Ice board for narrow trails - Coiler or Madd 158?

[corey_dyck]

I had a frustrating day yesterday. My local ski area has narrow runs, iffy snow conditions, and questionable grooming. Tack on nothing steeper than a blue run and I question why I even go some days. When everything lines up right it can be quite fun even on something like my F2 RS 183 on the one run that's about 4 groomer passes wide, but on a bad day it's like a skating rink.

I spent yesterday on a F2 SL 163 doing small/slow carves/slides through the icy sections and playing in a section about 1.5 groomer passes wide of good snow, it was about 250' long. I rutted up that section so bad that no one else even went on it as the day progressed! ;)

But the sections leading up to and after this were horrible, you could see the groomer tracks in the yellow ice. There were at least 5 people (only ~100 paying customers - it's a small hill!) that got treated by ski patrol for simply falling on the ice. Lots of injured wrists and one particularly nasty faceplant. :(

I want something that can go slowly and turn tight radius turns on ice. But it would be very nice if it also could handle a bit of extra speed when conditions are nice.

Is the legendary Madd 158 the board for this? Or would a metal Coiler built specifically for this be better/equivalent? They seem to be close to the same price... I rode a Madd 158 metal at SES last year that felt great, but it was in near hero snow so I don't think it was a representative test.

Any opinions/suggestions? Other than "move to the mountains." :p

[bobdea]

but I'm liking my stubby right now, mine have a tighter scr than the others 11 instead of 14 or whatever.
most boards are more forgiving than the 158 but the metal boards are super forgiving compared to that thing.
different animals.
my next carver will probably be a coiler SL with a hangl or VIST plate..

[GeoffV]

Corey you 1st need to make a decision of you are going Metal or Glass. Bruce can build you an amazing short board that will rip on narrow icey slopes. Madd's 158 would be a perfect tool for that if you want to go glass.
Eitherway you will not be disappointed with either board.

Yeah, riding a short Madd in hero snow will not give an idea on how they will perform on ice. It will perform trust.

Stay way from the Madd titanal boards, they were proto's and still have a long way to go and don't have the typical metal ride qualities you would expect.

[nekdut]

Stay way from the Madd titanal boards, they were proto's and still have a long way to go and don't have the typical metal ride qualities you would expect.

Geoff, can you expand on this statement? I am quite happy with my metal Madd 170. Sure, its a very different ride from a Stubby, but I found it to be a much quieter ride through chop, while maintaining the liveliness expected from Madd.

[nekdut]

By the way, my vote goes for the Madd 158. The stubby does work quite well on ice, but the Madd just eats it up and asks for more. :eplus2:

[GeoffV]

Geoff, can you expand on this statement? I am quite happy with my metal Madd 170. Sure, its a very different ride from a Stubby, but I found it to be a much quieter ride through chop, while maintaining the liveliness expected from Madd.

I've only been on the 58 titanal to be more specific. Agree it is a totally different ride than Schtubby and that is not negative at all. The 58 TI performed well, I just have some longterm ownership concerns with the design. The titanal doesn't go all the way through the board, has only one layer and I'm concerned about fractures where the TI stops.

If you specifically compare the 58 TI vs. the 58 glass ,I'd say the glass is a better board. The Madd TI's are not bad boards at all but if you are thinking about buying one in hopes of getting a board that has a "metal feel" to it IMHO you will not get that. The TI Madds ride more like a glass boards and have a tons of pop. I just prefer the glass Madds over the TI ones.

Hope that helps

[Dave ESPI]

Im interested also in the answer to this.

Wondering if a carver with "Magnetraction" would be of any use in design with a wavy radial edge is of any benefit.

[corey_dyck]

I've got to ride more metal boards. I should be enjoying a demo about this time next week at SES. :D :D I can hardly wait!

My metal test rides have been limited to the Madd 158 (holy camber batman!) and a Prior WCR (felt completely numb to me). I need to sample more boards. Thus far I've enjoyed boards like race cars - rewarding if you use proper technique and punishing if you make a mistake. You learn quick with this kind of equipment! But I'm mellowing in that view after a few brutal ice days...

In the meantime, I put my name in the list of people wanting Big Canucks (was nekdut's) Madd 158 in the classifieds. These don't come up very often so I figured I should jump on the opportunity.

[Mike T]

My $0.02...

I have a well-used original Madd 158 and it's great for keeping speed down on the hard stuff. I've ridden three other 158's as well, and I didn't like any of them as much as this well-used original. The first one I rode was an 06/07 demo at SES '06; it was a good deck, just not as grippy as the original that I have now. The second was one of the camouflage series, from around 2003. In retrospect something felt a bit off to me, like it the tail wasn't engaging at all. The third was one of the metal prototypes. Agreed, holy camber Batman! Too much camber and pop IMHO, I like a board that behaves a little better, and it was no grippier than the original.

If and when I kill the original Madd and want a replacement, my first call will be to Bruce, as I have no doubt he can whip up something that works as well if not better in similar conditions. In fact the AM 176 that I already own is every bit as good at keeping speed under control, and certainly grippier. However it's length and sidecut imply a slower turn tempo and bigger turns unless I am really looking to get a workout. And of course the feel is different, something tells me a Coiler with a similar length and turn shape to the Madd would prefer to be ridden more centered, on the original Madd it feels like I have to ride only the front half of the board to get it to lock in.

[GeoffV]

Agreed, holy camber Batman! Too much camber and pop IMHO.

Agreed, the TI's have to much camber



If and when I kill the original Madd and want a replacement, my first call will be to Bruce, as I have no doubt he can whip up something that works as well if not better in similar conditions.

I'd love to get a run on an orig 58, the curiosity is killing me.
Agree BV will be able to make a fine replacement.

[corey_dyck]

Hmm, a custom Coiler with a magna-traction type of edge for the first half/third/whatever of the running surface to get the groove started in the ice... That sounds fun too! I don't want to be the first person to try it though. ;)

It's funny that it's not that much extra money for me to buy a custom Coiler than it is to get a used Madd once I factor in duty/taxes/shipping from the US.

[Erik J]

I want something that can go slowly and turn tight radius turns on ice. But it would be very nice if it also could handle a bit of extra speed when conditions are nice.

Is the legendary Madd 158 the board for this? Or would a metal Coiler built specifically for this be better/equivalent? They seem to be close to the same price... I rode a Madd 158 metal at SES last year that felt great, but it was in near hero snow so I don't think it was a representative test.

I rode an original Madd 158 and, so far, it is the gold standard to which I will measure all other boards as far as the fun factor goes. For me, it was not a board to be lazy on, I felt I needed to be on the gas at all times - which for me is good. Whatever I put into the board, it gave back. Ice? Pretend it's not even there and rip as hard as you want to. I was actually looking for ice by the end of the day.

I have never ridden a Coiler (your other mention) but they obviously have a great reputation.

That's my $.02

[John Gilmour]

The 158 is a good way not to get hurt on an icy day. I have 2 originals..and the original 158 has more edge hold than the newer 158's and newer 170's.

I have looked for trails that were too narrow and steep for the 158. Gandalf lift at Haystack is a good super narrow one- but still possible to link carves on...Master magician as Magic mountain is another double fall line narrow icy trail... but still carveable. but I think they closed that one. The front four at Stowe are a cake walk for the 158.

[Hotbeans]

I do much of the same riding: narrow trails that are mostly ice, some blue spots. My non-metal coiler 164 works well, especially in the chopped up (rutted, chunks of ice, small chop bumps) stuff. It glides through this w/o issue. Sit back, ride it surf style, stay over the edge and it will do what you want.

[corey_dyck]

Thanks for all the opinions! I think I'm going to talk with Bruce at SES and get on every board in the demo tent.


I have looked for trails that were too narrow and steep for the 158.
Steep isn't a concern for me. There is exactly one run within a 5-hour drive of home that is something I'd consider steep, and they usually let it go to bumps after Christmas. Bad, irregular, icy bumps. :(

Most runs around here are mild blues, after all we ski on the sides of river valleys! The challenge isn't to control your speed but rather to not scrub all your speed in any given turn. I had a hard time at SES last year as I had to learn to finish my turns to keep speeds reasonable.

[Bordy]

Thanks for all the opinions! I think I'm going to talk with Bruce at SES and get on every board in the demo tent.


This is the best way to find the correct board. I new metal stick will ride circles around the Madd. I have ridden them all.

[Jack Michaud]

I haven't ridden a short Coiler, but I can tell you the Madd 158 is a good tool for that job description. I would like to see if a 160 metal board could match the Madd for ice grip and be even easier to ride. I may have one built.

[Ear dragger]

Well I can say the madd is a sweet board, but from my experience the coiler free carve is amazing on solid ice, It is a glass board with a 10.5 side cut. so you can make some real tight turns even on a 178, which is what i ride. especially if you ride with high toe and heel lift angles, the board can turn like it's a 9.5 side cut, I learned that 2 weeks ago from messing around with the cateks. My friend alex has a metal and a glass coiler, and he prefers the glass over the metal on the icyer days. also my feeling is a shorter board no matter what is is wont hold the edge as well as a longer board. and turning in tight trails comes down to side cut. (Just my opinion, and not gospel) hope that helps

[John Gilmour]

The Madd 158 is a design that is now almost 15 years old.

Most of the original boards are 13 years old.

There was an even better one- of which about 4 were made that had special carbon top sheets.. I have no idea where those went. There were a few 170's like that... but Anton Pogue smashed his from gates.

Given the materials at the time we did pretty well with it.

The new bases are not as nice as the old ones. That speckled base was great for both durability and speed when prepped with Dominator products.

And if you toss metal in... Bordy is absolutely right.. a well designed Metal should obliterate the Madd 158. Just like new technology moves everything forward. I bet Bordy could toss a deck under my feet that could make me hang up the 158.... it just has not happened yet- but likely there are more than 1 deck out there that will do that for me. The 158 is just a known animal with a nice track record.

[ur13]

The Madd 158 is a design that is now almost 15 years old.

Most of the original boards are 13 years old.

There was an even better one- of which about 4 were made that had special carbon top sheets.. I have no idea where those went. There were a few 170's like that... but Anton Pogue smashed his from gates.

Given the materials at the time we did pretty well with it.

The new bases are not as nice as the old ones. That speckled base was great for both durability and speed when prepped with Dominator products.

And if you toss metal in... Bordy is absolutely right.. a well designed Metal should obliterate the Madd 158. Just like new technology moves everything forward. I bet Bordy could toss a deck under my feet that could make me hang up the 158.... it just has not happened yet- but likely there are more than 1 deck out there that will do that for me. The 158 is just a known animal with a nice track record.

John, it hit me last weekend that the MADD 158 is about 13 years old. I was on the lift with a bunch of hardbooters I've never met at Stratton last weekend and one guy pointed it out by saying "Someone brought out an old MAAD for the day, cool.". The board still obliterates everything else I've ridden and it is still my go too board. But coming back to the scene here I've seen metal as the new hot thing and am curious to try some of the new tech next season. Still, it will take some doing to get me off my 15 year old 158.

[willywhit]

ur13, how ya been ? haven't seen ya since Da Farm years ago

[ur13]

ur13, how ya been ? haven't seen ya since Da Farm years ago


Ya, it's been a while. I got burned out on skateboards and snowboards for a long time along with alot of personal drama. Some two years later I'm back to snowboards at least and life is good. How's things with you?

[willywhit]

despite one mosquito, things are great. off to Brasil in a few weeks. Didn't you score a sponsorship for slalom skating ? Roe ?

[ur13]

despite one mosquito, things are great. off to Brasil in a few weeks. Didn't you score a sponsorship for slalom skating ? Roe ?


After Turner died I stopped going after that stuff, that was also when the courses changed and my interests in the courses changed. I worked with Roe/Insect then skatebuilt after that...but never was "sponsored again"...

It's just snowboards for me now...

[BadBrad]

I'd bet that a relatively short "turn-schtubby" would be the perfect tool for those conditions. Short enough sidecut radius to make quick tight turns with a short overall length to permit easily throwing it sideways when you need to.

[Erik J]

A question to add to this thread -

Does metal still give you the magic on a shorter length and/or sidecut board?

[Chris Houghton]

Just got a Prior WCR Metal in the 169 length, fantastic board on ice. And yes, I have ridden the original Madd 158. The Madd was more entertaining, but the Prior is more predictable but still lively. Better choice for this old guy.

[Jack Michaud]

A question to add to this thread -

Does metal still give you the magic on a shorter length and/or sidecut board?

I don't see why not. Bruce has said that the metal by itself isn't what makes the boards damp....

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=214343&postcount=54

and

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=214591&postcount=79

[Mike T]

A question to add to this thread -

Does metal still give you the magic on a shorter length and/or sidecut board?

My theory... which could totally be wrong... a short, turny metal board would blow away the Madd 158 as long as it has the right flex pattern... which would involve a stiffer nose and softer mid-section. Yeah, kinda like a Madd 158.

[bobdea]

My theory... which could totally be wrong... a short, turny metal board would blow away the Madd 158 as long as it has the right flex pattern... which would involve a stiffer nose and softer mid-section. Yeah, kinda like a Madd 158.

next, stub?
the x6, schMaddy?

[LeeW]

The 158 is a good way not to get hurt on an icy day. I have 2 originals..and the original 158 has more edge hold than the newer 158's and newer 170's.

I have looked for trails that were too narrow and steep for the 158. Gandalf lift at Haystack is a good super narrow one- but still possible to link carves on...Master magician as Magic mountain is another double fall line narrow icy trail... but still carveable. but I think they closed that one. The front four at Stowe are a cake walk for the 158.


I agree on this one -- Fin's original was the only one I tried, and I'm completely blown away. However, I'll settle for my current Madd 158 (with "The Pimp" as my signature).

Hey Gilmour, are you still in Aspen area? Hope to see you at SES ? I'll be only there for one day, and most likely will be hanging out with Garrow.

[Bruce Varsava]

next, stub?
the x6, schMaddy?
Well if you guys were on the ball you would be checking out Mr Gruumers last 2 boards and making a few educated guesses.
Lets see, the X4 had a multi 10/13/10.5m sidecut, Hmmmm kinda like the 158 Madd 7/11/9m
Lets see, the X5 kinda had glued on mini butterfly plates, Hmmmmm, kinda like a glued on Madd butterfly plate.
Can you guess this may be the base testing for the ANGRRY 162 and 170:eek:
The Gruumer dude is still 2 years ahead of y'all
No protos yet but the design work is in the pot stewing away nicely
BV

[John Gilmour]

I flexed one of Bruce's newer boards the other day.. I am sure he has a Metal in his quiver close to the same length and weight that can beat a 158 in terms of grip.

Probably in fun factor too- though I am very used to my 158 and forcing it do do stuff it was never intended to with odd little tricks like a double handed heelside to do stupid fast GS turns. or dumping both knees to the slope to euro carve when compressed. People that know how to ride the 158's have always impressed me with their riding skills and ability to push it and keep up with boards over 185cm.

It doesn't mean I couldn't do the same rider tricks on Bruce's boards, in fact personally I'd like to own a Coiler- I think his boards have a great mix of dampness and liveliness and the graphics are super cool too. If I had a couple hundred bucks in the bank I'd beg him for a blem.

Also after watching Ray on his Virus...I'd really like to own one of them too. But not a blem of those because the metal top sheets look too insane... I don't think I'll be able to afford one anytime soon unless I sell a 103" panasonic plasma. Hell... who am I kidding?? I can't even afford a new set of Head Stratos hardboots and strolz liners even at pro-form prices.

Years ago.. it was Madd or nothing... not so anymore.. in terms of getting out of a hairball mistake I like shorter boards that have tons of edge hold. But the super narrow virus boards are very light and perhaps you could run a bit longer and still get out of a jam...Vlad Popov... your thoughts.. if you are out there??? You have ridden both the Virus and the 158 extensively- you wouldn't hurt my feelings.. how do they compare.. I'd expect the newer 2008 and onward 14 cm wide virus cyborg and newer to win out over the 158 for people with smaller feet...and the newer Metal Coliers to beat out the 158 for people with bigger feet.

All this talk of high performance CUSTOM snowbaords and in 2009 I am stuck riding stock 2008 Burton Andy Warhol boots (two pairs size 10 and size 9.5), 2007 Union force DLX soft bindings (with three sets of straps and buckles) and two demo 2005 rossignol powder Judge splittail boards for carving.. still life is good. Carving is still fun, and I have a blast at every turn I make.. in fact the schittyness of the set up makes it a little more challenging. But having everything STOCK pushed to the limit means absolutely eveything fails- My first Rossi judge got p-tex cracks and tail stress cracks(which is why I have two- one is likely always being warranteed) , my binding buckles failed and make me eat it at 30mph onto my neck while trying to protect a camera (So I have two sets now) , I packed out my size 10 Burton softboot liners in about 35 days of riding, (So I bought spare set and warranteed the first set)


but it was cheap. $65 for the boots ($130 for both sets) , $150 for last years closeout bindings, $270 for the board shipped ot my door ($540 total for both). And the set up is versatile...like Elle MacPherson you can take her anywhere and be happy- in the ocean- a dinner party- deep pow- and ageless.

Some snowboards are like women... all different rides and you can love them all.

Which reminds me...- Last year Fin challenged me to get Elle MacPherson carving this year at SES 2009... that is the tallest order anyone has ever given me. I don't even think she snowboards. I can't even hope to get cougared because I'm 10 months older than her..drat.

If I manage to get her carving ... I will expect two Virus boards of my choice (Frank are you in?) and two Coilers (Bruce?)- and a 210 Donek and a shorter Split tail. , and a pair of Head Stratos boots (Fin?) .

of course......after I finish delivering all my 360 carve videos. I think you guys have nothing to worry about... I have a better chance of marrying her first and then getting her to carve.


Anyone spotted her in town yet? In case you forgot what she looks like... she's the only woman who could put a bathing suit on backwards and not look silly. Super Models can wear stuff the rest of the world can't.


http://reignoferror.blogspot.com/2007/09/wonderfully-scary.html

- update feb 16 , 2009 ... but this was last friday...

snipped from aspen cougars thread...

OK A.D.D. moment...before I forget to mention this....

- Elle Macpherson....
The challenge from Fin last year was that Elle shows up for SES every year the same time... and for me to get her to carve...

I figure... I'd have to marry her first... not happening...

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24387&highlight=macpherson&page=2

I talk to Ray and Anja who both saw her... and said she came and left already... ( :( )

So I figure ...no chance... But I'm still thinking about meeting ther...though I can't imagine getting her to carve...

So Last day of SES.... its first tracks on Ajax on Friday.... I RUN RUN RUN to make it... but woke up too late.. the gondola just closed... So I figure I''ll wait to watch to see who gets down the hill first... I'm even wondering... "Why am I bothering to wait" While waiting I see Jane Botsford's (super Cute girl ex ford model from highschool) husband and if He wasn't there, I certainly wouldn't stayed. So we chatted for about 10 minutes and it turns out he's really into Alpine snowboarding and he'll probably come out to ride.

So who is first down the hill at first tracks on Friday? (Coiler?...Prior? ...Virus? ) Well of course the ski guides have to lead the way. But the first other person shows up wearing jet set ski pants and I thought to myself, hey doesn't Elle Macpherson wear jet set ski pants? Then I look at her and I say... "Wow, that girl is really tall." And then she starts to talk to the ski instructors and says "I certainly am happy you convinced me to do this this was wonderful." And I thought, well she certainly has a strong Australian accent. And mind you I am terrible at recognizing people have a hard time recognizing all the carvers. So I take a closer look and I thought... yes, this is her...ummm I think. But I still don't want to go bother her because I'm not totally sure. The only person I know who can positively ID her is Ray.

So moments later, I'm thinking "I wish my friend Ray was here" and in an instant the entire virus snowboards carving crew shows up at the bottom of the gondola -- they completely dominated the pack.

And I can see that Ray has noticed her, and without even having to ask Ray at this point I realize it's definitely her.

So I walk up to her and start talking and I asked her "you always see us carving snowboarders every week when you come to Aspen each year would you like to learn? I'll teach you. And I'm pretty good at teaching. You won't get hurt"

She said "no, I don't think I could ever do that" and I said "well, perhaps next year you will change your mind" and walked away. I thought she was one of the most timeless beauties. year after year looking stunning...

At least, I have Ray as my witness that I did try to get her to go snowboarding. Also one of the guys from virus, I forget his name, but he's a really nice tall guy, he got a picture with her.

So in this mission... I have completely and utterly failed.

And in an odd way, ..... not that I ever had snowballs in hell chance... I am glad I offered.. These sort of things are what makes my life seem so unbelievable... but ask Ray.

[John Gilmour]

I agree on this one -- Fin's original was the only one I tried, and I'm completely blown away. However, I'll settle for my current Madd 158 (with "The Pimp" as my signature).

Hey Gilmour, are you still in Aspen area? Hope to see you at SES ? I'll be only there for one day, and most likely will be hanging out with Garrow.

still in Aspen.. whew... but struggling to stay here. Living it up for the meantime. I now have keys to the Fly Lounge and VIP areas I'm their new sound system guy... Maybe I can have a SES party apres ski for you guys there...

Garrow rips... one of my favorite East Coast riders.. he and Sully were sicko on plates.

[bobdea]

Well if you guys were on the ball you would be checking out Mr Gruumers last 2 boards and making a few educated guesses.
Lets see, the X4 had a multi 10/13/10.5m sidecut, Hmmmm kinda like the 158 Madd 7/11/9m
Lets see, the X5 kinda had glued on mini butterfly plates, Hmmmmm, kinda like a glued on Madd butterfly plate.
Can you guess this may be the base testing for the ANGRRY 162 and 170:eek:
The Gruumer dude is still 2 years ahead of y'all
No protos yet but the design work is in the pot stewing away nicely
BV

well, next year I'm in for something small that CRANKS. feel free to get creative.

[Bruce Varsava]

well, next year I'm in for something small that CRANKS. feel free to get creative.
Tested a 162 twincarve with 13.2m, it was a customers board which I saw him ride and could immediately tell it was not well balanced. Gave me a lot of insight into what makes the smaller boards work and that one was definitely lacking in a few categories. I learn a ton more from the bad ones over the good ones so its always a major success to build a bad board as long as you learn from it. Real long and real short boards seem to have their own set of rules and are pretty fussy about having it done right for good all around performance.
Workin on it:biggthump

[Bobby Buggs]

go Coiler metal :biggthump
http://evilsports.com/gallery/d/1979-1/toeside.jpg