"Perfect" toeside technique

[Jack Michaud]

I.M.O.

<a href='http://home.maine.rr.com/jjtmichaud/Karol_bells_carve.jpg' target='top'>Chris Karol</a>

[Shred Gruumer]

Dang! They just keep on coming! I know its on the other thread but im gonna rant till I get my speckled base! dammit!

And my pink neon Graphixs!

right said Shred

[Phil]

I guess so, if you're a "face the nose", and "power triangle" (knees together) kind of guy!:D :D

[Jack Michaud]

his knees look seperated to me, you can see the rear one is to the inside and down from the front one. And let's not forget this is Chris Karol.

[Pat Donnelly]

Maroon Bells in the background at Aspen Highlands - see ya next seaon!

[Phil]

Unlike the Burton 2X2 post (which was really not a joke Jack!), I was trying to be funny here by bringing up past arguments. I was not trying to offend anyone, and I am sorry if I did.

-Phil-

[GeoffV]

man we could only dream of snow being that soft on the ice coast. I guess the hard stuff makes us better riders right :D

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Phil
Unlike the Burton 2X2 post (which was really not a joke Jack!), I was trying to be funny here by bringing up past arguments. I was not trying to offend anyone, and I am sorry if I did.

-Phil-

No, I wasn't offended at all. But I didn't get the joke! I can see how the pic might be viewed that way.

[Neuffy]

He's not far enough over to the ground :P

...sorry, I had to. And I mean it...sorta...

[Kirk]

I remember watching this guy race way back when ('90, '91, even way before that!). One of the originals, at least from an American stand point, in alpine. Chris is a great guy and a great coach. Had the opportunity to ride with him and receive some good technique tips while in Aspen a couple of years ago. I'm certainly no pro racer or anything like it, but from what I can tell, the inside arm/shoulder is up as it should be (yes, racing technique - and no I don't want to start a "style" argument here). Actually trying to keep from touching snow - in fact, looks just high enough to clear the stubbie! I've personally seen this guy ride and I know that he's is perfectly capable of laying out just about any type of carve one can think of. Good pic, Jack.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by Tim Tuthill
Jack: The guy is very good. But the inside arm looks out of whack. Not unlike the racers in the 95 Pure Carve video. Good riders, but poor carve form. I was on the mount with Terry English last weekend and he lays it out as well if not better than the extreme carve guys and he is at 60 deg on a Hot Blast 172

Tim, "laying it out" is far from perfect technique, it is a stunt we do for fun when conditions allow. There's nothing wrong with Karol's arm. Keep in mind you're talking about a guy who was snowboarding during the Carter administration.

[Tim Kienitz]

Tim,
Too bad I missed you guy's last weekend. I chose to go to Mammoth instead of June.
Yes, Terry is a great rider (the best I have the privilege to ride with) but I don't think his current laid out style is any better than Karols style (at least this is what I am telling myself because my current style emulates Karol's). I've seen video's of Terry's style in the "90s and it was more like Karol's (more efficient and conservative) and now it has evolved into a more flashy and expressive laid out style. In both styles the shoulders are level with the pitch and in both styles the awesome sensation of a non sliding carved turn is felt.
Both styles are great and at higher levels of riding, each is just a matter of preference.
Tim

[Tim Tuthill]

Tim: Hows the leg? Terry told me you hurt it a few weeks ago. I rode Mammoth in the am both days and then went to June. No one there, we had it all to ourselves. The groom was real good. I will come back next week for a few days, may stay over the weekend. It all depends on the snow. Se ya Tim

[Phil]

I was just going to stay out of this since my first two posts did not go over well. (disclaimer: they were on April fool's day)

One thing about pictures is that they are a frozen moment in time where you only get a small glimpse of what someone is doing. For example, if you had a picture of someone doing a laid out backflip, it is possible to get the picture to look like they are diving onto their head. Anywho, my point is that this is a cool picture, and I have no doubt that Chris Karol is the stomper, but to say that there are problems with his riding, or with this turn because of the picture is somewhat silly. Of course, that would mean that the converse is true as well: to say that he is a great rider, or that this was a great turn would not be an obvious conclusion. We don't know what he was doing or what he was responding to. A picture can be used as an illustration for techniques, but you would not want to go much further than that. You need video to go further.

Jack,
My suggestion to you would be to post this or any picture followed by a statement of what you see the rider doing right, or doing well for certain techniques. That way, no one can argue using different styles as their foundation for argument. After all, at this point in his turn, he does not seem to be Eurocarving, but that most likely was not his intent. Then again, maybe he laid it out a half second later. We don't know, because it is only a picture.

[Tim Kienitz]

Hi Tim,
The ankle's better (at least good enough to ride on). I don't like the current slushy conditions but it's a lot easier on my ankle. From your description of June, conditions sound better than I thought so I'll definitely be at June next time and hopefully I'll see you guys there.

Tim

[Sean]

Although it is just a point in time I think you can see alot of great things happening in this pic.

For one thing, Chris is showing really solid alignment between his upper and lower body. There is a nice strong angle at the hip so he can maintain pressure on his toeside edge throughout the entire turn. Key in on his shoulders- level to the slope- and note the strong tall stance. If he was to just simply bend over at the waist and drive his torso to the ground he wouldn't be able to create as much edgeset and stay balanced on that edge as well as he is. The pic doesn't show it well but he does have separation between his knees as evidenced by his lower open back leg. The next thing that stands out is the fact that he is looking ahead into his next turn as opposed to right down at the nose. This is exactly the reason we teach racers to look ahead at the next gate- develops timing and fluidity.

The biggest impression I get from the pic is that he seems to be in a very poised and powerful position, one from which he can make a number of moves from (retraction, up/down unweight, eurocarve...) It would have been great to see the whole sequence but I would bet a sixer it was very solid.

-Sean

[Jack Michaud]

All true, agreed. I am giving Karol the benefit of the doubt because, well, he's Chris Karol. I am assuming a lot to post the picture, 1, that this picture represents the whole turn well, which it very well may, and 2, that people know who he is. If anyone doesn't know, he's a true veteran, among the ranks of Mark Heingartner, Andy Coghlan, etc, and a product of the ice coast.

Why I think it's "perfect" technique. I didn't go into this at first because I wanted to see if anyone was interested. Keep in mind there is a difference between technique and style. Here ya go.

His hips are down and in and facing I'd say about 1 o'clock (nose of board = 12). His edge angle is a result of his hips being dropped into the carve.

His shoulders and head are level - this improves balance. He is not bending at the waist towards his toeside edge. He is not reaching for the snow. His upper body is stacked over his c.o.g. It is not folded over the nose of the board. This also improves balance. This position is just generally "natural".

He is poised and ready for anything, he can absorb terrain with his knees and ankles while keeping a quiet upper body. In this position all options are open to him. He could draw the carve out and maybe lay one out, or he could snap a quick cross-under transition from the waist down and instantly be in good heelside position.

When you aren't rotated towards the toeside edge, you can make quick edge changes with the ankles and knees, and be in heelside position in much less time. Also, when you are turned towards the toeside edge, you are more prone to bend at the waist and reach for the snow if your balance is disturbed.

Now of course there are plenty of people who don't ride like this, and go for more style. They can have a lot of fun and look great, and make their style work very well - in many cases just as well. That is fabulous, but it is irrelevant. My point is that someone learning to carve should try to emulate perfect technique rather than cool style.

I said in another thread that learning to carve is like learning a musical instrument. It is possible to get very good and have a lot of fun relatively quickly by learning the basics and then just learning to play songs. But true mastery comes from learning the theory first and developing your own style second.
-Jack

[jason_watkins]

Limitations of looking at a single picture understood, anyone want to put forward a similar example of a "perfect" heelside?

[Pepe Le Pew]

I'm totally amazed when I see folks like Sean (or any SnowPerformance coach for that matter) or Jack getting so much out of one picture...

Jack, it's not only interesting, it's very helpful.

I felt pretty good about the top picture at:
Couple toeside pics (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?threadid=1998)

Now, from the point by point explanation, I can see that there may be some "reaching for the snow" and some "folding above the nose". I guess I'll call that my style :D
Did I miss anything?

Eric

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by jason_watkins
...anyone want to put forward a similar example of a "perfect" heelside?

How about this one:
<img src="http://www.bomberonline.com/images/photo_carver.jpg">

[Jack Michaud]

pretty much the same analysis applies.

[Jack Michaud]

everybody knows that goofy-footers carve more perfectly.

[gdboytyler]

Why are the photos of the perfect carves all on flat? Do all these masters lose their form when the going gets steep?

Any intermediate desk jockey can get good form on a cruiser run.

Anyone have photos/video of the perfect carve on some steep slopes?

[Hans]

Originally posted by gdboytyler
Why are the photos of the perfect carves all on flat? Do all these masters lose their form when the going gets steep?

Any intermediate desk jockey can get good form on a cruiser run.

Anyone have photos/video of the perfect carve on some steep slopes?

Well, you can look at this site: ZINAL ECS 2004 ECCARVING.
These ones are steep I can tell you.
http://www.okao.com/gallery/album06

Greets, Hans.

[knoch]

CMC you think very highly of yourself, maybe you should keep it to yourself, just my opinion...

[Phil]

Let the ball-swinging contest begin!

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Phil
Let the ball-swinging contest begin!

Somebody pass the popcorn! Where's my drink? (munchmunchmunchslurp...)

T.

[cmc]

You asked for a perfect heelside..you got it. not into playing typing wars anymore.
my next years pass was bought today, HAHA. If you have the skills, if you have the baddest technique, if you have the best style, even if you have a bad attitude like me, then PLEASE, COME RIDE WITH ME AND SHOW ME YOUR STUFF!!, Ill buy your pass..really. Otherwise, typing **** behind a keyboard dont make you a better rider, come prove it..the invitation is there...it is that simple. I already know my attitude sucks, you want to challenge my riding skills? THEN STEP FORWARD. :o

[knoch]

where are you from? i'd love to come ride with you sometime, maybe it'll give me a chance to get out of michigan. can't say i'm any good at hardbootin, but i do enjoy it, and a good laugh at those who think they are the best is always fun too

[D-Sub]

damn. nice pics.

yours too, curt. thats about as compact as one could get. Ill never, ever be able to pack myself into that small a package I dont think

[Speed Demon]

Hey dalv those pics are pretty sweet, but i think hans sent me to a nice link. Those pics are awesome. Alright well I just need to work on my actual alpining now so im getting ready for next season maybe once later this season, ok im done.
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[cmc]

"Ill never, ever be able to pack myself into that small a package I dont think"

the first step into doing it...proving to your self that it can be done. Negative thinking will give you negative results.

"

[D-Sub]

yeah, I hear ya...

Im almost 6'3" and pretty thick tho...Ive just never been able to get that compact

remember when burton ran that ad of Victoria Jealouse back in what...94? some time around then?

round that time I started tryin to get myself all balled up like that and I ended up takin some HUGE slams!

:)

[Speed Demon]

In 94...lets see i was only 5 at the time and was no where near snowboarding (started all mountain on freestyle at 9) so I dont recall anything about that but I can kind of see what your saying.

Ohh yah who is Victoria Jealouse????:D :p :confused:
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[thomas_m]

Originally posted by Speed Demon

Ohh yah who is Victoria Jealouse????:D :p :confused:

All round rider extraordinaire but she's too old for you bro:

http://www.tetongravity.com/exposed/jealouse.html

C.

[D-Sub]

Originally posted by Speed Demon
In 94...lets see i was only 5 at the time and was no where near snowboarding (started all mountain on freestyle at 9) so I dont recall anything about that but I can kind of see what your saying.

Ohh yah who is Victoria Jealouse????:D :p :confused:

you seriously dont know who she is? thats kinda sad really.

burton ran an ad with a pic of her carving. it was gorgeous. I believe Jamie Lynn used it on one of his LibTech boards as the base graphics after that?

anyone got a link to that pic?

[Speed Demon]

Nope sorry i dont know who she is, but now i would like to know so that would be great if someone did have a link to that.
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[D-Sub]

I couldnt find it, but theres plenty of info about her online

including a photo shoot for maxim...kinda disappointing really (she's definitely a good looking woman but its her riding that matters, not her body)

dunno if burton would have ad archives or somethin

[Neil Gendzwill]

I never knew she did a shoot for Maxim - I always thought she kinda shied away from using her looks, most of her ads for Burton had her half-hidden under her toque or whatever.

Anyways, if you look halfway down the page in this thread (http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1192&perpage=30&highlight=jealouse&pagenumber=2) you'll see a scan I did of one of her ads. She used to rock the hardboots pretty good, now she's all Ms Extreme Thang.

And, yes, she's Canadian.

[D-Sub]

thats the one! ****in ROCKING!

that chick is throwin as much style as any of the dudes here.

anyway, yeah, she did maxim. kinda a bummer, but hey whatever it takes to get a paycheck, right?

[D-Sub]

damn I wish I had the original photo used in that ad

[Pre School Rider]

Find one of these vids; TB 4,TB 5,TB 6,TB 7,and you'll find Ms. Jealouse in there just Rippin' It Up.She carves like Vin wishes he could,almost better in softies than CMC is on plates... truly one of the smoothest ,funnest to watch riders out there!

[Neil Gendzwill]

OK, so she sold out and I'm a bad man for looking here (http://www.maximonline.com/sports/girls_of_extreme_sports/jealouse.html).

[nekdut]

I was just browsing bomber and noticed this:

http://www.bomberonline.com/images/jja1.jpg

Hows that for a perfect toeside! And look at the edge angle Jasey's at!!! :eek:

:D

[gdboytyler]

Originally posted by nekdut
I was just browsing bomber and noticed this:

http://www.bomberonline.com/images/jja1.jpg

Hows that for a perfect toeside! And look at the edge angle Jasey's at!!! :eek:

:D

He's almost good enough to touch the snow:D

[boostertwo]

Perhaps it's not perfect toeside technique on a carving board, but it affords lots of opportunities for repetition--and improvement!

[Speed Demon]

hehe that little guy is pretty cool...he's not to bad...lol:p
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