no heelside @ all?

[caspercarver]

i have been riding my new metal snowboard. 163cm. heelside turns have always been my strong point until now. i cannot do a fully laid out heelside turn to save my life on this board. everything else is incredible, edge hold, stability, pop...but the second my body hits the snow, my edge is gone and i can't get it back. on all my other boards even if i lost edge contact, i could get it back at some point. not on this board. user error i am sure but i don't have a clue what i am doing wrong. toeside on this board is incredible, fully laid out as long as i want. my setup is 65 degrees front/60 rear. i am using the "gilmore bias". front boot is straight and rear boot is leaned as far forward as possible. stance is 16.5 inches and i am 5'10 tall. where do i start? any ideas?

[trailertrash]

Is that the same binding set up that you use on other similiar boards?

[caspercarver]

what i do on all my boards is rear foot is as close to edge as possible with no overhang. and then front foot is 5 degrees more. it is weird because the prior metal 173cm. i broke a few weeks ago, i had heelside laid out turns on the very first run. toeside was the issue with that board. so far the only changes i have made have been to the forward lean on the rear boot. i tried less and less forward lean and still no edge hold on fully laid out turns. up to laid out turns, edge hold is as good as i have ever had. :confused:

[Jack Michaud]

agreed, go back to a boot/binding setup that worked for you and go from there.

However in any case I'd say 16.5" is waaaay too narrow.

Also, which Prior is that? If the radius is significantly longer than your previous board, you're probably trying to tilt the board up too high too quickly with not enough speed. Too much boot forward lean can be part of that problem.

[GeoffV]

However in any case I'd say 16.5" is waaaay too narrow.
:eek::eek: wow, that is VERY narrow. I'm 5'11 and ride 20.5.

Your stance could be part of your problem, I bet your rear knee bangs up against the back of your front leg all the time. I use to get bruises back when I ran my old school narrow stance at 18.5.

[caspercarver]

i wish i know which prior this is. i just received it last week. i emailed prior about whether this board is the "new board" they are advertising now. i have not got an answer yet. this board does not match the stats of either the old or the new? i have always ridden a very narrow stance and have always liked it. when i got my Swoard last year, i tried riding the board the way they recommend and i just could not get comfortable with it (low angles and wide stance) reccently i changed back to the way i would normally ride and now i can do laid out turns heel/toeside, no problem. i can do laid out turns on my antique f2 beamer 160cm., toe and heel. that is why i find this so confusing?

[Bullwings]

is it possibly the prior b squared??

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23630&highlight=squared

looks like prior's version of the stubby. i wouldn't know anything though. just looks

[caspercarver]

i might add that the conditions here have been hero snow the last few weeks. it is not as if i was trying to make turns on boiler plate. :)

[Mike T]

He stated it was a metal 163... which is a 10m sidecut board. I personallly find that on tighter sidecuts like that, with the exception of Madd 158's, I can't get laid out because the board simply comes around too quickly.

[Jack Michaud]

It's not the B². Well anyway, I would say relax the boot fwd lean on the rear boot and go back to a setup you're used to before you judge the board.

However you said it yourself, it's user error, and I agree. This is a modern board built for modern technique. Narrow stances fell out of favor a good ~15 years ago. You'll probably have to take a step back before you can step forward again. Get some heel lift on the back foot, toe lift on the front foot, widen the stance, and head back to the greens and blues to get this sorted out. Don't worry, it will be fun. Ride with someone who's got it going on. At 5'10" with toe/heel lift you should be at 19" minimum.

[caspercarver]

but on my beamer which has a sidecut of 8.5/9.5 i can do laid out turns, very quick, yes. the F2 beamer is very flexible and the prior is not by comparison. i wonder if the board needs a break-in period and will get softer after sometime?

[Jack Michaud]

He stated it was a metal 163... which is a 10m sidecut board. I personallly find that on tighter sidecuts like that, with the exception of Madd 158's, I can't get laid out because the board simply comes around too quickly.

Oh, strange, I missed that. I would agree it's harder to lay out on a 10m board for that reason. It can be done, but you have to bring your A-game and be super aggressive.

[caspercarver]

i will be going out tomorrow, it is supposed to be sunny and conditions should be good. i will try a wider stance. thanks for the input.

[Jack Michaud]

i will be going out tomorrow, it is supposed to be sunny and conditions should be good. i will try a wider stance. thanks for the input.

If you only have flat bindings, you probably won't like going all the way to 19+". I like 3 degree cant disks front and rear. I'm 5'11" and I ride 19.5". The default starting setup should be pure toe lift on the front foot and pure heel lift on the back foot. A lot of people actually ride with a little outward cant too.

[caspercarver]

my td3s are 3 degree cant front and rear. i have never heard the term "pure heel/toe lift" what does this mean? thanks. :confused:

[trailertrash]

It means no inward or outward cant on the base plate.

[caspercarver]

i have no clue whether my bindings have inward or outward cant? i will have to do some research...:confused:

[Jack Michaud]

read this.

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/TD2_setup.cfm

[Mike T]

but on my beamer which has a sidecut of 8.5/9.5 i can do laid out turns, very quick, yes. the F2 beamer is very flexible and the prior is not by comparison. i wonder if the board needs a break-in period and will get softer after sometime?

Interesting - this would imply that your Prior is a custom flex or they have drastically changed the flex pattern on their metal boards. I had a 177 from a couple years ago, and it had been stiffened to 190 pounds, and it was still as soft as all get out in the middle and even softer on the ends.

[BlueB]

Is this the new 163 wide model? If so, it could be stiffer then 163 narrow, as Prior used to leave the core profile the same, which results in stiffer board. At least that was the case with a 183x21 that he had kicking around the shop for a while, and with Dave's 177x23 which is waaay stiffer then Roy's 177x19.5. The 173x19.5 I've got, and a 183x19.5 I've test-ridden are noodles (in a good way). All of the boards mentioned were the older metal top version.

A short stiff board is a bitch to EC, as you don't have much leverage over the short ends. Combined with tight SCR it would result in very dificult heel sides, where you don't have the fine adjustment from the ankles.

As for the stance width, I would go with what feels good for you. Wider always makes the board feel stiffer, at least for me. I ride 19.25 at 6' 180lbs 32" inseam.
I guess inseam and hips width are more important then o/a height of the person.

[carvedog]

........Narrow stances fell out of favor a good ~15 years ago. .......

I suppose next you are going to say that asyms are yesterday''s news too.

:nono::nono::nono:

[caspercarver]

the board has a 19.5cm waist., 26 cm nose(measured @ the widest point) and a 24 cm tail, close to 17mm of camber. it is stiffer than my Swoard 168 med flex and my off the shelf prior 187 metal, and last, my broken 173 prior metal.

[John H]

I tried a new Prior 169 metal board last week and it is considerably stiffer than last years board. Both boards are Chris H.'s boards and both were built to his weight specs. The new one rides very well, great edge hold and so easy to ride. It's my first experience with a metal board and now I understand what everyone likes so much about them.

[caspercarver]

i have to say i don't have much experience with boards that have a stiff flex. the only board i have had that was stiffer was a donek 160 race board (callen model)from last year which donek gave a 6.3 on there stiffness scale.

[BlueB]

Length (cm) 163
Effective Edge (cm) 145
Nose Length (cm) 21
Tail Length (cm) 6
Nose Width (cm) 24.6
Tail Width (cm) 24.2
Waist (cm) 19.5
Radius (m) 10
Taper (mm) 4
Insert Setbacks (cm) 2.5
Stance (in) 17"-22"

Those dimensions of yours are way out - a prototype?

[west carven]

howdy caspercarver
maybe the inserts are too setback? i seen your vid last year
with john and dave, you rip!. mount your bindings more forward.
maybe that will help.

[tenorman]

hi caspercarver

WEST CARVEN’s post got me thinking down an entirely different path.

i had a similar problem many years ago with a custom narrow 16 cm waisted prior wcr (based on mike kildevald’s 16 cm waisted 170cm prior he rode in the late 1990s.). it seemed to always want to turn in one direction. it finally dawned on me to check the ACCURACY of the insert placement. i discovered that they were off-centre (along the east/west axis.) i don’t have the board in front of me but i think it was about 4 or 5 millimeters closer to the toeside edge than the heelside edge so it kept wanting to turn toeside. if you need to know the exact measurements of the mispositioning of the inserts, then you can email my friend TOM EDSTRAND through his website at LANDYACHTZ LONGBOARDS as one of his employees (SAM WARSH) an excellent snowboard builder who used to work at OPTION SNOWBOARDS is trying to re-align the inserts for me. better if you ask his boss TOM EDSTRAND for permission before bothering one of his staff as i told SAM it was no rush and to take as much time as he needed—most skateboard companies are ramping up for the busy summer season right about now.

if your inserts are okay then i wouldn’t rule out your narrow stance quite yet. nothing wrong with a 16.5 INCH stance—especially if that’s what the board manufacturer recommends (examples: burton factory primes and older model f2s and older model nideckers.) i agreed with former bomberonline member WILLIAMBLAKE that some people are riding with ridiculously wide stances—typically a newbie on an old snowboard. i think if you need a wide stance then get a board that is built for a wide stance and vice versa. that being said i think most modern priors do require a wider stance so for someone who is 5’10 i’m guessing your particular prior board would require at least an 18 or 19 inch stance . i think it’s possible for a good rider (such as yourself based on what i see in your videos) to depart from the manufacturer’s recommended stance width but it probably means you have to work harder to make the board do what it’s supposed to do and could ride even better if you optimize (in this case, widen) your stance according to the recommendations of the board builder. bottom line: THE BEST ADVICE WILL BE FROM THE BOARD BUILDER AND NOT A BUNCH OF INTERNET CARVERS (MYSELF INCLUDED.)

finally in the highly unlikely event that it is user error the only thing i can suggest is maybe you are too aggressive? as your heelside turn keeps getting better each time i see it in a newer video you may just be OVERpushing the envelope. it could be that you are coming forward too fast and/or too much and don’t have enough weight on your BACK foot so the insufficiently weighted edge just starts wandering. this diving forward turn initiation is necessary for an older f2 beamer or older stiffer nosed race oriented board but your new board appears to have a more “friendlier” orientation (progressive flex/softer nose/tail for easier initiation/finishing etc.) which probably means a more centred and less race oriented “diving to the nose” style? or if you do still have to dive to the nose then you have to be more precise in FINISHING your turn by getting your weight sufficiently to the rear and at the proper moment.

you can test whether this is the case or not by deliberately trying to trigger the same heelside error repeatedly. go to a deserted part of the slope and keep making the same turn where you lose the edge until you can almost predict when it’s going to start skidding. as soon as the edge feels like it wants to skid then immediately rock back with all your weight onto the tail of your board (i.e. stomp on your back foot and try to get your ass into the back seat.) if this stomping on the back foot/rearward weight shift gets the sliding edge to hook up again then you have your answer. i hope i explained the “getting more weight on the back foot” idea properly. you may want to search the term BACK FOOT PIVOTING—bomberonline member ROB STEVENS once devoted almost an entire episode on his old snowboarding show the RIDE GUIDE on BACK FOOT PIVOTING so you might try to ask him directly for more help if this is indeed your problem.

[madlibs69]

The major contributor to you problem is the narrow stance. As mentioned, being too narrow will without question allow the knees to run into each other preventing you from getting lower. A narrow stance will also make it more difficult to equally pressure the edges along the entire length of the board. Jack nailed it pretty good with his response...the use of toe or heel lift will dictate how wide or narrow you stance will be. The stiffness of your boots will also have a part of this. Bindings set flat will generally use a narrower stance...add heel or toe lift and it will be more comfortable to widen the stance. At 5'10" not knowing your inseam, try to get up to a stance width of at least 19", pref. 19 1/2 or 19 3/4. Use rear heel lift close to max and for the front use little or no toe lift. Avoid canting unless needed. Set your rear boot forward lean almost maxed and ride your front boot forward lean in the free flex position. Spot your heel side turn coming off the toeside transition and dont forget to square the hips.

[caspercarver]

hi caspercarver

WEST CARVEN’s post got me thinking down an entirely different path.

i had a similar problem many years ago with a custom narrow 16 cm waisted prior wcr (based on mike kildevald’s 16 cm waisted 170cm prior he rode in the late 1990s.). it seemed to always want to turn in one direction. it finally dawned on me to check the ACCURACY of the insert placement. i discovered that they were off-centre (along the east/west axis.) i don’t have the board in front of me but i think it was about 4 or 5 millimeters closer to the toeside edge than the heelside edge so it kept wanting to turn toeside. if you need to know the exact measurements of the mispositioning of the inserts, then you can email my friend TOM EDSTRAND through his website at LANDYACHTZ LONGBOARDS as one of his employees (SAM WARSH) an excellent snowboard builder who used to work at OPTION SNOWBOARDS is trying to re-align the inserts for me. better if you ask his boss TOM EDSTRAND for permission before bothering one of his staff as i told SAM it was no rush and to take as much time as he needed—most skateboard companies are ramping up for the busy summer season right about now.

if your inserts are okay then i wouldn’t rule out your narrow stance quite yet. nothing wrong with a 16.5 centimeter stance—especially if that’s what the board manufacturer recommends (examples: burton factory primes and older model f2s and older model nideckers.) i agreed with former bomberonline member WILLIAMBLAKE that some people are riding with ridiculously wide stances—typically a newbie on an old snowboard. i think if you need a wide stance then get a board that is built for a wide stance and vice versa. that being said i think most modern priors do require a wider stance so for someone who is 5’10 i’m guessing your particular prior board would require at least an 18 or 19 inch stance . i think it’s possible for a good rider (such as yourself based on what i see in your videos) to depart from the manufacturer’s recommended stance width but it probably means you have to work harder to make the board do what it’s supposed to do and could ride even better if you optimize (in this case, widen) your stance according to the recommendations of the board builder. bottom line: THE BEST ADVICE WILL BE FROM THE BOARD BUILDER AND NOT A BUNCH OF INTERNET CARVERS (MYSELF INCLUDED.)

finally in the highly unlikely event that it is user error the only thing i can suggest is maybe you are too aggressive? as your heelside turn keeps getting better each time i see it in a newer video you may just be OVERpushing the envelope. it could be that you are coming forward too fast and/or too much and don’t have enough weight on your BACK foot so the insufficiently weighted edge just starts wandering. this diving forward turn initiation is necessary for an older f2 beamer or older stiffer nosed race oriented board but your new board appears to have a more “friendlier” orientation (progressive flex/softer nose/tail for easier initiation/finishing etc.) which probably means a more centred and less race oriented “diving to the nose” style? or if you do still have to dive to the nose then you have to be more precise in FINISHING your turn by getting your weight sufficiently to the rear and at the proper moment.

you can test whether this is the case or not by deliberately trying to trigger the same heelside error repeatedly. go to a deserted part of the slope and keep making the same turn where you lose the edge until you can almost predict when it’s going to start skidding. as soon as the edge feels like it wants to skid then immediately rock back with all your weight onto the tail of your board (i.e. stomp on your back foot and try to get your ass into the back seat.) if this stomping on the back foot/rearward weight shift gets the sliding edge to hook up again then you have your answer. i hope i explained the “getting more weight on the back foot” idea properly. you may want to search the term BACK FOOT PIVOTING—bomberonline member ROB STEVENS once devoted almost an entire episode on his old snowboarding show the RIDE GUIDE on BACK FOOT PIVOTING so you might try to ask him directly for more help if this is indeed your problem.
i checked the inserts and they are correct. still have not heard from prior. your right about leaning way into the nose. it seems as i put more and more forward lean into the rear boot (currently as much as possible) the boards i am riding turn quicker and i am leaning into the nose to try and turn as sharp as possible. i would say typically the only time i am centered is when i am exhausted. i will definitely put these suggestions to work tomorrow. :biggthump

[corey_dyck]

Chris Prior is in Aspen right now at SES, he probably won't see any emails until next week.

Make sure you haven't accidentally made a techique change. I was having major troubles on my heelsides this season until I got some pictures of me while riding. It turns out I was counter-rotating my hips and "sitting on the toilet". Fixed that bad habit and I'm riding better than ever.

[BadBrad]

I tried a new Prior 169 metal board last week and it is considerably stiffer than last years board. Both boards are Chris H.'s boards and both were built to his weight specs. The new one rides very well, great edge hold and so easy to ride. It's my first experience with a metal board and now I understand what everyone likes so much about them.

I also thought the new ones felt a little stiffer and livelier, but I didn't have a whole lot of experience to say for sure. I test rode one of the older metal-top WCRs (a 173) last year, and it felt kind of dead and unresponsive to me. It could have been the snow conditions or the fact that I had just demo'd a super lively Donek FCII, but that was my impression. But I bought a new '09 WCR metal 173 and I love it. It still isn't super lively, but it does feel livelier than the older one, and it is so easy to ride. It initiates and releases turns so easily, really holds an edge well, and is undisturbed by crud and variable surfaces.

I don't know the answer to your problem, but here are a few data points from me on stance widths.

- I used to ride 16-17" stance widths until last year, with Burton plates pretty much flat (just a tiny bit of front toe and rear heel lift). These were the reference stances for the Burton boards (UP 156 and Alp 156) and were very confortable to me.

- I got some used TD2s for my WCR 173, and I set them up at 19.3" stance width with 3* disks front and rear. Mostly toe/heel lift, but also a slight bit of inward canting. I am only 5'7", but I have long legs for my height (32" inseam). This wider stance feels good to me with the 3* disks or with 3* front & 6* rear. This is the reference (center) stance for the Prior boards. Their specs say the range is 17-22", but my measurements show 16.5 - 21.5 on both my WCRM and 4WD.

- On my 4WD 164 I initiall tried 19.3" with the Burton plates pretty much flat, and I got wavy heelside turns. I think the wider stance and lack of cant/lift caused me to twist the board on heelsides. I installed a 7* cant/lift on the rear and it now works great at 19.3".

- On my Madd 158 I tried widths in the 18.5-19" range, but even with the 3* disks it didn't seem to work as well on that board as a narrow stance did. I think it is around 18" now, which is still wider than the center stance on that board. My theory is that the Madd 158 has a small sweet spot and too wide a stance puts you outside of that sweet spot. Also, you lose leverage to bend the board with a wider stance, and I need the leverage with that very stiff board. A bigger or stronger rider could probably use a wider stance more effectively.

[Hotbeans]

try this next time (trailing hand touching front cuff is helpful):
When my heelsides are either washing out or ocillating, I can fix them right up and tight by pointing both hands over the nose farther up into the turn (I ride goofy, so my left hand usually winds up at about the 12:30, 1 o'clock position to the nose of the board) and really moving my cg back over my rear foot (keeping it over the edge). This puts me in a tight, seated position where my butt is ~1.5 ft over the rear of the board, centered over the edge. Heelside just locks right up. I've learned to take this a step further and extend my legs as I'm getting into the arc, throw my hands towards the 2 o'clock position, and VOILA! a laid out carve results!

[Dr D]

riding the x3 gets a little wierd on occasion. usually when the board is trying to turn tighter than I am. I found that pressuring the front foot and kinda visualizing flattening the board out works really well when I am trying for longer laid out turns..

It showed me how much I tend to ride with my back leg. the metal takes enough vibration out of the equation that you notice more edge stuff.

play with it shifting your weight back and forth and pressuring the sole of the front and back boot etc. I bet you just haven't found the sweet spot:biggthump

[caspercarver]

wow what a difference a few adjustments will make:). i started by changing my angles lower, front 60/rear 58. i left the rear binding where it was and moved the front binding one notch forward on every other run. as the stance got wider i had more and more heelside, on the toeside i don't think i have ever had my face that close to snow. i am going to have to be careful i don't knock any teeth out! three hours later and i was exhausted and ended up with a 19 inch stance. i feel there was not a difference between 18 and 19 in performance and 19 felt really awkward. tomorrow will put it back to 18. what do think about my placement of the bindings wider but forward? do think i should have kept the stance centered? i not saying i didn't blow out a few times on the heelside but obvisciouly there is going to be a bit of a learning curve here.:biggthump

[Jack Michaud]

Awesome! What is your inseam? I would think with 3 degree disks front and rear that 19" could work, but if you have shorter legs maybe not. Moving the front binding forward is a common choice, don't worry about it.