Tinkler Rocketman

[pokkis]

Here few comments about my new Tinkler toy :1luvu:
http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rocketman1.jpg
Length 180cm, waist 23cm, radius 11-13m.
Full rocker
http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rocketnose.jpg http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rockettail.jpg
I've been now running this board on slushy afternoon slope, medium soft groom and medium hard wavy groomed slope. And it is working all of them so nicely. Been riding mainly stix full loose or only slightly tightened, just to get used to rockers.
I can get board full flat with stix if i turn all of them fully tight.
Have not yet change to ride it on full hard surface but i'm sure that this will come later this season.
This board really rocks :ices_ange
Cant wait to get it also on real deeper snow too.
Will give updates later this season about when more miles on different surfaces.
Oh-yeah, if someone wonders, yes this board is built for slopes, so this is not pow-board :D

And can not wait to get my hands on my new BlackMamba built by another genious board wizard, more story about that later :eplus2:

[Jack Michaud]

I don't get it. Why build a board for on-piste riding with full rocker? :confused:

[Skwalleur]

Will be cool to see in Oppdal Pokkis!

[MUD]

Interesting.......

Is it stiff (comparatively)?

[MUD]

I don't get it. Why build a board for on-piste riding with full rocker? :confused:

Lets look at it the other way..... Why build a board WITH camber?????
Maybe we really don't need it as long as you are always on edge (on-piste).

[Hans]

Nice board Pokkis, hope it will work out on hardpack also, but it does ;)
I had some several long talks with Mike Tinkler, the builder of these boards, last weeks. Seems that this rocker works perfectly with the combo of the sticks and with no camber in the middle (flat), the board will initiate short or long turns very easily, even with a longer board like a 180 or 190. A 23cm wide board will feel like a 19cm board , a 20cm board will feel like a 16cm board. I am looking forward when my new Tinkie will arrive: length 190cm, 20cm width, 11-13 SCR. As Mike told me how it would ride........

[pokkis]

Interesting.......

Is it stiff (comparatively)?
On my scale medium stiff

[KingCrimson]

I don't get it. Why build a board for on-piste riding with full rocker? :confused:

I think unweighting and having the board not wanting to turn is a saving grace..having it always shaped like it's turning would get frustrating.

[Jack Michaud]

Lets look at it the other way..... Why build a board WITH camber?????

To distribute pressure from under your feet out to the ends of the board, of course.

[svr]

Sweet Ride Pokkis,
I am very happy with mine as well. It is amazing how the rocker actaully works much better than it would seem.

cheers,
sandy

[MUD]

To distribute pressure from under your feet out to the ends of the board, of course.

True, but do we need it??????

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Thanks for the ride review Pokkis, I have been anxious to hear the on snow testimony. Mike was really happy with results of "on snow" testing towards the end of last season. Once again the Melding of great riders and great builders push the known builds. Very cool design with nearly infinite board tuning options. Well done!!
Bryan

PS, I love the new "Burly" "Snow-Stix" version. Not to mention the bling factor.
Pokkis, any chance I could get some high res photos of the board all set up?
I would like to add them to the gallery when I bring it back on line.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Sweet Ride Pokkis,
I am very happy with mine as well. It is amazing how the rocker actaully works much better than it would seem.

cheers,
sandy


Sandy, anxious to hear more about your "Sandman" in the deep ?

Another thread?

Keep pushing the limits Dude!!

Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Nice board Pokkis, hope it will work out on hardpack also, but it does ;)
I had some several long talks with Mike Tinkler, the builder of these boards, last weeks. Seems that this rocker works perfectly with the combo of the sticks and with no camber in the middle (flat), the board will initiate short or long turns very easily, even with a longer board like a 180 or 190. A 23cm wide board will feel like a 19cm board , a 20cm board will feel like a 16cm board. I am looking forward when my new Tinkie will arrive: length 190cm, 20cm width, 11-13 SCR. As Mike told me how it would ride........

Well said, I too have always been a fan of "MORE CAMBER PLEASE" , so, as a result of Mike's comments, I too will be giving it a try as soon as I am able.
It actually makes sense, especially when combined with the adjustability of the "Snow-Stix". Good stuff!! Bryan

[Jack Michaud]

True, but do we need it??????

This is a joke, right?

Everything I think I know about snowboarding tells me this board will suck horse apples on the groom. But I've never ridden a rockered board, so what do I know.

[Mike T]

Jack, doesn't your Schtubby have a lesser version of the same idea going on... just in the nose and tail?

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, doesn't your Schtubby have a lesser version of the same idea going on... just in the nose and tail?

No. Basically the camber stops a few cm's (5? 7?) before the nose turns up, to create a more gradual nose kick. I don't believe there is any of that going on in the tail, there would be no point to that. It's got plenty of camber otherwise.

This board has reverse camber.

[MUD]

This is a joke, right?

Everything I think I know about snowboarding tells me this board will suck horse apples on the groom. But I've never ridden a rockered board, so what do I know.

No, I'm serious..... I totally agree with you. But maybe we are missing something. I just can't help to think it would suck though.:confused:

[b0ardski]

I'm sure the adjustable flex of the Tinkler will blow away the bananas that I've tried, were can I get a demo:biggthump

[svr]

Sandy, anxious to hear more about your "Sandman" in the deep ?

Another thread?

Keep pushing the limits Dude!!

Bryan

Bryan, I posted my first ride impressions on my original post, http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22163

The weather warmed up a bit here so have not had the courage to take it out in the sketchy conditions we have now...hope you have been able to go out and ride.

cheers,
sandy

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

This is a joke, right?

Everything I think I know about snowboarding tells me this board will suck horse apples on the groom. But I've never ridden a rockered board, so what do I know.

Jack, typically your statements actually contain some level of technical basis, this would seem like a pretty strong statement for someone that has not even given it a try.

Here is what I KNOW.

1) Pokkis is an expert rider with an interest in building custom boards that will advance his riding pleasure. So far (the point of the post) the reports are favorable. I respect his opinions.

2) 25+ years of riding anything I can get my hands on has shown me that what is different today is standard the next.

3) Mike Tinkler has built the best boards I have yet to ride, bar none. This I KNOW.

[MUD]

3) Mike Tinkler has built the best boards I have yet to ride, bar none. This I KNOW.

And THIS is why I don't doubt it.....

It flies in the face of what I think should not work. That is what makes it so interesting and COOL!

[Jack Michaud]

And THIS is why I don't doubt it.....

I think Tinkler got an order for another four-figure custom and took it, and that's that.

I'm not trying to be negative, but there are some times when technical debate isn't necessary. No amount of unobtanium or shinola is going to make up for the fact that the ends of the board are off the ground.

This is what I know, Bryan: that rockered skis and boards have been built in the past. Look Lamar and Sims Kidwell come to mind. I think G&S made one too. Nobody builds rockered skis/boards for use on piste anymore for a reason. Pokkis is simply repeating history.

This is not a comment on pokkis's riding ability or Tinkler's (sexy) boards, or whatever. If he likes it then great. But I'll wager that right now he's trying very hard to figure out how to ride the thing, and why he spent all that money.

[pokkis]

I have had no problem with board on any surface what i have tried untill today, i'v ebeen very happy camper with that one.
Being just mainly palying with sticks to really feel difference of more or less rocker on different surfaces.
I've been more trying to find surface where it does not work, and hope to find that one too during this season :rolleyes:

[Mike T]

OK, forgetting the rockered Tinkler for a moment... I can tell you from experience that the nose profile on new Coilers *does* make the board feel shorter when running flat that it would with a previous-generation nose profile. And I can tell you from experience that it is a good thing.

The experience I am referring to is comparing a 172 AM-T demo from 4/07 to a 176 AM-T demo from 05/08 back to back on a few spring mornings at Bachelor. Snow conditions range from bulletproof frozen cord to 6-inch deep slush depending on time of day and where the shadows were. BTW both boards have a 12m sidecut. The 176 *might* be only 3 or so cm longer in effective edge than the 172 instead of 4, I'd have to ask Bruce.

No matter which snow surface the 176 felt shorter than the 172 when run flat. And it was good, because it was easier to skid and easier to maneuver through tracked-out off piste stuff, and drop in off the cornice on the Summit. When on edge it felt longer than the 172. Not only that the 176 hooks up "harder but at the same time smoother".

It still seems to me that the rockered tip/tail on Pokkis's board is just a very extreme version of the nose profiles on new Coilers, SGs, Kesslers, Prior Metals.

The flat middle, that's another story, and not one that I have any experience with

[Jack Michaud]

It still seems to me that the rockered tip/tail on Pokkis's board is just a very extreme version of the nose profiles on new Coilers, SGs, Kesslers, Prior Metals.

Dude?

Look at the picture again. The board curves up right after the bindings. It's a U. It's not an extreme version of any modern snowboard with camber. This board has no camber, it has rocker.

When we ride normal boards with camber, when we tilt the board up on edge the camber immediately causes the board to be stressed and pressure to be distributed along the whole edge out to the ends of the board. On a board with rocker, the board will not be under any stress until the board is tilted up higher, at some angle where the deflection of the board caused by the tilted sidecut becomes greater than the deflection that is already built in! I'm sorry to rain on pokkis's parade but this is simply a bad idea that has already been tried. This is nothing new, and I can't just sit here and "keep it to myself" when people are calling this cool and interesting. It's not.

[JJFluff]

What is the "rocker" suppose to do for a rider exactly? What is the idea behind the design?

I find over time, as boards lose there camber, which mine do a lot because I ride older boards, I am making up for it by driving harder and weighting more at the end of each turn. This rocker idea would make me think you would have to work even harder to get the board through the turn. It would feel completely dead.

[MUD]

I think Tinkler got an order for another four-figure custom and took it, and that's that.

Wow Jack! I don't know if you have ever created anything that has your name on it, but this is a VERY rude insinuation.

It's one thing to disagree, this is another.......

[Jack Michaud]

Wow Jack! I don't know if you have ever created anything that has your name on it, but this is a VERY rude insinuation.

It's one thing to disagree, this is another.......

I'm sorry if this is rude, I'm not trying to be rude or put anyone down. Maybe the board works on very soft hero groom. It will not work on hardpack or ice. Final answer. A rockered board is preposterous. I'd sooner ride an asym. What's next, boards without sidecut? Constant thickness? Foam cores?

In this economy if I were a board builder, I'd build anyone's design if they wanted to pay me ~$1500 or more to do so. I'm not trying to make any comment against Tinkler.

[Mike T]

Dude?

Look at the picture again. The board curves up right after the bindings. It's a U. It's not an extreme version of any modern snowboard with camber. This board has no camber, it has rocker.


You're right, I didn't look closely enough at the pix. I thought I was looking at a U with a large flat section in the middle.



When we ride normal boards with camber, when we tilt the board up on edge the camber immediately causes the board to be stressed and pressure to be distributed along the whole edge out to the ends of the board.



I don't see how camber is a necessary ingredient in getting pressure to the ends of the board. Take a board that is flat, but has sidecut, and tip it on edge, I think the same thing happens. Maybe not as quickly but it happens. If the board has a deep sidecut, I think it still happens pretty darn quickly.

FWIW, I am not a believer in "full rocker can carve well" unless I have the chance to experience it for myself. But I used to think that boards need a ton of camber to be fun and that the camber should extend all the way to the widest points of the board on both ends. Riding a Kessler and numerous Coilers where the cambered section is much shorter than effective edge has proven to me that I was wrong about that. All the Coilers I've seen have a pretty low camber compared to Prior, Madd, Donek but I've had as much if not more fun riding them. So I wonder what I am going to be wrong about next ;-)

[Jack Michaud]

You're right, I didn't look closely enough at the pix. I thought I was looking at a U with a large flat section in the middle.

It might be flat between the feet, but that would barely matter.


I don't see how camber is a necessary ingredient in getting pressure to the ends of the board. Take a board that is flat, but has sidecut, and tip it on edge, I think the same thing happens. Maybe not as quickly but it happens. If the board has a deep sidecut, I think it still happens pretty darn quickly.

Yes, a flat board would behave as described. Camber just mechanically multiplies that effect. Rocker would reduce the effect. The board would not begin to stress (and thus distribute pressure to the ends) until it is tilted up higher.


FWIW, I am not a believer in "full rocker can carve well" unless I have the chance to experience it for myself. ... So I wonder what I am going to be wrong about next ;-)

You don't have to wonder about this, people have already been wrong about it!

Like I said, if this is supposed to be a powder board that will work on soft groom, fine. But let's not think for a second that this is an advancement in carving.

[MUD]

This is what I know, Bryan: that rockered skis and boards have been built in the past. Look Lamar and Sims Kidwell come to mind. I think G&S made one too. Nobody builds rockered skis/boards for use on piste anymore for a reason. Pokkis is simply repeating history.

OK, I have tried the "it's cool" side.... Now comes reality.

Have you ever ridden these boards? You can throw the Avalanche Kick in there also, it's rockered.

The Kidwell I had before I knew how to carve, it was a nice board though.

The Lamar Trickstick RAILED, it is a weird ride, but it is really good!

The Kick is also really good, different than the Trick stick but it railed also..

These were all ridden in Minnesota hardpack/ice.

I have a Kick and a Trickstick if you want to give them a go, but you would have to learn to carve in softies.:eplus2:

Just because we went away from it does not mean it was bad. They had fuel injection in 1957 you know......

[Hans]

In this economy if I were a board builder, I'd build anyone's design if they wanted to pay me ~$1500 or more to do so.That's exactly what Mike is building, so its gonna cost you. These boards are doing a price range from Kesslers and Virus boards and the quality is at least equal. I think Jack may have a point about the boardtechnique. It's interesting what he is putting here. Could be brought with some more elegance/nuance I think, but I am not Jack. But I think that Jack is a serious kind of guy. So everybody has his own (writing)style. But in combo with the sticks and the carbon derbyplate I don't think any boardmaker did this before. Look what you pay for a Kessler with a Hangl plate or a SG board with a plate. Its the same pricerange. You pay more for a BMW or Mercedes than for a Fiat. I am a satisfied customer with my first Tinkler till so far. Lets see what this one will bring....

[trailertrash]

I have had no problem with board on any surface what i have tried untill today, i'v ebeen very happy camper with that one.
Being just mainly palying with sticks to really feel difference of more or less rocker on different surfaces.
I've been more trying to find surface where it does not work, and hope to find that one too during this season :rolleyes:

Have you tried this board on anything that resembles East Coast hardpack ice?

[Jack Michaud]

Like I said, not trying to be rude. I'm trying to be factual and clear, and I don't want to confuse my points with any fluffy nice stuff. And I definitely am not saying anything about Tinkler, the builder is irrelevant.


MUD... please, I thought my Burton Safari railed when I got it. We know better now. And we still have fuel injection.... :confused:

[Bruce Varsava]

OK heres the bottom line!!!
I'm not saying anything as I build boards for almost all involved here but keep it up as I would rather read this than build boards:)

[MUD]

MUD... please, I thought my Burton Safari railed when I got it. We know better now. And we still have fuel injection.... :confused:

You missed the fuel injection thing, it went away for quite a few year, now it is all we have.......

I'll get them out, shoot some video and write up a nice review for both the Kick and the Trickstick.....

I am not saying you are wrong Jack, I an just not as sure as you I guess.

[Mike T]

Yes, a flat board would behave as described. Camber just mechanically multiplies that effect. Rocker would reduce the effect. The board would not begin to stress (and thus distribute pressure to the ends) until it is tilted up higher.

....

But let's not think for a second that this is an advancement in carving.

OK... forgetting about the rockered Tinkler for a moment... let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.

I *know* based on experience that I find these boards "easier to carve hard". Yes, they are all metal, but they've been "easier to carve hard than metal boards without this nose profile".

I am not sure I understand why I find these boards as easier to carve hard but I have a guess... and that is, you're delaying the nose's engagement by a smidgen and that makes it so that more of the edge length gets engaged at once so it hooks up in a very positive yet very stable fashion.

Like I said it's just a guess. I am sure Bruce and others actually know, and if they want to spill it, I'm all ears :)

[Hans]

It's no guess. Due to the shape and the line of the board, the initation of the turn is easier, faster, with less effort, that's what racers are seeking for and that's exactly why these boards can round the gates more easily than a 'standard' shaped board. Well easily, huh, I think I can't keep up with Jasey Jay :lol:

You can here see some drawings about the outline of KSTboards: http://www.k-snow.com/kessler/products.html

[corey_dyck]

let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.
You can add F2 Speedsters to that list. My SL and RS boards have two noticeable kinks in their camber (right where it goes from cap to sidewall) a bit ahead of the front binding and a bit behind the rear binding, when you fully decamber the center of the board the tip and tail slightly rise off the ground.

I'm also really curious if the rockered Tinkler was done on a whim or after some testing. As Jack has pointed out, this has been tried and abandoned. That doesn't inherently mean it's bad, but we all have to wonder what's different this time.

[Jack Michaud]

OK... forgetting about the rockered Tinkler for a moment... let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.

I *know* based on experience that I find these boards "easier to carve hard". Yes, they are all metal, but they've been "easier to carve hard than metal boards without this nose profile".

I am not sure I understand why I find these boards as easier to carve hard but I have a guess... and that is, you're delaying the nose's engagement by a smidgen and that makes it so that more of the edge length gets engaged at once so it hooks up in a very positive yet very stable fashion.


Looking at my Coiler it appears that the nose simply has a much more gradual and consistent upturn which starts further down the board than traditionally.

I learned when doing a project in engineering school on geometric modeling that in order for all the curves of a snowboard to be tangent in all dimensions, you have to stop the camber and sidecut before the widest point of the nose. (If you ponder that for a moment you'll probably say "you needed to go to engineering school to figure that out??") Then you have a blending region where the sides of the board stop curving out and start curving in, and the core stops curving down and starts curving up. IMO, by elongating that region and making the nose kick more gradual, you can more closely match the vertical curve of the nose kick to the curve created by the sidecut when it is bent. That way the nose will slice more than plow, and it won't affect the turn shape as much. This is important because the nose is actually pretty deep in the snow when the board is carving hard - well beyond the end of the "effective edge". I doubt I will ever go over the bars on my Schtubby. (knock wood)

Oh, another point regarding a previous post... for a flat board to have the same response as a cambered board, it would have to be built stiffer. A rockered board would have to be built stiffer yet, and it wouldn't even respond until you tilted it up high enough to further deflect the board.

[tex1230]

wow...just have to add a couple of comments...

1) Anyone who thinks they rail on a look trickstick is delusional. maybe the freestyle could carve (although it was very soft), but the trickstick was one step removed from a lunchtray - difficult to turn at best. (and I actually got paid to ride those boards)

2) I haVe not ridden a modern rockered board, but I have skied on Spatulas and Pontoons, which are both spectacular in deep powder, but almost scary in their lack of control on-piste

[MUD]

wow...just have to add a couple of comments...

1) Anyone who thinks they rail on a look trickstick is delusional. maybe the freestyle could carve (although it was very soft), but the trickstick was one step removed from a lunchtray - difficult to turn at best. (and I actually got paid to ride those boards)


I will show you the delusion.... Video doesn't lie. Maybe I just suck!:(

Maybe I am delusional...... Either way I will post the video. If nothing else we can laugh at it.

[Shred Gruumer]

Bruce if you are reading this. Then your not working on my X6!

:eek:

[felix]

Well it's pretty clear rockered boards didn't work out great 15-20 years ago, but now materials have changed, previously unsuccessful technologies might simply work now.

If on my skis I only tune the middle 50cm of my ski edge below the Vist worldcup race plate, they still stick to ice very good, the only problem is to tighten up the turn by loading the nose, because the nose will slip away while the section under the plate still holds up.
Of course I prefer having the ski fully tuned, but it works with tuning only under your feet too.

That's a bit how I expect Pokkis' board to carve. It should still hold up nicely on ice, but moving weight back and front won't change very much.
As for drifting I think it's clear that rockered shapes simply do this more pleasantly (maybe not faster in a race but with fewer power). And of course the board will feel much shorter than it is, which is nice too. I would have gone straight for 190cm or 200cm though (adding about 20cm to normal construction for same purpose).

I actually do like Pontoons on piste too. Off piste they are not wike enough for my taste though. Gogo Duret Monstre Fats in 1m of pow....

[Pow]

Id like to see a video of this board in action so we can really determine what's going on with the reverse camber and how it initiates and responds in turning. What I can only imagine is that the response is poor and it "turns like a shorter board" simply because the tip and tail do not engage and so you have a significant amount of dead weight. I feel this board's concept could have been achieved more effectively by putting a large sidecut on a smaller board and giving it a little rocker in the nose... wait a minute, that sounds familiar:confused:

[Rob Stevens]

I thought the rocker was added to alpine boards to help with centre pivoted turns on tighter courses.

Without the tip and tail trying to dig in as aggresively, they are easier to swing at the middle, getting you to your line faster and more directly than a carve would have time to.

Cambered boards will drift, just not as predictably.

This shape is proof that course racers have much different needs (stay on line at all costs) than freecarvers whose goal is generally to try and rail everything.

[Jack Michaud]

This shape is proof that course racers have much different needs (stay on line at all costs) than freecarvers whose goal is generally to try and rail everything.

pokkis is a racer?

[pokkis]

I'm riding on NSR also even i'm not racer, just old fart :rolleyes: who likes to experience different stuff to learn :ices_ange

[MUD]

pokkis is a racer?

Jaysey (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23119)


Down at post #5

[Bruce Varsava]

I built a few fully cambered and moderately stiff race T boards with effectives about 163. Waaay to hard to control as they just lock in and would not slide. The decamber allows you to maintain a stiff board for power but still have control. Does aid in turn initiation too however you could thin out the nose and somewhat get a good initiation but then they get kinda flimsy and I would think more likely to dig in and fold up. The pre bent nose gets the job done and is still a bit stiffer to prevent overbending.
This stuff works great for freeecarve as well as I use the full race decamber on boards like the 88 Monsters. Without it, you wouldn't want to be getting in the way of one:eek:
It simply leaves less edge engaged when the board is at a lower angle to the snow for easy sliding and fully engages when up high on rail. Best of both worlds!
How much you use is a function of effective edge vs rider weight for a given lamination structure. Since with metal we cannot change the thickness of the metal, we need to be able to control the power of the board otherwise. With glass boards, you would just use a lighter biax fabric for a somewhat similar result of less power.
BTW racers call it feathering and not sliding;)

[Mike T]

I'm riding on NSR also even i'm not racer, just old fart :rolleyes: who likes to experience different stuff to learn :ices_ange

My NSR is my favorite tool of them all for balls-out freecarving. Rails great at high speeds and I live to tell about it :eek:

[Jack Michaud]

Jaysey (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23119)


Down at post #5

haha, no, Dave was joking. See the wink?

[MUD]

haha, no, Dave was joking. See the wink?

Aaah, I missed that.:o

[Rob Stevens]

Yah... This was tried in the past, but racing was alot different back then.
The pitches weren't as steep. The offsets were greater and it was just easier all around.

We used to carve those courses from top to bottom.

When dual racing took over and courses had to be identical left and right, the flow seemed to go out of them, replaced with a more mechanical turn. This turn had to be performed regardless of terrain, causing the athletes to reexamine how they went around the gates. The modern race course generally requires a bigger centre pivot move above the gate, in the rise line, which takes place on a flatter base and is really side slipping against the line of direction. If your tip and tail dig in, not only will it be slower in a sideslip, but it will hesitate even going there. To paraphrase Bruce, a traditional board doesn't "unlock" as easily.
Once you've set your direction, you're going to increase the edge angle rapidly. It goes on and off like a light switch, rather than gradually like a regular fully carved turn. In this regard, you'll take the board almost immediately to a fully deformed state.
The modern track is much more like a zig zag than an arc. Sliding is slower, without doubt, but the path taken is shorter from gate to gate.

The fact that this has been done before, with no success, is immaterial. Riding with no bindings was done for years before we got onto it again with the NoBoard. What makes it different now is the years of skill and practice being taken back to an old way of doing things. An old idea in a new context makes for an entirely new experience.

Pokkis might not race, but he now owns a board that should do well in one.

[philfell]

This is a joke, right?

Everything I think I know about snowboarding tells me this board will suck horse apples on the groom. But I've never ridden a rockered board, so what do I know.

Don't naysay until you ride a rocker board first. The first turn I made on a skate banana last season, my first impression was......Oh my this technology was make the perfect race board for steep, icey SL racing. There are reports of many of the top World Cup racers testing boards with full rocker for icey courses.

For buffed flatter terrain I think I'd still prefer a board with camber, but when it's steep and firm I'd take a rocker.

[yyzcanuck]

haha, no, Dave was joking. See the wink?

Was I? Kessler is doing some interesting things with the current board shapes.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Yesterday one of our Pro-Patrol loaded the chair just ahead of me. I watched as he skied below me on the chair (soft groomed 36+ inches in the past 48 hours) He was no doubt headed for the pow, but he was carving some beautiful gs carves on very rockered long skis. Looks like it worked well for his weight, conditions and ability.


Looking for a pair to add to the big board quiver. :eplus2:

Rocker= Concave= rocking chair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocking_chair)
Camber= Convex=

Personally I try to avoid Reverse or Anti anything since there is a word to describe it without it?

Or perhaps we should be describing Camber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?s) as "Reverse Rocker" ?

Same applies to "Progressive" and "Anti-Progressive"

Both increasing and decreasing sidecut can be seen as "Progressive"

Progressively larger or progressively smaller. "Anti-Progressive" is simply the opposite. Of what?


Would it not be clearer if we just used rocker or camber?

Not to confuse the issue further, but the Farmer in the rocker IS reading the PROGRESSIVE FARMER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Farmer):o:)

Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Last season I bought a Kessler from one of the pro racers. When it arrived I was afraid it was bent!! I had a previous Kessler and I had heard of the de-cambered nose. This just looked like more than that. Well fortunately I was polite and careful in asking about it, and FORTUNATELY the seller was not quick to judge or reply rashly. It is the way they are made, really!! I appreciate his patience with me.

Then I finally got to ride it!!. (SES08) First impression, squirrelly on the flats or running straight (neither of which I do allot of anyway) However, it rolled into the turns very easy and when I got it loaded it up, powerfull. I felt very much at home on it right away. I loved the board and its weight. It was very damp and rode as close to my "Anton" Tinkler as anything I had ridden before. Day later I broke my leg and sold it to a good friend from my hospital bed in Aspen. He seems to like it allot.

PS. I had promised two BOL members that I would pass it along if it was not considerably better than the Tinkler I already enjoyed. The broken leg made it easier to decide. I really liked the board set up and would have liked to put a few more turns on it before deciding (Hint, hint)

Bryan

[Jack Michaud]

When dual racing took over and courses had to be identical left and right, the flow seemed to go out of them, replaced with a more mechanical turn. ...

The modern track is much more like a zig zag than an arc. Sliding is slower, without doubt, but the path taken is shorter from gate to gate.

Welp... this doesn't sound much like the sport I love.

[Jack Michaud]

Don't naysay until you ride a rocker board first. The first turn I made on a skate banana last season, my first impression was......Oh my this technology was make the perfect race board for steep, icey SL racing. There are reports of many of the top World Cup racers testing boards with full rocker for icey courses.

For buffed flatter terrain I think I'd still prefer a board with camber, but when it's steep and firm I'd take a rocker.

I guess I've been told. WTF... racers using rockered boards... dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria. Where is my god now?? :eek:

When you say steep and firm, you mean a race course, right? Because for freecarving steep firm groom, I can't fathom rocker not sucking.

[James Ong]

I guess I've been told. WTF... racers using rockered boards... dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria. Where is my god now?? :eek:

When you say steep and firm, you mean a race course, right? Because for freecarving steep firm groom, I can't fathom rocker not sucking.

Yikes !!! next thing you'll be pimpin EC :lol:

Gotta try one of these, someone please bring one to SES.

[tinks]

I just want to say a couple of things to the Moderator a go go. This thread started with a guy from Finland stoked about his new board having just gotten off the hill with a good experience and thought he would share. Then it got weird with the Moderator attacking his decision for buying one of my new designs. The Moderator went on to be very rude to me, not knowing my background in rocker and camber boards. I have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by major manufacturers like K2 and Herb O'Brien Water Skis. I have had design consulting contracts with both of these companies specifically for my knowledge on camber and pressure distribution using external systems. Having worked in the K2 lab, Salomon lab in France, and having testing at Boeing with some of my other external vibration systems, I do not need to be schooled by Mr. Moderator a go go about camber and rocker. My designs are not a joke, they are serious designs respected by many.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Yikes !!! next thing you'll be pimpin EC :lol:

Gotta try one of these, someone please bring one to SES.


James, working on it. Unfortunately the boards Mike builds are "One Offs" for clients and it is hard to decide what to build as a "Demo", not to mention the costs. I have a few I loan to people that agree to wear a leash (to me) around their neck while riding. That and they have to sign a 8 page and the title to thier car. ;)

We seriously hope to be able to provide more options for riders to try the Tinkler boards. Few want to risk loaning them out.

I would love to get your "EC" imput for sure. Keep in mind, Mike will build anything you want. The boards are a result of the owner's ideas plugged into Mike's design and building brain. So far the results have been amazing!!
It is up to YOU to know what you want in a board. I KNOW YOU DO!!:):eplus2:


PS, Email Mike with or myself if you are interested in building a board system of your own.

I just got off the phone and Mike will find time to talk with you about your ideas for your ultimate board.

[xy9ine]

I just want to say a couple of things to the Moderator a go go. This thread started with a guy from Finland stoked about his new board having just gotten off the hill with a good experience and thought he would share. Then it got weird with the Moderator attacking his decision for buying one of my new designs. The Moderator went on to be very rude to me, not knowing my background in rocker and camber boards. I have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by major manufacturers like K2 and Herb O'Brien Water Skis. I have had design consulting contracts with both of these companies specifically for my knowledge on camber and pressure distribution using external systems. Having worked in the K2 lab, Salomon lab in France, and having testing at Boeing with some of my other external vibration systems, I do not need to be schooled by Mr. Moderator a go go about camber and rocker. My designs are not a joke, they are serious designs respected by many.

despite the perceived negativity, it's an interesting discussion, and i'd love to hear your perspective on the design. your boards are things of beauty & there's not much info to be had about them out there. any info would be much appreciated.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

despite the perceived negativity, it's an interesting discussion, and i'd love to hear your perspective on the design. your boards are things of beauty & there's not much info to be had about them out there. any info would be much appreciated.

Please understand if Mike doesn't reply right away. He is busy building boards and will look to provide more answers as time allows. I spoke briefly with Mike after his last post, I got the impression he would not be checking his email or posts till Wednesday at the soonest. Although I do not directly speak for Mike on technical issues, I will help where I can and time allows. I have been laid up and dealing with important personal details, however, I hope to be able to update the websites with photos and details soon. Time allowing. Bryan

xy9ine your email is not activated.

Sorry! That user has specified that they do not wish to receive emails. If you still wish to send an email to this user, please contact the administrator and they may be able to help

[Coloradoking]

True, but do we need it??????
it is not required when free riding; but as soon as you start trying to ride that thing through a course you will be rocked in the dome piece (:smashfrea pretty much) by the fact that you have your weight centered in the board as opposed to distributed throughout the board

[dano]

I just want to say a couple of things to the Moderator a go go. This thread started with a guy from Finland stoked about his new board having just gotten off the hill with a good experience and thought he would share. Then it got weird with the Moderator attacking his decision for buying one of my new designs. The Moderator went on to be very rude to me, not knowing my background in rocker and camber boards. I have been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by major manufacturers like K2 and Herb O'Brien Water Skis. I have had design consulting contracts with both of these companies specifically for my knowledge on camber and pressure distribution using external systems. Having worked in the K2 lab, Salomon lab in France, and having testing at Boeing with some of my other external vibration systems, I do not need to be schooled by Mr. Moderator a go go about camber and rocker. My designs are not a joke, they are serious designs respected by many.

Tinklers are hands down THE most super exotic techie boards ever produced. Split tails/noses, adjustable dampening rods, surfboard rocker.... YOWZA! If one can't wrap their head around the concept or try one out...maybe a little ( or a LOT more) ego gagging is in order?

BEST THREAD IN YEARS!

[Jack Michaud]

Okay tinkler... send me one.

I give you my word on my reputation here that I will give it a fair review.

(and fyi... I was asking if MUD was joking with me, not calling your boards a joke.)

[Hotbeans]

cripes. Now I'm interested. And I haven't even received my virus yet..
Anybody like to buy a few hundred pounds of single-estate coffee?

[snowboardfast]

There are some rockered boards being made today. Phill mentioned the skate banana and I believe K2 makes a rockered board as well. I would like to know how those ride. Phil did you like the skate banana? Did it have better edgehold on harder snow conditions with the rocker and the magna traction? I would be willing to try these boards as I ride soft boots as well. Maybe our builder of the Tinkler can comment on the k2 rockered board as maybe he helped design it. It would be interesting to find out how all of these boards work. This may be new ground that is way better. I would like to know as It is fun to try new things in this sport. Don't say that rocker doesn't work if you don't have a background in snowboard r&d. I have an open mind and think all these ideas are great. I am not qualified to design snowboards but am willing to try different boards. That is why we have this sport to begin with as people were willing to go out on a limb to make it happen. Have fun try lots of different boards.

[Hotbeans]

I was just talking to a friend of mine today over lunch about his board that has magnatraction. He absolutely raved about the edgehold on boilerplate/ice. He's riding a libtech freeride deck w/ softies, but he's thinking he has a "hard time" breaking the edge hold with this board..
Hmm. We'll see next tuesday.

[MUD]

My designs are not a joke, they are serious designs respected by many.

Me included. Sorry I didn't do a better job sticking up for you......:(

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Okay tinkler... send me one.

I give you my word on my reputation here that I will give it a fair review.

(and fyi... I was asking if MUD was joking with me, not calling your boards a joke.)

Happy to get that built for you Jack. Really!! Unfortunately, we do not have a single board ready to ship.
They are made one at a time (well, sometimes two different boards are being built at the same time, they seldom if ever the same board design)

Send a USPS Money order for 1000$(down payment is 1/2 the approx board cost), your specs and your shipping address. Wait a month or two and we will have it for you. :) We certainly don't question your reputation. PS, I get mine first :eplus2: (I would have it already if I was certain of things) I.E wasn't sure if I could ride till yesterday! I am one happy camper right now!!!! Woo Hooo!!

Bryan


Feel free to contact Mike or myself through the site.
I am happy to field questions when Mike is busy and visa-versa.
FYI, full system boards are running between 1500-2000 USD
Largely depending on what materials and what "Systems" you wish to incorporate.
Mike ships boards world wide (shipping is additional of course)

[Jack Michaud]

Send a USPS Money order for 1000$

No, this would be for review only. If this is truly the next big thing, he should be happy to get it out there. After I'm done with my review, I'll ship it back and it can become a demo with which to educate others, or you can sell it for a small discount.

But if he's not sure this thing will carve well on eastern hardpack/ice, he probably won't want to have it reviewed on those conditions. I don't think it will work well for freecarving here; that's really my only point in this thread. But if I am wrong then lets prove it.

[Bruce Varsava]

Tinklers are hands down THE most super exotic techie boards ever produced. Split tails/noses, adjustable dampening rods, surfboard rocker.... YOWZA! If one can't wrap their head around the concept or try one out...maybe a little ( or a LOT more) ego gagging is in order?

BEST THREAD IN YEARS!
Heres my take and no disrespect to anyone

Lots of things are super exotic and techie but all that stuff really does for me is adds way more variables to getting a design sorted out. Split nose and tail with adjustable aluminum connection rods, built and raced them in 98 and still have a 196 if someone wants to send me a wad of cash for it:)
When adjusting stiffness I will change core thicknesses by a few thousandths of an inch or a few strands of carbon so the less stuff going on the better. I have had good race success on split tail adjustable boards but found it was too much of a pain to adjust and since you are not riding the same hill with the same conditions run after run, the last thing I want to do is to be standing at the top with a chart in hand trying to sort out which screws to turn. I did find that at the end of the day you could soften the board for easier riding but only did it once as again, too much hassle. All that hardware adds weight too as is I like my boards to come in between 7 to 9 lbs. Not sure what all that hardware weighs? Even if weight helps stability a bit its still not a good thing for a long day on snow.
Dampening rods, I guess they do something but for all around performance lots of dampening and stiffness can be designed right into the board if done carefully, though not adjustable of course. Never did like the way all the energy ended up at that one screw area though.
As for camber and rocker, if you move either way from what I and many others find a good all around amount, the boards start to do one thing better and other things worse. I tested 2 exactly identical boards and one had 6mm more camber, didn't like it as much as it was definitely a more demanding ride. Some would love it but not me and of course what a builder likes usually is where their designs head. Also recently tested 2 similar boards with varied amounts of tail decamber, we are talking a few mm difference here and the difference was noticeable in tail stability. This would lead me to believe that if these designs are taken to the max, it would really get funky.
With the reverse camber business, I would think ( notice I said think) that it would be pretty unstable on hard snow just due to my testing with the smaller varied amounts of camber. Sounds like a decent idea for soft snow though. As for racing them on steep icy stuff, well most courses are not steep all the way so the use, if it worked, would certainly be limited IMO.
Lots of sporting goods I have tested and dealt with that have adjustable parts are often compromises but do of course increase range of use a bit. Back in the day we had adjustable rocker sailboards (Mr Tinkler may have been involved in that?) , sails that you could zip parts on and off of but mostly things end up being heavier, more complicated and prone to breakage or having parts falling off and spoiling your day. Recently saw on TV recently a 2 piece surfboard! Certainly has merits but probably some pitfalls too. Even on my adjustable splits, I was always checking screw tightness!
I do have to applaud the inventiveness of the builders and also the customers who step up to help us out financially to do new stuff that otherwise would only be left in thoughts.
So having tried a bit of it, I do not think all the tech stuff is the direction I want to go as I do not feel it makes a good all around board( easy to build, cost effective, reasonably light and fun with good performance in the widest range of conditions) which is the direction I have been heading in for years. Thats my direction and my opinion so more power to y'all who have different thoughts as that where progress really comes from.
BV
Let the slamming begin:boxing_sm

[KingCrimson]

I would like to know how those ride. Phil did you like the skate banana? Did it have better edgehold on harder snow conditions with the rocker and the magna traction?

I'm waiting for the Lib-Tech van to come to Mt. High (it does..world class jib mountain) so I can try one. I have seen several Skate Bananas with Magnetraction in fairly shoddy conditions, definitely looked like they had something going right. Talked with a guy on the lift up, he said he loved the rocker in the deep soft snow that day. Made me really want to try one, because every time I ran out of speed, I was up to my ankles and unable to pull the board out of the snow.

[trailertrash]

Heres my take and no disrespect to anyone

Lots of things are super exotic and techie but all that stuff really does for me is adds way more variables to getting a design sorted out. Split nose and tail with adjustable aluminum connection rods, built and raced them in 98 and still have a 196 if someone wants to send me a wad of cash for it:)
When adjusting stiffness I will change core thicknesses by a few thousandths of an inch or a few strands of carbon so the less stuff going on the better. I have had good race success on split tail adjustable boards but found it was too much of a pain to adjust and since you are not riding the same hill with the same conditions run after run, the last thing I want to do is to be standing at the top with a chart in hand trying to sort out which screws to turn. I did find that at the end of the day you could soften the board for easier riding but only did it once as again, too much hassle. All that hardware adds weight too as is I like my boards to come in between 7 to 9 lbs. Not sure what all that hardware weighs? Even if weight helps stability a bit its still not a good thing for a long day on snow.
Dampening rods, I guess they do something but for all around performance lots of dampening and stiffness can be designed right into the board if done carefully, though not adjustable of course. Never did like the way all the energy ended up at that one screw area though.
As for camber and rocker, if you move either way from what I and many others find a good all around amount, the boards start to do one thing better and other things worse. I tested 2 exactly identical boards and one had 6mm more camber, didn't like it as much as it was definitely a more demanding ride. Some would love it but not me and of course what a builder likes usually is where their designs head. Also recently tested 2 similar boards with varied amounts of tail decamber, we are talking a few mm difference here and the difference was noticeable in tail stability. This would lead me to believe that if these designs are taken to the max, it would really get funky.
With the reverse camber business, I would think ( notice I said think) that it would be pretty unstable on hard snow just due to my testing with the smaller varied amounts of camber. Sounds like a decent idea for soft snow though. As for racing them on steep icy stuff, well most courses are not steep all the way so the use, if it worked, would certainly be limited IMO.
Lots of sporting goods I have tested and dealt with that have adjustable parts are often compromises but do of course increase range of use a bit. Back in the day we had adjustable rocker sailboards (Mr Tinkler may have been involved in that?) , sails that you could zip parts on and off of but mostly things end up being heavier, more complicated and prone to breakage or having parts falling off and spoiling your day. Recently saw on TV recently a 2 piece surfboard! Certainly has merits but probably some pitfalls too. Even on my adjustable splits, I was always checking screw tightness!
I do have to applaud the inventiveness of the builders and also the customers who step up to help us out financially to do new stuff that otherwise would only be left in thoughts.
So having tried a bit of it, I do not think all the tech stuff is the direction I want to go as I do not feel it makes a good all around board( easy to build, cost effective, reasonably light and fun with good performance in the widest range of conditions) which is the direction I have been heading in for years. Thats my direction and my opinion so more power to y'all who have different thoughts as that where progress really comes from.
BV
Let the slamming begin:boxing_sm

Well said, I think your point about adjustability is right on.

[Hans]

Interesting Bruce has to put here. Bruce has a point here and no point at all.
If you are seeking for an uncompromised board with more 'goals', you even have to buy more different boards from Bruce or any other boardbuilder. The boards can't do everything as good as you are looking for in one board.

I have been sailing competitionsailingboats for years. And I was glad that I could trim my sails and boats how I want them to be in different water and windconditions. Yes it will cost you a lot of time trimming sails and your boat. But you had the possibility to adjust and be faster then your competitor. In freecarving this is less important. But some adjustments on a snowboard can't do harm, as a matter of dealing with it, it are just the sticks you can fiddle with by a Tinkie, by no means does it come in the neighbourhood of the adjustibility of a (race) sailingboat. Just four sticks to fiddle with doesn't cost me time, I adjust them about twice a day when I am sitting in the lift or after having my lunch or beers and it cost me about 1 minute to adjust the sticks.
I just give it a few rounds or less and off I am. I like the adjustability of the sticks and Tinkies are super stable damp boards but lively though. At least my Tinkie 202 is no board for steep narrow pists though, there I use my Coiler X2 and Virus Cyborg for.

@ Bryan (Oldsnowboards): my board comes first, you have to wait......:eplus2:

[Bruce Varsava]

Interesting Bruce has to put here. Bruce has a point here and no point at all.
If you are seeking for an uncompromised board with more 'goals', you even have to buy more different boards from Bruce or any other boardbuilder. The boards can't do everything as good as you are looking for in one board.

I have been sailing competitionsailingboats for years. And I was glad that I could trim my sails and boats how I want them to be in different water and windconditions. Yes it will cost you a lot of time trimming sails and your boat. But you had the possibility to adjust and be faster then your competitor. In freecarving this is less important. But some adjustments on a snowboard can't do harm, as a matter of dealing with it, it are just the sticks you can fiddle with by a Tinkie, by no means does it come in the neighbourhood of the adjustibility of a (race) sailingboat. Just four sticks to fiddle with doesn't cost me time, I adjust them about twice a day when I am sitting in the lift or after having my lunch or beers and it cost me about 1 minute to adjust the sticks.
I just give it a few rounds or less and off I am. I like the adjustability of the sticks and Tinkies are super stable damp boards but lively though. At least my Tinkie 202 is no board for steep narrow pists though, there I use my Coiler X2 and Virus Cyborg for.

@ Bryan (Oldsnowboards): my board comes first, you have to wait......:eplus2:
Of course no one board will do it all but nowadays it is possible to get a lot more out of a single board through good design and materials. Before Titanal there was no way I could ride an All Mountain board easily on steep icy hills, then go off to the side and blast in the wind blown in powder, then go on a blue run and have some nice peaceful carves.Just did this a few days ago here:)
The adjustability of the sticks does sound easy but I was referring to my split tail raceboard which required a screwdriver to move parts around. The hardware does add weight and since I routinely look for lighter components to build with, it is of importance to me and I of course do hear that from others too when they like how the boards they are riding are still quite light.
I just try to keep it as simple as possible for ease of design and use.
BV

[Jack Michaud]

Of course no one board will do it all but nowadays it is possible to get a lot more out of a single board through good design and materials. Before Titanal there was no way I could ride an All Mountain board easily on steep icy hills, then go off to the side and blast in the wind blown in powder, then go on a blue run and have some nice peaceful carves.Just did this a few days ago here:)

This has also been my experience on my metal Coiler. It does it all, with no compromise on carving ability.

[Hans]

The hardware does add weight and since I routinely look for lighter components to build with, it is of importance to me and I of course do hear that from others too when they like how the boards they are riding are still quite light.
I just try to keep it as simple as possible for ease of design and use.
BV
Interesting point you bring here about the weight of the boards. If you look at WC-riders who use plates like Hangl and so on, the average weight of a board with plates is around 13 lbs or heavier. So how important is weight then??

[Bruce Varsava]

Interesting point you bring here about the weight of the boards. If you look at WC-riders who use plates like Hangl and so on, the average weight of a board with plates is around 13 lbs or heavier. So how important is weight then??

I have worked and still do work with top riders and trust me, if they could get rid of the weight and have the performance they would. They have directly said that to me many times. Also its weight is mostly right under foot so no added swing weight. At this time it just seems like a necessary part of the competition. I know one top rider who spent hours trying to lighten it up just a bit.What exactly makes the Hangl an advantage is still up for discussion as I have tried boards with and without immediately on the same hills and could not give a complete answer, I know it nearly injured me a few times so I no way will use it for freecarving, probably not even for racing as at my ability level( which is still quite good) I didn't find I could use its advantages. One instance I went into a toe side and slipped slip out ,the board started bouncing then my front binding ripped out of the top plate as the aluminum threads in the plate could not take the stress. My ankles were glad and I was also glad that I did not start spinning when falling as I would surely have been seriously injured with 13lbs and 184 cms on one leg:eek: Admittedly because I cannot get the time to increase leg strength to my youthful levels I will stay away from it .
BV

[Jack Michaud]

Interesting point you bring here about the weight of the boards. If you look at WC-riders who use plates like Hangl and so on, the average weight of a board with plates is around 13 lbs or heavier. So how important is weight then??

It is apparent to me that we have reached a point where the goals and concerns of racing and freecarving have more differences than things in common. Freecarvers are looking for the pure, round carve on groomed terrain. Racers are looking for maximum speed and the shortest line in a horribly rutted up course. I've done a little racing, nothing serious, but ruts are a major factor that we simply don't have to deal with in freecarving. So saying something is the standard in racing means little to me now. Of course we have racing to thank for metal boards and new nose shapes, but I'm not about to add a 5-7 pound plate to my board and mount my bindings with a 4" setback. (On that note, it appears racers will have freecarvers to thank for the TD3)

I would think that if a racer could have a board that performed as well as a Kessler with Hangl but weighed 5 pounds less, they'd want it. I had a first-gen Prior metal WCR, and it was the lightest board I've ever owned by a significant margin. It was a very cool feeling - almost felt like the board wasn't even there and I was just flying. It also had no topsheet, so it was fragile.

[Bruce Varsava]

Hey Donek, get off this site and get to work:):):)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

No, this would be for review only. If this is truly the next big thing, he should be happy to get it out there. After I'm done with my review, I'll ship it back and it can become a demo with which to educate others, or you can sell it for a small discount.

But if he's not sure this thing will carve well on eastern hardpack/ice, he probably won't want to have it reviewed on those conditions. I don't think it will work well for freecarving here; that's really my only point in this thread. But if I am wrong then lets prove it.


Thanks Jack, not at this time.

[GeoffV]

Hey Donek, get off this site and get to work:):):)

Bruce you must be caught up with orders uh:lol:

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Well said, I think your point about adjustability is right on.

Oh course you would. Describe your experience with a Tinkler adjustable flex snowboard please?

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks Jack, not at this time.

bummer. seems like a vote of no confidence in the board.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan (Oldsnowboards): my board comes first, you have to wait......:eplus2:

Yes Sir, you are correct!! :)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

bummer. seems like a vote of no confidence in the board.


Sorry Jack, you will need to put your money where your mouth is and then wait in line for your chance to express your opinion.

[Jack Michaud]

Sorry Jack, you will need to put your money where your mouth is...

you've got that backwards.

[Rob Stevens]

Before Titanal there was no way I could ride an All Mountain board easily on steep icy hills, then go off to the side and blast in the wind blown in powder, then go on a blue run and have some nice peaceful carves.Just did this a few days ago here:)
BV
What is this board? Can you make it wide so I have no overhang in a duck stance? 175? How much? Bruce... I want one of these.


It is apparent to me that we have reached a point where the goals and concerns of racing and freecarving have more differences than things in common. Freecarvers are looking for the pure, round carve on groomed terrain. Racers are looking for maximum speed and the shortest line in a horribly rutted up course. I've done a little racing, nothing serious, but ruts are a major factor that we simply don't have to deal with in freecarving.

We're happy to bring the knowledge to you.

[trailertrash]

Oh course you would. Describe your experience with a Tinkler adjustable flex snowboard please?

i never claimed to have any experience.

i would never spend $2k on a snowboard i can't demo.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

bummer. seems like a vote of no confidence in the board.
Jack, you write some good articles, however, between your brief periods of objectivity the negativity and bias are simply not good characterists for a "Vice-Administrator-A-Go-Go" or a board tester. So , again Thank you for your offer. We are not interested. Thanks, Bryan

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

i never claimed to have any experience.

Exactly. Opinions and speculations then , correct?

[Rob Stevens]

you've got that backwards.

You've got an ego on you, buddy!
Through the magic of the 'lectriweb, we can see you ride. That, combined with your own admission as to your lack of racing experience, leads me to beleive that you are not in a position to be reviewing this product.
You definitely get the job done, Jack, but you should know where to draw the line, especially when it comes to pinning it on the lastest race stock.

Bryan... Want to sell a "Sno-Dad" yet?

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, you write some great articles, however, between your brief periods of objectivity the negativity and bias are simply not good characterists for a administrator or a board tester. So , again Thank you for your offer. We are not interested. Thanks, Bryan

If the board is that good, it will win me over. I would have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by writing a biased review. I would have a lot to gain if this turned out to be a great board.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

If the board is that good, it will win me over. I would have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by writing a biased review. I would have a lot to gain if this turned out to be a great board.

Mike Tinkler will make this decision after reviewing your offer and this thread.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan... Want to sell a "Sno-Dad" yet? Not quite yet (http://www.snodad.com/) :eek::cool::biggthump Looking for the "Blue" one!!

WARNING: Don't click the "Enter" link.

[philfell]

I'll say a statement that has been echoed on this site for the past few years. If you haven't tried it you cannot comment with any amount of true education on weather it is a good thing or a bad thing.

Jack as a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want. The mistakes I see most freecarvers make are the same ones I see racers make. The boards now are actually pretty close. Open your mind to what the innovators are doing. If it works you get better products, if it doesn't then you aren't out anything so what do you care?

[Jack Michaud]

You've got an ego on you, buddy!
Through the magic of the 'lectriweb, we can see you ride. That, combined with your own admission as to your lack of racing experience, leads me to beleive that you are not in a position to be reviewing this product.
You definitely get the job done, Jack, but you should know where to draw the line, especially when it comes to pinning it on the lastest race stock.

Where was this board promoted as race stock? I would be reviewing the board from the perspective of a freecarver in the eastern US. I think I'm qualified for that. If you want to think that's egotistical, I won't argue that. If I've been too big a meany in this thread to be loaned a board to review, I can suggest others out here.

Like I said - freecarving, racing, different goals. Sounds like the board may pick up a racing endorsement. Wouldn't it be nice to get a freecarver's endorsement too? Or won't it work for that?

As for who needs to put their money somewhere, I'm not the one selling a rockered board for $2k.

[trailertrash]

Exactly. Opinions and speculations then , correct?


I think you are misreading my statement. I wouldn't have to have any experience with a tinkler to make the statement I did.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I think you are misreading my statement. I wouldn't have to have any experience with a tinkler to make the statement I did.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Folks, get your comments in quick. I can hear a "Lock" being prepaired.

[lowrider]

keep it fun keep it affordable bring back the kildie flex !

[Jack Michaud]

I'll say a statement that has been echoed on this site for the past few years. If you haven't tried it you cannot comment with any amount of true education on weather it is a good thing or a bad thing.

One can apply their knowledge of theory to make a hypothesis about what might or might not work. I've never ridden a full-suspension mountain bike, but I can say I think it would be better than my hard-tail. My earlier post did say I've never ridden a rockered board so what do I know. But I am free to say that I don't think rocker is a good idea.


Jack as a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want.

I strongly disagree. I have a ton of respect for you and what you do, Phil. But I can tell you as a freecarver I have absolutely no use for the flexy bindings like Burton or F2 that racers use. My race-derived metal board is awesome, but on the right conditions my glass livlier-than-hell boards are also awesome. No serious racer would be caught dead on a Madd with TD2s.


If it works you get better products, if it doesn't then you aren't out anything so what do you care?

I would like to try this board. I'm not going to pay $2k for something I can't imagine working well on the slopes I ride. My tone is affected by the fact that I get annoyed when every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. Argh. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport. This thread appeared to be similar to that at first. I thought it was simply a random idea by someone with money to burn on a wild custom, not a researched design by a board builder.

[Rob Stevens]

Where was this board promoted as race stock?

Ya... Fair enough.
Not a bad idea, though, to have an endorsment from a rider who is known to be able to kill it in both a race course and outside one.

To reduce the value of a $2000 board by half, for half a review might be seen by the manufacturer as not the best use of resources.



As a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want. The mistakes I see most freecarvers make are the same ones I see racers make.


Phil makes the point that the needs of both are very similar. I want to add to that by saying that this is only true when you have a freecarver who really pushes his or herself. Many freecarvers seek only a pure carve and will not venture onto terrain that forces them to slide. The racer will use whatever is required to get them down the fastest. By virtue of this, the racer is more predisposed to have an ability to do it all.
When we do CASI Level 4 alpine riding, the candidates who tend to have the most success are the racers and the riders who ride everything on their alpine setups. There are candidates who show up with great skills on groom and ice, but not on the overly steep or rough. This is probably because it's not as fun for them there, so they don't make it a part of their daily riding experience.

[shawndoggy]

As a completely neutral thread observer, I've really enjoyed this debate. While Jack's tone hasn't necessarily been the most objective, as a cyclist, I can totally see his point. There, as here, there are custom framebuilders who have lines months and sometimes years long. The frames are very expensive and their riders are their strongest proponents. But it's hard to trust the objectivity of someone who paid $2-5K on a bike frame that frequently resembles something that could be had for half the price (or less).

As with the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes, there is some truth to the notion that people who pay a premium for a product (any product) will sing its praises regardless of the merits. I for one wouldn't mind seeing a non-owner opinion and I also hope that I'm not accused of "just not getting it" because I agree that an independent evaluation of a novel design is reasonable.

[philfell]

Again I see racers everyday and I see randoms freecarving often. Trust me the differance in what the two need are not as different as what many on this site try to make it out to be.

Personally I have not ridden a full rocker race board. I have seen a few of them and have seem athletes ride them. I have ridden full rocker freestyle boards and could instantly feel how it could benefit alpine board design. NOT is all conditions/hills. But in some cases I feel it could be a big improvement.

Here is why I feel it would be good on steep hills with firm snow. First of all the board is already partially bent, so you don't have to put much pressure on the board to get it to carve the turn size you will need in order to keep your speed in check. Second if you end the turn a little off balance or twisted the board is not going to want to launch you (which is very common in SL racing, know among the race community as the Slalom Whipper). The board will stay perdicitable. Think about it a board you can ride icey steep hill and actually carve every turn, not one or two and then have to add a speed check in, plus the board will be forgiving. This is for freecarving there are other racing applications but I'll keep it freecarving here.

Also it would be great for beginners on all slopes. Put the board on edge and it carves instantly.

That being said I think it would be boring on flat hills where you want your board to push back some.

About four or so seasons ago a US ski team racer, Lauren Ross, tried rocker skies for SL racing. She was consistanly faster on the skies with rocker than her normal SL skies. There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there.

[tex1230]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Folks, get your comments in quick. I can hear a "Lock" being prepaired.

Why are you starting sh!t that isn't there, Bryan? Afraid of the criticism?
There is no reason or indication that the mods are going to lock this down. I find the debate interesting - and as a former racer turned mediocre freecarver, I can see both points of view. I can't imagine rocker being useful outside of deep powder, but with Phil's comments I may change my thinking there.

[Jack Michaud]

To reduce the value of a $2000 board by half, for half a review might be seen by the manufacturer as not the best use of resources.

Perhaps. In that case I'll send the board on to you or Phil or Bordy when I'm done. :D


Phil makes the point that the needs of both are very similar. I want to add to that by saying that this is only true when you have a freecarver who really pushes his or herself.

Who's got the ego now? ;) I'd like to believe I push myself. Sugarloaf is pretty darn steep.


By virtue of this, the racer is more predisposed to have an ability to do it all.

I 99.9% agree, and was not for a second saying anything to the contrary of this. I'll reserve that 0.1% for the few racers I've seen who knew how to go friggen fast, but weren't very good freecarvers. But they weren't world-level racers.

[Rob Stevens]

There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there.
Really?
You'd think that doing anything, short of putting a motor on them, would be reviewed. One persons unfair advantage is levelled once evryone else gets on the program. I can't remember, but what happened when shape skis were introduced to racing?

[philfell]

Yeah, I don't have my ski rule book handy, but there is a rule against twin tips for ski racing and a rocker ski falls under that. There are so many rules for ski equipment it's silly.

[Jack Michaud]

Again I see racers everyday and I see randoms freecarving often. Trust me the differance in what the two need are not as different as what many on this site try to make it out to be.

Again I disagree. I want/need stiff bindings. I've ridden Burtons after Bombers, and it was simply un-fun and frankly scary.


Personally I have not ridden a full rocker race board. ...

Here is why I feel it would be good on steep hills with firm snow. First of all the board is already partially bent, so you don't have to put much pressure on the board to get it to carve the turn size you will need in order to keep your speed in check.

Ok, so now that we're both theorizing without having used a rockered race board... conversely, you will need to make larger movements/shifts in order to pressure the nose or tail of the board, unless the board is built hella stiff.


Second if you end the turn a little off balance or twisted the board is not going to want to launch you (which is very common in SL racing, know among the race community as the Slalom Whipper). The board will stay perdicitable.

Sounds reasonable.


Think about it a board you can ride icey steep hill and actually carve every turn, not one or two and then have to add a speed check in

Bah. Use a shorter radius board then. My 158 will carve steep ice down the whole run. That is, when I don't have to stop and catch my breath!


Also it would be great for beginners on all slopes.

I've taught hundreds of beginners and I think rocker would be a nightmare. They already have a tough enough time getting spun around backwards.


Put the board on edge and it carves instantly.

A cambered board does this too.


About four or so seasons ago a US ski team racer, Lauren Ross, tried rocker skies for SL racing. She was consistanly faster on the skies with rocker than her normal SL skies. There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there.

Now that IS interesting.

[Rob Stevens]

Perhaps. In that case I'll send the board on to you or Phil or Bordy when I'm done. :D

I don't want it. I think it should be tested by the best in hardboots and I'm not that by any stretch. For a $1000 hit plus shipping, the builder would be right to hold out for this type of opinion. Got a bindingless board, Tink? Send it to me... I'll give it a go.




Who's got the ego now? ;) I'd like to believe I push myself. Sugarloaf is pretty darn steep.


I've done a little racing, nothing serious, but ruts are a major factor that we simply don't have to deal with in freecarving.


Not unless you force yourself to deal with them and that's my point.

[lowrider]

i put fort harry eggar as the man for the job:cool: if 250 k on skis works for him any board would be like carving putty

[tex1230]

i put fort harry eggar as the man for the job:cool: if 250 k on skis works for him any board would be like carving putty

huh? :confused::confused::confused:

[Mike T]

Gee, I don't know what made me think of this oldie but goodie:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17363

FWIW, I can't think of a single skill that I've learned at a race camp that didn't help me freecarve more competently and enjoyably.

[Jack Michaud]

As a completely neutral thread observer, I've really enjoyed this debate. While Jack's tone hasn't necessarily been the most objective, as a cyclist, I can totally see his point.

Thank you Shawn. I apologize to Pokkis and Tinkler for the tone. My tone is affected by the fact that every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. This really annoys me. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport. This thread appeared to be similar to that at first. I thought this rockered board was simply a random idea by someone with money to burn on a wild custom, not a researched design by a known board builder. Now I realize it is, so I apologize for the tone. I still don't think it will work well here, but I'm ready and willing to be proven otherwise.

[Donek]

Hey Donek, get off this site and get to work:):):)

Hey Bruce,

My production day ends at noon (starts at 6:00am). I started reading before I took my daughter out to shop for Christmas and just got back to it.

I've never really bought into the early rise in the shovel, but from reading between the lines I can see it might make core production a bit easier on the metals. You could thicken things up in the tip and tail and artificially soften the shovel by rockering it. The problem I had with the rockered board I rode (wasn't one of yours) was that, even though the board was damp, it went over everything when riding flat. I like a board that goes through that pile of soft snow.

[greenglow]

philfell has a point, try riding the board before you makes claims. Lauren Ross a former member of the US Ski team trained on rockered skis in a Slalom course and loved them. Then FIS band them, because they were too radical to be called a ski. Classic OLD MAN FIS. No progression with out change.

[Coloradoking]

i mean no sort of disrespect when saying this but:

being strictly a racer; and riding strictly race gear; i would have to say that the rocker would get a little unstable when moving into the fall line, in the time where your board is flat and moving into the next turn, you would have no nose/tail pressure on the snow; and should you hit anything interesting (ruts and ice tend to pop up alot :biggthump) you'd be a little screwed

[Pow]

I like a board that goes through that pile of soft snow.

Yeehaw!:biggthump

[philfell]

Just because the board has rocker does not mean that there is no pressure on the tip or tail while in the turn.

Talk to Fawcett about why he liked the burners so much in the transitions and you can use that logic on why a rockered board could provide some benefit.


The idea of riding ruts fast is to find the top of the rut put the board in it and let it happen. Why would a board that is pre-made into the shape of a carve turn be bad for this application? When you get to the end of the rut the board doesn't want to snap back and possibly throw you, it is simply there ready to roll over into the next rut.

Again not saying a rocker board is the end all, but I do see legit applications for both racing and freecarving.

[Bruce Varsava]

Hey Bruce,

My production day ends at noon (starts at 6:00am). I started reading before I took my daughter out to shop for Christmas and just got back to it.


If I quit by noon, my wife would lock the door on the house and leave me in the shop till I built her a new board:)

[Coloradoking]

Just because the board has rocker does not mean that there is no pressure on the tip or tail while in the turn.

im not saying that there is no nose/tail pressure in the turn; im just saying there is a period between turns where there will be no contact on the nose/tail of the board; and there will be a space after that when there is contact but no pressure; i know this is minute, but in a race you dont want to have to compromise anything

i dont mean to criticise rockered boards, until i ride one i cant really say anything as a fact; (at least a hardboot setup; i ride a lib tech skate banana in the park) but i feel like there is a lot of room for skepticism with this technology

[Bruce Varsava]

im not saying that there is no nose/tail pressure in the turn; im just saying there is a period between turns where there will be no contact on the nose/tail of the board; and there will be a space after that when there is contact but no pressure; i know this is minute, but in a race you dont want to have to compromise anything

i dont mean to criticise rockered boards, until i ride one i cant really say anything as a fact; (at least a hardboot setup; i ride a lib tech skate banana in the park) but i feel like there is a lot of room for skepticism with this technology

My feelings exactly!!
Lots of flat riding in freecarving too. Of course a good rider can ride anything but I don't foresee a good predictable ride without a bit of tip/tail pressure
BV

[JJFluff]

I don't want it. I think it should be tested by the best in hardboots.

Yeah sure, I'll ride it. Does it come with a manual? Ahhh, who reads directions.

I'll just do it like I've always done it.

Carve left, carve right, repeat.

[RDY_2_Carve]

Thanks for the great discussion guys. And thanks for the mods for not locking this thread or whatever...I never thought it was heading in a bad direction?!!? BOL is starting to feel like a true internet forum with technical discussions and differences of opinion.

What other forum in any industry has these "big names" having well thought out discussions and sharing their thoughts on technology and designs? We are so blessed here at BOL to have all of these resources at our disposal...and to think a simple trip to Aspen in Feb normally means meeting some of these people face to face and making some turns with world class riders and board builders. Unreal! What other sport has this luxury?

Just in this single thread we have:


Jack, an excellent technical freecarver whom I personally would love to have 1/2 of his skills. His articles have reached so many and helped shape the image of alpine snowboarding. Without Jack many of us would have been trial and error types looking like posers on a "race setup".
Bruce, the guy that built the best board I've ever owned or ridden. Just think this "guy" that we are all chatting with makes some of the best boards on the planet, and he custom built it "just for you". Simply amazing.
Sean, aka Mr. Donek, don't think for a second this guy is behind the power curve because he's just not getting into the metal scene. I still cannot wait to try the Razor and see if it can be the board to retire me from hardboots? Why do I have a feeling I'll be leaving SES 09 with a new Donek in my trunk?!?!
Phil, the Mr. Miyagi of alpine snowboard racing. Every time he posts I'm all ears and I love the fact that we can get 1st hand feedback on what's hot on the race scene RIGHT NOW.
Mr. Tinkie. The man that builds these amazing exotics that are pushing the envelope on what's considered do-able. How are we to evolve without these types of people in our industry?


Guys-don't think for a second us lurkers aren't taking notes and enjoying every word of this thread. I think it's great to see people disagree, dispute new ideas, and builders pushing the envelope. If we are not questioning, testing, and developing then we certainly aren't evolving now are we?

To think my Coiler 172 AM-T is 2-3 year old technology is just mind boggling because I can't imagine it getting much better than that! :smashfrea

One last note to Mr. Tinkie: I personaly DON'T want to demo your board. I don't think I have the self control to say NO when your board blows me away. The same goes for a Virus or any other high end "exotic" board. It was already hard enough justifying ~$900 USD on a custom Coiler for a guy that only rides 25-30 days a season! The WORST thing Tinkler can do is show up to SES with a handful of demo boards. Quite frankly I don't think you could keep up with the demand if you did. Anybody remember the wait time on a Coiler a few years ago?!?! :AR15firin

So keep doing what you're doing guys...I'm going to keep reaping the benefits as I carve left, carve right, and repeat (as Mr. JJFluff so eloquently put it).

P.S. You should have seen the faces @ Taos this past Sunday when I was railing in HB's on a Lib Magne-Traction on THE BUNNY SLOPE! :)

[Jack Michaud]

Thanks RDY_2_Carve. One correction though, Donek released their metal board to the public this year, and they have been developing and testing it for many years. I have a lot of confidence in Donek, I absolutely loved the 2 I owned, and I think their metal boards will be real contenders.

[Donek]

If I quit by noon, my wife would lock the door on the house and leave me in the shop till I built her a new board:)

I need the rest of the day to talk with customers, take orders, program the cnc, print and manipulate custom graphics, and of course play hide and seek with my daughter.

[GeoffV]

I've been following this thread (like many others) and it has been interesting to see all the responses, its great to see Sean, Bruce and Mike following this thread and posting. The one thing I have not been able gather from all the responses is how a "rockered " board is suppose to function for free carving.

This question is directed at Mike Tinkler can you please clarify a lot of questions around Pokkis board design and how one would expect this board to function and work on snow. What are the advantages to having a rocker design versus traditional boards with camber?

[b0ardski]

This thread is a techeads dream:biggthump

[Bruce Varsava]

I've been following this thread (like many others) and it has been interesting to see all the responses, its great to see Sean, Bruce and Mike following this thread and posting. The one thing I have not been able gather from all the responses is how a "rockered " board is suppose to function for free carving.

This question is directed at Mike Tinkler can you please clarify a lot of questions around Pokkis board design and how one would expect this board to function and work on snow. What are the advantages to having a rocker design versus traditional boards with camber?

That same point occurred to me. We all are describing what we want or think it can or can't do but what does the builder or rep say its supposed to do?
Yknow as it seems like there are no demos, I could whip up a quick proto without all the fancy stuff just for interests sake. Who wants to give up their production spot?:)

[Bruce Varsava]

I need the rest of the day to talk with customers, take orders, program the cnc, print and manipulate custom graphics, and of course play hide and seek with my daughter.
Whew, I thought you were just fooling around after noontime and was starting to wonder why my days are double and sometimes more than that in hours:freak3: Oh well I rememeber fondly the days of kiteboarding and golfing and thinking winter will never come

[tex1230]

That same point occurred to me. We all are describing what we want or think it can or can't do but what does the builder or rep say its supposed to do?
Yknow as it seems like there are no demos, I could whip up a quick proto without all the fancy stuff just for interests sake. Who wants to give up their production spot?:)

I'm sure Shred wouldn't mind if you kicked the X23 (or whatever he's on at this point) back a couple of months :D


Seriously, though...if any of you can't get your hands on one of these exotics and you are still comfortable on two planks, go to your local ski shop and demo a pair of reverse camber skis. I can't say for sure the performance will be identical, but I can say that based on my experience on the old rockered boards and the modern rockered skis (and the reverse/reverse - rocker and negative sidecut) I have no interest in trying to ride a rockered board (which has half the edge contact of skis to start with) at any speed on hardpack. They kick a$$ in powder, and that is where they belong.

I also wonder why Bryan and Tinkler so vocally attacked Jack when they had no response to Kildy's callout here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22643&highlight=kildy+flex

[b0ardski]

How about a schtubby with rockered powder tips???
A foot of snow overnight has got me going.

[Bruce Varsava]

I'm sure Shred wouldn't mind if you kicked the X23 (or whatever he's on at this point) back a couple of months :D
X23 has hi camber nose and reverse camber tail. Production date due Dec 2047:lol:

[Bruce Varsava]

How about a schtubby with rockered powder tips???
The Schtub and AM are extremely similar in design and materials. I am in the process of setting up my press to do twin tip stuff at which time I can do all that easily as it was only originally built for shorter alpine tails.

Check out this Titanal twin carve model 165 x 23.5 x 13.2m 151 effective. Tested and worked great but I didn't have the skill nor balls to ride it backwards. Also too lazy to rotate the bindings and ride it forwards going backwards:) By hand flexing it I am sure the tweaks I made for reverse initiation will work fine. This is the model I tested which has additional tail decamber and it indicated to me that it was a bit tail happy compared to a more fully cambered model. Not so much that after a run or two, it felt normal. Difference was about 2mm so it is slightly noticeable even at that small increment.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3720/twincarve3io1.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=twincarve3io1.jpg)

[b0ardski]

As a switch carver this is exciting to me. I want to carve hard switch and launch a 180 off the side of the groomer into the pow/trees.

[Bruce Varsava]

As a switch carver this is exciting to me. I want to carve hard switch and launch a 180 off the side of the groomer into the pow/trees.
Have to wait and see how the owner likes it but I am sure it will do just fine!
I also changed the materials a bit to get a bit more liveliness without any noticeable ill effects on ice, That was also a success! The reason is the metal boards do not ollie very well so just trying to get a bit more of the ever popular "pop" into its characteristics as you would need it to be bouncing back and forth from regular to switch. For me it was a pain in the ass to work on as I often did not know which end was the front:)
The nose was 2 cm longer than the tail but as you can see had exactly the same shape
BV

[b0ardski]

I'm saving my pennies for an X/X shtubby.:1luvu:

[GeoffV]

I'm saving my pennies for an X/X schtubby.:1luvu:


This is a prototype x/x Schtubby:eek:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.asylum.com/media/2008/12/gassnowboard_uncrate_20081201_240.jpg
If you aren't feeling daring enough to ride down the mountain on a racy Burton Playboy snowboard, there's another way to piss off everyone around you: a gas-powered snowboard.

For a mere $2,000, this motorized shredder will send you down the mountain with 6.5 hp as long as you weigh less than 250 lbs. With a 3/4 gallon gas tank, it provides at least two hours of fun going for "wide, graceful turns or aggressive

[tex1230]

This is a prototype x/x Schtubby:eek:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.asylum.com/media/2008/12/gassnowboard_uncrate_20081201_240.jpg
If you aren't feeling daring enough to ride down the mountain on a racy Burton Playboy snowboard, there's another way to piss off everyone around you: a gas-powered snowboard.

For a mere $2,000, this motorized shredder will send you down the mountain with 6.5 hp as long as you weigh less than 250 lbs. With a 3/4 gallon gas tank, it provides at least two hours of fun going for "wide, graceful turns or aggressive

I be with some work that thing could be fun...like maybe strap your little triple to it ;)

[MUD]

I also wonder why Bryan and Tinkler so vocally attacked Jack when they had no response to Kildy's callout here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22643&highlight=kildy+flex

Ya ever have a post that said something negative about Virus? The loyal viri come out in force. I think this is Bryan's case. He believes in MT and speaks as such.

Jack personally attacked MT's integrity. Kildy was rather nice about it. MT would have best served himself letting others argue for him, but you can only take so much.

Trying to defend yourself on the internet is impossible. There are too many self proclaimed experts and know-it-alls to ever stop once you start.....

You stated in your rip on me that you are an ex-Look rider (or at least paid to ride Looks), how do I know this to be true? I told you I own a trick stick and a kick, how do you know this too be true...... The internet is a world in and of itself. We should embrace having people on it like Mike, Bruce and Sean. instead, we attack them when they think outside the (our) box............

:lurk:

[tex1230]

you don't know if it's true...
doesn't matter...

My question was that these guys get all up in arms about someone questioning the thinking behind a design, but say absolutely nothing when one of the most respected snowboard racers ever comes out and basically accuses one of them of ripping off his design. Is this a case of "fight the battles you think you can win" ??

In other news, even though I am sick as a dog and stuck at home, We are supposed to have a foot of snow tomorrow so I'm taking the trick stick out and shredding the hill next to my house! (it's about 30 feet vertical...Gnarly!)

[Rob Stevens]

I'm taking the trick stick out and shredding the hill next to my house! (it's about 30 feet vertical...Gnarly!)

Take your bindings off.

[MUD]

you don't know if it's true...
doesn't matter...

My question was that these guys get all up in arms about someone questioning the thinking behind a design, but say absolutely nothing when one of the most respected snowboard racers ever comes out and basically accuses one of them of ripping off his design. Is this a case of "fight the battles you think you can win" ??

In other news, even though I am sick as a dog and stuck at home, We are supposed to have a foot of snow tomorrow so I'm taking the trick stick out and shredding the hill next to my house! (it's about 30 feet vertical...Gnarly!)

Good points. I see what you mean.......

I wish we would even get 12 inches of snow in one storm...... If it wasn't for manmade, we would have a hard time getting out at all.

We used to ride local golf courses before the areas allowed us..... It was the only place you could ride with a 6 inch base that didn't have rocks.:freak3:

[tex1230]

Take your bindings off.

I might try that but I have too put in some nails for traction or something

[MUD]

I might try that but I have too put in some nails for traction or something

We used surf board foam (I don't know if they call it a stomp pad). It worked for a little while until it iced up. As long as everything stays COLD, it works pretty good.

[Bruce Varsava]

A friend was asking if I make boards for kiting on snow and he sent me some info on what available. I do plan on doing them eventually but read this and one line in particular will make everyone smile and go home happy:)
His timing was perfect as I just got the message!


Rob Whittall - “We have developed a specialized board for the dedicated Snowkiter, designed specifically for the rigors of Snowkiting. This unique design incorporates many new features, which allow the board to ride and feel smoother on the snow. Delivering a feeling that is closer to Kitesurfing, less fatiguing than a traditional snowboard, and allowing the rider to enjoy the Snowkiting experience even more.”

The technology inside the Velocity –

* Posi + Rocker – The Velocity has a positive rocker, and this upward curve across the board helps with initiating turns at slow speeds and prevents edges from grabbing when riding flat.
* Posi + Side Cut – The positive and progressive side cut gives the Velocity its unique shape while providing plenty of contact between the edge and snow. The Posi + Side Cut allows the board to cut through and float over the snow efficiently while tracking very directly.
* True Flex – The Velocity has a constant flex pattern that extends from tip to tail allowing the deck to flex extensively, giving a natural and progressive carve to every turn. The constant flex increases the pop for improved freestyle, and acts like a shock absorber when traversing unfriendly snow conditions.
* Shovel Nose – The tips have been trimmed down in width to reduce the tendency for them to grab when on edge. These tips slice through the snow keeping the board above the snow and tracking directly, resulting in less vibration and a smoother ride, unlike a traditional snowboard that is constantly plowing and crashing thru the snow.
* Phat Ass – The Velocity has a 30cm wide Ass preventing toe and heel drag. It is also one of the reasons the Velocity feels so good in powder, due to the increased surface area the board rises to the surface easily to float on top, even at slower speeds.
* 164 cm Length – With the thinner nose and wider body, the Velocity rides like a smaller snowboard, despite its impressive length. At 164 cm, it offers the perfect size for eating up rough surfaces, cutting cleanly across ice, and staying on top of deep snow.
* Materials – The Velocity is a high quality snowboard built in the USA. Constructed with a sintered base and a solid wood core laminated to our specifications. Triax and Biax laminates mixed with resins designed to reduce weight while retaining maximum strength. High-grade stainless steel inserts and carbon fiber stringers round out the Velocity adding up to one of the most well built boards on the market.

[Rob Stevens]

I love when the thread drifts to NoBoarding...

If you live in the PNW and you're not trying this out, you're blowing it.

The cheapest traction available are old mountainbike tires, with the bead cut off. Just leave the tread and glue. Snow doesn't like to stick to it much, either. Surfboard foam can be expensive and it's not very durable. As Mud said, it holds snow, too because the foam is very porous.

Bruce! Got a picture of thet board?

If you want to blow the wad, buy the pad at...

[Bruce Varsava]

I love when the thread drifts to NoBoarding...


Bruce! Got a picture of thet board?

http://windzup.com/news_twisted.html
He sent me a link and heres the site but its not too informative as the pic is an artists conception . Interesting to see something different though. Looks like maybe good for learning or tricks. I've only done it once on snow despite getting 40 or 50 days usually per year on water

[Rob Stevens]

That thing looks just like the Lib Bannana Hammock T Rice brought out sledding last year.

He put a NoBoard pad on it and went very fast. That thing sure did like to sit on top.

Sorry... I will jack this thread no more.

[Jon Dahl]

That thing looks just like the Lib Bannana Hammock T Rice brought out sledding last year.


My thoughts exactly...when I saw the pics last month. The Hammock is kinda what started that famous August thread of mine about pow boards. Rocker most definatly has its place in pow sticks, and full rocker lets you do a lot with less. New Fish has nose rocker, Prior Spearhead has nose rocker, Sick Stick is basically no camber with a softer flex (too soft in my mind) etc. etc. Looks like nose rocker has a place on SL boards, too, aka the Kesslers. Makes sense too, after watching the JJ Anderson clip in the viddy section.

Oh, and Bruce, a twin tip carver? We must talk....Looks like a dream project I've been tossing around.

[yyzcanuck]

Who wants to give up their production spot?:)
You can always bump me. Andrea & I were out today at MSLM and I was riding ol' faithful. Still works fine.

[Bruce Varsava]

Oh, and Bruce, a twin tip carver? We must talk....Looks like a dream project I've been tossing around.
You dream it I build it!
With the new titanal board tooling I made sure it was super flexible to accommodate a lot of ideas easily. Working well so far and I have still a few accessories to add for even more options.

[Rob Stevens]

My thoughts exactly...when I saw the pics last month. The Hammock is kinda what started that famous August thread of mine about pow boards. Rocker most definatly has its place in pow sticks, and full rocker lets you do a lot with less. New Fish has nose rocker, Prior Spearhead has nose rocker, Sick Stick is basically no camber with a softer flex (too soft in my mind) etc. etc. Looks like nose rocker has a place on SL boards, too, aka the Kesslers. Makes sense too, after watching the JJ Anderson clip in the viddy section.


What makes that Hammock sit on top is that reverse sidecut. It sure doesn't want to reverse camber as much.

It sat really shallow and went fast... Scary fast w/o binders.

[Coloradoking]

umm please remind me how this turned into a conversation about noboards :confused:

[Jack Michaud]

As long as we're talking crazy....

Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first.

http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/1shifty.gif

[tex1230]

Innovation is an exciting thing to watch...

Maybe with the new material dynamics we are close to a board with not just
reverse camber but one with both, reverse sidecut and reverse camber...:eek:


Volant Spatula
Lotus DPS

and many others...
The skiers have been doing this for a few years. But, like I said, they are scary as hell if you hit ice or hardpack

[yyzcanuck]

As long as we're talking crazy....

Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first.

http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/1shifty.gif


Try HOT Blast... first.

Here's a LINK (http://www.hammersnowboards.com/Archives/site2006_2007/technical/constructions.php) to the tech.

[tinks]

This question is directed at Mike Tinkler can you please clarify a lot of questions around Pokkis board design and how one would expect this board to function and work on snow.

This has been very interesting to see unfold. I haven’t had this much sh!t thrown at me since I went to the Zoo and had Chimps lob hot ones, just kidding. I realize that my reluctance to jump into this all led to a lot of speculation. I did not start the thread and was not putting forth the concept as the end all, nor was Pokkis. He was just commenting on his experience riding the design. He is one of the only people here who can truly comment on the design having personally experienced it. My design came about with the desire for an easy, quick turning board. That’s the same reason I made my first “SLIT” tips and tails in 1997. They were single cut slits; something that had never been done on an alpine board before. I had been making and riding my slit tails for over two months before getting a hold of Fawcett in Tahoe. I told him how great I thought it worked, and that he should take a skill saw like I had to make one single cut up the center 15 inches long, dividing the tail in two. I then told him that when he returned I would mount Snow Stix on the splits. This led to Mark making the Sims Burner with the guy from Hexel Skis that had done small swallow tails on skis. As always, my designs incorporated Snow Stix technology to control each split independently with the ability to vary its camber foot print. The same is true for me in the rocker board. It was an opportunity to use my camber systems so I could vary the amount of rocker; something I have done in many other board sports. Adjustable rocker is nothing new to me. I thought that the ability to vary the length of the base contact foot print of the board might be interesting. I could increase or decrease the tip or tail pressure depending on the conditions; soft groom or boiler plate. I knew this would be important to broaden the range of this design. Short and variable base contact length and a long effective edge was my goal. From decades of working with camber foot prints I knew that as I increase camber using my systems, it would make the turn initiation slower and stiffer feeling. So going in the opposite direction would make it feel quick and easy. The worst rides of my life have been on highly cambered stiff boards on a steep narrow run. So my thinking was to go in the opposite direction. I just want to ride like everyone else with an easy quick turning board, and I will experiment with whatever concept I think of to make that happen.

You can’t compare my costs to a regular board with mono technology. My boards cost more because they involve three technologies: the base board (with extra t-nuts and internal side walls for the slit tails), the Snow Stix carbon plate (the binding mounted design), and carbon Snow Stix. That’s a lot of work. If builders start to do this type of board with mono construction and especially in metal, I can predict the outcome in which I will not reveal at this time. Snow Stix on this alpine version are very important.

[pokkis]

i've been on Mike's stix adjustable boards now for 3 seasons, and i'm still strong beliver for concept of adjustable board flex/behaviour.
Specially cause this adjustable is so easy to do, i do it mainly on lift, on T-bat if i'm alone or on chair or cabin. It just takes like 5-20 seconds to change board behaviour fully according your wish. And if i'm fully happy i just ride :rolleyes:
Rocketman is another issue.
It is concept by Mike, and when i heard about it, i just wanted to see how it works. So it is not my own silly wish based own my idea :eek:
just my believe that i want to test something existing and built by Mike.
And after riding it, to day still too little, many things i did not believe have now changed. So if possible dont judge thengs before you have tried them.
All boards in my fleet are available for test runs in OCC in March :biggthump just in case you will be aroud :ices_ange

[tinks]

I also wonder why Bryan and Tinkler so vocally attacked Jack when they had no response to Kildy's callout here:
http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22643&highlight=kildy+flex

To the guy that wondered why I did not respond to “Kildy flex” right away, it’s because it has taken over a month for me to calm down to respond to “Kildy flex.” If I had responded at the time, it would have been a cage fight; full MMA. Kildy and I have done this before.



MT would have best served himself letting others argue for him, but you can only take so much.

Trying to defend yourself on the internet is impossible. There are too many self proclaimed experts and know-it-alls to ever stop once you start.....:lurk:

As MUD said, one can only take so much, and defending one's self online is nearly impossible, but I feel it is necessary to give it a try. I will try really hard to only stick to the facts and not get personal. I need to start from the beginning. In 1993, Mike Kildivauld asked to come over to my house and get a set of carbon Snow Stix for his Burton asy Race board and talk about my adjustable camber concepts. Because he was a Burton team rider at the time and showed an unusual interest in my thoughts and concepts, I had him sign a confidential discloser agreement and he was given a copy. I talked freely about my concepts about externally downloading the tip and tail of boards and skis with various systems to create camber. He was shown everything in my shop and the original Snow Stix set-up Fawcett tested in 1991, which was a Snow Stix arm attached to a riser plate that went under the binding. We talked about all the things in my filed patent. Things like two arms mounted on a riser plate, and a one arm system that could be moved laterally to bias the left and right side of the board to create torsional flex control. He was shown urethane binding cants that I was custom making for the Cross M team. He was shown a lot of concepts. Then I went on to develop my systems and market them. Snow Stix went on to win 16 World Cups, and podium 32 times, and were used by some of the most elite racers in the world. The patent was sold to K2 in 1995. Then in 1997 Kildivauld showed up with 2 cambered Snow Stix arms attached at the tip and tail to a K2 EPB derby plate. The purpose as Kildy describes it is to download the tip and tail! Wow, I wonder where he got that idea!! He combined two patented designs and called it Kildy Flex. Both patents owned by K2; the Snow Stix patent and the Trimble EPB Derby patent. Some of you ex-skiers may remember K2’s Extra Power Booster riser ski plate. It had a fixed mounting point in the center and mounting points at the ends that had slots allowing it to slide toward the tip and tail when flexed. When I told the K2 patent lawyer what Kildivauld was doing, they were not too happy having two patents they owned being infringed by not just a racer, but now a company 24/7. All my Tinkler dual Snow Stix plates K2 had made for me were marked with patent members. If he thinks he has an issued patent on these two designs please show everyone. Never did I see his plate display a patent number. It’s kind of hard to get a patent on something that’s already patented. I had always told Kildivauld just cut my Snow Stix arms off that plate and you become someone else’s problem, but he never did. Even today he shows drawings of dual cambered Snow Stix arms and as he describes, their purpose is to download the tip and tail. Then he uses them on a split tail that runs all the way to the tip. Once again, I wonder where that idea came from?

If Mr. Kildvauld can’t find his copy of the discloser contract that lays out what concepts were discussed, I will gladly send him another copy.

[Rob Stevens]

To the guy that wondered why I did not respond to “Kildy flex” right away, it’s because it has taken over a month for me to calm down to respond to “Kildy flex.” If I had responded at the time, it would have been a cage fight; full MMA. Kildy and I have done this before.



As MUD said, one can only take so much, and defending one's self online is nearly impossible, but I feel it is necessary to give it a try. I will try really hard to only stick to the facts and not get personal. I need to start from the beginning. In 1993, Mike Kildivauld asked to come over to my house and get a set of carbon Snow Stix for his Burton asy Race board and talk about my adjustable camber concepts. Because he was a Burton team rider at the time and showed an unusual interest in my thoughts and concepts, I had him sign a confidential discloser agreement and he was given a copy. I talked freely about my concepts about externally downloading the tip and tail of boards and skis with various systems to create camber. He was shown everything in my shop and the original Snow Stix set-up Fawcett tested in 1991, which was a Snow Stix arm attached to a riser plate that went under the binding. We talked about all the things in my filed patent. Things like two arms mounted on a riser plate, and a one arm system that could be moved laterally to bias the left and right side of the board to create torsional flex control. He was shown urethane binding cants that I was custom making for the Cross M team. He was shown a lot of concepts. Then I went on to develop my systems and market them. Snow Stix went on to win 16 World Cups, and podium 32 times, and were used by some of the most elite racers in the world. The patent was sold to K2 in 1995. Then in 1997 Kildivauld showed up with 2 cambered Snow Stix arms attached at the tip and tail to a K2 EPB derby plate. The purpose as Kildy describes it is to download the tip and tail! Wow, I wonder where he got that idea!! He combined two patented designs and called it Kildy Flex. Both patents owned by K2; the Snow Stix patent and the Trimble EPB Derby patent. Some of you ex-skiers may remember K2’s Extra Power Booster riser ski plate. It had a fixed mounting point in the center and mounting points at the ends that had slots allowing it to slide toward the tip and tail when flexed. When I told the K2 patent lawyer what Kildivauld was doing, they were not too happy having two patents they owned being infringed by not just a racer, but now a company 24/7. All my Tinkler dual Snow Stix plates K2 had made for me were marked with patent members. If he thinks he has an issued patent on these two designs please show everyone. Never did I see his plate display a patent number. It’s kind of hard to get a patent on something that’s already patented. I had always told Kildivauld just cut my Snow Stix arms off that plate and you become someone else’s problem, but he never did. Even today he shows drawings of dual cambered Snow Stix arms and as he describes, their purpose is to download the tip and tail. Then he uses them on a split tail that runs all the way to the tip. Once again, I wonder where that idea came from?

If Mr. Kildvauld can’t find his copy of the discloser contract that lays out what concepts were discussed, I will gladly send him another copy.

Ooohhhh, SNAP!

MT. Did you get my PM?

[MUD]

Snow Stix patent, in case anyone is curious......

I know I was.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ET4eAAAAEBAJ&dq=mike+tinkler

#5284357

[Coloradoking]

Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first.

i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! :eek:

by the way; i know you're joking.

[inkaholic]

Ck, Like YYZ said.


Try HOT Blast... first.

I still love riding Hot Blasts. I will need to try out D.T.'s and Big Mario's new to them blasts.

Ink

[yyzcanuck]

i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! :eek:

by the way; i know you're joking.


Maybe go HERE (http://www.hammersnowboards.com/Archives/site2006_2007/technical/horizontal_woodcore.php) before you jump to conclusions.

[MUD]

As long as we're talking crazy....

Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first.

http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/1shifty.gif

The only hard part is finding the wood with consistent enough density the width and length of a snow board to give you the desired effect (homogenious-ness:D). Other than that, there is no reason you would not do it....

[Gecko]

i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! :eek:

by the way; i know you're joking.


joking or not you obviously know nothing about snowboard construction or it's history...

on topic to that G3 H-lam/V-lam board, very interesting, it would be very nice for pow and freeriding, not sure about alpine but who knows...some similar things have been done with DH Skateboards recently by both small custom builders (airotica) and more commercial ones like Comet, Rayne and even Watson Laminates has been playing with something like that for Earthwing

[Bruce Varsava]

If builders start to do this type of board with mono construction and especially in metal, I can predict the outcome in which I will not reveal at this time. Snow Stix on this alpine version are very important.
I think a lot of riders here have some idea of what the outcome might be. The point which I am somewhat wondering about is when on the hill riding with the stix set in a certain tension how can the effect be much different than a board with internal construction to get that tension into those areas? Carbon laminates, core adjustments etc. The stix will allow adjustment of course which would make the board feel different in different conditions which to some is a desirable but when set, if a mono board had the internals to somewhat duplicate that would it really be that different?
My prediction is that it would be not that different but you would only have one setting so you would try to set it to optimum for the conditions you wanted to ride in . That would be pretty limiting so I can't see it being of value to anyone. With the stix it is of course a different story. My experience would say no tension and the ride would be " skatey" and very easy to roll into turns. With the sticks tensioned, a somewhat more regular tracking ride but as you know there are a ton of variables in each board so that would affect how the turning felt depending on board stiffness etc. How much energy coming out of a turn is hard to predict but could easily be felt with a test ride as again plenty of variables.
Just some honest questions.
Bruce

[tex1230]

BTW did I mention that I saw a Tinkler freestyle at Stratton the other day? didn't know the kid, but he was a hell of a rider.

Tink, My earlier question was more to point out the absurdity of you and Bryan attacking Jack for asking legitimate questions and stating reasonable opinions while ignoring a rather blatant callout. Thanks for confirming that one of you can communicate without insinuating some conspiracy.

[b0ardski]

Has any one put adjustable tension arm on skis, I think Solomon was the the 1st to produce skis wth them but they were not adjustable.

I shoud have bought some snow stix when I first saw them in the early 90s.

[GeoffV]

Tinks thanks for responding, this thread has become very interesting to follow
:lurk:

[Shred Gruumer]

This post has me hooked!!

Its like watching LOST... Im addicted now..

Whats in store? please keep going.. Can't wait for the next episode!!;):lurk:

[philfell]

BTW did I mention that I saw a Tinkler freestyle at Stratton the other day? didn't know the kid, but he was a hell of a rider.

Tink, My earlier question was more to point out the absurdity of you and Bryan attacking Jack for asking legitimate questions and stating reasonable opinions while ignoring a rather blatant callout. Thanks for confirming that one of you can communicate without insinuating some conspiracy.


The kid was probably Mike Plachard, 14 year old ripper. He's a pretty darn good hardbooter as well.

[KingCrimson]

joking or not you obviously know nothing about snowboard construction or it's history...

on topic to that G3 H-lam/V-lam board, very interesting, it would be very nice for pow and freeriding, not sure about alpine but who knows...some similar things have been done with DH Skateboards recently by both small custom builders (airotica) and more commercial ones like Comet, Rayne and even Watson Laminates has been playing with something like that for Earthwing

I've been messing around bagging and clamping different laminations for skate decks. They have all broken so far. :o

What I'm trying after "Holiday" (:rolleyes:) break you might quite like. I'd actually quite like it if you tried to build one too if I figured out a way to make it work. I bet yours wouldn't break since you actually know what you're doing.

You would start out by v-lamming a "ply" and then running it through a table saw to make a rough shape at 45*. Repeat, and end up with two plies, with the lams going 90* to each other. Finish off with another v-lam going longitudinally, You'd probably have to make this pretty small, specifically SL skate small, since the material waste would be of garguntuan proportions. I think the camber response would be extremely fun.


Thanks for confirming that one of you can communicate without insinuating some conspiracy.

I don't care who you are, that's damn funny!

Sorry..back on topic..

[Gecko]

I have a plan for my next skateboard I need to have a bag press to do it...I plan to Vlam a beam of BB ply's for core of speedboard and then sandwich it between glass to allow a much lighter standing deck and still have both lateral and longitudinal stiffness...kinda the opposite of this idea.
My first couple of boards were Hlam construction the only problem I had with it was that edge hold was to related to stiffness and it wasn't very torsionally stable but they were plenty durable

[kildy]

you know I had writen this whole gay thing getting all pissed and what ever, but than I just relized I am getting pissed at an old bumb living in the Dalles in a garage so why dont you take those awsome snowsticks and sell the hell out of them but do me a favor mount them in the center of your board and push on the tip like you where doing when Mark begged me to help your dumb idea out and no you lied when you injected they where mounted under binding you are a joke the snowsticks are a joke and why did you split your kildy flex plate edge to edge oh ya that was how I told you to avoid my patent so you did I laughed and you cost Mark Fawsett a gold metal in the first ever snowboard winte olympics oww he won the first run by over 3 seconds all he had to do was stand up and he would have won oooooh lets see 2 -4 million dollars why again oh ya you split the kildy flex from edge to edge to avoid my patent you my friend are a joke

[scubaree]

Here few comments about my new Tinkler toy :1luvu:
http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rocketman1.jpg
Length 180cm, waist 23cm, radius 11-13m.
Full rocker
http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rocketnose.jpg http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/rockettail.jpg
I've been now running this board on slushy afternoon slope, medium soft groom and medium hard wavy groomed slope. And it is working all of them so nicely. Been riding mainly stix full loose or only slightly tightened, just to get used to rockers.
I can get board full flat with stix if i turn all of them fully tight.
Have not yet change to ride it on full hard surface but i'm sure that this will come later this season.
This board really rocks :ices_ange
Cant wait to get it also on real deeper snow too.
Will give updates later this season about when more miles on different surfaces.
Oh-yeah, if someone wonders, yes this board is built for slopes, so this is not pow-board :D

And can not wait to get my hands on my new BlackMamba built by another genious board wizard, more story about that later :eplus2:

Pokkis
I just wanted to say I like your board. I have seen many Tinkler boards and am excited to try them. I just started out so I'm working my way up.

[MUD]

Kildy, I don't think you meant to have me be the recipient of this one...... Should have been tinks I believe.

Since we are on the topic of patents, what is the number of yours???? I would love to read it (I'm kind of a design geek for boards).

[KingCrimson]

Hahah, the "Or my name is Mud" sort of reference is just killing you, MUD!

[svr]

[QUOTE=Jack Michaud;220401]As long as we're talking crazy....


Sorry Jack...Crazy maybe for the East Coast...not for Colorado
Good friend loves his pontoons on the groomed as well...
Having watched and participated in Surfboard design for over 50 years I have
no doubts that Snowboard design has a few options left.

Here is another Idea I had for a Powder board you can call Crazy if you want!

Softbootsailor, here are two japanese boards that are going with a design similar to what you you posted, although not quite as extreme. they are the moss snowstick 58 pt and the vectorglide genius and both have rockered noses.

cheers,
sandy

[Pow]

Maybe go HERE (http://www.hammersnowboards.com/Archives/site2006_2007/technical/horizontal_woodcore.php) before you jump to conclusions.

I read that and thought hot/hammer too. how are they doing, anyway? I havnt heard much news of them lately.

[BlueB]

Yup, elliminate the sidecut, so the thing can totally suck when you are back on groomed ;) Who needs extreme pintail while you could have a swally? Oh ya, so it can suck even more back on groom. :D

Ok, now serious, you like porpoising in the pow, right? How you would even sink it with so much rocker and pintail? I would think it will want to stay afloat all the time.

[Coloradoking]

joking or not you obviously know nothing about snowboard construction or it's history...

on topic to that G3 H-lam/V-lam board, very interesting, it would be very nice for pow and freeriding, not sure about alpine but who knows...some similar things have been done with DH Skateboards recently by both small custom builders (airotica) and more commercial ones like Comet, Rayne and even Watson Laminates has been playing with something like that for Earthwing

please dont insult my intelligence; i've been working with boards long enough (i know probably nowhere close to you "gods" of boards) to know that this works; i ride a rayne downhill board and i know that this works. i know its hard to detect sarcasm online; however before you know the ACTUAL intent of someone's statements don't start insulting them.

[Gecko]

as someone who grew up on Flatlam snowboards I take it personally when people mock them....sorry

[Coloradoking]

its not a problem, please just try and find out what some one is saying before you openly insult them

[Bordy]

A friend was asking if I make boards for kiting on snow and he sent me some info on what available. I do plan on doing them eventually but read this and one line in particular will make everyone smile and go home happy:)
His timing was perfect as I just got the message!


Rob Whittall - “We have developed a specialized board for the dedicated Snowkiter, designed specifically for the rigors of Snowkiting. This unique design incorporates many new features, which allow the board to ride and feel smoother on the snow. Delivering a feeling that is closer to Kitesurfing, less fatiguing than a traditional snowboard, and allowing the rider to enjoy the Snowkiting experience even more.”

The technology inside the Velocity –

* Posi + Rocker – The Velocity has a positive rocker, and this upward curve across the board helps with initiating turns at slow speeds and prevents edges from grabbing when riding flat.
* Posi + Side Cut – The positive and progressive side cut gives the Velocity its unique shape while providing plenty of contact between the edge and snow. The Posi + Side Cut allows the board to cut through and float over the snow efficiently while tracking very directly.
* True Flex – The Velocity has a constant flex pattern that extends from tip to tail allowing the deck to flex extensively, giving a natural and progressive carve to every turn. The constant flex increases the pop for improved freestyle, and acts like a shock absorber when traversing unfriendly snow conditions.
* Shovel Nose – The tips have been trimmed down in width to reduce the tendency for them to grab when on edge. These tips slice through the snow keeping the board above the snow and tracking directly, resulting in less vibration and a smoother ride, unlike a traditional snowboard that is constantly plowing and crashing thru the snow.
* Phat Ass – The Velocity has a 30cm wide Ass preventing toe and heel drag. It is also one of the reasons the Velocity feels so good in powder, due to the increased surface area the board rises to the surface easily to float on top, even at slower speeds.
* 164 cm Length – With the thinner nose and wider body, the Velocity rides like a smaller snowboard, despite its impressive length. At 164 cm, it offers the perfect size for eating up rough surfaces, cutting cleanly across ice, and staying on top of deep snow.
* Materials – The Velocity is a high quality snowboard built in the USA. Constructed with a sintered base and a solid wood core laminated to our specifications. Triax and Biax laminates mixed with resins designed to reduce weight while retaining maximum strength. High-grade stainless steel inserts and carbon fiber stringers round out the Velocity adding up to one of the most well built boards on the market.

He He He... that was me and Robby..........Best snow kiteboard ever.....Robby is my boss at Ozone....

Rocker rules. this thread is so funny.......

Again rocker rules...... Of course just my opinion....

he he....

http://www.driftsnowkitemag.com/drift/2008/11/07/the-season-at-skyline-has-started/

[Gecko]

its not a problem, please just try and find out what some one is saying before you openly insult them

you make an openly insulting comment like


i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! :eek:

about flatlam snowboards and expect someone who both road and made them not to feel that you are either speaking from ignorance or just being a jerk?

[KingCrimson]

its not a problem, please just try and find out what some one is saying before you openly insult them

He didn't openly insult you at all. It was a pretty damn ignorant comment in my mind. Also, not trying to be a dickhead, (obviously going to come across as one, no two ways about it) but it sounds pretty dickhead-ish to be telling Gecko what he should and should not be doing in regards to respect. He's by far one of the most patient members on here.

Edit: Example above..

Bordy- This is a pretty good thread, and an opinion from you other than "Rocker rules" would be awesome. Do it.

[tufty]

He didn't openly insult you at all. It was a pretty damn ignorant comment in my mind. Also, not trying to be a dickhead, (obviously going to come across as one, no two ways about it) but it sounds pretty dickhead-ish to be telling Gecko what he should and should not be doing in regards to respect. He's by far one of the most patient members on here.

Edit: Example above..

Bordy- This is a pretty good thread, and an opinion from you other than "Rocker rules" would be awesome. Do it.

a: Rocker ROOLZ!!!
b: Rocker SUXX0RZ!!!
c: I don't give a fsck, but it's funny to watch the arguments

pokkis: Beautiful board. Enjoy.
tinks: Any chance of a reduction in price to "lifty" wage levels? (I know, I know, but worth a shot :)

[Bruce Varsava]

He He He... that was me and Robby..........Best snow kiteboard ever.....Robby is my boss at Ozone....

Rocker rules. this thread is so funny.......

Again rocker rules...... Of course just my opinion....

he he....

http://www.driftsnowkitemag.com/drift/2008/11/07/the-season-at-skyline-has-started/
Bordy
The picture of the board looks quite interesting. I have been avoiding snowkiting despite living 1 minute from a big lake as I really didn't like riding the high sidecut twins and just haven't had time to build anything different. Rocker and straight or reverse sidecut, damn, sounds just like the board I use for water! Come to think of it, when you look at what this entire thread is about and compare to what we use in water for kiting, it provides an easily understandable perspective depending on the medium you are riding in/on. I wouldn't consider riding a cambered/sidecut board in the water although I think it has been done for a certain ride. For most applications I wouldn't think the rockered board would be to my liking for snow however certain conditions and ride it would certainly be a good idea. How does that thing turn on harder snow?
If you could just get rid of the highbacks next, I'm all over it!!
My idea was somewhat to build a jumbo snowskate, very much like those little skateboard things that have a mini ski underneath them. Just make it much bigger and have the platform wider than the actual board that touches the snow so you could just use footstraps as the leverage from being above and out would allow it. I was still thinking a board with camber and sidecut but with a 20 m or so on the heel and a 10m on toe, titanal of course:)
A guy up here builds these things called "Snowfer" and it utilizes the same leverage idea but for use with a windsurf sail.
This application might be a good place for the snowstix as the lakes/fields you ride on are real variable so the adjustability would be a benefit. I have built skis to 270 cm for the dudes who windsurf on ice and know they always seem to want something different for different conditions as on any one day it can really vary from ice to pow.
So someone please build me a board with the deck on top so I can use footstraps, straight heel edge with maybe a bit of sidecut on toe side and rocker/ camber adjustability similar to the Pokkis board.
I seriously think it would really be a decent ride:biggthump
I knew something positive would come of all this!
Titanal of course:1luvu:

[kildy]

not even sure how I did that pissed off maybe can't think.

The Patent Number is (I have no idea) did you see it, that is the best part of patents you have to find it, or get a lawyer to search sorry but that is the truth also 24/7 payed for it so I never really cared nor do I have that number but if I did I would be an idiot to tell anyone all I remember is my name is on it as inventor, Salamon Skis where interested in buying it they took a trip to see 24/7 but no deal was made, again no idea what happened there iether, I was snowboarding getting ready for the Olympics few other things on my mind ay...

[kildy]

Was this your podium shot of the silver medal at your very own Indycross Nastar Champs, you may want to consider a dentist.

The reply came in five seconds, I was actualy drawing up a new invention that I did not steel from someone else, so you actualy have to do alot of work to figure out.

[Shred Gruumer]

Boy.. The SES should be one heck of a warm and fuzzy family reunion!!

Hope it doesn't end up as the ECES Death Cage Match!!:boxing_sm

Don't mess with the Trailer!!

[Bordy]

Bordy
The picture of the board looks quite interesting. I have been avoiding snowkiting despite living 1 minute from a big lake as I really didn't like riding the high sidecut twins and just haven't had time to build anything different. Rocker and straight or reverse sidecut, damn, sounds just like the board I use for water! Come to think of it, when you look at what this entire thread is about and compare to what we use in water for kiting, it provides an easily understandable perspective depending on the medium you are riding in/on. I wouldn't consider riding a cambered/sidecut board in the water although I think it has been done for a certain ride. For most applications I wouldn't think the rockered board would be to my liking for snow however certain conditions and ride it would certainly be a good idea. How does that thing turn on harder snow?
If you could just get rid of the highbacks next, I'm all over it!!
My idea was somewhat to build a jumbo snowskate, very much like those little skateboard things that have a mini ski underneath them. Just make it much bigger and have the platform wider than the actual board that touches the snow so you could just use footstraps as the leverage from being above and out would allow it. I was still thinking a board with camber and sidecut but with a 20 m or so on the heel and a 10m on toe, titanal of course:)
A guy up here builds these things called "Snowfer" and it utilizes the same leverage idea but for use with a windsurf sail.
This application might be a good place for the snowstix as the lakes/fields you ride on are real variable so the adjustability would be a benefit. I have built skis to 270 cm for the dudes who windsurf on ice and know they always seem to want something different for different conditions as on any one day it can really vary from ice to pow.
So someone please build me a board with the deck on top so I can use footstraps, straight heel edge with maybe a bit of sidecut on toe side and rocker/ camber adjustability similar to the Pokkis board.
I seriously think it would really be a decent ride:biggthump
I knew something positive would come of all this!
Titanal of course:1luvu:

The twisted board is steller on almost all snow conditions, how ever its weakest surface is hard lake frozen firm ice. It is however the revease side cut that holds back its edge grip not the rocker. Just last weekend I was doing tow in stuff on it behind a snowmobile on packed roads, and I have ridden it at the resort for kicks.

I wish for sure it was made out of titanal, I wish my water board was titanal also!!!! Ya know a few years back i build a light wind water board with camber and sidecut (about 20m) and it ripped, I handed it off to a fellow kiter and they are stiill loving it in the lighter winds.

I really like the snow skate two piece idea, for the frozen lakes I think that is the call, when you have to bite into the ice, making more power via leverage. I think the board really needs two sections of radius however, with the center of each arc under the heel of the foot since we are really just riding the back foot and half of the board while making resistance aganst the kite. The toe side can still be one arc and a tighter radius would be a huge advantage. When I rode for best their board had a 20M ish radius I rode it for a year and always wished it had a smaller toe side, and the next year I got a banana hamock from Travis, then I left Best and brought the hamock idea and concept with me to my new sponsor.( Part of the reason I left Best is they wanted to just copy the hamock and put there name on it, while Twisted used the idea as a base and build a better board for kiting.....from it).

Living here in Ut the conditions are always freash, And I really only use ice on lakes as a "freeway" to get around from spot to spot, the current board works fine for traveling across ice but if it where to be ice spacific it would need to be different. I have a bunch of concept ideas for firmer snow but I only ride ice while traveling, at events where there is no other option I have asked lots of ice kiters and it seems to me they are more concerened about flex then shape, it seems having a nice soft board that tracks well with a large radius maybe even with a heel centered sidecut that would provide more pounds or pressure per inch and could be the answer. With snowkiting being so new there are hundreds of ways to improve the board tech since it is still based on gravity sliding sports, there are currently only about three boards made to snowkite with and only the twisted is a progression item, with tuned flex and width adjustments, but it is pretty crappy inside as cost was the biggest issue and at $450us I think we did a good job trying to put a working prodect out to the kiting comunnity that trumps all others for 90% of the conditions. Other snowkite boards are just snowboard copys with some kiters name and flex pattern to make them different...the response to the twisted board has been very positive!


As always Bruce I am happy to share any ideas I have, you know how I am... I still have about a thousand stuffed in my head.....


BB

Oh yea and for the rest of the posters Why not rocker? Think of all the energy you as a rider save by not having to provide the power to de-camper a board that is bent in the wrong direction you want it to bend in, also if you need to use energy to bend the board that means it is trying to bend back against the turn, That doesn't mean there is less pressure being distrubited to the tip and tail, the board is already a big lever there has to be energy going to the tip and tail, the tip diggs the trench and the goal is to get the tail to follow, you don't need camber to make that happen, Camber just adds more energy to bounce around and make the board feel crappy.

And Jack, you know i love what ya do for BOL but... you really need to stop placing "racers' and "freecarvers" in seprate catagorys, all you are doing is creating unreal comparisions about the same sport. Racers are Freecarvers who have perfected the art of board riding. Come to terms with that and the sport should grow.... thats part of the reason this forum hinders the sport also.....but for some reason some posters have enough clout to keep the board beleiving "their Ideas about alpine riding" Not the "current state of alpine riding". Most of the reason I stopped posting here was becuase I had to field insults and ideas from airchair riders who base their Ideas on info read or imagined, not experanced.


None of the GS or PGS or SL race boards I have ever ridden have been out proformed or out free ridden by a "freecarve" stick and every freecarve board I have ever ridden needed improvment. Lots of improvment.......

Well in till I had enough and shaped some real free ride shapes based on the current level of the sport and board building, and not what I thought was good about my factory prime from 95... hence my new shape the Bsquared from Prior... Its a alpine snowboard.. not a race board or a freeride board, its all the tech of a race board with manners for everyone to enjoy!!!! Oh yea and it of course goes backwards...

Rocker, magnatraction, tip camber profile, Metal, usable tails, riser plates and such. these are all "new ideas" in alpine riding get on board or stay on your old board.... I don't care, your the rider its your time on the hill spend it how you want!!1:biggthump

[Steve Prokopiw]

with your opinion on the rockered board concept.My intuition tells me that there is merit to the possible energy saving benefit;afterall,wouldn't centripedal force be partly responsible for edge pressure and hold anyway? And the characteristics of the board such as snap and torsional and longitudinal flexibility should be able to be determined by how it is constructed and with what materials etc.Just like any other custom.

BTW, the last paragraph of your post sums it all up for me.

[willywhit]

Bordy, cool site
http://www.driftsnowkitemag.com/drift/category/video/
good to see ya back in the mix

[Bruce Varsava]

BB

Oh yea and for the rest of the posters Why not rocker? Think of all the energy you as a rider save by not having to provide the power to de-camper a board that is bent in the wrong direction you want it to bend in, also if you need to use energy to bend the board that means it is trying to bend back against the turn, That doesn't mean there is less pressure being distrubited to the tip and tail, the board is already a big lever there has to be energy going to the tip and tail, the tip diggs the trench and the goal is to get the tail to follow, you don't need camber to make that happen, Camber just adds more energy to bounce around and make the board feel crappy.

Billy Billy Billy, You know I love you too but must put in my 2 cents here.
The above statement makes it sound like you are riding on edge all the time. last time I went out I had to ride flat on plenty of occasions so tip/tail pressure was nice to have to make that easier and safer on the type of snow we experience the majority of time. . Its a balance of not having too much but enough to make the board perform in all situations. I have been and always will be an advocate of lower camber boards. It gives a nice balance. If you want any decent rebound energy from a board with less or no camber, you need to make it stiffer and by doing so you decrease the ability to bend it in a wider range which will limit turning capabilities. Been there, done that with lower camber.


And Jack, you know i love what ya do for BOL but... you really need to stop placing "racers' and "freecarvers" in seprate catagorys, all you are doing is creating unreal comparisions about the same sport. Racers are Freecarvers who have perfected the art of board riding. Come to terms with that and the sport should grow.... thats part of the reason this forum hinders the sport also.....but for some reason some posters have enough clout to keep the board beleiving "their Ideas about alpine riding" Not the "current state of alpine riding". Most of the reason I stopped posting here was becuase I had to field insults and ideas from airchair riders who base their Ideas on info read or imagined, not experanced.

Alpine riding is different for everyone. I have seen racers who cannot even carve a turn but got the biggest cheers from many more experienced racers as they came across the finish as just getting through the course was a big success for them . You cannot compare everyone to riders of your level who have the skills to execute the "current level of alpine". Many need different designs built in to accommodate the fact they are not superhuman and maybe can only get out a handful of times per season.
Maybe it should read: "Top level racers are freecarvers who have perfected the art of riding a board around sticks quickly"

From my perspective the equipment a racer uses and a freecarver uses are becoming more and more different each year so eventually you would think that also considering them a different aspect of the sport would somewhat make sense


None of the GS or PGS or SL race boards I have ever ridden have been out proformed or out free ridden by a "freecarve" stick and every freecarve board I have ever ridden needed improvment. Lots of improvment......
Again, at your level you may find some of the boards I build , which many people have given great reviews on, too boring as you like more demanding stuff for your skills.


Well in till I had enough and shaped some real free ride shapes based on the current level of the sport and board building, and not what I thought was good about my factory prime from 95... hence my new shape the Bsquared from Prior... Its a alpine snowboard.. not a race board or a freeride board, its all the tech of a race board with manners for everyone to enjoy!!!! Oh yea and it of course goes backwards...

Ummmm, didn't I see a post somewhere by one of your team where it was stated about the Bsquared and I quote:

" Billy Bordy has designed a board and Prior has built it to his specs. We had a run done and believe it to be a nice version of the stubby, in which he also had a hand in laying out".

About 3 years ago I started using the "current level of the sport" construction in user friendly shapes, 5 distinct board lines as of last winter anyways. The original Metal Stubbies were out at ECES 3 yrs ago.
NSR -eased off race boards
Monsters- big freecarve boards
Classics - first gen Titanal race board designs for freecarve and rec race use
Stubby- short and fun freecarve
All Mountain- tweaked AM designs to suit the metal construction.
Certainly something from these must sit in " current level" status.
Of course most of these are just me assembling good ideas from other builders and tweaking to user friendliness. All utilize up to date technology designed for their own end use.
I think your perspective is quite high end and currently I am getting old, lazy and like the easier stuff to ride a lot of times.

Hey bro, no hard feelings and correct me please if I have misspoken any of the facts.

BV

[kildy]

guys boards with no camber or banana camber are a joke sorry but the tip has no down force when riding flat and less down force then a cambered board when in turn, meaning nose flaps in the wind. Also you have to put less pressure onto nose meaning sit back, have fun on the steeps carving when sitting back. The reason so many love it, it certainly slides, feathers or enters turns easyly because you are realy not carving into turn, try taking any board detuning it or just buy a shorter board have fun on that.
To the guy about free riding and racing you are correct, though racing is at neck break speeds on terain 100 people just made the same turn at, and there lies the problem that needs to be solved stabality is a must no downforce is a joke when that tip starts flaping so that is why I laugh at banana camber, when I free ride I say to myself looks pretty clean over there and that is where I lay my turn, definetly different. Kessler and anyone else today using Titnal with bent nose you just like the stability of the metal it is a huge improving little thing Titnal, trust me and all the other ski racers out there, I would love to take the two sheets of Titnal out of WC racers skis and see his run he would look like a goey for sure.

[kildy]

Now I have some more time since I did not sleep last night, Tinkler and his 1993 invention, was a stick in front of his binding pushing on the center of his board making his center stiffer and edges softer that was it. “TORSIONAL SUCK” Talk about the opposite of what I had already done with Ride Snowboards and Liquid Snowboards before my meeting with “the inventor of camber Mike Tinkler” See picture of Ride and Liquid Snowboards. My favorite is when Tinkler said the snowstick were under his binding as to insinuate the kildy flex being the same as his snowcraps, not to mention I would love to see the sticks under bindings one hell of a balancing act, why has no one ever seen that stick, they are the same today as they were back in 93 stupid, except now for some reason he pushes on the edges with his sticks (I told him to do in our meeting of 93 based off my already knowledge SEE PICTURE) as he mentioned with a signed non disclosure agreement, which means I cannot tell or make a Snowstick, oh no how will I succeed. Does anyone really view my Kildy Flex as a snow stick wow no comment, and all I can say is I laughed when I saw he put two sticks to the edges and mounted the snowstick’s from the middle reversing the problem now he has “TORSIONAL SUCK CENTER” piviot point same thing Jack ass. Now he just mounts his Snowsticks on a Kildy Flex and somehow he invented the Kildy Flex cracks me up the Derby on top of his boards is mine if he thinks the Kildy Flex and his snowsticks are the same why does he use or need both think about it u-all. The fact is I never cared enough to stop him because I was snowboarding in the Olympics and shooting for the next Olympics I still don’t really give a **** because by now I thought everyone already knew the truth, apparently not, so I will show you a very easy to understand drawing after this I am done and I will be posting my new snowboards very soon and you will see once again what I do when I sit down and invent, it is not stolen and it is like no one else, it is original and patented end of story. Does anyone recall Swix SL armor this was also my invention so is the oval ski pole, Hello Mark Archer, he can tell you all about that one. These are just a few of my inventions I have many on the way as we speak. Kessler invents this hilarious banana camber and suddenly you will see Tinkler do it oh ya he already has stolen Kesslers idea but just wait ten years it was tinkler who invented this gay banana camber invention, ask why the best skiers don’t beg their 1 billion dollar ski companies to come up with this awesome bent ski idea ya. Oh ya Tinkler I met the guy from Hawii that you stole your asymmetrical windsurf invention from he had some nice words to describe you with as well LOL. Now what I do have no doubt about Tinkler is your split “tip” invention that was sick, remember the one you sold to many that actually does not qualify to be a snowboard in any type snowboard race. You did this one month after seeing my split all the way through my board, NO ONE had ever done, but you should have read the rules before panicking and trying to speed things up so to take credit for my split through center. The split tail of 10 inches or so had been done so many years ago and Tinkler did not invent this either as he is appearing to be claiming, the Hexel guy worked at Sims who advised and made the Sims Burner for Fawsett, I was on his team I should know… by the way it did not have a banana camber who ever claimed that. Tinkler why again was your split board solid in center and out to the nose split same on tail oh ya because your Kildy Flex was split edge to edge in middle to avoid my patent as I instructed you how to avoid my patent, thinking you would never try such a lame idea but I now understand you will do whatever it takes to be the man… my mistake.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If I piss anyone off sorry, I only dislike Tinkler and anyone in my shoes would.

[KingCrimson]

Hey Mr. B ...Pow stands for Powder...it is not for GROOMED OK!

It is an Idea based on my observations from years on skis as well as
snowboards in powder and the fact that powder offers similarities to the
fluid dynamics involved in surfboards...note also that it would have no metal
edges and they would be rounded. All the snowboards I have ridden and seen others on have so much surface area...one is forced to stay on top unless
your on pitches of 40 deg. or more...this is an Idea to try to get the boards
to submarine more without so much pitch OK...The Powder here in Colorado is Light and Fluffy
and I think this board could work here...sorry if this idea offends you...:p

Condescending time, is it? It seems like you have a few good posts, then revert to Butthole mode. Sorry if this idea offends you.

Realistically, most of us need to use a ski lift in addition to hiking to access the kind of powder which would break the threshold determining whether this stick is a nuisance, or a party on snow. Not the stuff that falls after one storm and gets skied out after an hour or two, but rather powder that you see in Hard Attack or Apocalypse Snow. If you use a ski lift, chances are, you're gonna be riding on snow that SUCKS for this board. It's all a tradeoff, but it appears that many people are happy with Prior's Powstick.

Personally, I've ridden in powder twice. Once it was 2 feet deep, the other time it was 8 inches. I was on a deck 20cms in the waist. It wasn't my favorite, but the Boilers made it interesting.

[Hans]

Interesting drawings of that technique. Like to see and ride those new Kildy boards.....

[MUD]

Hey Kildy,
Thanks for the sharing drawings, REALLY neat ideas........

[MUD]

I do have one question? Why do you guys have patents if you are not going to defend them when the idea is stolen? By not defending a patent you have NO legal ground to ever go after an infringement again. The lawyers will say; You let this guy do it, why sue us????. The judge will agree.

Is it just so you can sell the idea to a company?

[bobdea]

There was a guy who was riding a k2 split to a couple inches from the binding this was probably 1992 or 93 and he said that the concept was something that was being explored In years past
Nice to hear so many ideas
BTW Bryan why not send Jack one of your tinklers and put your money where your mouth is
Maybe he'll send you the stubfari and you two can contrast and compare?

[kildy]

Yes the K2 rider I know who u r talking about dang, fogot about him Sanders Nie small blond dude that is great all white boards I remember but that means Tinkler did not invent the split board oh don't tell him he will be bumbed out he truly believes his own bull**** you know the type I am talking about right. Any how good call that is funny, but no one period invented split from tip through tail no ski no snowboard I did it by myself no one held my hand including tinkler.
I am still fired up I will be better soon oops I wanted to remove that sorry I write stuff and remove it then I feel better
As to the patent and defend it issue I already told you I was busy and could give a **** at the time however all you folks out there questioning my integrety is not funy so now I do care but I did not pay for my patent I was simply the inventor on the patent 24/7 payed for it and they are long gone as a company so what do you want me to do call the x owner ask him for some doe to go get tinkler that is funny you owe my 500 dollars what ever but my new board has a totaly new patent I own it and I will defend it because the new one is the shizzz for sure two weeks you will all see it has a new derby alloy and a new Kildy Flex and new bottom board trust me when I say NEW and not Tinklers just pay attention everyone so when we (Tinkler and I) battle you all can get a good laugh

[kildy]

sorry Jack about the swearing forgot I never read my stuff type send spell all wrong :)

[cail]

two weeks you will all see it has a new derby alloy and a new Kildy Flex and new bottom board trust me when I say NEW

hey kildy will your new boards be in production this year? kinda pumped to see it.

[martyagt4]

Wow. Just wow...

He might be gay? What are you going to do next? "Uhh, my dad can beat up your dad."

Bwaaaahaaaaahaaaaa!!!!

[kildy]

Yes they should actualy be done just a few days into the next year technicaly soon after the new year so the photos will come after testing if you like cool looking space ships you may find these pretty hot. The boards are so crazy looking not sure on the performance but I am all about the looks any how, I will just ride them no matter what and make it work, no worries.

[KingCrimson]

Wow. Just wow...

He might be gay? What are you going to do next? "Uhh, my dad can beat up your dad."

Bwaaaahaaaaahaaaaa!!!!


To be honest, the whole Wow thing isn't much better anymore! :lol:

Come back to highschool, I'll show you.

[kildy]

Oops seriously I was not wanting to leave that I write stuff sometimes and plan to remove I am not that mean sorry that was kinda funny but my dad is not alive so now you may insert your sneaker into mouth OK ay no worries long time ago. I am done for the night you guys have fun gotta meeting in the morning must get ready.

[Shred Gruumer]

Good insight..

I just cant't belive that I/We own a Kildy ride race board and you are actually on this web post.. I just say I don't care what the input is from people, I just like to hear whats going on. The fact that I or my friends have a Kildy Ride race board and you are communicating is pretty cool.. very cool.. Some of us ride pretty well. I have enjoyed your take on all of this as well as others.. Thats how I talk to Bruce and try to make things even better or just easier to ride, and make things to just enjoy..

Thanks for your input. as well as other who responded... I know you have been around and im never going toot my horn by any means, but riding alpine for 25 years has been a joy.. lucky to ride every thing that was available..


Im glad the Coiler and Bruce makes me stuff that fits my needs.

Thanks again Kildy for all you gave me..!!

Cheerios!

Right said Shred

[kildy]

No crap thanks dude that means alot to me seriously I appreciat that keep riding I will be 60 when I am done hope to see out there we will use wheel chairs to get to the londge from our snowboards

[cail]

The boards are so crazy looking not sure on the performance but I am all about the looks any how
:biggthump

[kildy]

you know it yeeeaaa boy
:D

[bobdea]

Your integrity or really anyones just pointing out that I I'd seen splits prior to the time mentioned by the other guy
I'd really like to see a tinkler demo, big claims behind these things, that's all

I'm real interested in your board too, could I ride one later in the winter?
Also, I must echo what shred said. Thanks for everything and for posting here

[kildy]

no worries I have been trying to say the split is old I never claimed the split I said only I have the only split through board and under foot I am done but you guys are cool no worries I appreciat the conversations I love it trust me I just wish I could communicate better and finished my english classes

[eaglez]

Kildy, I want to send you an email. Can you enable yours in your profile? Or just send me one through BOL and I will respond.

Thanks
Darren :biggthump

[kildy]

Chamers? is this u

[eaglez]

Chamers? is this u

Nope. Darren Eagles. :biggthump

[Shred Gruumer]

Seems as your getting a lot of press and emails.. I wont bother you with that like I do Bruce!!! ha.. sorry Bruce I lv ya as always..

I don't have anything in cleveland other than small hills and the best in Football ..bring it on!
(bring in on any.. the hall of fame is in Cleveland) Go bucks.. Your welcome anytime..

Thanks for even being here... bad, good or whatever... All I can say is thanks.. And Thanks for Bruce for putting up with my Ideas and doing them.. And sometimes they work.. the X2 has just been a really fun board to ride.. and for me thats what its been about... Im to old to race, and I just ride.. thats all. thats what I do, but maybe not the rest,, Im tired. Make riding your best..

To all! Get what ya need.!!.. Its all fun and isn't that why we do it..??

Right said shred

[Bordy]

Billy Billy Billy, You know I love you too but must put in my 2 cents here.
The above statement makes it sound like you are riding on edge all the time. last time I went out I had to ride flat on plenty of occasions so tip/tail pressure was nice to have to make that easier and safer on the type of snow we experience the majority of time. . Its a balance of not having too much but enough to make the board perform in all situations. I have been and always will be an advocate of lower camber boards. It gives a nice balance. If you want any decent rebound energy from a board with less or no camber, you need to make it stiffer and by doing so you decrease the ability to bend it in a wider range which will limit turning capabilities. Been there, done that with lower camber.



Alpine riding is different for everyone. I have seen racers who cannot even carve a turn but got the biggest cheers from many more experienced racers as they came across the finish as just getting through the course was a big success for them . You cannot compare everyone to riders of your level who have the skills to execute the "current level of alpine". Many need different designs built in to accommodate the fact they are not superhuman and maybe can only get out a handful of times per season.
Maybe it should read: "Top level racers are freecarvers who have perfected the art of riding a board around sticks quickly"

From my perspective the equipment a racer uses and a freecarver uses are becoming more and more different each year so eventually you would think that also considering them a different aspect of the sport would somewhat make sense


Again, at your level you may find some of the boards I build , which many people have given great reviews on, too boring as you like more demanding stuff for your skills.



Ummmm, didn't I see a post somewhere by one of your team where it was stated about the Bsquared and I quote:

" Billy Bordy has designed a board and Prior has built it to his specs. We had a run done and believe it to be a nice version of the stubby, in which he also had a hand in laying out".

About 3 years ago I started using the "current level of the sport" construction in user friendly shapes, 5 distinct board lines as of last winter anyways. The original Metal Stubbies were out at ECES 3 yrs ago.
NSR -eased off race boards
Monsters- big freecarve boards
Classics - first gen Titanal race board designs for freecarve and rec race use
Stubby- short and fun freecarve
All Mountain- tweaked AM designs to suit the metal construction.
Certainly something from these must sit in " current level" status.
Of course most of these are just me assembling good ideas from other builders and tweaking to user friendliness. All utilize up to date technology designed for their own end use.
I think your perspective is quite high end and currently I am getting old, lazy and like the easier stuff to ride a lot of times.

Hey bro, no hard feelings and correct me please if I have misspoken any of the facts.

BV

Never any hard feelings Bruce, I think the quote is from Dave in another post, I tryed to find it to see the context. I'm not sure why the bsquared is compared to the stubby, they are different boards for sure, and the stubby is all yours... not sure why it reads otherwise nor would I want it to be considered a competitor to it, the Bsquared is just a run free ride stick with race board soul, but when I ride it there are no sticks to turn around!:D

I don't disagree there is a niche for every type of board for lots of types of riders however I can not support the notion that we as a industry can support the seperation of the two. They are all alpine snowboards made for riding using alpine gear, some for race courses some for cord, at your local stomping ground. We have both seen some racers use gear that rips all over the hill and some products that can be a pain out side the race course. If the fate of the sport was left up to the guy who only ride twice a year on their Factory Prime and has a desk job the rest of the time how much would the sport progress? Perhaps it just me being me as you know...

I am not knocking the need for lots of types of boards for lots of types of riders, I just get a bit twisted when the carved turn is the goal in all aspect of the sport but the skidded or feathered turn is considered the goal by some while raceing, this is just not true, all the notion that you need "stiffer" gear to free ride with and softer gear to race with is just false, its all personal preferance.

Sure I want alot more out of my boards that others may not want or need, But most free ride board don't always cut it for me requardless of the builder, I ride them and just want more, that again is just me..I hope you didn't think I was singling out your free ride boards, just a freeride boards you know what I mean, the Pure Carve Guys at buttermilk need a differnt stick then the Blue ridge riders. Different snow different pitch different board. But most Free ride flexes just fold for me....

"Top level racers are freecarvers who have perfected the art of riding a board around sticks quickly"


I like it! The point is that guys and gals racing are still alpine snowboarders even the ones who are trying to finish their first run ever, some times I see their level of riding misjudged by lesser educated and or experanced alpine riders.

I think when the concept of rocker is aplied to PGS but even more to PSL where the board is always on edge I think it is very usable and will have a aplication used at first by thoose at the upper levels before trickling down to the masses.

All the rockered board I have ridden do swim while pointed straight, they also like to spin out if not weighted properly, but they do work and are very ridable they also have some very new positive attributes like the mad pop you get while starting to spin, the ease of weighting the tip and tail, the ability to have a very controlable feather or drift turn, oh yea and they don't decamber in the hot box:).

I purposley spent my afternoon on the hill asking anyone i saw with a rockered freestyle stick what they thought about the ride of there rockered freestyle stick, these are all people that ride a board for work at some level, park builders, upper level instructors, Pro riders, etc...

They all had similar comments but I heard things like, "Its like Cheating" , "Best Board ever", "Where was this board ten year ago when I had a career", and so on. A long time friend and very talented rider has been on the burton Hero since last year he says its the first time he has had so much fun snowboarding in over a decade, and that says alot.

I have ridden lots of stuff and the rockered stuff sure is fun.



Kildy, Dude I have seen you get questioned about almost everything you have constructed From Junk in the oven at Arvids house, to double stacking ride and later bomber bindings I still remember that prior Chris inserted for your ride plates it was one of the first time he had ever done inserts and man could you tell, from soft decks (some times split in many different ways) under precambered Kildy plates to all the skinny shapes you and billy had prior make lined up at the shop to a 203 in a SL course on race day. I have been there when you strip down to a GS suit in a nastar course on exabition to try and get one more tenth, how about the technica boots and custom bindings with the lever........ Not to mention some of the classic Kildyism that are two far out there to comprehend online with out knowing you as a person. You spent like two years drinking cider vinager and tried to talk me into why i should be also.....I tried some in the kitchen of that place we lived at with Grasso and Jen I new it was silly but you said I should try it and sure enough I did, man it was gross but i tried it. I through up like three times while working at the bull moose that night.

I'm not saying Rocker is the answer but it is a possible solution. Just like the cider vinager wasn't the answer....

Oh and I think Chalmers might be in the Slammer from 18 Carrot farm gone bad. him or Hodskins. I don't remember...

Don't worry about your writing here, Its not english class. For years I got hammered about my writing but never about my riding, your in the same boat. Plus after i went and took a course at the local school no one noticed any how!
BB

[Shred Gruumer]

Thats how I know!! :1luvu:

AS always Great.

Right said Shred..

[Rob Stevens]

The average hardbooter can no-slide carve, without a problem.

One of the hardest things to learn in alpine (or softbooting) is high-performance sliding turns. My buddy Greg, a Whistler legend, calls it "Slarving" or slide-carving.

Figuring out slarving usually comes on in the typical hardbooters riding life, around the time that they figure out that they might want to take their **** onto steeps or off groomed tracks.

Once you get out there, you realize that you can't just lock into a sidecut carve and come out the other end. It gets apparent that you'll have to power the edge, without relying so much on edge angle, or just "tipping it over."

In this situation, pressure between the feet gets more honed. You might not generate a ton of edge, but your pressure control gets so good that you can do things in tight places and on rougher surfaces you could only do before on the smooth stuff.

If it's at this point you get into racing, you'll be better equipped. If you get into racing at the intermediate stage, you'll likely be pretty good at locking turns down on smooth, flatter stuff, but racecourses will throw you.

Good riders are good racers. Good racers are good riders. Good riders know that a pinned sliding turn takes as much or more time to learn than carving on a tipped over snowboard. If technology comes along that enhances high performance sliding in varying terrain of varying steepness, the "Good" will probably like it.

Ride lots. If that means racing, you'll get better. If that means freeriding, you'll get better. Both get you better. Time and conditioning are the great levellers.

Billy... What freeride board has held up under you? You didn't rule out the possibility of a good one, I think.

[tinks]

Kildy, you are so delusional and full of crap that I find it hard to dignify some of your statements but I can’t let it go and have riders think for a minute you have any credibility. By attacking me you get to associate yourself with all the good work I have done on researching, developing, proto-typing and riding systems that download the tip and tail. Take the Snow Stix arms off your K2 derby plate and then see how your design is at downloading the tip and tail.

I have searched everywhere for a patent in your name as the inventor and no board patents show up. Curiously your tuning device patents show up using your name but NO BOARD PATENT! I hate to rain on your “Oh I have a patent trip”, but you don’t, and you need to stop saying it because it is a lie and a figment of your imagination. So stop making claims about this mythical patent that you can’t substantiate. Like I said before, it is kind of hard to get a patent on something that is already patented. Failure to show this mythical patent means you do not have one. There is a big difference between filing a patent, and having one go through the process of examination and have it issued. That is why you do not have a patent number.

You make statements about the Snow Stix and it looks obvious that you have not read the Snow Stix patent that MUD looked up and posted here, or looked at Figure 4B. When you look at my patent you will see that my binding goes over the riser connector plate. You call yourself a designer and can’t even work out how Snow Stix work. You will not admit that you have dual Snow Stix arms attached to a K2 Trimble riser plate. You lie when you say you worked on split tail concepts before me. If you did have one when I showed you my split tip and tail in the hotel room at Mt. Bachelor in 1997 you would have pulled it out of your board bag, or as we can guess you would have said something. You weren’t even thinking of splits before you saw that board let alone using Snow Stix arms to control the splits as you are today. The Tinkler Snow Stix plate you see on the Pokkis board is mounted using the binding. It is the same plate Jasey, Fawcett, Tyler, Sigi Grabner, and many used before Salt Lake. Please don’t claim that too. I still claim I made and rode the first “slit” tail on a modern race board. Fawcett was the first to race on one. The FIS rule was made as a result of the Austrians protesting me and Fawcett at Whistler for using the tails in World Cup. A definition of snowboard was then drafted. Stop copying my concepts and claiming them as your own and move on. I will say again take the dual cambered Snow Stix barring arms that externally slide on the tip and tail OFF the K2 EPB plate that you use and call the Kildy Flex.

Please stop making rude, personal, nonsensical attacks. I have enough Kildy the freak stories and comments to attack you with. Please just don’t go there anymore. Stick to the facts. Read the patent. Look at the patent drawings, then tell me I am wrong for thinking I have a legitimate right to use external cambered dampening arms and you don‘t. I work hard at my craft building boards to have you and many others here put me down for trying new things is rather disheartening. For anyone who has enjoyed riding a Burner you have Fawcett and Tinkler to thank. Do you guys really want people like me to stop. I believe I build a very technically advanced board. Note I said BUILD. I guess you guys will always have Kildy’s drawings to ride.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Mike, is I-84 closed to the Dalles?

Can you ride Mon, Tuesday or Wed?

Love to get some turns in with you.

I look forward to being able to ride a "Tinkler" for not only the groomers but the deep Pow too!!

Keep on bringing the goods!!

Bryan

[Bruce Varsava]

Never any hard feelings Bruce, I think the quote is from Dave in another post, I tryed to find it to see the context. I'm not sure why the bsquared is compared to the stubby, they are different boards for sure, and the stubby is all yours... not sure why it reads otherwise nor would I want it to be considered a competitor to it, the Bsquared is just a run free ride stick with race board soul, but when I ride it there are no sticks to turn around!:D
I was flattered with the quote from Dave. Not like I haven't taken ideas from others for almost every board I make, it makes progress faster and more effective. the Stub is also a fun free ride stick with race board soul as the materials are almost identical to race stuff. With the very positive feedback I get it would be surprising if similar designs didn't pop up.


I don't disagree there is a niche for every type of board for lots of types of riders however I can not support the notion that we as a industry can support the seperation of the two. They are all alpine snowboards made for riding using alpine gear, some for race courses some for cord, at your local stomping ground. We have both seen some racers use gear that rips all over the hill and some products that can be a pain out side the race course. If the fate of the sport was left up to the guy who only ride twice a year on their Factory Prime and has a desk job the rest of the time how much would the sport progress? Perhaps it just me being me as you know...
I didn't know there was a big separation going on? I freecarve on race gear all the time. Just don't like to see anyone disrespecting another riders style. Not that you were but since we are pretty much all using gear that is similar to a certain degree the technique seems the part that is most easily differentiated .If you want to lay your body down every carve or if you want to stay upright and angulate, its all good.


I am not knocking the need for lots of types of boards for lots of types of riders, I just get a bit twisted when the carved turn is the goal in all aspect of the sport but the skidded or feathered turn is considered the goal by some while raceing, this is just not true, all the notion that you need "stiffer" gear to free ride with and softer gear to race with is just false, its all personal preferance.
The gear is so different now its hard to compare anymore. For freecarve I like softer gear as I find it more versatile. Once you learn to solidly carve that blue run on a stiffer board, you can do it with much less effort on a softer board, not as exciting( unless the snow is soft and you lean forwards) but use that blue run to get to the icy black run and you'll have all the excitement you want and the softer board will do wonders:)
From what I understand now, the race gear, especially tail sections are getting pretty darn stiff again.





Sure I want alot more out of my boards that others may not want or need, But most free ride board don't always cut it for me requardless of the builder, I ride them and just want more, that again is just me..I hope you didn't think I was singling out your free ride boards, just a freeride boards you know what I mean, the Pure Carve Guys at buttermilk need a differnt stick then the Blue ridge riders. Different snow different pitch different board. But most Free ride flexes just fold for me....

Didn't you just say a few sentences above that needing stiffer freeride boards was false:lol:
What most people don't realize is it is reeeeealy tough to make 2 boards pretty much exactly the same especially the overall stiffness. Production boards vary considerably and even when I was working with racers it took a lot of effort to get duplication process sorted out close enough for them to be happy. The techniques I developed on them, I now use for every board I build so it allows me to set the stiffness with great accuracy. Does it mean that the customer gets a board that does exactly what they want, not always but it is a great deal more accurate than no system. If there is a benchmark to work from where they have ridden one of my boards , then it is a very effective tool as the first board I do for anyone is calculated off previous data and the more data the better. This is the huge advantage of getting a properly built custom board. Since I have never built you a board, you can't really say if my design suits you or not as part of the process is asking questions and coming to conclusions about what and how to build . You no doubt have very specific needs to match your abilities so that of course would be factored in and surely a lotof the boards I build would not be to your liking. Its very personal and I try to treat it as such.


I think when the concept of rocker is aplied to PGS but even more to PSL where the board is always on edge I think it is very usable and will have a aplication used at first by thoose at the upper levels before trickling down to the masses.

All the rockered board I have ridden do swim while pointed straight, they also like to spin out if not weighted properly, but they do work and are very ridable they also have some very new positive attributes like the mad pop you get while starting to spin, the ease of weighting the tip and tail, the ability to have a very controlable feather or drift turn, oh yea and they don't decamber in the hot box:).

I purposley spent my afternoon on the hill asking anyone i saw with a rockered freestyle stick what they thought about the ride of there rockered freestyle stick, these are all people that ride a board for work at some level, park builders, upper level instructors, Pro riders, etc...

They all had similar comments but I heard things like, "Its like Cheating" , "Best Board ever", "Where was this board ten year ago when I had a career", and so on. A long time friend and very talented rider has been on the burton Hero since last year he says its the first time he has had so much fun snowboarding in over a decade, and that says alot.

I have ridden lots of stuff and the rockered stuff sure is fun.


I can totally see it for freestyle but part of racing is the rebound of the board for acceleration especially on flatter sections of a course. I feel that would be tough to get out of a flatter board. If I'm proven wrong, I'll buy you a beer, hell maybe even 2.
BV

[MJB]

wow. what a thread. we certainly need to harness this passion to build alpine bigger (recreationally and competitively) so the builders have more $ for R & D.

Anyone who has never made a mistake
has never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein

[kildy]

This is hilarious Tinkler but just to let you know my next snowboards are patented and I applied for them all myself with very nice lawyers you will love them, so do not get that squirrely brain of yours all worked up. As to my “TWO PIECE SNOWBOARD” Patent title, if it was abandoned or no maintenance fees where paid to maintain the patent which may be possible considering 24/7 went belly up and I have already stated I was not in control of this patent nor could give a crap about this patent and for that matter your drumstick patent, but your drum sticks and my two piece snowboard are not in the same league buddy or should I say they do not conflict with each other patents. The two Piece Snowboard was described as a bottom board having no camber at all and top board with a fixed amount of camber built in and no adjustable gayness, the top board slides along a track fastened to bottom board for the shear factor involved when placing one object on top of another object and flexing and the top piece being constructed like a second snowboard introduced camber into the camber-less bottom board which than ended up looking and acting like a one piece snowboard so in fact it was more of a construction issue than a gay after market ad-on, now how does that in any way shape or form sound like a drumstick you mount onto snowboard to adjust camber to the aftermarket snowboard, I am sure since you did not include the snowboard in your patent or did you where you patenting the snowboard as well tinkler, ya Burton tried that. Now also tell me why if things where not looking good for this patent of mine after the search done by very good and expensive lawyers do you think 24/7 would sign contracts with LL Bean and almost Salamon to sell these boards? But as far as you in either case just straight up steeling my Two Piece Snowboard design you are a “scum bag” right is there another word for someone steeling other people designs and portraying them as their own, I did not think so. As far as the split baby that was all yours if you are talking about that awesome nose split nice one patent that, but if you mean a split under feet and all the way to tip, that you can soon search for under patents with a new concept to snowboards you may have to wait oh let’s see 1 year plus 18 months minimum right Tinkler enjoy that, and if you think it is un-patentable wait till you see the concept before using that squirrely brain again. As far as you telling me to stop or you will bring out dirt on me well first off that sounds like you are scared of me telling everyone what is really going on here and secondly I take it as a total threat from a fat out of shape old bastard and you had better put your nightly night diapers on and keep dreaming tuff guy because we for sure will see each other again…then what will you say to me. You and I know what is going on so I will be the one watching you crap your pants…
<O:p
Keep posting Tinkler this just get better and better can’t wait till you see my next boards "off the computer" should be a total wake up call for you, because to me you seem to be right where I left you off in 1996…. LOL MAKE SOMETHING NEW BUDDY OR ARE YOU WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE.
:1luvu:Lots of love

[Bruce Varsava]

Board builders and designers UFC cagematch:boxing_sm
Fin, can you get an Octagon ring for SES? I'm going out to run some stairs now with my walkman ( can't afford an Ipod) playing Eye Of The Tiger.
Sorry, just a thought I couldn't keep to myself:)

[Hotbeans]

I love a good 'ole fashioned Hoedown! BTW, there used to be a bar in Sheridan, WY that erupted into a full on bar brawl 'bout every weekend. Ahh, good times..

[Bordy]

I was flattered with the quote from Dave. Not like I haven't taken ideas from others for almost every board I make, it makes progress faster and more effective. the Stub is also a fun free ride stick with race board soul as the materials are almost identical to race stuff. With the very positive feedback I get it would be surprising if similar designs didn't pop up.

Sure enough.....

I didn't know there was a big separation going on? I freecarve on race gear all the time. Just don't like to see anyone disrespecting another riders style. Not that you were but since we are pretty much all using gear that is similar to a certain degree the technique seems the part that is most easily differentiated .If you want to lay your body down every carve or if you want to stay upright and angulate, its all good.


Thats the stoke I have been pimping since 85........Phil and I even shot size doesn't matter video years back to keep it ligit!

The gear is so different now its hard to compare anymore. For freecarve I like softer gear as I find it more versatile. Once you learn to solidly carve that blue run on a stiffer board, you can do it with much less effort on a softer board, not as exciting( unless the snow is soft and you lean forwards) but use that blue run to get to the icy black run and you'll have all the excitement you want and the softer board will do wonders:)
From what I understand now, the race gear, especially tail sections are getting pretty darn stiff again.

Yep lots of standing on the back foot going on with the tapered tail...




Didn't you just say a few sentences above that needing stiffer freeride boards was false:lol:
What most people don't realize is it is reeeeealy tough to make 2 boards pretty much exactly the same especially the overall stiffness. Production boards vary considerably and even when I was working with racers it took a lot of effort to get duplication process sorted out close enough for them to be happy. The techniques I developed on them, I now use for every board I build so it allows me to set the stiffness with great accuracy. Does it mean that the customer gets a board that does exactly what they want, not always but it is a great deal more accurate than no system. If there is a benchmark to work from where they have ridden one of my boards , then it is a very effective tool as the first board I do for anyone is calculated off previous data and the more data the better. This is the huge advantage of getting a properly built custom board. Since I have never built you a board, you can't really say if my design suits you or not as part of the process is asking questions and coming to conclusions about what and how to build . You no doubt have very specific needs to match your abilities so that of course would be factored in and surely a lotof the boards I build would not be to your liking. Its very personal and I try to treat it as such.

I think you just proved my attempted point with your statement about free riding on race gear, earlier in the thread Jack mentioned he needed Different(stiffer) gear to free ride with I was of course disagreeing.


I can totally see it for freestyle but part of racing is the rebound of the board for acceleration especially on flatter sections of a course. I feel that would be tough to get out of a flatter board. If I'm proven wrong, I'll buy you a beer, hell maybe even 2.
BV

Yea But if the board rides so much better in the turns it may be worth the time in the flats, plus it is like the kessler effect, If every one is riding a Kessler then they all have the same advandages and disadvantages, If everyones board was rockered then every one whould have the same advantage or disadvandage, hence evening out the playing field.

Just like some athletes travel with a softer stick for Icieer conditions i could see a athlete with a Rockered board for the steep nar courses and a cambered board for others. It could happen for sure in PSL...

Fire up that eye of the tiger I just broke out the sound track from footloose and since I live in UT where Dancing is frowned upon I'm not only getting fired up but am really going against the establishment and the MAN which just motivates me more;) I cant even get a beer in this Holy state some days so I really hope Rocker makes it so I can get my drink on.:biggthump

B2

Damn it I tried to use the qoute thing like have been to be cool but some of my text is in the blue box with your post..... Thanks for your understanding in my lack of computer skills.....

[Rob Stevens]

What FR board you like, Bordy.

[rwcow]

I've been following this thread since the beginning, great procrastination tool to get me through finals... I hadn't gotten involved until now b/c I'm way too much of a beginner to really chime in, but I do have one question....


Kildy, you say here


Tinkler why again was your split board solid in center and out to the nose split same on tail oh ya because your Kildy Flex was split edge to edge in middle to avoid my patent as I instructed you how to avoid my patent, thinking you would never try such a lame idea but I now understand you will do whatever it takes to be the man… my mistake.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If I piss anyone off sorry, I only dislike Tinkler and anyone in my shoes would.


I'm wondering why you would explain someone how to specifically avoid your patent? Obviously, as two board designers, you can share ideas/etc, but if you don't want someone stealing your idea, why would you tell him how to avoid the patent in the first place? Maybe this is something that designers do a lot and I'm just not aware of it (b/c I'm far from being a designer)??

I'm not trying to fan the fire here or make any accusation through this question, this quote has just been bothering me for a while b/c I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

Thanks!

[gnat]

Bordy: drinking cider vinager and tried to talk me into why i should be also


Kildy just made me drink that a couple of months ago - YUK

[gray_on_tray]

I can't believe you drank that, gnat! You have to get those boys out of the house and back on the snow.:barf:

[aeronaut]

My tone is affected by the fact that I get annoyed when every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. Argh. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport.

Jack,

A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes (even if it's been tried before and failed.)

I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith.

Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group.

I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want.

Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.)

Regards,
Martin

[Mike T]

Definitely been enjoying reading this thread!


I can't say that anyone has convinced me that I have to try a rockered board though. I saw a lof of rockered fatty skis this past Saturday at Bachelor. Everyone I asked was on them for one reason only: Pow. FWIW.

I am however very much enjoying a quiver that is mostly either "toned down race boards" or has some race-inspired features. Except for rock boards and powder gear my quiver has completely turned over in the past two years, and it's pretty much all metallic and softer now. I don't think it's a coincidence that my riding has improved quite a bit, after having levelled off the previous two seasons.

I got on a glass SL board yesterday and it felt like it wasn't even bending compared to my newer softer stuff!

[Zone]

Just to chime in.
Really enjoy this long discussion too. Nothing to contribute to the camber issue cause never tried it.
You could have quoted Aeronaut 5yrs ago with EC, and it was a pain in the neck then (and still even now) to say it's OK to EC and try something different. I also give them credit for keep on going against mainstream.
I like it when I try something new and unusual. Being an Aquarian helps.
Cheers and have a good Xmas everyone.


Jack,

A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes.

I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith.

Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group.

I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want.

Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.)

Regards,
Martin

[Jack Michaud]

Bordy,

Great to have you back. I think you're misunderstanding my point about racing/freecarving. I'm in total agreement with you that the vast majority of racers at your level and above are master freecarvers. That's not my argument. My point is the equipment for racing and freecarving can be different. If it weren't, we'd all be riding GS or SL boards with 10 pound hangl/vist plates on top. No thanks. Some of the best alpine boards I've ever ridden are 170cm/14m/21cm, and 171cm/11.2m/19.5cm. How would you classify those? They would be useless for serious racing. A freecarver's review of this rockered Tinkler would be completely valid and useful. So would a racer's. But just one or the other wouldn't tell the whole story.

If you're worried about the alpine industry splitting, that ship has sailed my friend. It split in about 1991, when Burton split their M line into the PJ and the M. Other companies made similar splits around then or earlier. I think BV and other people in this thread have sufficiently made the case that indeed racing and freecarving are different. Kildy summed it up nicely. Freecarvers avoid ruts.

MUD,

Ahem. I was not trying to attack Tinkler's integrity, and I don't believe I did. I did not know it was his design. I thought it was a random custom, not a researched design. I'm still not going to take anyone's word that it works on hardpack. I'd like to see for myself.

YYZ,

I know Hot (and others) made h-lam boards. That was the joke. What's old is new.

aeronaut,

The point was, asyms have been tried, and rocker has been tried. I don't think re-trying them with new materials is time well spent, if the goal is on-piste carving (which the OP said).

all,

I regret that my tone has been less than polite. I started out politely, but didn't get an answer. Would we still be reading this now, 250 posts later, if I had been? I think questioning this design would have ruffled some feathers regardless.

[James Ong]

Jack,

A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes.

I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith.

Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group.

I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want.

Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.)

Regards,
Martin

Things about BOL i KNOW to be true:

1.If you deviate from the acceptable riding techniques ( tech articles) you will be flamed . Seems like when these commandments were handed down from heaven they decided this was it and nothing else needs to be discussed. Oh yeah apparently goes for board design too.
2.Everyone will be gung-ho for whatever board they happen to be on, it's human nature and Pokkis should be commended for sharing information. How many times has Jack mentioned his totally cool M spec schtubby in the last 3 months :eplus2:

3.Somewhere in every controversial thread SOMEONE:lol: will say " well how does that board, technique, or whatever work in the frozen east coast
tundra? :sleep: These same people who don't race btw will argue till blue in the face that racing on ICY (read east coast) and rutted courses is different somehow from "real " carving. Without a clock all that cool technically correct body position just ends up being dare i say.... ice skating? Too much egotistical chest thumping methinks.

[Jack Michaud]

Things about BOL i KNOW to be true:

1.If you deviate from the acceptable riding techniques ( tech articles) you will be flamed . Seems like when these commandments were handed down from heaven they decided this was it and nothing else needs to be discussed. Oh yeah apparently goes for board design too.

Whatever. The EC site used to have a picture of the technique I like with a big red "X" through it. For a long time now I have been saying EC is great as long as you know the basics first, and that it's not the path to ultimate edge grip on ice. That's all.

seen on bumpersticker: "Howcome so-called 'open-minded' people never see it my way?"

[tinks]

seen on bumpersticker: "Howcome so-called 'open-minded' people never see it my way?"

Jack, you finally put a smile on my face. :) I love your bumper sticker quote! Thanks.

Tinks

[Jack Michaud]

Jack, you finally put a smile on my face. :) I love your bumper sticker quote! Thanks.

Tinks

:biggthump

[Shred Gruumer]

Advice is free: The right answer will cost plenty.

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you !!!

Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. :biggthump