How important is a well-tuned board?

[Kex]

I was talking with my brother this past weekend while boarding, and he seems convinced that having a freshly sharpened board is extremely important(hes mainly a skidder, so I'd like some input from this POV as well).
I disagree. My rationale is that snow isn't exactly hard to cut, so having an extremely sharp board isn't exactly a huge deal. Whether your board is a steak knife or a butter knife, either one will cut into snow without difficulty.

I can understand how it is a little different when you are dealing with ice, and we are east coast riders, so we deal with a lot of ice, but even so, it seems to me that whether your board can slice your finger open or not, its still a very small amount of surface area(by which I mean the length of the edge) that you are talking about.

Since I don't have a huge amount of experience in the tuning department, and I am basically going off of my own messed up logic. I figured I would ask you all. I know that many of you tune your own boards, so I figured it would be best to hear your opinions on the matter. So:

How important is tuning your edges(both for skidding and carving)?

Is it more important to sharper your edges for icy conditions than perfect cord?

How often should it be done?

Thanks!

[BlueB]

I had a first hand awakening call other day. Conditions were frozen granullar with few ice patches and few softer patches.
I got totally surprised that Donek Vlad had more edge hold then Virus Vampire. Vamire is titanal and softer flexing, wich has to result in better edge hold on ice. When it was new (to me) and very sharp, no other board of mine came even close. Now it's somewhat dull (not horribly dull, just it could be sharper), while Donek was very sharp that evening.

[Snowman]

A proper tune and wax can be the difference between a great day and a crappy day. Read about it, learn, ask questions, do as much of it as you are able. It is important.

Think Snow

[carvedog]

A proper tune and wax can be the difference between a great day and a crappy day. Read about it, learn, ask questions, do as much of it as you are able. It is important.

Think Snow

Truth.

Think smooth too, not just sharp. Smoooooth.

[rdietz]

Your logic could not be more misguided when thinking about alpine/carving. I can tell you that I bought a new to me board that I took and got "tuned" locally here in Co Springs. The board is like new. The shop owner de-tuned the tip and tail. I took it out and was very disappointed in the performance and I kept washing out on heel side carves. I borrowed an edge sharpener from a friend and sharpened the full effective edge with a 0 degree till it almost cut my finger. The next time out I was completely impressed me with it's edge control and turn in ablity. The control was 100% improved so I'm absolutely conviced that to de-tune is to be avoided at all cost. Even though you may think that it's a small amount of real estate but @ 170+ cm, it turns out to be more than you'd think and it makes a huge difference.

[shawndoggy]

Local EC hero told me on the chair that he never sharpens his edges cuz if the snow's too hard to get an edge he'd rather not be riding.

[Ian M]

It totally depends on the conditions. I was having a blast riding a worn-out 8-year-old Factory prime when the snow was soft at the beginning of the season, but the first hard day was horrible. I was putting massive pressure on the edges, and they still would just barely grip. I haven't struggled that much in years. Had a full base grind and tune done on it three weeks ago, and all of a sudden I can lay carves across boilerplate like it's fresh groom. Do I feel a difference in soft snow though? No. :)

[Jack Michaud]

get a PTC tune and you'll realize.

a waxed base is not nearly as important unless you are racing.

[bobdea]

Local EC hero told me on the chair that he never sharpens his edges cuz if the snow's too hard to get an edge he'd rather not be riding.

HOLY ****!
best jab at the EC guys I've seen in awhile!

[bigdyno]

I was out last week on a freshly waxed/sharpened board (it might as well be sloped skating rinks here in ontario) and it was so much better than the last time I had been out. I even ended up de-tunig about four inches on the front of the board to get it to relax a little. Just a small adjustment like that can make a big difference.

I rode Swain, NY on saturday and had hills that were more icy than home. I had base burn along about 1.5 inches up either side by the end of the day even though I only had a day since the last wax. Guess what I am doing before friday?

[Kex]

Ok, thanks for the comments, starting to see that it does actually matter.

I get the importance for carving on ice, I can imagine that an unsharpened board carving on boilerplate is sort of like being on an ice rink on dull ice skates. Any input on how helpful an edge tune is on the skidding side of things?(i know this isnt a skidding forum, but i'll ask anyway).

Also, how often do those of you that tune your own boards tune your edges?

[corey_dyck]

I'm curious why edge sharpness matters when you're in stuff that you leave 2-3" deep trenches in. You're effectively creating a ledge that you stand on, who cares how sharp that edge is when it's not supporting much load anymore?

Not being argumentative, I've genuinely wondered this before as well.

(I'll keep sharpening my edges, I'm happy when I can leave 1" deep ruts in our 'snow' around here. :AR15firin)

[davekempmeister]

Maybe not perfectly analogous but consider the difference between poor and high quality cutlery. Perhaps a resident chef hear on Bomber could weigh in. Sharpened cutlery, tools and the like bring real pleasure when they operate efficiently. Most knives will cut, just a matter of how well.

[snowboardfast]

I tune and wax my boards rather frequently to keep them sharp and gliding well. I don't use a file once I set the bevels- just a diamond stone in an edge tool and stones after that to polish the edge. That way I am not removing material from the edges - I am simply touching them up to keep them smooth and sharp. I touch up the edges every time I wax the board which I do after a few days of riding. I just hotwax with a light layer during the season so that I am almost not scraping much wax off but I do this when the base starts to look a little dry on the edges. I don't let my edges get dull as it is more fun to ride a board that is sharp. Your edges will get burred and rough rather quickly if they are not maintained. I bought the tools to do this myself as I like to do it and don't want to have to take my board to the shop to get it done. I just try to keep my edges fairly nice- I am not going to spend 3 hrs tuning them to absolute perfection like a worldcup racer might. Of course racers have a training board and a race board. The training board gets beat up riding every day and the other board is ridden for the race only. After the season is over I will put a heavier coat of wax on the board and not scrape it off until I go ride the next season. I also will fill gouges with a p tex candle if needed. If the board needs a base weld I will take it to a shop. I learned how to do this to save money and keep my stuff ready to go. Board tuning is funto do and I am not an expert at it. I just do it on a basic level for recreational riding.

[Jim Callen]

Ride at Tussey much? If so, you need sharp edges. Especiallly on the ice coast, it is imperative to sharen every couple times you go out, or if you hit a rock and ding something.

Mind you out here, I don't sharpen as much as the snow is much softer, and I've hit all sorts of rocks and it doesn't bother me, but back east it was a big deal.

Lived in State College long? I used to be the GM of Zola Bistro, up until last year.

[chippermon]

Here in Thunder Bay we get a lot of boilerplate. Sharp edges make all the difference. Like Snowboard Fast, I have been tuning my own gear too. I had to lay out a good chunk of dough for the startup but it is way worth it. i agree it is kind of fun plus I know it is being done right. Better control of angles and wax selection to suit conditions.

[Art]

It's important.

[Kex]

Ride at Tussey much? If so, you need sharp edges. Especiallly on the ice coast, it is imperative to sharen every couple times you go out, or if you hit a rock and ding something.

Mind you out here, I don't sharpen as much as the snow is much softer, and I've hit all sorts of rocks and it doesn't bother me, but back east it was a big deal.

Lived in State College long? I used to be the GM of Zola Bistro, up until last year.
Thats pretty cool, Zola's is a nice place to grab a good beer. fairly expensive though, at least for a college student:freak3:.Nice to see someone else that knows state college on these forums!

I've ridden at tussey a few times in the past couple yrs, though never on a carving board before this year. I was actually there Monday and it was pretty much a skating rink, but it was good training. I figure if you can carve the ice on Tussey, you can carve anything. I'm planning to go tomorrow(we just got 2 inches today, hooray!), since I don't have class on thursdays

[LeGogoussier]

I'm curious why edge sharpness matters when you're in stuff that you leave 2-3" deep trenches in. You're effectively creating a ledge that you stand on, who cares how sharp that edge is when it's not supporting much load anymore?
The trench does not exist ahead of your board. Your edge has to cut through the surface to open it up. Only then does your board have the support required to oppose the centrifugal force, remain flexed and keep cutting on as you lead it into the turn.

[tufty]

The trench does not exist ahead of your board. Your edge has to cut through the surface to open it up. Only then does your board have the support required to oppose the centrifugal force, remain flexed and keep cutting on as you lead it into the turn.

Yep. Except...

...it's the front of the edge that cuts the trench, the part of the edge that is usually detuned to be dull.

:)

[SWriverstone]

I think about this question all the time—the fundamental question of...what's more important for the *average* rider—the gear? Or technique? (Yeah, yeah...I know..."Both!")

But seriously—pick a sport, any sport—and chances are high that even if you're an "advanced amateur" in the sport...someone who is on the U.S. team will be able to take old, beat-to-hell gear (including a dull-edged board) and still kick your butt all over the place.

To me, this completely undermines the notion that gear is critical. My point is that while I certainly don't seek to use crappy gear...I've always believed that what's in your brain (and through extension, muscle memory) is WAY more important than the gear you're using. For example, what if your board's edges are dull, but you are a master of weighting the entire length of the edge perfectly...and perfectly shifting that weight to precisely where it needs to be at any given point in a turn? (No, I'm nowhere close to that!)

Now I suppose if you think you could kick an Olympic team member's butt if you're riding a sharp board and they're on a dull one...then that's different. :) But I doubt many here would say that...

Scott

[Erik J]

If I'm out riding and I know that all of my equipment is sharpened, tightened, waxed etc, and I'm sucking, then I know that the only weak link in the equation is me.

Technique has taken me farther than anything else, but having the right tool for the job has allowed me to explore that techniuqe more so.

[wjholm]

get a PTC tune and you'll realize.

a waxed base is not nearly as important unless you are racing.

Just had Mike tune my Coilers --- BIG difference!! Not cheap but worth it IMO.

[Mike T]

Technique has taken me farther than anything else, but having the right tool for the job has allowed me to explore that technique more so.

Very, very well said... this quote could apply to so many discussions on this forum!

[SWriverstone]

Technique has taken me farther than anything else, but having the right tool for the job has allowed me to explore that techniuqe more so.

That *is* very well said and true...BUT...many people (in many sports) obsess far more over gear and arcane minutiae than technique. Gear can be lost or damaged...but technique is part of YOU forever.

Scott

[Call me jack]

I would imagine that technique is more imortant than tune. Although in more high performance areas (ice) with more skill riders (or just all same skill level riders) equipment quallity would be the determining factor

As the demand on the riders technique and skill increases, and riders ability to meet that demand increases, the abillity for his equipment to perform at the level the rider is demanding becomes more important. Otherwise the riders overall performace will be compromised.

[Fastskiguy]

Just try to skid a bit on a board with no base bevel then put a 1 degree bevel on it an you'll see a huge difference. Yeah, 1 degree, not that much, only on the edge, a few mm wide, can't matter, right? Well...it does when you pivot the board. Makes no difference in a carved turn, can't tell'em apart. Kinda funny that way.

And for sharpness, well, that's important too.

[carvedog]

Some seem to be implying that not sharp edges shouldn't make that much difference.

Whether the snow is perfect or not, if I have just honed my edges ( I also never file between waxings but just use polishing stones or diamond stone if burred bad), my confidence factor in the edge lets me charge so much harder and the reward from the confidence is the edge doesn't go away.

Works for me.
Sharp matters. Smooth matters. Beveled base and edge matters. Wax - not so much as long as it's not too soft on a cold day. But it still does matter.

[Phil]

I think about this question all the time—the fundamental question of...what's more important for the *average* rider—the gear? Or technique? (Yeah, yeah...I know..."Both!")....

Scott

I have to say that I agree with the entirety of your post, unlike how I felt about your "black diamond" post. ;)

I would never go so far as to say that you should not have your gear tuned well, but I believe that people go overboard and put too much importance on it. I tune my boards once or twice a season (I am an ~80 day/year rider). When I used to race, I tuned them much more. As a freerider, I really don't see the need. Edges have to be pretty dull before they will not bite with good technique. In fact, I used to spend time with an ex-WC ski racer that often would detune the whole edge when we had hero snow just because there was too much bite for the level of skill that they had (my words, not theirs).

[philfell]

I think about this question all the time—the fundamental question of...what's more important for the *average* rider—the gear? Or technique? (Yeah, yeah...I know..."Both!")

But seriously—pick a sport, any sport—and chances are high that even if you're an "advanced amateur" in the sport...someone who is on the U.S. team will be able to take old, beat-to-hell gear (including a dull-edged board) and still kick your butt all over the place.

To me, this completely undermines the notion that gear is critical. My point is that while I certainly don't seek to use crappy gear...I've always believed that what's in your brain (and through extension, muscle memory) is WAY more important than the gear you're using. For example, what if your board's edges are dull, but you are a master of weighting the entire length of the edge perfectly...and perfectly shifting that weight to precisely where it needs to be at any given point in a turn? (No, I'm nowhere close to that!)

Now I suppose if you think you could kick an Olympic team member's butt if you're riding a sharp board and they're on a dull one...then that's different. :) But I doubt many here would say that...

Scott


I disagree. Just because someone with more skill than you can beat you on worse equipment DOES NOT mean equipment dosen't make a differance for YOU.

Tuning is important, if you have ever ridden a professionally tuned board you would never question this. Your boards ride better, this means you have more potential to have more fun. Who cares about weather someone else is better than you, it's your riding.

You can feel good boards when you ride them, just because Chris Klug could get on an old prime and beat you while you are on a new Kessler dosen't mean you should not think about getting a Kessler.

If I were to race in the Baja 1000 in the trophy truck catagory, I would still finish last, more than likely I would not finish at all. That still does not mean I would want a truck that is not maintained or had street tires on it.

[Bobby Buggs]

I have gone more than a season without a tune on my glass Coiler:smashfrea
If your relying on the tune you may be looking in the wrong place.

[philfell]

That *is* very well said and true...BUT...many people (in many sports) obsess far more over gear and arcane minutiae than technique. Gear can be lost or damaged...but technique is part of YOU forever.

Scott


Yes technique is the most important, but is a part of the total equation. Why focus only on technique when that is other things in your control that can make a differance in you riding?

Technique takes work and is something you will ALWAYS be working on. Other things you can do to make riding more enjoyable that do have an effect are things like tuning, having proper equipment (not only boards, boots and bindings, but good goggles, outerware, ect.). You should minimize things that could have a negitive impact on your riding experience, that way you get the most out of the time spent on the hill working on technique.

[bigdyno]

I think that skill development and good equipment are codependent. You will improve until you plateau on shabby gear. Improved gear will allow you to build skill, rinse, repeat. Once you have established skill, you will most likely be able to ride poor equipment better than when you did not have said skill level. I just think it is easier to develop skills with the best tools possible. You try photoshopping with an Apple IIE.

[ARCrider]

why question if tuning is necessary?
of course it is

why else would all those tuneshops be so busy?

[Phil]

why question if tuning is necessary?
of course it is

why else would all those tuneshops be so busy?

For the same reason that I keep bike shops busy: I suck at biking, so I try to compensate by putting a lot into my gear, so that I can get better. Better gear makes me better, right?

Again, I am not saying that tuning is not important, just over utilized in place of technique.

[carvedog]

For the same reason that I keep bike shops busy: I suck at biking, so I try to compensate by putting a lot into my gear, so that I can get better. Better gear makes me better, right?

Again, I am not saying that tuning is not important, just over utilized in place of technique.

Me no follow. How can a tune be used instead of technique?

Your sh!t is either tuned or it is not. Taking one minute to run your edges every time with a stone before you go out carving is not out of line either.

Tuning will definitely help you ride a little better in almost all conditions. Used doesn't mean over utilized.

I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?

:confused::smashfrea:confused::smashfrea:confused: :smashfrea:confused::smashfrea:confused:

[Phil]

How can a tune be used instead of technique?

It can't. That is my point. A lot of people worry so much about tuning all of the time and continue on with poor technique. I am saying spend more time developing the technique.


Taking one minute to run your edges every time with a stone before you go out carving is not out of line either.

Sounds easy enough, but I still just don't see where it is necessary. I like to just grab my board an go. I do not see taking a stone to a board as being the same as a tune, though.



I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?


How can it not help? Sure it can help.
I just think that a lot of people waste a lot of time and money on tuning that would be better spent riding and learning.

[gdboytyler]

get a PTC tune and you'll realize.

a waxed base is not nearly as important unless you are racing.

I disagree here. I got a PTC tune on my custom Donek 165 and Madd 158 SL. Couldn't tell the difference.

I still might send my new Coiler to PTC at the end of the season, but mainly because I don't want a local shop screwing up my board.

[NateW]

I am just shocked that there is any division about this at all. It's not like we are sliding rails here. Most are carving. How can it not help?

I've been A/B testing two boards with very similar specs (one an alpine prototype from a local builder) and it wasn't until the 2nd day that I realized how different the tunes were. On normal packed-not-icy snow the two boards rode very similarly, but when it turned icy, the 1-day-old board with the fresh tune and 1/3 bevel felt completely different from the not-tuned-in-20-days board with 1.5/2 bevel (bevel numbers are base/side).

Way better edge hold with the sharper angle and fresh tune. I can only guess whether the fresh tune or the sharper angle makes more difference, but the total difference was huge.

So basically I'm saying that I don't think it makes much difference until/unless it's icy. When it's icy a good tune makes a big difference. When it's soft, the difference is pretty subtle.

[Fleaman]

Bordy!, Bordy!, Bordy!

Make a video.

[philfell]

It can't. That is my point. A lot of people worry so much about tuning all of the time and continue on with poor technique. I am saying spend more time developing the technique.



Sounds easy enough, but I still just don't see where it is necessary. I like to just grab my board an go. I do not see taking a stone to a board as being the same as a tune, though.



How can it not help? Sure it can help.
I just think that a lot of people waste a lot of time and money on tuning that would be better spent riding and learning.


First weather a person tunes or not has nothing to do with their technique. But a person with bad technique will have a better time on a well tuned board. Plus most people tune in the evening, a time when they can not work on technique, so them tuning does not take any time away from working on technique. Your first point makes no sense.

If you keep your gear maintained, most people will do fine by running a course stone over their edges and it will make a differance.

To put things in a perspective you may understand. I ride mtn. bikes often in the summer. I by no means am a competitive bike racer, but I do like it very much. When by derailure is out of adjustment or "tune" my bike shifts like crap. Yes I can still ride it, I will enjoy riding it more if I tune it. Yes Lance Armstrong (yes Lance rides Mtn. bikes very fast he was 2nd place in the Ledville 100 last summer) can still beat me on a poorly adjusted Huffy even if I'm on the best bike in the world. Does this mean I should work more on my fitness and not care if my shifting is not adjusted properly? Or should I take the 30 seconds to adjust the barrell adjuster and fine "tune" things, then go riding?

A properly maintained machine allows a person to perform better regardless of the individuals ability. Will a good tune turn someone into a World Cupper? NO. But it will help that person perform better on their equipment.

[Phil]

First weather a person tunes or not has nothing to do with their technique. But a person with bad technique will have a better time on a well tuned board. Plus most people tune in the evening, a time when they can not work on technique, so them tuning does not take any time away from working on technique. Your first point makes no sense.


O.K, so when I used to see some at the mountain where I used to work tuning several times a week (and again, I am not talking about taking a stone to the edges) for extended periods of time DURING THE DAY and I would ask them why they are tuning the same board AGAIN, the answer was always the same, regardless of who I asked - it's icy today and my edges just aren't biting.

So let's assume they tuned three times a week and all totaled they took an hour (go to the tuning area, set up, tune, tear down, clean up, go back) each time. I would bet you that I could have taken three of those hours one week and two the following - still allowing them a full tune every two weeks, but working on technique for five hours that they would not have otherwise - they would have better edge hold on any conditions - and still have good edges.

Does that make sense?

Good Lord. All I am saying is that I know a lot of people that are too obsessed with keeping good edges but pay less attention to learning better technique. The guys that are disagreeing with me have all put their time in learning the technique. :rolleyes: :smashfrea


Let me remind you how I started in this discussion:



I would never go so far as to say that you should not have your gear tuned well...

[John Gilmour]

first off.

Wax...

If you don't your board will be harder to turn particularly in dicey situations. If you don't wax, you might not get the board around in time... eat it ..and get injured.

I landed with ALL my weight on my neck 9 days ago..30mph to ZERO into a mogul. If my edges had been sharp I likely would have ridden it out.

The guy who tunes my boards used to be .....me.... until I tried 5 well recommended people (Pro tuners) in the Aspen Valley- I found this guy, Peter, who tuned for the Swiss and Canadian National teams (Read ICE) and he does the best edges I have ever seen. Totally smooth yet sharp- with perfect blending and nose and tail bevel. I attribute the top 20% of my riding ability to his tuning expertise. The other tuners I tried... not worth it........at all a waste of time and money- I would have been better off buying a new file. Peter is the ONLY tuner I have found who I was happy to spend 1/3 of my grocery money on my tuning budget.

Years ago... maybe 1986, I was at Flatton, err Stratton in VT. Just before a big race. I was riding a SIMS x-2000- same model board Craig Kelley rode before he defected to Burton- he won the US Open on it- but with Koflack Valuga 4000 lites.

I was bombing down lower standard...and some guy blows past me on a Sims Kidwell (a much shorter board) he waxed... and I was left wondering why I was riding such a huge plank if a guy could dust me on a shorter board in soft boots. And to top it off he could ride that board anywhere.

So if you don't wax and tune your edges.. why are you even bothering to ride Alpine? You may as well ride a freeride deck that you wax and sharpen.

Anyway...how important is tuning?

It's totally a big deal. Your riding will plateau without a good tune...and a good tune can give you the confidence to totally bury your self into the boards g-forces with confidence.

I scored a nice place to live in Aspen... what were the biggest deals to me were the garage with the tuning bench- and the ski locker. So Peter.. nice guy, gets fired from Durrance ski shop. He's a tuner without a bench. Last thing I ever want is for this guy to leave Aspen Valley. I landed on my neck because I could not find the guy and my edges were dulled out.

So I make him a deal. He gets to use my garage and ski bench for tuning and in return he is my personal tuner at no charge to me. Everyday I go to my ski locker and every single stick is tuned and waxed.

Of all the things that make me happy about Aspen... this is one of the biggest deals to me. So today- I go out to get a little exercise.. doctor told me it was ok to ride (though not to work...go figure) - "just be careful..." and of course I'm excited to ride and start wondering how much I've lost... but I'm on a freshly tuned board. I make a similar mistake to teh one that landed me on my neck..and this time I am in softer snow that can not edge as well... but with the sharper edges- I just dip the nose in while in the air- it grabs (on a powder board) and the board augers in... and voila no "neck plant".

In case anyone does not believe in tuning.. you can come by my place... and I'll arrange for Peter to tune your board... You'll think you got a new higher performing model.. And like me... you just might find yourself riding better than ever before.

Peter is so into it... he's the "Serial Killer" of snowboard tuning... he lives it. He is as much into tuning as Eric Brammer is into teaching.

I'm going to hook him up with Thanos of Dominator to try all the new protype waxes.

I''ll expect him to tune a few people at SES and eventually nearly everyone by the end of the sesh.. but if anything stops him from tuning my boards- I'm locking the door.

If tuning didn't make a difference ... there is no way I would bother to set this guy up in my garage.

One other story. I worked for a bunch of hockey players who owned a BIke Shop- Back Bay Bikes in Boston. We needed a way to get loyal customers.. So I instituted a program.. Buy a board from us and you got free tunes..as many as you wanted... for the entire season.

Next year.. want unlimited tunes? Well.. you could buy an unlimited tune card for $250 or just plunk down cake for a new board with unlimited tunes... and of course... that is exactly what people did. And if you tune a board ALL the time.. tuning is quick because you don't get 4 season untuned burred up horror shows in to tune- just touch ups here and there.

The concept was simple. If you kept coming into the store ... likely you might buy something (they did- hats, gloves, shirts- all the softgoods stuff that was 50% margin) . It created store loyalty and customers would bring friends with them since they were going to the shop every week.

I told customers to tune their board before EVERY TIME THEY WENT OUT. So these two dorky kids really took me up on the offer. They tuned every time they went out.. So their boards rode EXACTLY the same EVERY time they went out. SO the board was not a variable... just the snow was...and as a result their technique progressed a lot faster. Because the edges were Always consistent. I rode with them.. and even though they were not athletes by any means... they still rode better than all the rest of my customers.... and I can only attribute that to having consistently tuned boards... Oh the boards??? ...nothing great.. 1992 Avalanche D-series which $hitty wave wood cores. $hitty Avalanche bindings and midrange Airwalk boots So it was not the board construction, gear, or athletics, or instruction.. it was just tuning consistency that made them better.

What happened to those two guys? One was hit by a Jeep when crossing Route 9 in Chestnut hill and ended up being a perfume sprayer in a department store- his brain was never the same.. and the other guy... he's probably a great rider still hunting for another store with unlimited tunes.

For me- Peter is my unlimited tune guy.. and as a result I keep getting better each season.
________
Ford Proving Grounds History (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Proving_Grounds)

[shredliner]

first off.


For me- Peter is my unlimited tune guy.. and as a result I keep getting better each season.

Interesting story.

Any chance you could freelance Peter to Copper first week of April for the USASA Nationals?

He'd get a lot of business and I would LOVE to learn from someone like that.

[John Gilmour]

He likes all the carvers. But he has clients here too (mostly skiers). He is being flown to Switzerland in 2 weeks to tune there.

So long as you don't have a much much much nicer garage ...
________
Easy Vape (http://www.vaporshop.com/easy-vape-vaporizer.html)

[queequeg]

I took an early season summit county trip (Nov-15) this season, and on the second day I got my board tuned at Precision Ski & Golf in Frisco, on the recommendation of another Bomber member. I typically tune myself, and think I do a reasonably good job though certainly not as good as a professional. I ride my own tunes 90% of the time. The next day we had good hardpack carving conditions at copper with just a tiny bit of ice showing through here and there, good conditions for feeling out the tune.

My board felt like a brand new board, that was way better than the board I had been riding before. I can carve on ice, with my own tunes but this was totally different. I could hook into turns violently and aggressively on the ice, with no concern whatsoever. It refused to skid when I tried (actually, somewhat irritating).

And probably most critically, the amount of feedback the board provided beneath me was incredible - and that is where I think the main benefit lies. When your base is perfectly flat and waxed, with your edges are razor sharp - the board lets you know the instant your edges have bit. It feels totally different. With a base that is not as flat as it could be and edges that are sharp but not that sharp, the feedback the board gives you feels "latent" and wishy-washy compared with the type of response after the tune from Precision. The place where I actually benefited from the tune was not so much in the apex of my turns but in my transitions - I was able to speed up my transitions tremendously because of the early feedback I was getting from my board. Even with somewhat dull edges, once the board is high on edge, it will probably grip provided good technique. But early in your turn initiation when you don't have that much inclination yet, sharp edges make a big difference and can help you get the most out of your technique.

I would actually argue that a properly tuned board is less forgiving than a somewhat out of tune board, and that beginners would probably be better off on something with edges that are less sharp (though not dull) to make the board feel a bit friendlier.

As far as technique vs tune goes. Yeah, you can't make up for bad technique with a good tune, but the idea that a good tune is irrelevant is way off IMO. It matters. And like good equipment, the better you get, the more of a difference it makes in your riding.

[philfell]

Interesting story.

Any chance you could freelance Peter to Copper first week of April for the USASA Nationals?

He'd get a lot of business and I would LOVE to learn from someone like that.


Ross Hindman and myself live in Copper now and will be offering our tech services during USASA Nationals.

We haven't determined cost yet, but it would include race prep the night before, plus on-hill support, ie overlays at the start, ect.

You would have to provide your wax and overlays, or if we used our wax we would have to figure out a wax budget for you and make it work with that. For X-Games the athletes Ross was teching for had over $150 in wax at wholesale prices on their boards. This is why our prices will not include the actual wax, because it can vary so much depending on how over the top you want to go with it.

We are already booked for the Open Class SBX day. Send me an email if you know anyone interested.

[SWriverstone]

I think the bottom line is this...

Between getting a good tune...and getting better technique, the former is a LOT easier.

It's human nature—our default mode—to seek out the path of least resistance, hence our obsession with fancy gear. (If a good tune and slick gear makes me better, cool! All I had to do was spend money!)

If I can have both good gear and good technique, absolutely—I'd like to! But given a choice, I'd take technique any day.

Maybe I can say it better this way: I still think my technique is mediocre (though I might look better than that at times). When I lose an edge mid-turn, I always assume the fault wasn't with the board or the edge or the snow...but with ME. And I really believe that 95% of the time, that's true!

Even if a world-class tune would reduce my mid-turn blowouts by 20%...I would never be happy knowing that I'm "better" because I have a world-class tune. I'm only happy knowing that I'm better because...I'm better! (And not the gear.)

:)
Scott

PS - BTW, I just submitted a $136 order for tuning gear at Tognar's! LOL

[Erik J]

I think the bottom line is this...

TUNE YOUR BOARD!


But given a choice, I'd take technique any day.

Unless I'm missing something, you don't have to choose one over the other....TUNE YOUR BOARD!


Even if a world-class tune would reduce my mid-turn blowouts by 20%...I would never be happy knowing that I'm "better" because I have a world-class tune. I'm only happy knowing that I'm better because...I'm better! (And not the gear.)

A "better" rider will realize that a tune is part of the knowledge of being a better rider....TUNE YOUR BOARD! Stop being stubborn, stop justifying, tune your board and practice!


PS - BTW, I just submitted a $136 order for tuning gear at Tognar's! LOL

Now you are a better rider for incorporating tuning into your arsenal of carving knowledge.....TUNE YOUR BOARD!

[benttech]

So after reading this thread the bug bit my ass... what should I pick up for those who want to DIY?

Who makes the best edge/base sharpening tools? What about files or polishing stones, do I need them all? Ive only hotwaxed before and left the edges and base to the selfdeemed experts at the local shop, but now Im willin to drop the coin to do it myself.

The EC guys swear by everything offered by the swiss company Tooltonic..

[roman]

i'm shure there are some good ones out there. but none i know is as good as any of the tooltonics. specially the 'roto-finish' works awesome.

[jtslalom]

I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast.

[roman]

normally i go with 1-2 times fully (stone)grind the base a season and a weekly treat with the diamonds to keep'em sharp. for me it works best that way in the swiss alps.

[queequeg]

i'm shure there are some good ones out there. but none i know is as good as any of the tooltonics. specially the 'roto-finish' works awesome.

Do you know of any place you can get these in the US? I've been trying to find someone who sells their stuff here but no luck.

[Kex]

why question if tuning is necessary?
of course it is

why else would all those tuneshops be so busy?
The reason for this is also being addressed similarly in another topic. Why do some people wear neoprene knee braces? For the most party, they don't help to support the knee unless they also have a metal structure built in. Its a psychological effect. if it makes you feel more confident on your knee, you wear it. With edges, if it makes you feel more confident about getting high on edge, you tune.

I'm not saying there isn't a purpose to tuning. I believe I acknowledged how I can see a tuned edge helping in icy conditions when I posted the topic. But in hero snow, I think tuning your edges serves no purpose. Thats why I was asking for other peoples POV's


first off.
Wax...

If you don't your board will be harder to turn particularly in dicey situations. If you don't wax, you might not get the board around in time... eat it ..and get injured.

I'm sorry but I cannot think of a single situation where it is safer to have a waxed board than a non-waxed board. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant with this comment, so please explain this more in depth. As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period.

Edges, I can see coming into play with safety, but not wax.

[queequeg]

I'm sorry but I cannot think of a single situation where it is safer to have a waxed board than a non-waxed board. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you meant with this comment, so please explain this more in depth. As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period.

Edges, I can see coming into play with safety, but not wax.

Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control.

[John Gilmour]

Ross Hindman and myself live in Copper now and will be offering our tech services during USASA Nationals.

We haven't determined cost yet, but it would include race prep the night before, plus on-hill support, ie overlays at the start, ect.

You would have to provide your wax and overlays, or if we used our wax we would have to figure out a wax budget for you and make it work with that. For X-Games the athletes Ross was teching for had over $150 in wax at wholesale prices on their boards. This is why our prices will not include the actual wax, because it can vary so much depending on how over the top you want to go with it.

We are already booked for the Open Class SBX day. Send me an email if you know anyone interested.



Great...so I'll assume Peter will stay in Aspen... :) Besides... why do you guys need to go faster...You should just have one tuner making everyone run the same wax.. then rider will count for more.
________
Glass pipes (http://glasspipes.net/)

[John Gilmour]

Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control.

what he said....

Not waxing makes a board feel sluggish with drag. Certainly if your tires were inflated to 50% you wouldn't feel safer would you? Where wax makes the MOST difference other than flats is ironically on Steeps. You NEED GOOD WAX on real steeps- it makes it far easier to bring the nose around.
________
Extreme Vaporizer (http://extremevaporizer.info)

[tpalka]

As I see it, a non-waxed board will go slower, which is safer. period.

That's why I prefer to drive a sputtering 1-cylinder junker rather than a faster and responsive car :)

[Kex]

Wax is not just there to make you go faster. Waxing your base will make the board more agile on the snow, permitting you to initiate your turns more easily. Also, because the board is gliding more easily, you will feel your edges better than if you had not waxed, and you are always safer when you get more precise feedback from your board. Waxing your base increases control.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one. My dad has been riding the same Nitro board for 15 or 16 years. He has never tuned this board once. Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly.

Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board... and I'll remind you - we are talking about the difference between a relatively fresh tune, and a 15 year old board that has never been tuned.

I can see no way in which waxing helps to increase your agility... Especially from a carving standpoint where you turn by changing your angulation, not by skidding your board back and fourth. Perhaps you can give me a techinical description on how it increases your agility?


what he said....

Not waxing makes a board feel sluggish with drag. Certainly if your tires were inflated to 50% you wouldn't feel safer would you? Where wax makes the MOST difference other than flats is ironically on Steeps. You NEED GOOD WAX on real steeps- it makes it far easier to bring the nose around.
I agree it makes your board sluggish, in fact that was my main point on why it was safer, because it causes you to ride slower.

Somehow I think using tires at 50% as an analogy for old wax is a little bit of an exaggeration...

[John Gilmour]

...............me

I understand the snow might be different there.:freak3:
________
COLORADO DISPENSARY (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[carvedog]

I agree it makes your board sluggish, in fact that was my main point on why it was safer, because it causes you to ride slower.


If you are stuffing the nose in, you want to have a slower, stickier board? Sluggish is not good. Trust in this. And the truth shall set you free.

:biggthump

[KingCrimson]

If you are stuffing the nose in, you want to have a slower, stickier board? Sluggish is not good. Trust in this. And the truth shall set you free.

:biggthump

My Burton would do this if you were on a flat run flat basing, between ice and slush it felt completely binary, going between ass hauling and locking the brakes. The decelleration was so sudden that it was alarming. A week later with the snow even worse but fresh wax, it had a much more consistent feel over a wider range of snow.

The new board...well I've never had it poorly waxed, plus it has the PTC structure :1luvu::1luvu::1luvu:

[philfell]

Slower board is not safer.

The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place.

Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control.


John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy..............

Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions.

[loupa5]

Snow...whats snow! We don't get snow in the east coast, more like packed ice.

The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me.

[Zone]

I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast.

That's one guy's opinion riding out West. I know the Swoard guys are pretty fanatical about tuning their boards and don't mind riding icy conditions.

[Zone]

I love the comment about EC not having to tune their boards because they never ride on sub-par conditions. That's funny. Tuning your board is a must. I know a guy who gets down right crazy tuning his board with as much as a 7 degree bevel on the sides. He made me a believer after watching him ride mach 5 down the front face of whiteface on a hard day. To each their own but I know that I tune every 7 - 10 days on the snow. For those who don't think it is necessary you must not be from the east coast.

That's one guy's opinion riding out West. I know the Swoard guys are pretty fanatical about tuning their boards and don't mind riding icy conditions. And you're right. east coast you don't tune you're toast (hey that rhyme sort of...:freak3:)

[carvingchef]

It’s amazing how a thread that started with “How important is a well-tuned board?" shifted to “what’s more important tuning or technique” each individual can decide for himself or herself, you will never have everybody agree on something<O:p</O:p
going back to the original question a well tuned board is important and it makes a difference, more noticeable on icy condition than on hero snow but it does make a difference, I am an intermediate carver at best and when I go on hero snow I am a better carver, so snow conditions make a difference too, but usually I don’t know the snow conditions until I get there, however if my edges are sharp that doesn’t make me a worse rider on hero snow but it sure helps if it’s icy. If my riding sucks on a board with dull edges, it could be me or it could be the board, if my board is properly tuned and I still suck, then I know it’s me and I’ll work on my technique, if I know my board is tuned I never worry about the tuning while I’m riding I just work on my technique and having fun in the process<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p


Maybe not perfectly analogous but consider the difference between poor and high quality cutlery. Perhaps a resident chef hear on Bomber could weigh in. Sharpened cutlery, tools and the like bring real pleasure when they operate efficiently. Most knives will cut, just a matter of how well.
<O:p</O:p

That is a different analogy and I don’t know if it was directed at me but I keep my knives extremely sharp, it makes cutting a lot easier, precise and faster, there are probably a lot of chefs out there with better knife skills then me but if you give them a dull knife and a leg of veal and give me a really sharp knife and a leg of veal I promise you I can de-bone that sucker better and faster than they can, the dull knife just doesn’t cut it<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

My $ .02<O:p</O:p

[Ladia]

Very.

[John Gilmour]

Slower board is not safer.

The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place.

Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control.


John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy..............

Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions.


Ha Phil,

A very famous racer from the 1970's once told me. If you're not cheating you really aren't racing.

I know you could never get guys to use the same wax... likely you'd bust them with cera f in a coke vial...
________
Portable Vaporizer Reviews (http://vaporizers.net/portable-vaporizers)

[photodad2001]

Snow...whats snow! We don't get snow in the east coast, more like packed ice.

The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me.

Not scraping enough off. Too much wax can do that. I also like to take one of those green scotch brite sorta scrubby thingies and run it up and down after scraping.

[John Gilmour]

snipped...
I can see no way in which waxing helps to increase your agility... Especially from a carving standpoint where you turn by changing your angulation, not by skidding your board back and fourth. Perhaps you can give me a techinical description on how it increases your agility?



Somehow I think using tires at 50% as an analogy for old wax is a little bit of an exaggeration...

(can I say 29.031% then?)

Ok... I know this is hard to believe.... but when you are on edge you are actually still putting P-tex on the snow. if you look at the area near your edge it will be very white and dry (since you never tune) this drags in a turn and makes it harder to turn. Today I carved Aztec while riding with Ray S. (Virus Ray who was on his metal board all dialed) I was in 2008 soft boots, 2007 soft bindings and on a 2005 powder split tail board If I had not tuned and waxed...friends would be making funeral arrangements for me. Not waxing would have made my board grabby and when you are on a pitch as steep as Aztec... the "normal force" is near zero- so you don't have much weight to overcome a grabby board. So you really need a slick board to let you thread it until the edge grabs.

If you don't believe me- get me a plane ticket to PA- and take me to a slope at your resort the same pitch as Aztec. I'll send you down it on an untuned unwaxed board. Then I'll carve it on my tuned waxed board.

This will never happen because there is nothing steep in PA other than ice formations along the highway- and AFAIK they don't groom those.


Just trust us and believe that there wouldn't be a healthy tuning industry if tuning did nothing.. or...if you're a troll you can keep debating.

Seriously... got to svst.com buy yourself a 2 degree side edge, and a laser cut file. Splurge for a nice diamond stone. And while youa re at it...get a nice ceramic white polishing stone.

Watch several decent online tuning vids.

Watch ski tuning vids ONLY not snowboard tuning vids... most of the snowboarders have no f'ing idea of what they are doing.

like this one by some idiot who tells you to put a 2-3 degree base bevel in yoru board... (you can throw the deck away after that)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvq9g39h1Ks&feature=related

Skilled carvers ... you can cringe when watching this.. he suggests 2-3 degree bottom bevel!!! Holy crap... can we say "snow saucer"? Fricking bozo is using electrical tape to make a bevel...and of course it won't be consistent.. he even says use scotch tape... moron. He says the boards are sharp from the factory.... not....... unless you order a Madd with a PTC tune.

How much base bevel is ok?? very little for carving.. You get almost a degree off of any sanding belt.

Peter says .3-.5 at most meaning it will be .5 near tip and tail and then down to .3 and then likely flat between the feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52D5wbFxRcs&feature=related

most schitty tuning... this guys end result would be worse than factory..lol.. I would be so pissed if this guy tuned my board. I have had people (Often unknowledgeable ski tuners) tune my carving boards and put a 2 degree base bevel in them...and I just have to throw them away.

This guy is a much better tuner... ski guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGaWzDtMlM&feature=related

You likely won't need the super aggressive panzer file. I don't agree with the full length stroke... your file will likely clog and cut unevenly at the end. - IMHO I think 6-12 inch strokes are plenty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Snxx-d_AA&feature=related





tune with your ears- listen to that cutting sound of the file on the edge. use less pressure as you continue to hone the edge and shorter smother cuts.


Practice on a schitty pair of old skis and then file your edges..

Throw away that 15 year old snowboard piece of garbage and get a job bagging at a local supermarket for 3 weeks and buy a better board (last years model at discount) and tune it from day one.

Oh.. and tuning... makes no difference on loose dry granular... not as far as I can tell. But you will notice it once you ride real snow fast on good terrain.

[KingCrimson]

Not scraping enough off. Too much wax can do that. I also like to take one of those green scotch brite sorta scrubby thingies and run it up and down after scraping.

My old man told me that it's only necessary to do so with base structure. Apparently, file cards work too.

Any thoughts on this?

Gilmour- With all due respect, as far as I know, bevelling that much is perfectly acceptable for a jib board. At least he isn't recommending that the edges be rounded, which is very common down here. IMO, expecting him to tune the board for only carving is the same as reading a photo caption for a resort's daily photos that says "Hard carving" and expecting to see anything but a softbooter skidding.

[John Gilmour]

yeah.. I now and most snowboard tuning videos are for park boards on youtube... that is why for carving you should ignore that stuff.. after all this is for BOL not transworld.

as for clearing a base, scrape well. and you can use a super open structure material that looks like red scotch brite (the grens tuff tends to pollute the base and can dull edges) .. I prefer to use rotobrushes to clear out wax from the structure. use hte brass horse hair one at slow speed one pass light pressure, then go to the regular horse hair brush at medium speed with water and more pressure, then use a grey nylon rotobrush at top speed full pressure with misting water, finally like 20 passes at high pressure with water using the white brush.. Panasonic drills are nice for this.. fast recharging packs and they don't overheat like some others... but someone might know of a better drill as this was from like a decade ago.

[tenorman]

hi kex

i agree with all the excellent posts above extolling the benefits of tuning but yet you seem unconvinced. however, all the posts concentrated on the performance and safety benefits of tuning but none mentioned the potential cost savings.

being an inveterate cheapskate i try to make my equipment last as long as possible. regular waxing actually hardens your base making it more scratch resistant so over the long haul you save money on base repairs and grinds.

if you visually inspect your edges regularly, you will see tiny little burrs and scars that accumulate overtime if you don’t remove them regularly. eventually they become case-hardened to the point where a file just skips over them without biting and you will be forced to spend hours with a diamond stone removing the case-hardening before you can even think about using a file to restore the edges. at that point the edges will be too dull for anything except soft snow conditions and even YOU will have to consider sharpening them.

it takes less than a minute to run a stone along both base edges and side edges before you put your board away after riding. even if i never hit any rocks or hard ice i still stone the edges as it removes the day’s accumulation of possible case hardening and it can restore the edges to close to its original sharpness. obviously, if conditions are sub-optimal (i.e. ice, rocks etc.) you will have to make more than 1 pass with the daily maintenance stone but even 2 or 3 passes per edge won’t cost you more than 5 minutes a day. it will likely save you from having to pay for expensive stone-grinding of the edges if they get case-hardened to the point where they can’t be easily (or even possible to be) restored by hand.

i also wax EVERY time I ride. it may seem expensive but then again I am a cheapskate and want my base to last—i am sure it has saved me money in the long run. there are things to do to mitigate the cost of frequent waxing. the best money saving tip i ever saw was posted on bomberonline about 10 years ago by SEAN MARTIN of DONEK snowboards. if i recall correctly, he posted that he only waxed his entire board about once a year. however, he also posted that he regularly waxed his board on the binding platform area (from a few inches in front of the front binding to a few inches behind the rear binding.) also he said he applied the wax a bit more generously along both edges. his rationale being that the edges and the area between the feet used up the most wax and that little wax was required toward the tip or tail. in addition when he scraped his snowboard he saved the wax scrapings in a pot for future use (or reuse.) he mentioned that in most cases very little gets absorbed and that most of the wax ends up on the floor anyway and that everyone would save their wax scrapings if they ever took the time to calculate how much the stuff costs that ends up in the garbage.

KEX, hopefully this appeal to your wallet along with the previous excellent posts about increased performance and safety will cause you to at least reconsider your position on tuning.

[jp1]

Loupa5, "The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me."

What is, "what ever I could find" ?

Just curious, because of my own ignorance when I started skiing I was reading about waxing. Not having 'ski wax' around, thought what could it hurt to use a car wax? I found out quick, exact same results as you experienced! Another thing that WILL cause same results is Riding on a lift 'Thru The Guns' ! If you get the base of your board blasted by a gun and it freezes to it, it feels like you have studs in the base when you 'try' to get off of the lift!

[jp1]

Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :).

[roman]

Do you know of any place you can get these in the US? I've been trying to find someone who sells their stuff here but no luck.

have you tried to reach them directly?

[JK moscraciun]

So after reading this thread the bug bit my ass... what should I pick up for those who want to DIY?

Who makes the best edge/base sharpening tools? What about files or polishing stones, do I need them all? Ive only hotwaxed before and left the edges and base to the selfdeemed experts at the local shop, but now Im willin to drop the coin to do it myself.

The EC guys swear by everything offered by the swiss company Tooltonic..

Usually all tool and wax manufacturers offers some good information's along with the usual marketing blabla
you can find some videos to!

just google some
ex:

videos
http://www.holmenkol.com/en/service/video.html

pdf(manuals)
http://www.tokous.com/InfoCenter.htm
http://www.toko.ch/en/preparationprofessional_tools_edgetuning.html

[bigdyno]

I tried using the long skinny dinner table candles to wax my board but found that the short, fat ones that smell like cinnamon work best.

See here:
http://www.swixschool.com/web_tysk/index2.html

http://www.slidewright.com/index.php

and especially here:

http://www.tognar.com/

these are just some sites I found.

[bobdea]

Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :).

don't bother with the swix paste if you're using the wizard, it works better.
the swix paste tends to be slow as **** at first. Also, it has solvents that dissolve any real wax on your base.

[carvedog]

I tried using the long skinny dinner table candles to wax my board but found that the short, fat ones that smell like cinnamon work best.


Better cinnamon than those damn potpourri candles.

Got a good laugh at that thx.

[John Gilmour]

Everytime I ride I towel dry board before putting into the car. I visually check & feel edges for damage. If damaged, touch up as soon as I get home before waxing. I use Swix F4 paste wax (usually an 1"-1 1/2", along each edge is the only worn area) every time out. I use to 'hot wax' entire base every 5-7 times out, but this year, have gone to 'Rays Way' as recommended by Tuner instead. I know my equipment is NOT my problem :).

How do you get the F4 to work?.. I have tried for years unsuccessfully to make that stuff work as well as hot wax.. what's the trick??

[bobdea]

I'm going to have to disagree on this one. My dad has been riding the same Nitro board for 15 or 16 years. He has never tuned this board once. Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly.

Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board... and I'll remind you - we are talking about the difference between a relatively fresh tune, and a 15 year old board that has never been tuned.



wax only lasts about four full days out on the hill to have your base really dry.

your board is dry as sh it in the sahara well.
because your old man has goofy ideas and rides a deck older than R kelley's latest girlfriend does not mean it's good to do it that way.
I'm not trying to be a dick here and I've stayed out of this thread until now because it made me snicker but you ought to listen up.
I've put in my time as have many others here, some racing, patrolling, doing events, teaching or just riding 150 days a year because they are economically advantaged and we tend to agree. tune your ****.

[loupa5]

I found it in a shoe box, still waiting on my order from Tognar. Wow, your right about the "Guns" I didn't think about till now. Its possible my board got blasted on the way up.


Loupa5, "The other day I wax my board with what ever I could find. Then after about three to four runs at the local slopes I was getting of the lift and I about did a face plant. I'm not sure why but I think the wax froze. The board had no slide..it felt like someone laid a carpet underneath me. Really scared the sh#t out of me."

What is, "what ever I could find" ?

Just curious, because of my own ignorance when I started skiing I was reading about waxing. Not having 'ski wax' around, thought what could it hurt to use a car wax? I found out quick, exact same results as you experienced! Another thing that WILL cause same results is Riding on a lift 'Thru The Guns' ! If you get the base of your board blasted by a gun and it freezes to it, it feels like you have studs in the base when you 'try' to get off of the lift!

[queequeg]

Never been waxed, never been sharpened. He claims its because he doesn't want to go faster. My board on the other hand, is waxed about yearly.

Just for fun, my brother, dad, and I occasionally like to switch our boards around to try something new. I notice no loss in agility or the ability to initiate my turns when I am on his board...

Well ... if you only tune your board once a year, the difference between your board and your dads is going to be Nil. You have to wax regularly or your base dries out. Otherwise, not everyone is going to be able to feel the difference between a well maintained base and a neglected one. Like I mentioned in a prior post, tuning and good equipment have a much more gratifying effect as you improve. (Obviously I've never seen you ride, but it is just my experience that the effects of good base maintenance are more obvious as you get better).

[John Gilmour]

Well, to people on this BBS asking about tuning importance is about the same as asking the above question.

If you ever prepped a new board strictly following the Dominator instructions... you would think you are being pushed from behind.... provided it is not -5 out.

You can send a board to be professionally tuned.


Send it to PTC in Massachusetts- they do a good base job...and lord knows your base really needs it.. it might even take many many passes through the machine to get old base burn out. but wax it yourself. Youll have to spend 2-3 hours to load the base by warm waxing.

And though you can recycle wax... in my experience it isn't as good... it's like washing clothes in dirty water....they get a bit cleaner..better than not washing at all...but not really clean.


Likely in PA... there aren't that many skilled tuners....and as I said before.. on loose granular... or frozen granular... it doesn't seem like a huge difference.

[SWriverstone]

....and as I said before...on loose granular...or frozen granular... it doesn't seem like a huge difference.

...and those are the ONLY conditions we ever see in the Mid-Atlantic (well, that and pure 7-11 slush!).

Scott

[bobdea]

...and those are the ONLY conditions we ever see in the Mid-Atlantic (well, that and pure 7-11 slush!).

Scott

in slush a good wax is key.
the difference between cruising through cat tracks or walking, I hate walking.

[jp1]

bobdea, interesting observation about the F4 if using the wizard. I never felt slow as **** with the F4, and because it left the base 'shiny' like after a hot wax, I felt it was doing its job. It didn't seem to last more than a couple of hours until the very edges, about 1" to 1 1/2" in seem to dull, thus why I was waxing them every time out (between hot waxes).
It sounds like you are using the Rays Way (wizard) system? If so, does it leave the same result (shiny, appearance wise) as hot waxing? The reason I ask is because I just got a used board that the base had the appearance of being spotty (dried out/not shiny in areas) and no matter what I did (or how many times & how much pressure) with the wizard, could not get the whole base to look shiny. Like the entire base was not taking the (Dominator Graphite Zoom/All Temperature) wax? I finally ended up hot waxing it last night, now the whole base has a shiny finish, as I have been use to in the past. I'll try to refrain from using the F4 and strictly use the wizard as a touch up also now, and see the results.

John Gilmour," How do you get the F4 to work?.. I have tried for years unsuccessfully to make that stuff work as well as hot wax.. what's the trick??"
I never said, nor do I feel it is as good as hot waxing, I used it as a way to 'touch up the wax worn off of the edges between hot waxes'.

Thought process was, base was shiny again (not dried out looking) and most always glide as good or better than others, so felt it was better than not using anything !?

By the way, most all of my riding is in Pennsylvania. I have noticed when I go to Vermont that the wax usually seems to last 2 to 3 times longer before the base starts to get that dull look.

[scotts.Scheinman]

A proper tune and wax can be the difference between a great day and a crappy day. Read about it, learn, ask questions, do as much of it as you are able. It is important.

Think Snow

nothing else needs to be said

[carvedog]

Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control.


Wise words.

[Kex]

(can I say 29.031% then?)

Ok... I know this is hard to believe.... but when you are on edge you are actually still putting P-tex on the snow. if you look at the area near your edge it will be very white and dry (since you never tune) this drags in a turn and makes it harder to turn.... Not waxing would have made my board grabby and when you are on a pitch as steep as Aztec... the "normal force" is near zero- so you don't have much weight to overcome a grabby board. So you really need a slick board to let you thread it until the edge grabs.


Just trust us and believe that there wouldn't be a healthy tuning industry if tuning did nothing.. or...if you're a troll you can keep debating.


I'm sorry if you think I am trying to be a troll. It is not my intention. I am merely trying to get an actual reason as to why waxing is important. As far as I can see, going faster is the only reason to wax. I'm not asking for opinions or unfounded statements, I'm asking for a technical explanation as to why its important.

I do ride on more than PA conditions... I do yearly trips out west, usually to Sun valley, and typically visit Vermont once or twice in addition to some PA riding, so I have experience on all snow types and all conditions. I may not have as many years or boarding days per year under my belt as many of you, but that's why I'm asking you guys. I do have 14-15 years of boarding experience, which makes up almost 3/4 of my life, as well as being an engineering student, so I do feel that I know enough about the sport and physics to make a reasonable opinion.

Speaking of physics, that explanation given makes no sense at all. You are correct in saying that on a steep hill, your normal force is low, but that actually means the wax has less of an effect on you. In this situation, gravity put its usual amount of force on you, but because of the extreme angle, it causes you go accelerate down the hill at a faster rate. A board with old wax on it will have a higher coefficient of friction(u) than new wax, but F(friction) = uF(normal). Since your normal force is lessened considerably, so is your force of friction, meaning the "smoothness" of the base has less effect.


Slower board is not safer.

The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place.

Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control.


John G. your idea of making everyone wax the same is good, but then that puts people out of jobs and in this economy..............

Until there is a rule that states everyone must wax the same, everyone will be looking for that little edge in the competitions.

With your board "grabbing" more, its the same as i was talking about above. It is the result of your board having a higher coefficient of friction due to old wax.

It does not mean you have to put more effort into making the board do what you want. As carvers, we turn and control the board through angulation. And angulation, as you know, is raising a side of the board up vertically to make the edge bite. The direction of this motion is completely independent of the friction in your base.

Also, friction is a constant force. It will not cause your base to suddenly grab the snow once you are going mach 2. It will be a constant slowing factor from when you first start moving until when you next stop.

"Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control."

I completely agree with this statement, however I dont believe a new wax gives you more control. I'll relate it to walking down a sidewalk. With your argument, a new wax is better. This is equivalent to saying a lower coefficient of friction is better. Ice has a very low coefficient of friction, its what causes us to slip on it. Are you saying that you have more control over yourself on an icy sidewalk than on a clean one?

The fact is you dont have more control on an icy sidewalk. Its actually better to be on a snowy sidewalk than an icy one, because we can grip snow with the treads on our shoes. This is the same reason we prefer hero snow to boilerplate. We can grip the snow with our edges better than we can grip ice. friction is our friend.

Anyway, if anyone can give me an actual explanation as to why my logic is flawed, I would love to hear it. I feel I am open minded, and my views on edge sharpening have been changed. Obviously, considering that so many people are telling me that it is important, I cannot completely disregard their opinions, but what I am looking for is not unfounded claims, just an explanation

[BlueB]

Also, friction is a constant force. It will not cause your base to suddenly grab the snow once you are going mach 2. It will be a constant slowing factor from when you first start moving until when you next stop.
This is true only on uniform surface. Snow conditions change a lot from one patch to another. Don't tell me you never experienced going just fine, then slowing abruptly just a split second later, when riding in spring conditions, on an ill prepared board.


This is the same reason we prefer hero snow to boilerplate. We can grip the snow with our edges better than we can grip ice. friction is our friend.
But not in the way you explain. On good snow board goes furter in, so it's the increased latteral plane that opposes the skid, not increased friction of the surface's texture.

[philfell]

Kex you have been so far off in this entire thread, do you really beleive what you are saying or just laughing at the responses?

[Kex]

Kex you have been so far off in this entire thread, do you really believe what you are saying or just laughing at the responses?
I guess you didn't even bother to read when I said I wanted an explanation. Do I really believe what I'm saying? no, i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply for sh*ts and giggles -_-

I'm sorry, but it's just hard for me to believe that a fresh wax is as important as you all say it is, in a sport where 90% of the time less than 20% of your base is touching the snow. Maybe if we were all people who bombed down the hill flat on our bases, but that's not what I do, and I assume its not what you do either.

please dont post any more spam like this. If I'm far off, tell me whats off, don't just leave comments for no reason. your post in no way contributed to this topic

[bobdea]

I guess you didn't even bother to read when I said I wanted an explanation. Do I really believe what I'm saying? no, i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply for sh*ts and giggles -_-

I'm sorry, but it's just hard for me to believe that a fresh wax is as important as you all say it is, in a sport where 90% of the time less than 20% of your base is touching the snow. Maybe if we were all people who bombed down the hill flat on our bases, but that's not what I do, and I assume its not what you do either.

please dont post any more spam like this. If I'm far off, tell me whats off, don't just leave comments for no reason. your post in no way contributed to this topic

okay, I have a challenge for you, go to a large resort that is making snow and fine a gun that's running wet where the rest of gun are getting enough air. take a run at full speed on a waxed board first then a board that's not seen was in a decade.

if you get up to the same speed on the unwaxed board........



this reminds me of the threads where people claim their asym factory primes and koflach boot are just as good as the new boards.

wax makes the most difference on wet snow, luckily most snow is wet unless it's -20

your unwaxed board will work great on the coldest day of the year, just sharpen the edges to deal with the ice. The second it gets a touch wet you're ****ed.

[GeoffV]

This thread has been bugging me since it was posted. I've tried to refrain from posting but I can't take it any more.:mad: For those that are challenging if tuning and waxing makes a difference are most likely not at the ability yet to notice a difference between a good and bad tune. I'm sorry but I'm calling BS on that. I CAN notice a difference between no tune and a good 3 and 1 degree tune, base grind and wax. Honestly for those that are questioning if a tune makes a difference let me challenge you guys.
How many years have you been carving?
The only argument I will except is that you can get away with less of a tune in soft West coast conditions vs. East Coast but either way there is a difference and a benefit's to tuning.
Give me the exact same board that has not been tuned for a few years and a tuned board and through me to wolfs on a scrapped down slope and you will see the difference.
Or better yet, have Bordy test this out on a race course and let him tell you first hand how much of a difference a tune makes.

Are you trying to tell me that Bode Miller doesn't need to tune or wax his skis because it wouldn't make a difference?:eek:
There are people that make a living tuning and waxing skis/boards for racers. Tuning is far more critical for us free carvers than it is for jibbers. We are on edge 80% to 90% all day long. A warn down dull edge will not hold in chalk or icy conditions, period.

Ok, I'm getting off my soap box now:o

[Kex]

Why is everyone talking about racing? no sh*t you are going to wax if you race, the whole point of racing is going fast. Did you even read what I was asking?

[trailertrash]

Kex,
I think you have it in your head that tuning doesn't matter and you are just waiting for somebody else to agree with you.

Ease off the contradictory tone in your posts and you might find it gets a little easier here.

John

[GeoffV]

Why is everyone talking about racing? no sh*t you are going to wax if you race, the whole point of racing is going fast. Did you even read what I was asking?
It doesn't make a difference if your racing or not a well tuned board will ride perform better. As i stated in my 1st post, West coast hero snow is an exception to the rule.

How many years have you be carving??

12 years ago I couldn't tell a difference between a tuned and not tuned board, but now after 22 years of carving I can.

[Kex]

Kex,
I think you have it in your head that tuning doesn't matter and you are just waiting for somebody else to agree with you.

Ease off the contradictory tone in your posts and you might find it gets a little easier here.

John

I don't feel that I'm concrete in my stance. As I said before, I'm trying to keep an open mind, and all I have asked for for quite some time is a techinical explanation, i.e. the physics behind it, that makes a freshly waxed(not talking about sharpened anymore) board perform better(and by perform I dont mean finish faster in a race, I mean help you to carve better).
But you are correct, i have been a little defensive in my stance, I'll ease off.

It doesn't make a difference if your racing or not a well tuned board will ride perform better. As i stated in my 1st post, West coast hero snow is an exception to the rule.

How many years have you be carving??

12 years ago I couldn't tell a difference between a tuned and not tuned board, but now after 22 years of carving I can.
I have been officially hardboot "carving" for less than one year(first time on hardboots was early march of last year), but I've been been snowboarding for 14 or 15 years.

Also, i have never back to back compared an untuned board to a freshly tuned board, other than the aforementioned casual board switch between my dad and I. This is why I am asking for a technical explanation behind it. I've heard from enough of you to realize I'm most likely wrong, but I want to know exactly why it is that a fresh wax helps.

[Jim Callen]

Also, friction is a constant force. It will not cause your base to suddenly grab the snow once you are going mach 2. It will be a constant slowing factor from when you first start moving until when you next stop.

"Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control."

I completely agree with this statement, however I dont believe a new wax gives you more control. I'll relate it to walking down a sidewalk. With your argument, a new wax is better. This is equivalent to saying a lower coefficient of friction is better. Ice has a very low coefficient of friction, its what causes us to slip on it. Are you saying that you have more control over yourself on an icy sidewalk than on a clean one?

The fact is you dont have more control on an icy sidewalk. Its actually better to be on a snowy sidewalk than an icy one, because we can grip snow with the treads on our shoes. This is the same reason we prefer hero snow to boilerplate. We can grip the snow with our edges better than we can grip ice. friction is our friend.

Anyway, if anyone can give me an actual explanation as to why my logic is flawed, I would love to hear it. I feel I am open minded, and my views on edge sharpening have been changed. Obviously, considering that so many people are telling me that it is important, I cannot completely disregard their opinions, but what I am looking for is not unfounded claims, just an explanation


Like it was previously said, snow is a variable surface. Different conditions can happen for many different reason, as small as getting sun or not getting sun on the slope.

And you compare what Phil said to walking on a sidewalk, because, obviously, snowboarding is very similar to walking on a sidewalk.

Let's compare what Phil said to ice skating. Suppose you have an idiot tuning your skates. It's all roughed up, and he didn't get all the rust off of the blade. Think you're going to be moving in a safe manner on the ice? Nope. The rust will grab and you will fall on your face. Obviously this isn't a perfect analogy, but it sure beats the heck out of the walking on the sidewalk one.

Everyone here has made well phrased, logical, intelligible responses as to why tuning is important. If you haven't grasped it by now, just delete the thread, because I don't think you're going to get it.

[Zone]

I have been officially hardboot "carving" for less than one year(first time on hardboots was early march of last year), but I've been been snowboarding for 14 or 15 years.



Give the guy a break. The explanation is right there, we've been all through it.

[Jack Michaud]

undeleted per Kex's request.

[John Gilmour]

Ever want to find out if your thoughts are moving in the correct direction??

Take it to an extreme.

Kex- you postulate having a board with more friction (untuned) makes for a "safer snowboard".

Ok I'll bite.

So instead of waxing wrong ..ie too soft (High friction) or no wax at all still high friction- though not as bad....

let's go for "extreme safety"


Now I know you don't believe my post about friction on steeps... according to what you say take a board with a very high static friction and ride the steepest trail you can find. See if you can link carved turns on steeps.

According to what you say and your well thought out calculations as a budding engineer... it should be no problem.... in fact you should be able to handle the steeps better and safer according to your calculations with a snowboard with high static friction. Higher friction bases are safer right? According to what you said...

So...Lets go for a really "safe snowboard". One you won't have to wax ever again.

It's a really cheap experiment.. about $20 in skateboard grip tape.... far far less than a high quality wax job... quick and easy to apply. cover the entire bottom of your board with skateboard griptape...sandpaper side out.

And according to your hypothesis- which you say is sound... the board will be safer- and slower. I'll readily agree it will be slower... but your argument is that it is safer... go out and link some "safer turns" on the steeps.

- just make sure your health insurance is up to date before trying this out.

There is a reason they don't make wooden bottom downhill skis anymore.

Sometimes..I say things that closes threads.. sorry.. but this thread has to die....here.

[b0ardski]

crystaline structures have sharp edges, this is why sandblasting works so well. Snow & ice will shred ptex that is not protected.:smashfrea

[philfell]

Slower board is not safer.

The reason an unwaxed board is slower is because it does not slide as quickly on the snow. Hence the snow "grabs" it more to cause it to be slower. This means you must put more effort into making the board to what you want, because the snow is trying to hold it in place.

Safe is when you have more control, NOT when the snow has more control.




Kex you keep saying that no one is offering an explination, The above quote I feel sums up well why a waxed board is better than an unwaxed on. Yes you are right there is no scientific data presented here, but I feel you should be able to follow the concept.

You have more control over a board that slides on the snow versus a board that is grabbed by the snow.