Carving on Ice

[Erik J]

I ride mostly ice at my home mountain here on the East Coast.
I'm always looking to improve so I'd like to get a thread going on what people have found to best handle hard conditions.

Looking for technique mostly, there are quite a few best board threads already.

What are the fine details that you have found to top off your carving skill - all the little things that help to really rail?

[JJFluff]

This probably won't help much as far as describing technique but I find the days I struggle are the days that I don't go for it.

Being tentative entering a turn never works out right. You need to have confidence entering and drive into the turn even on the hard stuff that you think might cause you to lose the edge. When you hold back your body position is wrong and not where it needs to be. The place where it is on those perfect snow days.

So my best advise, be confident and trust the edge, ride consistently both on bulletproof and soft groom.

[carvedog]

early, round, smooth. And lots of retraction at the bottom of the turn.
not that we really have that much ice out here.

[Erik J]

This probably won't help much as far as describing technique but I find the days I struggle are the days that I don't go for it.

Being tentative entering a turn never works out right. You need to have confidence entering and drive into the turn even on the hard stuff that you think might cause you to lose the edge. When you hold back your body position is wrong and not where it needs to be. The place where it is on those perfect snow days.

So my best advise, be confident and trust the edge, ride consistently both on bulletproof and soft groom.

Brain techniques counts for everything! I think you have very sound advice here.

Just yesterday I noticed that I wasn't quite "on it", so I stopped, took a look around, took a deep breath. On the very next turn I noticed that I wasn't looking into the turns enough. I found that just simply looking farther into the turn, my rear leg automatically stayed with the turn more, and kind of "stuck" the last 1/3 of the turn. Yet another lesson for me that focus is everything.

[Jack Michaud]

This post will get harpooned for sure. The only way I can get it done on ice on toeside is to really emphasize dropping the hip in and down, leveling the shoulders, and yes, facing the nose. If my hip isn't down, it's game over. Only way I can see to get there is facing the nose. My right hand (I'm goofy) usually ends up on the side of my front boot cuff. Heeside is less of an issue, and I'm more of a face the bindings guy on that side.

But yeah, take a shorter board out of the quiver, minimize time in transitions, get turns started early, and drop the hammer. Gotta commit early, fully, and drive hard. If you let the board run at all, it will get going too fast and then you're done.

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

[Erik J]

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

Thanks Jack, I'm comfortable on ice but I'd like to get better.

[queequeg]

early, round, smooth. And lots of retraction at the bottom of the turn.

I find that works well for me, seems to me that once your edge is set on the ice, it is in there pretty hard so the problems I encounter are usually during the exit stage because the edges feel "sticky" during the release when your body is traveling back over the edge of your board and so it isn't as easy to guide the board beneath you with the same certainty and confidence. If you unweight the board faster and more aggressively by retracting more thoroughly and rapidly, this seems like less of a problem.

Otherwise it seems to me that when I'm riding on ice and doing well it is because I am initiating my turns smoothly, and not too aggressively. It seems to me that you have to feed the board into the turn very accurately when you initiate, but once you are in the turn you can still punch out the turn pretty hard. Whenever I'm riding on ice and not doing well at it, it feels like the problem is always in my initiation - standing up too tall, not paying attention to the feedback the edge is giving me, not giving my sidecut radius the time to track into its groove before pushing against the board.

And yeah - Angulation reeeeaaaally affects my riding on ice too ... I think it was a really icy day when I first figured out what was so magical about proper angulation. Night and day. All day I couldn't do a damn thing right, and I remembered reading jacks angulation exercises where you are reaching for the boot and tried it - I've never seen a single technical detail have such a profound on my performance. Angulation is pure magic. Before that I just didn't get what was so important about angulation.

But this is an area where I could still use a lot of attention. Some days I can dial it on ice, other days ... not so much. And yeah, from what I've heard you're the one that should be providing the advice on this subject!

[Mike T]

This post will get harpooned for sure. The only way I can get it done on ice on toeside is to really emphasize dropping the hip in and down, leveling the shoulders, and yes, facing the nose. If my hip isn't down, it's game over. Only way I can see to get there is facing the nose. My right hand (I'm goofy) usually ends up on the side of my front boot cuff. Heeside is less of an issue, and I'm more of a face the bindings guy on that side.


If you face the bindings on I believe it is still possible to drop the hip, it's just that if you drop the hip from that position then you're dropping it behind the waist of the board rather then even with it. Does having that hip behdin the waist cause problems? This is where I need expert help... seems like it should still work...

What's your opinion on bringing the "heelside hand" (right if goofy, left if regular") across the board? In your favorite heelside pic the toeside hand is well across the board. On toeside it seems to me that bringing the heelside hand across the board (and down) helps keep the shoulders level hip down position nicely, but doing it quickly (i.e. as quickly as you need to for ice carving) is a skill that I have not yet mastered.

Edit: when I say across the board, I mean "bring the hand past the boot rather than touching it". Essentially, the toeside analog of what you;re doing heelside in your avatar.

[Jeffrey Day]

Not that I believe for a second Erik J really has trouble on ice. :D

You know Jack, I was thinking the same thing!

Eric, I've seen you ride @ Sugarloaf on conditions that I stuggle with, and probably always will, and you were rippin' it!

This is a great topic. Like you, I'd love to get better at carving on ice. Sh!t, I'd be happy to get more proficient(@ spelling!) on skied off, end of day snow.

[Jack Michaud]

What's your opinion on bringing the "heelside hand" (right if goofy, left if regular") across the board? In your favorite heelside pic the toeside hand is well across the board. On toeside it seems to me that bringing the heelside hand across the board (and down) helps keep the shoulders level hip down position nicely, but doing it quickly (i.e. as quickly as you need to for ice carving) is a skill that I have not yet mastered.

Edit: when I say across the board, I mean "bring the hand past the boot rather than touching it". Essentially, the toeside analog of what you;re doing heelside in your avatar.

I only do that when I'm really trying to lay it out on toeside, on good snow. When trying to be careful on ice, I think that move is not a wise one. Too easy to end up with your chest facing the snow that way, an then you're effed.

[Hotbeans]

I'll offer this up for comment:
When I'm on ice, I've got two common issues that, if I'm NOT doing this, I wash out, skid, or hop the edge (which REALLy f(&k'd up my ankle the two weeks ago when I was on the Virus. Simply due to too much compression force when the edge caught again..and again..and again. still hurts.)
1. reaching for the boot cuff (which I correlate to proper angulation)
2. maintaining my cg directly over the carving edge in a *mostly* seated position. IE: low and stacked.
When I'm on the coiler (short-radius board), I can use my legs to kind of pop up out of the carve during transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex while feeding the board through the turn. Tricky because keeping my cg directly over the edge while all this is going on typically requires more finesse/balance than I've got going on at the moment. Fear of ankle/faceplanting keeps the focus on high alert.:eek:

[KingCrimson]

transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex
Can you clarify where in the turn you start to compress?

This is a bit like what I was talking about in the EC thread.

I was taught that carving anything can be viewed as a merrygoround. As the horses go around, they move up and down. Synchronize this properly with where you are in the turn, and you'll be railing.

This picture from BoosterTwo in Jack's "Cross Over, Cross Under, Cross Through" shows the rider just past the apex of the turn, beginning to compress (the first capture shows near-full extension) so that he has somewhere to go when he unweights the board, shown by the little "wheelie"

This is an issue I still have. I believe I am still doing cross-over turns. Simply rolling the knees over the board would do nothing for me in a turn; my merrygoround timing is off.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

http://bomberonline.com///images/crossthrough.jpg

[Hotbeans]

Thoughts? That pic illustrates a Hero-Snow Hoedown! I thought we were talking about riding ice?!!
I start my compression once the edge 'finds' it's track in the carve and I have my balance centered. So, probably first 1/8 or 1/6 into the turn. I start to come out of it when my cg is moving rearward (but still over edge) after apex getting ready for extension for transition (maybe 3/4ths or 4/5ths through 'half-c' carve?). I (and this may only apply to my riding!) extend my legs a bit to unweight the edge, transition cg forward (or board back if you like), roll board over to next edge, gradually weight new front edge.

[Pow]

I find the most important part about riding ice is to angulate! and also putting much more cross-under into the cross-through helps as well. I always miss the "totally laid" feeling when im riding ice, but anything close to a double arm carve is impossible to do on ice with any confidence. I find that i wind up bringing my board to my inside hand and my outside hand basically never touches the snow because my body stays above the board and doesnt extend outside like we tend to do in good snow. Not to doubt your ability but i dont think youll ever successfully rail like in your avatar picture on ice, Eric! Thats snow style, not ice;)

[KingCrimson]

Thoughts? That pic illustrates a Hero-Snow Hoedown! I thought we were talking about riding ice?!!
I start my compression once the edge 'finds' it's track in the carve and I have my balance centered. So, probably first 1/8 or 1/6 into the turn. I start to come out of it when my cg is moving rearward (but still over edge) after apex getting ready for extension for transition (maybe 3/4ths or 4/5ths through 'half-c' carve?). I (and this may only apply to my riding!) extend my legs a bit to unweight the edge, transition cg forward (or board back if you like), roll board over to next edge, gradually weight new front edge.

Snow conditions aside, it does show angulation and cross through, along with weighting.

See this is where I'm confused. You unweight with extension, the rider in the photo clearly unweights with retraction.

Also, you extend AFTER the apex, not before, which is how I have been taught. Also, you get forward before the edge change? I always use the tail to throw me into the next turn. Just ask any of the SoCal carvers, sometimes I end up rocketing skywards and crash down :biggthump

So many ways to get down the mountain and they all work. Man, carving is cool.

[Pow]

you anywhere near albany this friday? ill be riding Jiminy peak on the boarder of Mass tomorrow. That'll definately have some ice you can experiment with!

ohh, and judging by your textbook carving images on BOL, the only tweak that would benefit you on ice in my opinion is to bring your upper body in and up and keep it over your board instead of extending it out, more simmilar to mike T's body position in his avatar photo.

[Ian M]

See this is where I'm confused. You unweight with extension, the rider in the photo clearly unweights with retraction.

Also, you extend AFTER the apex, not before, which is how I have been taught. Also, you get forward before the edge change? I always use the tail to throw me into the next turn. Just ask any of the SoCal carvers, sometimes I end up rocketing skywards and crash down :biggthump

Maybe this will help clarify...when I see ice or hard snow, I just crouch straight down, lowering my shoulders and body before starting any carving. Then when I initiate the carve, I am extending my legs out, adding pressure until the apex. Lots of angulation here through the apex, then legs pull the board back toward me and all I'm thinking about is how low my shoulders were at the beginning. The board crosses under me with my legs very compressed, shoulders not coming much above where they were in the carve.

In my head it is so much simpler, because all I think about is keeping my shoulders low. Everything else is auto. Add to that Carvedog's "early, round, smooth" advice, and it definitely works for me! Make any sense?

[KingCrimson]

Understand 100% The thing is, on the GS board, I cannot carve if I'm not like that. The board will not hook up, and if it does, well, good luck decambering it! Again, that video of me a month ago shows a good way to make a badass board seem very boring. If I have learned anything about carving, that is it.

It works for me, it's fun being that low and feeling just plain aggressive. I feel like I'm playing defensive line for 4 hours straight but never get hurt. I LOVE that sensation of being low.

This is what confused me about what Hotbeans was talking about, he pretty much seems to be the opposite. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

[Jack Michaud]

1. reaching for the boot cuff (which I correlate to proper angulation)
yes.

2. maintaining my cg directly over the carving edge in a *mostly* seated position. IE: low and stacked.
When I'm on the coiler (short-radius board), I can use my legs to kind of pop up out of the carve during transitions and then squat (compress) down into the apex while feeding the board through the turn. Tricky because keeping my cg directly over the edge while all this is going on typically requires more finesse/balance than I've got going on at the moment. Fear of ankle/faceplanting keeps the focus on high alert.:eek:

You don't want to do this on ice. Big up-and-down motions upset your cg and make it tougher to maintain balance. Cross-through keeps your cg quiet and steady, like the suspension of a car.

[Hotbeans]

Jack, I hear what your saying on this and I agree. For me, though, this is a different tool to use. I relate your reference to what I term "surf-style" and does certainly involve smooth, quiet upper body movements. Maybe if I describe it as keeping low ("sitting in the back seat") and rolling the board underneath me to make the transitions with very little dynamic movements? (just using angulation of knee's and hips to transition from edge to edge.)
I also have found my previous description useful in that 'compressing' in the apex seems to lock in the edge much better (read: higher G's!) and the shift of cg rearwards and then extending allows for a much more dynamic (tighter, faster) carve. If I pull it off correctly, I can pop out of the carve and just feel the edge *crunch* into the next turn.
I really need someone who can shoot a decent vid segment. Might try tomorrow.

[John Gilmour]

Stay vertically over the edge in all phases of the turn. It's a bit tricky a sort of contortionist move...especially for crossing under turns.

Make sure your cants + toe heel lift are perfect. And I mean perfect. Consistent Ice is the perfect opportunity to dial in your bindings for their optimal settings.

Tuned edges- of course don't skid at all -to keep them sharp.

Level shoulders.

be changing direction before the fall line.

[Erik J]

Make sure your cants + toe heel lift are perfect. And I mean perfect. Consistent Ice is the perfect opportunity to dial in your bindings for their optimal settings.


Any do-it-yourself suggestions that I could use to dial in better?

I'm on AF600's (M28), Madd 170 and TD1's with 3 deg toe lift, 6 deg heel lift about 65 deg front and back (basically keeping my toe and heel just over the edge). I have no canting - my boots are bolted together at the hinge. I ride in walk mode.

Would you explain the "Gilmour bias" a little more?

[John Gilmour]

After I've been dialing in so many people with TD1's on 170's you likely are close to it. Just understand that by the time the snow that is being cut reaches your rear toe... you could hang over a bit more without booting out as opposed to your front heel. Because there is less edge cutting in front of your lead heel.

Move your toe and heel carriages about 1-2 (preferably 2) holes closer to the toe side edge on your rear boot and flatten to about 60- 62 degrees. (Look carefully at your binding lug overhand on your td1's you can go a little flatter with Cateks (and you can add some lift and cant).. which would give you a bit more power... its just that you probably should be on a 18.5-19.5 wide board with 28.0 to be optimized. Likely 19.0.

The TD3s might also solve your problem with the bail lugs. I think... but I have to see one to tell.

Move your front boot carriages about 1 hole closer to the heel side edge and hopefully you won't boot out at all. Try not to go over 67 degrees. if you can drop to 63 degrees... that likely would be better. Its worth it to belt sand your rear boot tip a bit...if you feel so inclined.

Now heel the board over on the carpet flexed so the belly is on contact.. you should be able to get the board over to 55-60 degrees without boot out.

That's it...pretty simple.

Now ride with more bias in your riding ie. use the rear toe more for toe side and your front heel more for heelside.

The board becomes two mini siamese snowblades.... the heelside one centered under your front heel and the toe side one centered under you 4th toe.

As you shift your weight to front heel and rear toe... be aware that you feed the dollar differently for each. The rear toe dollar feed is more radical. You also have a lot of board to feed in from the front during a toe side turn....it feels weird.."alien" at first.. but then is super effective once you get the hang of it.

This "Gilmour Bias" helps even more with soft boots....and really is needed if you expect to power up at all with soft boots.

since each pressure point is the start of the perfect board curve.. you have to use the other foot to feed the rest of the board into that curve you started. DO THIS BEFORE YOU HIT THE FALL LINE.

So for the heelside cheat.... put your back hand on your rear boot..
for toeside cheat put your lead hand on your front boot and press down during a carve.

Keeping your bias in your boot cuffs means slightly more forward lean in your rear boot and less in your front. that way your leg shaft of your rear foot is closer to the toe edge and your front leg shaft is closer to the heel edge..

Are you in Aspen?..I could show you instead..

"Gilmour Bias" also makes it easier to balance laterally on the board... you don't feel like you are riding a thin center line tightrope.. instead it makes the tightrope wider in feeling while making the board feel narrower ... you can ride the board "Middleless" and directly transfer your weight to the edge by stepping... and make the middle of a fat board start to disappear. You know the feeling of carving a jet ski or sea-doo back and forth???.... it's that steeping feeling... but not as exaggerated.

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, I hear what your saying on this and I agree. For me, though, this is a different tool to use. I relate your reference to what I term "surf-style" and does certainly involve smooth, quiet upper body movements. Maybe if I describe it as keeping low ("sitting in the back seat") and rolling the board underneath me to make the transitions with very little dynamic movements? (just using angulation of knee's and hips to transition from edge to edge.)
I also have found my previous description useful in that 'compressing' in the apex seems to lock in the edge much better (read: higher G's!) and the shift of cg rearwards and then extending allows for a much more dynamic (tighter, faster) carve. If I pull it off correctly, I can pop out of the carve and just feel the edge *crunch* into the next turn.
I really need someone who can shoot a decent vid segment. Might try tomorrow.

I *think* you're talking about a cross-over transition there. If you can pull it off on ice, then great. It's a fun way to ride and as you surely know you can even get air between turns this way. However, a cross-through transition results in the least displacement of the cg, and therefore greater stability, which will be helpful on ice. This is the goal of all suspension systems. Cross-through requires compressing at the turn transition (edge change), like in that sequence of boostertwo.

[John Gilmour]

............+1


cross unders on a short board w/ sc tight radius is a really easy way to control speed w/o dulling your edges on ice and frozen granular

[Ian M]

a cross-through transition results in the least displacement of the cg, and therefore greater stability, which will be helpful on ice.

Is this what I was trying to describe, Jack?

[BlueB]

I'm by no means a good ice rider, so take this with a grain of salt...
Cross over works better for me. It allows me to really hammer on the edge as I came out of the transition. Then I sink through the turn (actually reducing or controling the pressure). This also brings my CG closer and closer to the board, reducing the chances for wash-out, without need for excessive hip/waist angulation.

[Erik J]

So I just got back from riding - total hero snow, absolutely perfect cord. I'm going to start an ice thread every day if that's the voodoo it takes to get perfect snow.

I'm going to try the Gilmour bias this weekend. I haven't tweaked my setup in a while so I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks everyone for all the input. Keep it coming.

[Jack Michaud]

Is this what I was trying to describe, Jack?

Yeah. Keeping the elevation of the center of gravity as constant as possible is the primary goal of any vehicle suspension system. Cross-over achieves the opposite of that. It's possible to do cross-over on very firm conditions, but I'm not seeing it on real ice.

[benttech]

Kinda off track here...

Today I had ice in the morning and actually managed quite well by grabbing my boots and keeping very low, but then temps jumped up and a little rain started to fall, so by 11am the snow was very very wet and slushly, we're talking about those huge wet piled up mounds everywhere interspaced with patches of ice.

My favorite blue/black run turned into hell, I just couldnt do it. I couldnt keep the board on edge since as soon as I hit a bit wet pile of snow I just went flying, or if I did make it through, then a patch of ice would make me go skidding.

This was on a 175 Swoard and later 172 Axxess, Im sure if I had a smaller 160ish board I couldve done it, but is there any technique for larger boards on these kinds of days?

[valsam]

After a day of raining and +++ temperatures and then the next day is way below 0 and there is no snow but ice and i mean ice like in an ice skating ring can anybody realy carve or even try to carve without geting killed?

[GeoffV]

1st Fine tuned edge (most important factor)
You can toss everything else out the window if you don't have a well tuned edge.

I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me.
Just to set the stage...
I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid.

I was with my brother riding up the lift we looked down in shock and saw nothing but a sheet of ice everywhere. People where sliding and falling all over the place. My brother and I looked at each other and said, this is crazy we are going to kill ourselves.. But we had paid $70 plus for a ticket and were going to get our monies worth.

We headed (actually I should say slid over the ice) to The North Face lift to get away from the crowds. It was like riding on a ice skating rink, probably the worst conditions I have ever been on in my 22 years of riding.

I was riding my Madd 170, I looked down the North Face trail and thought to myself I'm going to kill myself. I knew I'd have to angulate hard, pressure the nose to set the edge and cross-under to get my board back on edge again as fast as possible. But I had to commit 100% to doing that and there in was my problem and fear.

I linked a few turns picked up speed and panicked, lost my form and angulation and immediately started to shatter and lose grip. The next run down I made a decision to commit every turn. It was exhausting, terrifying and yet a huge rush for me. I was absolutely amazed that I could carve on a sheet of ice. The only time I would lose edge was when I was not angulated enough, didn't cross-under fast enough or wasn't pressuring the edge hard enough. I really had to be over the board, there was no sitting back at all.

At one point I stopped to look and see what kind of carves I was leaving in the ice, I could barley see a line in the ice.
I think what made this carve-able for me was that the surface was, yes solid ice, but also smooth and not rutted up.

It was probably one of the most difficult days I've ever had carving, but I learned a lot about carving on a steep icy slope.

Before that day I use to tighten up and panic when I saw ice. Now I angulate, pressure the edge and make sure my carve is set when I hit the ice.
Once you panic and tense up you are going down.

I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence.

[Jack Michaud]

After a day of raining and +++ temperatures and then the next day is way below 0 and there is no snow but ice and i mean ice like in an ice skating ring can anybody realy carve or even try to carve without geting killed?

depends on when they groom it. If they groom after the freeze, yeah, it can be carveable. My avatar is actually on those conditions, on a 158. If they groom the wet stuff and then it freezes, forget it. Hit the XC trails or go play Wii!

+1 on what Geoff said about committing 100%.

[yyzcanuck]

Dear Penthouse... I never thought all these letters were real until
I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me.
Just to set the stage...
I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid.
...
I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence.

Just replace the words "on ice" with "with a hot babe" and the story is complete!

[John Gilmour]

narrow decks work better for cutting through crud tot eh base... High edge angles help too.

[jtslalom]

I'm jumping in this thread late so bare with me. Having many days riding with EricJ (12 or so) I can attest that he really doesn't have much trouble riding icy conditions. My experience is a little different than most people since I only ride soft boots now. The one thing I have noticed about riding icy slopes is the fact that it is definately easier to do on a hard deck with hard boots than a soft deck with soft boots. I think that the ability to initially drive your knees then hips into the turn with complete stability throughout the whole turn is easier achieved on a hard deck provided you have the correct technique. I also think that as mentioned some where above it takes balls. That initial knee drive must occur without hesitation and the hips must drop down quickly after.

One thing I also think is important is binding angles. When I rode hard boots I had 63 front 66 back. I think the steeper the angles the more it allows your hips to get involved with the turn. The closer your hips get to the snow the greater the board/snow angle can occur. As written in one of the tech articles this allows for a tighter turn, a little more speed within that turn and greater pressure exerted on the edge provided your upper body is in correct position.

When angles are down around 45 or so like mine are now you tend to really on ankle flexion and less on the angle of your hips to upper body. This can cause on heelside turns to drop your butt more towards the inside of the turn and on toeside a little more in the air. Both these movements cause less pressure on the edge and therefore more difficult to drive good turns in ice.

All in all I found my best days of riding icy slopes were on my 153 cm volkl Renntiger with 66/69 binding angles. My turns were initiated quick and the board came around quick as I got my hips lower and lower throughout the turn. By the end my knees sometimes hit my chest as I was slightly turned uphill entering my next turn.

[Fastskiguy]

One thing I also think is important is binding angles. When I rode hard boots I had 63 front 66 back. I think the steeper the angles the more it allows your hips to get involved with the turn. The closer your hips get to the snow the greater the board/snow angle can occur. As written in one of the tech articles this allows for a tighter turn, a little more speed within that turn and greater pressure exerted on the edge provided your upper body is in correct position.

Gotta agree, especially for toesides, steeper boot angles let you get your hip more inside.

[stevo]

1st Fine tuned edge (most important factor)
You can toss everything else out the window if you don't have a well tuned edge.

I had an eye opening experience about 4 years ago on ice and a major break through for me.
Just to set the stage...
I was at Mt. Snow right after Christmas in 2005 I think . It had been really warm and raining during Christmas, the following day the temps dropped drastically and everything froze over solid.

I was with my brother riding up the lift we looked down in shock and saw nothing but a sheet of ice everywhere. People where sliding and falling all over the place. My brother and I looked at each other and said, this is crazy we are going to kill ourselves.. But we had paid $70 plus for a ticket and were going to get our monies worth.

We headed (actually I should say slid over the ice) to The North Face lift to get away from the crowds. It was like riding on a ice skating rink, probably the worst conditions I have ever been on in my 22 years of riding.

I was riding my Madd 170, I looked down the North Face trail and thought to myself I'm going to kill myself. I knew I'd have to angulate hard, pressure the nose to set the edge and cross-under to get my board back on edge again as fast as possible. But I had to commit 100% to doing that and there in was my problem and fear.

I linked a few turns picked up speed and panicked, lost my form and angulation and immediately started to shatter and lose grip. The next run down I made a decision to commit every turn. It was exhausting, terrifying and yet a huge rush for me. I was absolutely amazed that I could carve on a sheet of ice. The only time I would lose edge was when I was not angulated enough, didn't cross-under fast enough or wasn't pressuring the edge hard enough. I really had to be over the board, there was no sitting back at all.

At one point I stopped to look and see what kind of carves I was leaving in the ice, I could barley see a line in the ice.
I think what made this carve-able for me was that the surface was, yes solid ice, but also smooth and not rutted up.

It was probably one of the most difficult days I've ever had carving, but I learned a lot about carving on a steep icy slope.

Before that day I use to tighten up and panic when I saw ice. Now I angulate, pressure the edge and make sure my carve is set when I hit the ice.
Once you panic and tense up you are going down.

I still look back to that day as a huge jump in my carving skills and confidence.




GV, nice post. i've only been at this 4 years or so, i appreciate you sharing the real life experience

[Fastskiguy]

Things that we do that we shouldn't do LOL
a stiffen up so your body is rigid
b lean back over your back food
c reach for the snow by bending at the waist
d don't complete the turns all of the way
e keep your edges a little dull
f move into the turn nice and slowly

[Hotbeans]

This might warrant a new thread, but it's related to this discussion..
I went out yesterday with both the coiler and the virus. Slope conditions were coming off a 15 deg. night, groomed, nearly ice (prob. granular that had frozen overnight), black and blue runs. temp rose to 25 during day.
I have bumped up my angles to 60/58 on both boards due to occasional boot out and was looking for a bit more of a squared hip to tighten up my feed-through actions. First few runs involved washing out (chatter on toeside, board occillation on heelsides) which I diagnosed as needing more angulation and a more upright upper body position through apex and finish of the turn. (others please feel free to comment on this approach). I also decided that a longer board (virus) would compensate a bit for my inconsistent technique that morning. Somewhat better, but I did find that the heelside occillation was cured by throwing BOTH hands towards the one-oclock position (goofy). What this inadvertantly did was cause a laid-out EC type turn with my hands floating ~1inch off the snow! That was cool and I was able to do a couple of toeside turns where my hands were just skimming off the deck. I then realized that I was *extending* during the apex and compressing during the transition, just like Jack and others were saying earlier. While I occasionally still struggled with toeside chatter/heelside occillations, on easy blues/green runs layin' it out was a blast. Not a great day, but it helped me realize that I struggle with consistency and changing snow conditions (and a general lack of expertise on the subject!)
Thanks for all the advice offered up here.

[queequeg]

AWESOME story Geoff!

[Jack Michaud]

narrow decks work better for cutting through crud tot eh base

Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree.

[KingCrimson]

Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree.

Is this in part because the other edge is that much further away from the surface, and therefore less prone to catch?

[Mike T]

Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree.

+1

21.5 waited Coiler AM-T 176 for me, carves in crud-over-hardpack that by all rights should not be carveable. I gots a Madd 158 original (came to me well used) which is as bad in crud as it is good on ice, owned many other 18ish waists and with the exception of very long ones (Coiler PR188 SB) they've all sucked in crud over hard.

[Rob Stevens]

http://bomberonline.com///images/crossthrough.jpg
Great technique here, as far as stance and balance is concerned.
The missing element for ice is the point at which power is applied. At what point do you see snow starting to fly?
John G hits on this.
An early edge change is critical, but this rider is doing that too.
Focus more on this riders focus. Where is he looking?
If he's looking down the fall line all the way through this transition, he is likely to power late.

Shift the focus in a more sweeping arc. See more of the hill.

Exiting the toeside, I would want to see the side of the riders head, looking across and up the hill.
When the board crosses through, you want to feel as if you're feeding the nose up the hill a bit. This rider is clearly feeding it across, but more down and consequently only able to build late pressure which is the kiss of death on ice.
When you do this right, you might start to see the snow fly off the edge much earlier than the fall line. This is going to translate to more even edge pressure throughout the entire turn, rather than strictly in the latter half.

[John Gilmour]

Owning an 18cm Madd 158 and a 21cm Coiler, I respectfully but thoroughly disagree.
by narrow I mean thickness not board width I had an Apocalypse 7G channel bottom with a super thick sidewall.... never could cut through even wet granular.. it just planed on the sidewall.

[Dave ESPI]

I was loving life on sunday..... today however after teh warm up and re-freeze, it was death cookies, marbles and frozen uneven groom. HARD HARD HARD with tractor treads under it with patches of pure blue ice.

I went to two mountains trying to find some good carveable snow. I found some tonight @ WEST MOUNTAIN in NY. It was hhard and fast, and you really had to be "on point" with form. I chatttered a lot but once I got in a nice weight transfer groove of a carveing run, it was like velcro on ice.

Quite nice, but Id much rather have hero trench stuff anyday. One thing I can say however, is that on ice, its much easier to ride in and I went 7+ hours today in hardboots around 25 runs or so worth and was not really as beat as I am in the softer stuff. Perhaps it is a sliding scale with howmuch lean and recovery and actual digging we do into the hill that makes it less effort on ice as we relaly cant just hanner out the tight turns we want to or else we risk blowout and do the "Assey360" (one of my fave tricks) on our butts. :eplus2:

A thin board does indeed seem to help, as does having higher anfles with some exposed edge of the board so ast to let a half inch of board extend beyond your toes and heels ( or so it seemed to work for me today)

[BulletProof]

talking about ice, I was at Jay Peak last Sunday, everything thawed on saturday, add some rain.
A bit of snow in the morning and -10°C with 40kph winds.
apparently the glades where fine, everything on the right of the tram (which was closed) was an ice rink.
Never saw a blue sheet of ice 5m wide x200+m long... saw a couple nutcases try their luck.

[Erik J]

Ever have one of those days when everything feels juuust right?

That was yesterday.

I tried changing a few little details with my setup after giving my board a very loving tune -

- Gilmour bias ROCKS! I didn't get to try this on ice yet, since starting this thread the snow went from hero groom to slush. I have a bit more overhang on my rear toe than I would like, whatever. Now I need a wider board.

- Shortened my stance a little.

So I immediately noticed a more stable platform. The movement of my rear toe to the toeside and front heel to the heelside was really nice (Gilmour bias). To do this I needed to shorten my stance a bit, I'm at about 21" now.

The power that I was able to generate was effing sick. Riding back up the lift I could see a few spots with about 20' of space between my edge changes. My lines also felt a little more clean, like I wasn't battling the edge. I noticed the "feed the dollar" thing more, which I really liked as it felt even more dynamic. The whole stance just felt more natural and intuitive. I've used the word "more" a lot here.

Thank you all for adding to this thread (+ 1 for Geoff's story), please keep it coming!

[John Gilmour]

I'll go into more depth about "Gilmour Bias" and how to optimize it...
there is a theory behind it involving lift and a fulcrum point... more on it later..

[Erik J]

Great technique here, as far as stance and balance is concerned.
The missing element for ice is the point at which power is applied. At what point do you see snow starting to fly?
John G hits on this.
An early edge change is critical, but this rider is doing that too.
Focus more on this riders focus. Where is he looking?
If he's looking down the fall line all the way through this transition, he is likely to power late.

Shift the focus in a more sweeping arc. See more of the hill.

Exiting the toeside, I would want to see the side of the riders head, looking across and up the hill.
When the board crosses through, you want to feel as if you're feeding the nose up the hill a bit. This rider is clearly feeding it across, but more down and consequently only able to build late pressure which is the kiss of death on ice.
When you do this right, you might start to see the snow fly off the edge much earlier than the fall line. This is going to translate to more even edge pressure throughout the entire turn, rather than strictly in the latter half.

GREAT stuff! Thanks. This head turn thing in underrated IMO. Such a simple but very effective practice. I envy all of those that can break this stuff down and explain it.

[trailertrash]

- Gilmour bias ROCKS! I didn't get to try this on ice yet, since starting this thread the snow went from hero groom to slush. I have a bit more overhang on my rear toe than I would like, whatever. Now I need a wider board.


Are you saying you have more overhang before or after the bias?

thanks

[Erik J]

Are you saying you have more overhang before or after the bias?

thanks

I have more overhang on the rear toe only with Gilmour bias, but my boots are M28 on an 18cm wide board.

My previous setup was centered down the midline of the board with angles about 64 deg front and back. The edges of my heels and toes were right on top of the board edges.

I don't really have a lot of room to play with unless I start going to higher angles, so I said screw it, If I boot out, I boot out. But I haven't so far...my over hang is not all that much. On a rug I can lean the board over to about 70ish deg before boot out - previously, it was set up for zero boot out even to 90 deg.

[Jack Michaud]

Yeah, the only problem with Gilmour Bias is that you have to run higher angles to do it without drag. I'm sooo enjoying coming down from 62 to 66 degree angles on 19cm and 18cm boards to my current 58 degree angles on my 21cm board. I'm not so inclined to go back over 60. I used to do Gilmour Bias many years ago (before I had heard it called that!) but stopped when I realized the angle penalty. I didn't really notice anything lacking after going back to 0 bias, so maybe I wasn't using enough of an offset.

[Erik J]

I'd really like to get my angles down lower but on an 18cm board, this is about the best compromise I can get unless there are some other tweaks that I'm not aware of.

[carver]

Ice? Hmmm? Lets see here, Time of day, as in morning, go back to bed! In the afternoon, to the bar! This is the only way to deal with ice! As a matter of fact, my stepins reject my boots when there's ice! LOL

[Hotbeans]

:eek: if i didn't ride ice, I'd have a total of < 15 days/year riding!!

[Erik J]

:eek: if i didn't ride ice, I'd have a total of < 15 days/year riding!!

I hear ya.

Rain today, below freezing tonight, then into the teens. I'll be back on ice in no time. I have a sweet tune, a few new tweaks to my setup and a score to settle with Mr Ice.

[Hotbeans]

I'm right there with 'ya. I finally bought a medium diamond stone and a fine gummi and got my edges feeling the sharpest I've ever had them. Maybe tomorrow evening up at holiday valley..
let me know how that gilmour bias works out in ice.. I may give it a try.

[BulletProof]

90° and what edge bevel do you file at?

[Erik J]

I'll go into more depth about "Gilmour Bias" and how to optimize it...
there is a theory behind it involving lift and a fulcrum point... more on it later..

JG, I would really, really, really be interested in hearing you expand more on this - I'm sure others would too.