Learning to Carve without wheels

[SlalomSkater87]

Hey all

So I've been longboard skating and doing slalom skateboard racing for a few years now and this winter I've decided I want to learn to hard boot. I'm really stoked and I was hoping some of you guys can give me some advice. In your experience:how does carving compare to pumping and skating? Are there habits or motions I should try to keep or make sure I avoid?

I know most people go from snow to pavement, I'm trying the other way around.

[boarderboy]

WaveChaser, WillyWhit, Gecko, et al., will really set you straight

Big Edit Sorry, I forgot CHUBZ!!

Stand by...

[KingCrimson]

You're going to fit in here very well. :biggthump

Excellent thread ensues!

[Gecko]

Wavechaser (Rick Floyd) has raced competitively on both Snow and Pavement so I'm sure he will add to this. I on the other hand am a enthusiastic (read slow) amateur racer on pavement and have never raced on snow. The hips turned forward stance that most people use for Tight Slalom will serve you well on the snow. My stance slaloming is very similar to my hardboot stance, I would recommend setting up your snowboard with binding angles as close to you skating foor positions as posible it will help. Look for a board with a Side Cut Radius (SCR) in the 10-11m range since you say you like pumping, Anything smaller and you are likely to blow turns out instead of railing them. I consider a normal day hardboot snowboarding to be akin to GS/SGS skating/high speed carving (25-35mph), the turns are there only to stretch you out over the hill and make it slower than riding a Downhill board. That said I have skated DH with Karl Floitgraf him on a GSboard and me on my drop through (7-8" of wheel base difference). He had no issues staying with us all day

[Sinecure]

Where are you located slalom?

[SlalomSkater87]

Where are you located slalom?
Greensboro NC during the semesters, Boston MA for a month, starting next week. Assuming I can write all these papers and pass all these finals.


Gecko, that Floitgraf guy sounds fast. :cool: :rolleyes:

[wavechaser]

Greensboro NC during the semesters, Boston MA for a month, starting next week. Assuming I can write all these papers and pass all these finals.


Gecko, that Floitgraf guy sounds fast. :cool: :rolleyes:

Floitgraf is slow...I know him...couldn't get out of the way of a frickin turtle. Don't take any advice from him SlalomSkater87 - it'll have you talkin' to yourself.

-RF

[SlalomSkater87]

thanks for all the great advice Rick. :P

[wavechaser]

thanks for all the great advice Rick. :P

NP bro...don't want you to get involved with a BAD ELEMENT!! We don't have weasels and sausage kings in snowboarding. ;-)

first lesson...

THIS body position is GOOd on snow...

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/11/50/54/14/img_5616.jpg

...and THIS one is not...

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/11/50/54/14/img_5613.jpg

...no knock on Seb, he's doin' it right for skating...but we don't cross hands/arms over on snow.

[boarderboy]

I feel OK about putting forth my .02 from the land of Terminal InterMediocrity...

First skate(board)ed in the mid '60's - (yes that's the mid 1960's) - just a couple years' removed from the 2x4's with split, metal roller skates attached. Think our most durable wheels were some kinda plastic with bits of crushed walnut shells in em. Polyurethane came much later, I believe ... ?

Fast forward almost 50 years, and I'm now a 61-year-old guy with a 12-year-old son (don't ask.) I sort of longboard, while my son mostly RipStiks. I weigh too much to try his Ripper, but I suspect traditional boarding is a much better trainer for hardbooting.

Due to chronic foot injury, I now wear mid-ankle hiking boots, even when I board. Not much sensation but lots of support. And I've noticed this - after 20+ years of hardboot snowboarding, I now skateboard with most of my considerable weight on my front, uninjured, foot. I suspect this would not have been the case pre-injury.

But tying this back in to snowboarding - after skateboarding, and surfing some, too - my biggest challenge in learning to snowboard was resisting the urge to "steer," and to over-correct with my rear foot. For me at least - and this applies more to packed, Ice Coast "groom" than to powder - hardbooting is a front foot kind of thing.

I'm hoping the Pro's will chime in on this - for training, you may want to try initiating, and maintaining, some skateboard carves utilizing more front-foot pressure than you might normally use. This could help prepare you for alpine boarding (?)

By the way, I got your email, and Raleigh is home. I'd be delighted to ride with you second semester - maybe at (little) Appalachian, near Boone, where, I think BOL'er MelloYellow hangs out occasionally. According to the yellow fellow, there are 8 or 9 N.C. hardbooters. There's another Forum Member - K2SlopeSurfer - a softbooter maybe (?) who also lives in Raleigh.

To my knowledge, formal hardboot lessons are nonexistent in the southeast. If you can't get true alpine lessons, you might want to try a softboot session with a good instructor - on a true powder or "packed powder" day. 1st few hours snowboarding are a pain in the ass on hardpack, and I mean that in the most literal way! So take your initial lesson in "ideal" conditions if you can!

I'll be happy to set you up with a loaner "E Deck" and some bindings if you can find some size-appropriate hardboots. Ski boots aren't great, but are better than nothing. Happy, also, to pass on what little alpine knowledge I may have on-slope.

Cheers and good luck to you!

[Gecko]

definitely don't do the swinging arms thing on the snow...I could never do that without swinging myself off course on pavement

[SlalomSkater87]

So I'm hearing a lot of helpful advice. Thanks guys

I've never hard booted before but I have been on a traditional snowboard and what I noticed is I had to use my back leg to turn more than I am used to (in Slalom skateboarding you initiate your turns with the front leg). I'm thinking hardbooting might be easier for me because I am used to turning with my front leg.

One thing that messed me up a lot in snowboarding is how much I am used to using my ankles for quick snaps. It's just instinct, but ever time I do that I would catch an edge and slam. Can that be useful or should I just teach myself to keep my ankles tight.

Boarderboy, I should get plenty of experience in New England over the break so I shouldn't need to find a lesson in NC. I don't have access to a car in NC so if your ever going up and have a little extra space I'm right on your way (5 minutes off 40) in GSO. I'd love to come a long!!

[KingCrimson]

You will find in the earlier stages of hardbooting, there is no turning going on. Your experience with snowboarding involves kicking the tail around and doing pivot turns. That's not what 99% of hardbooters do. Carving on an alpine deck is about setting the edge on the board, and letting it haul you around the turn. I don't know anything about slalom snowboard technique, but you're obviously going to have to get the basics of freecarving down. I think your image of hardbooting is slightly off, you're not going to be able to replicate slalom skateboarding on snow, it's just different. However, you will have an excellent compliment to slalom skateboarding, and you'll be able to have your carve crave filled year round.

If you try to actively gyrate on a hardboot board the same way you do on a slalom deck, you'll end up trying to goose the board out of its carve, skidding and blowing your speed at best. Have you read the welcome center articles? The Norm technique, written by Jack Michaud will really give you a good idea why hardbooting is so different from slalom skating.

First day you hardboot, if you don't have help..there's only one thing I can say from experience

BEND THE KNEES

As a slalom skater, you already know this. It won't feel the same in hardboots, force it. Don't get ski boots. Been there, done that, went against most of the advice. Makes knee bending way too hard. Hardboots, and only hardboots will let you bend your knees as they need to be. If you have to, buy the $120 Burton Factory Prime that everyone rags on. Spend your money on boots.
Links of interest

The Norm - http://bomberonline.com/articles/feel_the_carve.cfm

Good video by BOL's own Snowytom - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUsKsFufXUQ

[boarderboy]

email me when you get back into town.

This season, as in most, my trips will be determined by the following equation,

weather + $$ = boarding days.

Will definitely try to make a trip work. And I'm all too familiar with I-40 and GSO. ...

cheers, and take a good, formal hardbooting lesson in New England if you get the chance!

BB

[wavechaser]

One thing that messed me up a lot in snowboarding is how much I am used to using my ankles for quick snaps. It's just instinct, but ever time I do that I would catch an edge and slam. Can that be useful or should I just teach myself to keep my ankles tight.

Karl - hardboots will cure the flexed ankles thing. Let me know if you head to VT when you are home. I don't have any extra boots, but could set you up with a plate binding board for a day.

[Gecko]

didn't realize that was you....Karl...howz life in the south? If you didn't pick up else ware I broke my ankle this fall and am just being allowed back onto a skate board (and that's a fight) now, Snowboarding is a maybe for Feb/Mar BTW that day at Durfee Hill Road will always stand out for me as just how fast a Slalom board will go...

[wavechaser]

didn't realize that was you....Karl...howz life in the south? If you didn't pick up else ware I broke my ankle this fall and am just being allowed back onto a skate board (and that's a fight) now, Snowboarding is a maybe for Feb/Mar BTW that day at Durfee Hill Road will always stand out for me as just how fast a Slalom board will go...

Thatz why I said above ... "Floitgraf is slow...I know him...couldn't get out of the way of a frickin turtle. Don't take any advice from him SlalomSkater87 - it'll have you talkin' to yourself."

If we eventually get him to his first snowboard race I'm makin' sure the start ramp is super steep with a short tranny. :-)

-RF

[wavechaser]

K - don't know your foot size but these boots just got listed...great deal!

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22866

[Gecko]

Thatz why I said above ... "Floitgraf is slow...I know him...couldn't get out of the way of a frickin turtle.

I've been a bit distracted with a BIG job interview...it wasn't until after wards that realized the sarcasm in your post

[SlalomSkater87]

didn't realize that was you....Karl...howz life in the south? If you didn't pick up else ware I broke my ankle this fall and am just being allowed back onto a skate board (and that's a fight) now, Snowboarding is a maybe for Feb/Mar BTW that day at Durfee Hill Road will always stand out for me as just how fast a Slalom board will go...



hey man

All is well, I've been skating a lot. Just turned pro in slalom. I have a handful of big papers to write this weekend and then I come home which is why I've been thinking about hardbooting alot.

Ankle sounds rough man, I know how it is. Wish you the best in getting better.


If we eventually get him to his first snowboard race I'm makin' sure the start ramp is super steep with a short tranny. :-)

-RF
I guess I should change the name of the thread to "pay back's a bitch".

[Gecko]

hopefully I'll be skating my way back into shape...I lost nearly 4 seconds on a set course from the break

[willywhit]

I was just chatting with Karl aka slalomskater and the dude is now PRO ! He'll be racing against the big guys next season.
Gotta give some propers to Gilmour here for getting KArl and Bryan "Weasel" among some other boston kids to the next level of cone wiggling.
Karl will be carving trenches in no time.
and Karl, thanks for leaving those cones with Ken:biggthump

quik vid from antrim nh 2007, JG calling the race

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[wavechaser]

Willy - sweet photo of Me and Karl in 2007 at Antrim! I learned a lot chasing him...maybe too much ;), got him twice this year in GS. I'm sure I'll help him out on snow and then he'll return the favor some time!!

[wavechaser]

I guess I should change the name of the thread to "pay back's a bitch".

Yo - here's some payback for ya lad...

Go to www.raceboarders.com, click the EBAY button at the top (save the search if you want)...brings up most gear on ebay.

-RF

[wavechaser]

K - here are some carving boot and binding deals on the bay...don't know your mondo size, but check the boots anyway...

(grab these if you can - go about $150 max) http://cgi.ebay.com/Burton-Race-bindings_W0QQitemZ110319497995

(if either of these boots fit you, grab 'em - again about $150 max...got mine for $80) http://cgi.ebay.com/Burton-Reactor-Hardboots-Brand-NEW-27-5_W0QQitemZ120342826561

http://cgi.ebay.com/Burton-Reactor-Hardboots-Brand-NEW-27-0_W0QQitemZ120342829027

http://cgi.ebay.com/Burton-Race-Plate-Bindings-Alpine-Carving_W0QQitemZ140286900072

http://cgi.ebay.com/Burton-Race-Plate-Bindings-Alpine-Carving_W0QQitemZ140286898559

[willywhit]

Willy - sweet photo of Me and Karl in 2007 at Antrim! I learned a lot chasing him...maybe too much ;), got him twice this year in GS. I'm sure I'll help him out on snow and then he'll return the favor some time!!

ya, Karl's a great kid and a welcome addition to the carving community.

these kids today....I tell ya:rolleyes:

[SlalomSkater87]

Last Slalom run of 2008!

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Now bring on the snow!!!!!

[Gleb]

I'll be taking karl out on a day of carving asap. I already told him that he should try out his softies on my oxygen bx.

Then probably move up to hard boots on my ultra prime. No need buying boards, I got plenty I can loan for the season, and if you break em, what ever. I also have plenty of burton race plates.

Karl, I can't find the heels for my boots I was gonna give you. The boots are pretty beat and I'm not sure if they'll fit you. I'm a size 10.5 and a mondo 28 or so. It wouldn't be worth buying heels for them, so I recommend just buying cheap ones. Like rick said, $150 max.

good luck with finals and papers.

[willywhit]

karl,
post that one of you and Migs. I dunno how to post facebook videos.

[SlalomSkater87]

Forecast for monday- sunny 58. If anyone can manage to come out Gleb and I will be at the arboretum in the afternoon. Should be a good session if you can make it. :biggthump free coaching/instruction!

[wavechaser]

Forecast for monday- sunny 58. If anyone can manage to come out Gleb and I will be at the arboretum in the afternoon. Should be a good session if you can make it. :biggthump free coaching/instruction!

Gleb and Karl - let me know if you guys head north to hit the snow...I'll try to join you if I can.

Putting WR on the snow this weekend!

-RF

[SlalomSkater87]

Got on hard boots for the first time today. I got to ride Gleb's Coiler. We rode at Loon all day in near white out conditions. There was so much fresh powder! It was really incredible.

My first impressions are that I'm impressed with how much speed you pick up on the alpine set up and how much easier it is to initiate carves. The slalom skateboarding balance is helping me A LOT. I love throwing my hip into the carves as if I was going over for some offsets in slalom skateboarding. Hardbooting is crazy awesome. Can't wait for my next session. :biggthump

[wavechaser]

Sweet! That's two slalom skaters on carving boards on the same weekend! WR and I rode Bolton Saturday and Sugarbush yesterday. He's getting it really quickly.

What an amazing snow weekend. We had 12-15 of the most fluffy buttery snow you can get in the east.

Wentzle said the same thing - he was amazed at the acceleration as soon as you point your deck down the hill.

Now if we can just get more snowboard carvers to try skate slalom!

-RF

[Gleb]

Karl carving

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Original Video (http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=264tk50&s=5) - More videos at TinyPic (http://tinypic.com)

[willywhit]

that gave me motion sickness :freak3:
gleb, how was the party ?

[SlalomSkater87]

Bad news... I was coming down an icey trail at sunday river on friday when I got cut off by a skier hit his skis and flew into a fence. Came off the mountain and I knew I sprained my ankle, I went the hospital today I find out I fractured my fibula! Same leg as I injured years back in a car accident while skating. No boards for a couple months....

2009.... yay.:eek:

[boarderboy]

We'll have to get up to Appalachian for a day when MelloYello is ripping! (I've never met the guy, but am determined to confirm that BOL'ers actually exist outside the (e)therial)

Lemme know when you get back to Greensboro. No Excuses!!

Heal Fast!

BB

[wavechaser]

Bad news... I was coming down an icey trail at sunday river on friday when I got cut off by a skier hit his skis and flew into a fence. Came off the mountain and I knew I sprained my ankle, I went the hospital today I find out I fractured my fibula! Same leg as I injured years back in a car accident while skating. No boards for a couple months....

2009.... yay.:eek:

F in A Karl! That totally stinks. Just like on the highway, it's the other drivers that will kill you. I don't mind taking myslef out - but when someone else does it it pisses me off. Make sure you get plenty of sympathy from the ladies...play it for all it's worth brother!!

-RF

[willywhit]

vibes Karl :confused:
you could've just gone to wawa and gotten taken out just as easily

[Civ]

Hey Karl! Sorry to hear that you hurt your leg again.

But welcome to the world of alpine.

As you know, Im a formerly fast slalom racer, and I a relative noob to alpine.

There are many similarities to be sure, but try and approach the snow without think to much like a slalom racer, these boards seem to take a year to turn compared to a little ts board.

Sorry Im too late and missed the boat.

[wavechaser]

Hey Karl! Sorry to hear that you hurt your leg again.

But welcome to the world of alpine.

As you know, Im a formerly fast slalom racer, and I a relative noob to alpine.

There are many similarities to be sure, but try and approach the snow without think to much like a slalom racer, these boards seem to take a year to turn compared to a little ts board.

Sorry Im too late and missed the boat.

"formerly fast slalom racer"....uh....ahem...do I hear some sandbagging going on? ;)

It's so typical that Karl got taken out by a SKIER who was not following the rules...now tell me again who the dangers on the hill are?

Civ - I'll also take this chance to wish you and Shasta a happy, healthy and success-filled 2009! I'm not racing on snow this winter, so let me know if you guys make a VT trip again this year and I'll try to get out there with you.

-RF

[SlalomSkater87]

It's days like these I realize it could always be worse.
**** Skiers.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art4/0106091vail4a.jpg

Skier Suffers Exposure

Man left dangling upside down, pantsless after Vail lift mishap

JANUARY 6--In a bizarre incident that will surely lead to litigation (or an out-of-court settlement), a skier at Colorado's ritzy Vail resort was left dangling upside down and pantsless from a chairlift last Thursday morning. The January 1 mishap apparently occurred after the male skier, 48, and a child boarded a high-speed lift in Vail's Blue Sky Basin. It appears that the chairlift's fold-down seat was somehow not in the lowered position, which caused the man to partially fall through the resulting gap. His right ski got jammed in the ascending chairlift, and that kept him upended since his boot never dislodged from its binding. As seen in the photos on the following pages (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0106091vail2.html) (which were snapped by fellow skiers), the Skyline Express lift was stopped shortly after the pair's botched boarding resulted in the man dangling from the lift. The exposed skier was stuck for about 15 minutes before Vail personnel backed the lift up and successfully dislodged the unidentified man (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0106091vail3.html) from the four-seat chair. In a statement released this afternoon, Vail Resorts, which operates the ski area, reported that the skier was not injured after being "suspended for approximately seven minutes." The press release did not explain how the mishap occurred, only that "the man was caught on the chair." (5 pages)

[wavechaser]

That's funny - my co-workers sent me that story earlier today...poor guy, his ass is plastered all over the internet. He'll probably have his own TV show soon! :eek:

Might be time to change the name of that part of Vail to Blue MOON Basin!