pressure would have to be realtive to turn shape, edge angle and speed.

[philfell]

More of the guys are on CO2's than the C60's. It's so individual though. I got on Bobby Minghini's board for a run and couldn't beleive how little forward lean he was running, I could barely ride the board, but it works for him.

[newcarver]

On the subject of riser: They will raise your center of gravity some which will make it easier to go edge to edge. Basically the same principles that are applied to car handling. Lower center of gravity and roll center = more cornering stability (less corner roll). Raise the center of gravity and it will roll over more in the corners (makes it easier to roll over too). I don't think it actually results in more weight transfer to the edges, just easier transfer. Might be all wrong on this but this is how I see it.

[DiveBomber]

Im working on my soft boot "style" HB set up, on a couple of my BX boards...probably try it out tomorrow or wed.
Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42(might try one notch back at 39)

guess it just depends on the conditions and the course.

my 225W board im running 57-60 front and 42-48 rear(7deg cant)

[philfell]

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you racing with that set-up and if so at what level? Or are you just riding for fun.

[Kex]

I'm just stating that they improve leverage.

You were just falsly stating that there is no way that they do actually increase leverage, I was trying to show you that they do.
leverage for what? you have not mentioned what you are trying to lever.

also, after considering your analogy to highbacks, I think it is false anyway. with highbacks, the force of you trying to pivot on your heels is what is transferred to them. that puts the fulcrum at heel level, not edge level, meaning the riser does not help at all. On the other hand, a longer highback would help, but then its easier to get caught on a lift while hopping on, which brings up a new problem.

As I said earlier, risers will raise your center of gravity, making it easier to fall over and therefore get low, but there is no "leverage: increas

[philfell]

I guess you either get it at this point or you don't. And you are in the latter. Read what Rob has said, he has summed it up well enough. Also go through and read all of your post one after another, you may find out something about yourself.

[bobdea]

Im working on my soft boot "style" HB set up, on a couple of my BX boards...probably try it out tomorrow or wed.
Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42(might try one notch back at 39)

guess it just depends on the conditions and the course.

my 225W board im running 57-60 front and 42-48 rear(7deg cant)

20 degrees of splay?

why?

well, there's a lot to be said about those angles in hard boots. I suggest just getting softboots learning to ride in them.

okay, a rant is going to begin and I am not targeting you specifically but you are included in it.

Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to?
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS??? I have a suspicion that the people here that say "ohh, I want to ride hardboots for BX" have not done it it on both types of gear or even tried it with other people on a course with them.
It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous.


Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding?

Don't get me wrong, I am a Alpine evangelist but I see so much of it on this forum and if you guys would take the time and advice and set up a proper softboot setup for certain things it would save you all a bunch of time.

[Kex]

I guess you either get it at this point or you don't. And you are in the latter. Read what Rob has said, he has summed it up well enough. Also go through and read all of your post one after another, you may find out something about yourself.
what he says supports exactly what I'm saying
"The initiating of movement from a flat base feels just as hard to start as without them" this means there is no more leverage... and what he follows with, supports what I said about raising your center of gravity. So... thanks for telling me to read something that supports what I said. I've ridden the same board with and without risers and there is no difference in leverage. So I believe that in fact, you have it backwards. I get it and you dont.

As for what you said about my posting, its something I already know: I spend waaay too much time trying to educate people that dont want to be educated, and dont listen to reason. Sorry about that, I wont try to teach you anymore. I wish you the best!

[Buell]

So I believe that in fact, you have it backwards. I get it and you dont.

As for what you said about my posting, its something I already know: I spend waaay too much time trying to educate people that dont want to be educated, and dont listen to reason. Sorry about that, I wont try to teach you anymore. I wish you the best!

Kex, seriously dude. Do you know who Phil Fell is? I will give you hint. He is not some average joe carver on BOL.

I am going to go ahead and spell it out for you:
USSA 2008 Domestic Snowboard Coach of the Year - Phil Fell
USSA 2008 Snowboard Program of the Year - PCSBTThat means that he was the USSA USA coach of the year. That is due to his skill as an alpine snowboard racing coach. PCSBT is the Park City Snowboard Team and Phil was head of it in 2008 when it was given the honor of being the Program of the Year.

This may be the internet and there may be some cloak of anonymity, but philfell is Phil Fell and he deserves to be treated with a tremendous amount of respect.

Thanks, Buell

[DiveBomber]

Don't take this the wrong way, but are you racing with that set-up and if so at what level? Or are you just riding for fun.

Yes, Open class

[Bullwings]

Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary...

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning

[DiveBomber]

20 degrees of splay?

why?

actually if you do the math its more like 9-12

well, there's a lot to be said about those angles in hard boots. I suggest just getting softboots learning to ride in them.
I have soft boots, I dont like riding in them
okay, a rant is going to begin and I am not targeting you specifically but you are included in it.

Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to?
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS??? I have a suspicion that the people here that say "ohh, I want to ride hardboots for BX" have not done it it on both types of gear or even tried it with other people on a course with them.
It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous.

Brutal? I wouldnt say that, I do ok with my set up, I run through the park almost every run an can handle most things on the mtn, I can suck up bumps just fine, pump, jump, land switch, etc.. soft boots feel much worse to me, I dont like the riding style and position and I like narrower boards


Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding?

My soft HB set up its about the same as my Softboot set up as far as stiffness, but I get much more support, and I get enough lateral flex too, I can do nose grabs and slashes easy with it.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Alpine evangelist but I see so much of it on this forum and if you guys would take the time and advice and set up a proper softboot setup for certain things it would save you all a bunch of time.


works for me...:biggthump

[Kex]

Kex, seriously dude. Do you know who Phil Fell is? I will give you hint. He is not some average joe carver on BOL.

I am going to go ahead and spell it out for you:
USSA 2008 Domestic Snowboard Coach of the Year - Phil Fell
USSA 2008 Snowboard Program of the Year - PCSBTThat means that he was the USSA USA coach of the year. That is due to his skill as an alpine snowboard racing coach. PCSBT is the Park City Snowboard Team and Phil was head of it in 2008 when it was given the honor of being the Program of the Year.

This may be the internet and there may be some cloak of anonymity, but philfell is Phil Fell and he deserves to be treated with a tremendous amount of respect.

Thanks, Buell
I'm not trying to disrespect him, my hats off to him for being coach of the year, thats an accomplishment to be proud of. It does not however make him an expert in physics. Sorry that I'm trying to explain how forces and torque work to a snowboard coach, I guess I should be flamed for trying to do that. Anyway, as I said, I'm done trying to teach those that dont want to be taught, and I'm not going to try anymore. apparently being coach of the year means you are always right and dont have to even try to listen to what others say


Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary...

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning
gasp! someone with an opinion on a forum!

[Buell]

It does not however make him an expert in physics.

Actually, I am pretty sure that it does make him an expert in the physics of how to make a snowboard work well and go fast. This is not some theoretical classroom thing for Phil. This is what he lives.

Glad to hear that you are done educating the experts, because you have a lot to learn. :nono:

Buell

[Kex]

Actually, I am pretty sure that it does make him an expert in the physics of how to make a snowboard work well and go fast. This is not some theoretical classroom thing for Phil. This is what he lives.

Glad to hear that you are done educating the experts, because you have a lot to learn. :nono:

Buell
then I take it you believe that risers increase "leverage" too? If so, you both need to go take a physics course.

anyway, I'm done trying to defend or explain myself or correct physics. Please continue to flame, I wont reply again. I'll just laugh like I have been doing this whole time. It never ceases to amaze me what people will believe

[bobdea]

works for me...:biggthump

hey, you said "Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42"

42-21=21 this info comes from what you posted.


you don't like riding them because you either 1, don't have the skills or are refusing to learn or 2 have not set up your softboot setup properly. seems like both.

yeah, brutal. I have ridden both types of gear quite a bit. there's a reason why no one rides pipe on plates if they plan to compete. same reason many of the people who ride plates for PGS ride softboots for BX.

you say you can handle most things on the mountain with your setup. If you can't charge everything within the boundaries of where you ride on your setup you probably should not be anywhere near BX course. If not for your own safety then for the poor sap who has to navigate around your carcass when you eat ****.

I have no idea why you'd want to do this other than a lack of common sense.
BTW Damian Sanders dropped the hardboots as well..........

[Buell]

It never ceases to amaze me what people will believe

Like how much they know at 21? :rolleyes:


then I take it you believe that risers increase "leverage" too? If so, you both need to go take a physics course.

I have not actually given it any thought and I haven't said a thing about it. Interesting way to jump to a conclusion though.

Take care, Buell

[Buell]

Don't waste your time... this is the same guy that thinks that a well tuned board is unneccessary...

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24269&highlight=tuning

Thanks Bullwings. I guess I missed participating in that gem. ;)

[DiveBomber]

hey, you said "Right now have the rear at 21 and the front at 42"

42-21=21 this info comes from what you posted.


you don't like riding them because you either 1, don't have the skills or are refusing to learn or 2 have not set up your softboot setup properly. seems like both.

yeah, brutal. I have ridden both types of gear quite a bit. there's a reason why no one rides pipe on plates if they plan to compete. same reason many of the people who ride plates for PGS ride softboots for BX.

you say you can handle most things on the mountain with your setup. If you can't charge everything within the boundaries of where you ride on your setup you probably should not be anywhere near BX course. If not for your own safety then for the poor sap who has to navigate around your carcass when you eat ****.

I have no idea why you'd want to do this other than a lack of common sense.
BTW Damian Sanders dropped the hardboots as well..........

Oh yeah, I guess you got me there, only read the last part of the msg of mine that you quoted, But heck on my soft boots im at 36&12=24, So whats the difference?? If im going for a more soft boot style of riding, with a wider board??

I dont think you speak from that much experince, and you certainly don't know how I ride/feel. and I feel more comfortable on plates, and Im not the only one

Sanders was about freestyling, he rode with the top buckle loose, that really doesnt translate in anyway...

why do I even say anything...

[bobdea]

20 degrees of splay is quite a bit, it MAY work for you but that would indicate you're special. In softboots that's even high but not unheard of, if you ride duck. I don't know of any riders I'd consider good running that amount of splay in hardboots.
If you have not already figured out why that does not work for most people I'm not sure anyone could explain it to you.

I do know a bunch of guys around 15 in the front and a few negative in the back in softies. Totally different thing going on with that though.

ever notice how long hard boots are?
or how they don't work as well at low angles, even the super soft ones?
You might not think I speak from experience but the fact is even if I am not I still have more figured out than you.
I've taken the time to listen to people who know and used my own observations. I was like you a couple years into this, had wacky ideas and thought I knew everything. I'm still a dick but a much more humble one.

[NateW]

Why are so many people here so hell bent on reinventing the wheel by trying to make hard boots work on boards or with angles they were never intended to?
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH LEARNING TO RIDE SOFTBOOTS FOR SOFTBOOT SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS???


It doesn't matter to me what hard boots were intended for. What does matter is that I enjoy them more than I enjoyed soft boots, even though I spend most of my time in the terrain park, and before they started making terrain parks I was planning every run around where the best natural jumps were, in hard boots.

I've never done BX, and I'm in no big hurry to, but it looks fun... if I ever do it, I will be in hard boots.



It's brutal with hard boots. Even alone, without somebody riding over the tail of your board, sucking up hard landings or landings where you're not centered in hardboots is 1, harder 2, more dangerous.


How many season did you spend hitting jumps in terrain parks before you came to that conclusion?



Why is it that some people can't understand that stiffness does not always help you to carve or even to go fast, nevermind to do any sort of all mountain riding?


I dunno, but maybe you can answer me this: why is it that some people can't understand that some other people have ridden hard and soft extensively and found that hard boots work better for them, for carving AND for hitting jumps and bump inside and outside the terrain park?

[Transistor Rhythm]

BTW Damian Sanders dropped the hardboots as well..........

.....and went back:

http://www.angrysnowboarder.com/2008/10/continuation-of-damian-sanders-sage.html

But not without drastic modification to the boots though.

You could probably make a hardboot that would be great for BX but stock hardboots are made for racing.

[philfell]

leverage for what? you have not mentioned what you are trying to lever.

also, after considering your analogy to highbacks, I think it is false anyway. with highbacks, the force of you trying to pivot on your heels is what is transferred to them. that puts the fulcrum at heel level, not edge level, meaning the riser does not help at all. On the other hand, a longer highback would help, but then its easier to get caught on a lift while hopping on, which brings up a new problem.

As I said earlier, risers will raise your center of gravity, making it easier to fall over and therefore get low, but there is no "leverage: increas


When you use a riser the pivot point is still at the edge of the board. The point on which you are using to tilt the board on edge is lifted further away from the edge. Making the lever longer......how hard it is to see this? You keep wanting a reason for this extra leverage, for straight discussion here I don't feel I need to explain the REASON to prove that it does CAUSE you to have extra leverage, this goes against basic scientific method.

But I guess you know more than all the companies who designed these products, and more than half of the World Cup SBX athletes who use these product, AND the entire World Cup Alpine field who also us plates........Congreats to out smarting the ENTIRE snowboard industry, oh wait you also outsmarted the entire ski industry who also us riser plates to increase leverage and to help prevent booting out.

[Phil]

apparently being coach of the year means you are always right and dont have to even try to listen to what others say



No, being coach of the year means that he has forgotten more about snowboarding than you will likely ever know. I realize that at your age, and being a college student (and apparently a bright one) you feel like you know a lot. A few days on a snowboard and a keen understanding of physics still does not put you in the same league. Trust me. You will not understand this until you

A. put in 1000+ days on a snowboard
B. get some advanced training on a board that will show you how much you really do not understand yet
and
C. ride with some people at the top level of our sport to see what you lack.

A guy like Phil Fell has trained with the best coaches and athletes and gets more days on board in two or three seasons than you have in your entire life.

My guess is that your arguments are coming down to semantics. You may be talking about different things while thinking you are talking about the same thing. The point is that you should be listening and trying to understand - asking the right questions instead of having the right answers. You listen to your professors at school, right? Do you try to prove them wrong, or do you ask questions to better understand what they are trying to tell you?

Listen, I am not trying to put you down. I just hope that you will understand that you sound like an intelligent guy. Hopefully, you will be wise enough to listen and ask the right questions so that you will also have a better understanding of snowboarding.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I spend waaay too much time trying to educate people that dont want to be educated, and dont listen to reason.Pot, meet kettle. Clearly you haven't spent any of that time considering that you might be wrong.

You listen to your professors at school, right? Do you try to prove them wrong, or do you ask questions to better understand what they are trying to tell you?I've met his type before. They only ask questions in class to prove how smart they are.

And Kex, believe it or not, there are plenty of guys here who are long past college and make their livings from physics. Lots of tech geeks here.

[Dave ESPI]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AE0BQXRXL._SL500_AA280_.gif
I ride 38 /28 on my one short BX race board and 44 / 32 on my other.
Some courses you can do it in HB and plates, others..... forget it, the air is sick and landings are not forgiving of you are off by a C-hair with your angle of attack or get bumped mid-flight by another racer.

[bobdea]

It doesn't matter to me what hard boots were intended for. What does matter is that I enjoy them more than I enjoyed soft boots, even though I spend most of my time in the terrain park, and before they started making terrain parks I was planning every run around where the best natural jumps were, in hard boots.

I've never done BX, and I'm in no big hurry to, but it looks fun... if I ever do it, I will be in hard boots.



How many season did you spend hitting jumps in terrain parks before you came to that conclusion?



I dunno, but maybe you can answer me this: why is it that some people can't understand that some other people have ridden hard and soft extensively and found that hard boots work better for them, for carving AND for hitting jumps and bump inside and outside the terrain park?

listen, you can do a ton of things in hard boots, I have and do. I used to ride powder on coilers, doneks, priors factory primes and sometimes a sims burner as well as ride park.
softboots work better for that application. If you plan to be competitive in BX, pipe or anything that involves landing airs it's highly unlikely that you'd be better off in hardboots.

I could run gates on my tele skis, would probably be faster if I learned to use alpine skis for that....

Even if you don't care about competition and want to be the best you can, hardboots can be a hinderance for a lot of things. Just the same as they are better for other things.

Many people here ride boards designed for softboots with plates and then lament about how crappy softboot gear is based on that they could not turn a 26 cm wide board with plates or they broke it or they tried riding softboots once and hated it. The other argument is I have softies and hate them, the answer to that is you either don't know how to ride them or you have gear that is crap or just not set up right.

I'm good enough on both types of gear to see what each work for......
Some people feel differently but you're in the minority, most who feel that way are not able to ride both types of gear well. There are a select bunch that plates work better for everything, I suspect most of them either have personal physical issues making them unique or they just have not put in the time.

I prefer plates most days, I will go everywhere on them.
I used to pull the alpine superiority bit too, it just does not hold water in most cases.
Alpine boards are better for turning on hard pack, this is where I am most of the time like most of you. thus, I prefer alpine.

[Coloradoking]

BTW, I played with the F2 sflex under my catek fr2s, that was heavy as all hell but felt good. I'm not racing BX tho and air with that much weight is scary.


my kessler w/ the hangls comes in at a burly 25ish pounds. i feel safer on something that rides like a tank on steroids

and by the way kex, the idea is that you increase pressure you can generate with less board angle so that you stand in a more comfortable, stable and controlled position. this only works if you are a good enough rider that you actually can keep your body in line with the board at high speed in a fast, low turn. the idea of having increased "leverage" is actually to increase the pressure on the fulcrum (the edge), not actual leverage that affects a secondary point.

ive been involved in this sport for most of my life, and trust me when i say not all of the terminology we use like "leverage" is used in its literal meaning. don't assume that you are automatically an expert in equipment just because you're a student. there are people here that have much more real world experience, and some that even have PhDs. please just learn, you'll have your turn to teach if you stay with this sport, but until you have some real world experience with this stuff i would advise that you just sit back and learn.

[bobdea]

my kessler w/ the hangls comes in at a burly 25ish pounds. i feel safer on something that rides like a tank on steroids
.

yeah, keeping it on the ground even then I'd like to shed as much weight as possible.

I've ridden a board with hangls, really sucks when you tumble with them heavy as ****

[torquecarver]

After some thinking about this imangine this:
Screw a one inch high "L" bracket on top of your board near the edge. Now try to tilt the board on edge using this "L" bracket, it would require quite a bit of effort. Now screw this same "L" bracket on a riser plate, it would now be easier to put the board on edge because although you are using the same size bracket you have increased you "LEVERAGE".
Does this jive with your science class?

Old school example...
Add Elfgen Multi-Twist plates, Burton PowerPlate aluminum cants and Flex bindings. Then spend the day practicing your leverage!! :D

(or... how to make size 12 boots work on a 'relatively' narrow board and avoid boot out. :biggthump)