Madd 170 vs Swoard?

[Hotmop]

I know this might be comparing apples and oranges, but I was wondering if anyone has had a chance to ride both the Swoard and the new Madd 170.

Before riding the Madd 170 at the ECES I was thinking of buying a Swoard. The Swiss concept is a new and maybe radical one. But the idea of maximizing leverage seems to make sense to me. And I have big feet.

After learning some things from Eric at SugerLoaf and applying them to the Madd, I finally got some positive feedback from a board.

Was anyone blown away by the Swoard? How many happy customers out there?

[nils]

Hotmop,
I have seen and tested the flex of a Madd 158 at fin's place, and was totally astounished by its stiffness, springyness. It is a very different board, and I wish I could have test ridden it because i'm intrigued about that board...
My big question about them is how can they be so grippy ( seems the main quality of them) and at the same time efficient on hard pack. We at Swoard have developped a different philosophy which is softer flex on the hard snow. Someone can explain how the grip (east coast hard ice) works on such a stiff flex..?

Then concerning the differences in shapes > they are very different because the madd is made to grip in freecarve and gates, where our board is more to grip effortlessly in freecarving ( and "extremecarving") not trying to gain seconds in edge change. From what I have seen with the madd, it is surely a more demanding board, physically asking more than the Swoard. Must be fun to ride in the morning when your legs are still like fresh!

Both are for different riding techniques, I am sure you can ride either with either technique thu..What would be interesting is having feedback from guys that tested both ( maybe someone did at the ECES?)
As for feedback on the Swoard, there was a topic here on the subject a few weeks ago :) same goes for the Madd (seems some people make pilgrimages and burn candles for it :)

Nils

[Jack Michaud]

I got the impression that the Madd's were softer lengthwise, but stiff torsionally. They are much thinner than any other board I saw at the ECES demo tent.

I also felt that the boards were lively and playful, yet at the same time they did not chatter unless I did something wrong. Put all that together, and you have a board that will easily bend into an arc on hard snow, but that will also have great grip and response.
-Jack

[Hotmop]

Curt, I'm sure your conclusions are not far off. Even though I'm not an aggressive rider, I want to be. And I do want a board that will keep up. I started carving in the early 90's but I just don't keep up the fitness that I think makes a good groove.

I'm also a big bloke (at 6'4" 220lbs) and soft boards kinda worry me. Almost every board gives way under the G-force of my frame pushing on it. But the Swoard does come in different stiffness.

My worn-out Madd 158 is my basis of comparison. I'm leaning toward the Madd 170 due to that performance familiarity, the lower cost, and the support around here (New England).

Still love to hear a word from someone that has used both sticks.

[kjl]

Originally posted by cmc
swoard= static rider
Madd = agressive ripper
The Swoards remind me of the older Pure carve maverics, at least they sort of look like that. I have not ridden a Swoard, spoke to some that did..Ill keep me my mouth shut....The Swoard is no comparison to the madd on East coast (Sugarloaf conditions.)

The good Swoard riders (the EC guys and some others) are anything but static.

Maybe
swoard = fluid rider
madd = powerful rider
?

I haven't really ridden Swoards on ice (I'm in Tahoe), and in any case I suck on ice anyways and would not be able to make a judgment anyways. I will say, though, that the Swoard is a very lively board. I like to get airborne on edge transitions and dive into each turn with lots of power, which I think most people would call aggressive riding, and the Swoard definitely lets me do that.

Jack, if the Madd is soft lengthwise and torsionally stiff, then that is exactly the same board philosophy that the Swoard guys are doing. They have a fairly soft board with lots of torsional rigidity, which to me translates into a really maneuverable board which still holds an edge when you want it to.

[underdog]

hey hotmop-i gotcha beat 6'0 235....im a downright slob. rode the 170 madd at eces....definately not as accomplished as these other guys(even though ive been doin it 10yrs) but that edge would not let go and i tried it slow, in a class, and fast, pointing down the fall line cuz i cant carve steeps(yet). but bombing down a hill and then really engaging an edge, it just HELD....and im pushing gravity about the same as you. havent rode a swoard but hope this helps, im puttin one in my quiver.
3\16\04 1:42pm-snowin like a banshee in buffalo ny. yay.

[Hotmop]

Agreed. As I began this, I know full well it's almost an illogical question.

Nils' input on the Swoard was great. Curt's clarifying the difference is spot on.

I just wish Curt could send Nils a Madd and Nils could send Curt a Swoard.

Peace,
Matt

[BDZal]

As for longitudinal stiffness affecting ice performance... I'm not so sure that the traditional wisdom is accurate in all cases. My BS 180 is longitudinally the stiffest board I've ever flexed (besides some other BS's, and I'd bet some of those Donek and Coiler custom jobs are REALLY stiff), but it also holds better on hard snow than any board I've ridden. I only weigh 135 lbs so it should be way too stiff for me on "ice" as we know it here in Colorado (it does happen occasionally!). Is a softer longitudinal flex more for control than grip? Ease of use? I do have to ride it pretty aggressively, and it took me a little while to get the strength... Perhaps this board compensates control-wise with the tail taper - i.e. with that much taper (something like 1.5 cm) you can really feel the nose hook up. It responds well to double-pumping if I need to go tighter in the middle of a turn. I'll post a full review in a couple of weeks after I ride it with a flat base for the first time. I bought it used a year ago and never got around to getting a grind until I noticed it is pretty base-high. Whoever was riding this thing before me must've been railing the s*%t out of it.

[Hotmop]

Something I did not take seriously until this past week at ECES. Make sure you get a quality grind!

I discovered that the past years of grinds were done far too aggressively on my Madd 158. I don't ride all that hard and didn't even ride it for the last 2 years (went to the darkside of freestyle). Now the base and edges are so thin that the embedded edge tabs are starting to pop base material off the board. Kinda looks like it is unzipping along the edge.

Considering the Madd has one of the hardest bases out there, I doubt I wore it off.

I blindly trusted the various shops that have done grinds for me and that now shows as a costly mistake. Make sure they know what they are doing.

[BDZal]

I'll second that about getting a quality grind. I got one done on my Donek 175 a couple of years back, very first grind on that board, and they took the base down to almost nothing. I should've inspected the edges before and after to see how much they took off, as I didn't notice until a year later when I got a core shot. Luckily Sean Martin directed me to a good shop (Edge Works), and they did a beautiful structure without taking even a noticeable amount off. Unfortunately the lifespan of the board is now a few years shorter. Stay away from Applewood Ski if you need tuning in the Denver area. The other board I took there at the same time came back so hairy it was like velcro. Base-high = convex ; edge-high = concave, correct? I might have that mixed up.

[Maciek]

So here comes my old question of getting quality tunning vs. local store tunning that might depend on your area (knowledge and experience of folks).

I see that I was blamed for lack of those skills and equipment, but then many people could be... including bad professionals in tuning shops.

That's a proof that you need a good store to tune your equipment right way so, it lasts years and rides properly.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by nils
Hotmop,
I have seen and tested the flex of a Madd 158 at fin's place, and was totally astounished by its stiffness, springyness. It is a very different board, and I wish I could have test ridden it because i'm intrigued about that board...
My big question about them is how can they be so grippy ( seems the main quality of them) and at the same time efficient on hard pack. We at Swoard have developped a different philosophy which is softer flex on the hard snow. Someone can explain how the grip (east coast hard ice) works on such a stiff flex..?

Then concerning the differences in shapes > they are very different because the madd is made to grip in freecarve and gates, where our board is more to grip effortlessly in freecarving ( and "extremecarving") not trying to gain seconds in edge change. From what I have seen with the madd, it is surely a more demanding board, physically asking more than the Swoard. Must be fun to ride in the morning when your legs are still like fresh!

Both are for different riding techniques, I am sure you can ride either with either technique thu..What would be interesting is having feedback from guys that tested both ( maybe someone did at the ECES?)
As for feedback on the Swoard, there was a topic here on the subject a few weeks ago :) same goes for the Madd (seems some people make pilgrimages and burn candles for it :)

Nils


Nils,

Madd is not for gaining seconds (even in edge change despite the fact it is so narrow). Perhaps it was designed for racing, but it is not the best board for racing. It is freecarving board. Today's race course requires rather wider and damper boards. They may not be like Swoards, but they will not be like Madds either.

I tried Madd 158 which seemed to be a good board for slalom. In fact it is not. It is way too narrow board for many heavier/a bit bigger racers (myself at 185lbs/84kg included) and way too stiff for smaller racers who could appreciate a narrow board.

Madd is a great carving board for quite a few conditions and I would bet that East Coast of the USA is one place that it rides the best.

For racing, it actually has too much edgehold as you need speed control by washing out the board occasionally which is almost impossible on Madd 158.

The width of the baord does not allow for knee action and at higher stance angles you need to balance with your hips which is way slower and probably would not work so well when gates and ruts on course demand quick direction adjustments.


Also I noticed some interesting trend in todays carving/racing world: many freecarve boards can be stiffer than race boards. That's from my experience, some talks with folks and recent study on Donek website that as first place in the world published precise stiffness index (not just fancy graph and personal impression by riders).

So I get more and more to a question: are freecarvers getting so advanced in their domain that they need more demanding boards than racers?

My impression is that many ECES folks prove that it is the case.

I do not need that kind of board as Madd gave me a shot in my lower legs and I could not position myself at right angles to preassure the edge (stance angles too high on that narrow board).

To be honest, I would get Madd for myself only if it was about 0.5-1 inch wider board. But then I would not ride it on every day basis as it is quite stiff and it requires particular style of carving mastered for example by CMC (Curt). This guy looks as if he was born on that board and riding it is just a natural thing like sleeping or eating.

[Jack Michaud]

Originally posted by BDZal
As for longitudinal stiffness affecting ice performance... I'm not so sure that the traditional wisdom is accurate in all cases. My BS 180 is longitudinally the stiffest board I've ever flexed (besides some other BS's, and I'd bet some of those Donek and Coiler custom jobs are REALLY stiff), but it also holds better on hard snow than any board I've ridden. I only weigh 135 lbs so it should be way too stiff for me on "ice" as we know it here in Colorado (it does happen occasionally!). Is a softer longitudinal flex more for control than grip? Ease of use? I do have to ride it pretty aggressively, and it took me a little while to get the strength...

Trust me, ice does not happen in Colorado! :D Well, the last time I was there I heard people complaining about "ice" and I was having the time of my life.

I think ice performance depends on many things. Freecarving on ice, you want to get your turn done as soon as possible so as to spend little time in the fall line and to control speed. A softer board will be more willing to do this. But many soft boards also lack torsional stiffness. Without it, the board just twists out of the carve. The Madd makes up for this with the CF x-wing topsheet. That topsheet also improves vibration damping, another enemy of edge hold, by the fact that it has a different resonance than the rest of the board.

I also rode a Prior 181/13m board at the ECES that was also great on ice due I think in part to the tighter sidecut than I'm used to on my 186 (15m). I don't know if there's any rocket science going on inside that board, but it doesn't have a cf topsheet, but it did great. That board struck me as a great balance between long boards and short boards.
-Jack

[mirror70]

Jack,

I actually thought the Prior WCRs were the best boards in the tent. I rode the 163, 171, and 181 and loved them. Edge hold was incredible and the boards were all extremely stable in the turns, even when going through the afternoon chop.

What I found with the Donek FC171 (or maybe it was a 173?) was that [flame suit on] it rode just like my Factory Prime did when it was brand new. It wasn't as damped as the same-size Prior and turn-in wasn't as quick.

What I found with the Madd 170 was [super-ultra flame suit on] that it rode just like the FC171, but with better turn-in and slightly less chatter. The Prior, imo, still trounced it it every regard.

I think what people love so much about the Madd 158 is that it rides like the short board that it is. In the past two years, the "cool thing" to do on this message board was to go with a longer and longer board to get more edge hold at higher speeds. In the process, I think people forgot how much fun it is to ride a short turny board like the Madd 158. IMO, that board felt just like my 153cm Speedster SL but with less pop (which, again imo, is part of the fun of the shorter boards).

Am I the only one who thought these things?


With regard to the CF x-wing improving torsional rigidity, might I suggest that they try using either a satin weave or UD instead of a plain weave? UD would allow them to improve torsional rigidity with zero effect on the longitudinal flex. Another suggestion would be to either rotate the fabric or use [for instance] a 60º/0º weave so that the fibers run from the toe of one boot to the heel of the other. That would, in theory, move the weft closer to being in pure compression. Among other things, what would allow the matrix to act as a damper in a single plane rather than two. I know, I know - I should shut up now. :)

[mirror70]

While you were busy in the keilbasa-fest, I was secretly riding all of the boards in the demo tent as well as any board I could find on the racks by the lodge. I'm swift like a ninja so nobody noticed.

Ninjas are totally awesome and insane and sweet. Isn't that qualification enough? ;)

More seriously, yes, I am qualified to talk about designing for and fabrication of composites. Well, ACG seems to think so anyway.

[apocalypsem3]

is madd snowboards still in production? if yes, where can i find some information on them?

[mirror70]

Check the date on the pics. 'twas my first week riding plates and only my second season snowboarding.

I've come a long way since then.

[D-Sub]

either you two know each other or someone just spent way too much time trying to tear someone else down.

[NateW]

Ninjas have real ultimate power. (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)

[Jagger]

Ninjas kick ass!:D

[Maciek]

Originally posted by NateW
Ninjas have real ultimate power. (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)


They are whimps. They can't fight with pitch fork, tea spoon and pliers.

I can :)

I can also fight using cereal or powder sugar. You can do that too. Just learn to say loudly: "fast" with mouth full of it.

[Pepe Le Pew]

I had the opportunity to ride both at SES.
They are very different. I am not going to compare them but I can give my *personal* impressions:

Swoard 175: Nils recommended that I use the Hard flex model given my weight (210 pounds, 6'1"). I found the board to be too wide, forcing me to change my angles considerably (given my 27 boot size, from 60+ to less than 50 degrees), and making edge transitions on flat terrain feel weird.
It bevahed well on steeper slopes though and you don't have to worry about booting out (although it very rarely happens to me on skinnier boards anyway). I had experimented with extreme carving the previous day on a Donek 186 GS. I didn't really feel that the Swoard helped me with this technique.

Madd 170: I was concerned about the size at first but tried it anyway. It rides longer than it is. The last day at Copper we had pretty hard snow. My not so well-tuned F2 RS 182 couldn't handle it. I switched to the Coiler Pure Race 186 (probably my next purchase) then to the Madd 170. I didn't really notice that I lost 16cm of edge (although I was probably not going as fast since the sidecut is quite smaller on the Madd). It is very grippy, up to a point where it can be treacherous (I don't know how, but even with the board almost flat, skidding to get to a complete stop on hard stuff, the grip is such that I had to be careful not to catch the wrong edge). while on edge, I felt immediately comfortable, and found the board very predictable. It had the kind of sidecut I was looking for this year (to replace beat up Rossi Race 171) so I bought one of the demos!

Anyway, whatever your choice, I am sure you won't be disappointed...

Eric

[moxie]

For those of us who could not attend SES or ECEC, and contact info for Madd? w/s? or phone #?
Thanks

[John Gilmour]

Originally posted by Maciek
Nils,

Madd is not for gaining seconds (even in edge change despite the fact it is so narrow). Perhaps it was designed for racing, but it is not the best board for racing. It is freecarving board. Today's race course requires rather wider and damper boards. They may not be like Swoards, but they will not be like Madds either.

(reply- The Madd 158 is a race ready slalom board. Anton Pogue was formerly kicked off the US team and got back on the team by winning World Cups Slalom events on the 158- Adam Hoestetter (Sims Fila), Jeremy Jones (Rossignol) also used the 158 in World Cup Slalom events as well as the US Open. The 170 however should be characterized as either a "Consumer GS/freecarve or a Hardboot boardercross deck)



I tried Madd 158 which seemed to be a good board for slalom. In fact it is not. It is way too narrow board for many heavier/a bit bigger racers (myself at 185lbs/84kg included) and way too stiff for smaller racers who could appreciate a narrow board.


(reply- this would appear to be contradictory with both Adam Hoestetters weight (light about 155lbs) and Anton Pogue's size and weight (about 185))


Madd is a great carving board for quite a few conditions and I would bet that East Coast of the USA is one place that it rides the best.

(reply-narrow groomed trails with a few steep sections are where the versatility of this deck shines., I would prefer to ride the 170 out West (longer turns) and in Europe (mixed conditions)


For racing, it actually has too much edgehold as you need speed control by washing out the board occasionally which is almost impossible on Madd 158.

(reply- World Cup racers detuned the board to accommodate their preferences and snow conditions...it is far easier on race day to remove extra grip than create it)


The width of the baord does not allow for knee action and at higher stance angles you need to balance with your hips which is way slower and probably would not work so well when gates and ruts on course demand quick direction adjustments.

(reply- Again- Anton Pogues race results would appear to disagree with the above statement- my riding style would also likely differ with your assesment)



Also I noticed some interesting trend in todays carving/racing world: many freecarve boards can be stiffer than race boards. That's from my experience, some talks with folks and recent study on Donek website that as first place in the world published precise stiffness index (not just fancy graph and personal impression by riders).

So I get more and more to a question: are freecarvers getting so advanced in their domain that they need more demanding boards than racers?

(reply- freecarvers are most interested in holding an edge- racers will trade absolute edge hold for skid in order to shave critical hundreths off a course...the needs are not identical)


My impression is that many ECES folks prove that it is the case.

I do not need that kind of board as Madd gave me a shot in my lower legs and I could not position myself at right angles to preassure the edge (stance angles too high on that narrow board).

(reply- the type of conditions (loose granular) and terrain Maciek is accustomed to at his home mountain in New Jersey might lead to develop a novel style that will not work as effectively in steeper terrain. Also with such short vertical drop New Jersey's resorts likely do not promote good conditioning of his legs- I do not recall seeing his style of riding- but likely CMC's style of riding will translate to most hardpack terrain regardless of snowcondition or pitch or length of the hill - this low slung compressed over the edge type of riding is what we have developed these boards for- the thrill factor on Madd boards is very high. Yes.....at first....it can be a super quadricep burner, but like anything else you adjust. Your body condition improves and adapts. My legs just buzz like crazy at the end of the day and that puts a huge smile on my face the whole ride home...ain't life grand?)


To be honest, I would get Madd for myself only if it was about 0.5-1 inch wider board. But then I would not ride it on every day basis as it is quite stiff and it requires particular style of carving mastered for example by CMC (Curt). This guy looks as if he was born on that board and riding it is just a natural thing like sleeping or eating.

(I would not reccommend a Madd board for a rider like Maciek (based solely on his body angulation from the Avatar photo and the lack of others referencing his riding skills, I think a forgiving wider softer freecarve board in the 165cm length would be appropriate for the terrain and snow conditions likely anything over 170cm would be too much board for a New Jersey mountain snow, terrain and his current riding technique)

Really Smart riders ride what suits the terrain as well as their abilities, personal goals and style.

No so smart riders hop on a unfamiliar carving devices, three days later place high in the world championships and then foolishly celebrate by maching into a set of trees crippling themselves for the rest of the season.

[John Gilmour]

mirror,

Your comments are welcome, I like to hear what people have to say about our boards. Likely the FC171 is a better board for you and they type of riding you enjoy. I have yet to flex the reissue 170's and so I can't comment on how identical they are to the older ones. Ride the board that gives you the most fun. Some "competition boards" are not "fun" to ride at all. Our goal at Madd is to make competition level boards that still have a high fun factor and work over a wide range of either snow conditions....or turn radii.

I tuned a 170 for Anton Pogue for a Banked slalom at a US Open. He had never ridden the board before and took a single 500 foot vertical drop run to accustom himself to it. He went on to podium at the event.

As for the new glass orientation suggestions (I thank you for taking the time to suggest these- and your thoughts are very well organized) we tried several different types of glass and weaves and this is what worked out the best for us- though as newer materials emerge we hope to incorparate any new materials which give a noticeable improvement. Keep those ideas coming. much apppreciated. ;)


also thank you to the moderator who reformatted my other post to be more legible :)

to buy Madd boards call 617-504-3323

[willywhit]

If you ride the sissy snow, a Swoard may be your weapon of choice. The Madd 170 is one stiff, damp and snappy ginsu knife. Shaggy only let me ride her for an hour but MAN! the board rips thru ice like a SuperTack skate.Bankers making kiteboards now too.Look out bruce V. If you can pounce on a sled that weighs next to nuthin' ...get a MAdd 170. :mad:

[moxie]

umm, okay, so who is selling them?

[Hotmop]

moxie,
I sent you an email with Mike Banker's email address. Is your profile correct? With correct email address?

I will leave it to John Godman, Mike or Shaggy to post contact info. I don't want to put their addresses on and make them bigger victims of spam.

[nils]

Well you East coast guys might have not noticed that 95% of the world rides sissy good snow :). Who would want to ride ice anyway> not me!

More seriously, i haven't yet had any explanation besides that board is better than this one or vice versa.. My question was the following:
- Since we basically aknowledge that hard snow requires a softer flexed board, how come is the Madd ( that I found VERY stiff despite what Jack said...You'll find the Swoard is a chewing gum in comparison) a very good board on icy conditions.? How come is the edge not chattering on ice like it does on most hard boards..
Am not asking fabrication secrets here, but behaviour answers :)

thnx
Nils

[d b]

One of my guides in the alps once told me "there's no bad snow just bad riders" Hahhahaa send me one of each Il ride & tell all................:D

[bobdea]

mainly waist width and sidecut radius

when are we gonna see a Madd website

[Chris Houghton]

The originals were all 18 waists, the 158 just under 10m, the 170 a 13m and the 180 an 18m sidecut. At least that's what the buyer's guide from 1996 says.

[bobdea]

with my big feet I lose comfort below 19.5 and just cant ride anything below 19

[Peter Vu]

CMC, I read with interest your comment on "Swoard rider = static rider".

For the last year, I have been experimenting the EC technique and I found the push-pull (leg works) combined with rotation (upper body) to be very dynamic.

Actually, it's almost too dynamic for the out of shape and average carver guy that I am. :(

However, I am always in the quest to improve my "style".

Providing that I am doing push/pull + rotation, could you help me understand how I can be more "dynamic" ?
Or....
How do I switch from static rider to "aggressive ripper"? Maybe I don't spread out my arms enough but I can't see how this would improve the dynamics of a carve. Please help!

Thanks beforehand !!:)


Peter

[kjl]

Originally posted by cmc

swoard= static rider
Madd = agressive ripper

1) A static rider will not attack the hill,instead he/she will ride it very slight aggressive/laid back.


Not to revive this apparently religious war again, but the EC riders (Jacques/Patrice), who ostensibly ride the Swoard as it was meant to be ridden since they designed it to start with, are anything but static. Their hips and shoulders are more mobile than any other style of riding I have seen, from fully perpendicular to the board in heelside to fully parallel on toeside. Furthermore, every turn starts fully crouched, has an long extension phase while pointed down the fall line, and ends fully crouched again.

If anything, I would consider your CMC style to be static, as you are in a low, powerful stance all the time. Your upper body is always exactly perpendicular to the board, 2.5 feet above the ground with your arms outstretched like wings - the only difference between your heelside, toeside, and transition positions is the direction your legs poke out from your torso. Your angulation is always huge and your center of gravity low. If I could make my toesides look like yours, I'd probably stop washing out all the time.

I've seen videos of you, and personally I'd classify you as a very static, very aggressive rider.

Having ridden with Patrice for a few days at the SES, I'd classify him (and the other EC riders) as an extremely fluid+dynamic, very aggressive rider.


2) Get off the soft snow and come east

...getting a little tired of reading the whole "the Ice Coast gives you gigantic balls and CA/NV/OR/CO/WY/ID/MT/NM/BC/NZ/Swiss/French snow turns you into sissies" thing over and over again.

[willywhit]

I had an interesting talk the the Dominator Wax guy(Tamus?)at the US Open while waiting for my fresh graphite/carbon wax job to cool before the big scrape off. He mentioned that Swoards can be stiffened up in the nose/tail even for the good, soft snow and says that they rip in all conditions.He also compared the "old" Madds to the new batch. I really can't compare since I never rode the originals. Personally, I thought the new 170 was just awesome. Can anyone compare and contrast the old vs new Madd production? BTW, we icecoasters are just jealous of the "sissy" snow. The first dozen runs on Saturday morning were just butter smoove. I wish we had that kinda snow all the time.:(

[gdboytyler]

I could see myself spending my hard earned cash on a Madd or a Swoard.

I could see myself spending that money to go ride in Mammoth, Tahoe, Utah, CO, WY, BC and Europe. Or surf in Hawaii and Indo.

I could even see myself spending that money for coaching at one of the above areas.

But there's no way I'm spending that money to go snowboard on ice or surf small waves on the East Coast.

I'll settle for the ice I get night-boarding in Michigan. And that's because I'm visiting relatives in MI.

And I thought the East Coast vs everyone else arguments only popped up on surf forums:D

[Hotmop]

Wow. I really had no idea my question would unleash such a Jihad. It's like Mac vs Windows. Or Ford vs Chevy.

I guess it all comes down to "do what ya wanna do."

After watching the EC videos online and watching CMC, I'd have to describe Curt's style as more active and the EC style as more fluid. I think people took the "static" comment the wrong way. The efficiency of motion is not a bad thing. I've heard more than one instructor say that remaining as centered and fluid as possible leaves more agility when conditions or terrain require an adjustment.

CMC's style is amazing to watch but also seems very physically demanding. I get the sense he just jams through whatever chunk gets in his way. His edge is set so strongly that ice doesn't seem to matter.

I'm riding Curt's board but end up riding more like the EC style (sans lower angles, obviously). I think the efficiency of the EC style is more attainable for my level of fitness.

By the way, I use a Mac and there's a '71 Mustang Mach I in the yard.

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Hotmop

After watching the EC videos online and watching CMC.....

Any online video clips of cmc's style? I thought I remember seeing some a few months back on snowsticks but their media links are down.

[Maciek]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
(reply- The Madd 158 is a race ready slalom board. Anton Pogue was formerly kicked off the US team and got back on the team by winning World Cups Slalom events on the 158- Adam Hoestetter (Sims Fila), Jeremy Jones (Rossignol) also used the 158 in World Cup Slalom events as well as the US Open. The 170 however should be characterized as either a "Consumer GS/freecarve or a Hardboot boardercross deck)



(reply- this would appear to be contradictory with both Adam Hoestetters weight (light about 155lbs) and Anton Pogue's size and weight (about 185))

(reply-narrow groomed trails with a few steep sections are where the versatility of this deck shines., I would prefer to ride the 170 out West (longer turns) and in Europe (mixed conditions)

(reply- World Cup racers detuned the board to accommodate their preferences and snow conditions...it is far easier on race day to remove extra grip than create it)

(reply- Again- Anton Pogues race results would appear to disagree with the above statement- my riding style would also likely differ with your assesment)


(reply- freecarvers are most interested in holding an edge- racers will trade absolute edge hold for skid in order to shave critical hundreths off a course...the needs are not identical)

(reply- the type of conditions (loose granular) and terrain Maciek is accustomed to at his home mountain in New Jersey might lead to develop a novel style that will not work as effectively in steeper terrain. Also with such short vertical drop New Jersey's resorts likely do not promote good conditioning of his legs- I do not recall seeing his style of riding- but likely CMC's style of riding will translate to most hardpack terrain regardless of snowcondition or pitch or length of the hill - this low slung compressed over the edge type of riding is what we have developed these boards for- the thrill factor on Madd boards is very high. Yes.....at first....it can be a super quadricep burner, but like anything else you adjust. Your body condition improves and adapts. My legs just buzz like crazy at the end of the day and that puts a huge smile on my face the whole ride home...ain't life grand?)


(I would not reccommend a Madd board for a rider like Maciek (based solely on his body angulation from the Avatar photo and the lack of others referencing his riding skills, I think a forgiving wider softer freecarve board in the 165cm length would be appropriate for the terrain and snow conditions likely anything over 170cm would be too much board for a New Jersey mountain snow, terrain and his current riding technique)

Really Smart riders ride what suits the terrain as well as their abilities, personal goals and style.

No so smart riders hop on a unfamiliar carving devices, three days later place high in the world championships and then foolishly celebrate by maching into a set of trees crippling themselves for the rest of the season.



John,


I trained on gates in New Jersey (by the way with Kevin Whirehead and his brother Michael - perhaps not a class of Anton, but still USASA several times champions in GS and SL and they rode with Ross Powers when he was still racing and carving on slopes). I ride 178 GS board for racing with stiffness index as you can see on Donek web site ( GS Samsel model). So that's far more stiffer than Madd could ever achieve and edge hold is not less than Madd 158. Now I don't say that this board is a great choice for anybody. It is too stiff to me either and extremely demanding. It brings only pain to turn in on ruts at high speed (I tested it on skiiers SuperG course back in Wyoming running gates with skiiers - can handle that too).

I am by the way 185 lbs while CMC is much smaller rider.

For everyday, John, I ride regular 185 GS board with 16 m sidecut... just for fun. I can ride it on narrow trails in New Jersey's Mountain Creek, but I bet some don't like when I "fly" it between people in particular on shorter, steeper sections.

To tell the truth, I mentioned "modern racing". Anton, Adam and Jeremy are not modern racers anymore. Technique has changed a lot if you followed race course. That's what racers themselves say if you read an interview with Mark Fawcett by Jack Michaud. That was beginning of quite radical changes I guess. Anton had more of carving technique. Perhaps that's why he was not that successful... perhaps for other reasons, but I admire him like other top class racers.


I ride 160 SL, 178GS and 185GS boards. None of them are freecarving as I follow real racing style that can be applied on gates (call it euro racing style as you can see on Avitar, but that's how racers position look like today). That's much more demanding as far as discipline of riding. You will not be able to make your turn always exactly how you planned. I bet you know that since you rip those cones on street boards.


Anyway nobody races on Madd anymore in the World Cup. Racers use F2, Donek, Coiler, Prior, Tropical Tube boards etc. They ARE differently build boards than Madd and apparently Madd is not suitable for racing. That's not my opinion as you can see. I reapeat, I spoke to Sean and Bruce about racing boards... and I mean real racing boards (my 185 GS is Stradley's board stiffest grade when he was still in World Cup several years ago).


Thanks for recommendations though. Average racer uses more forgiving board these days... unless you think you will be that good that you would ride first runs of the course when you create ruts for others.... and others are worse racers than you so they will have to wait. That's the main difference between carving or riding asphalt and racing on snow.


I bet my legs are not conditioned that well as we don't ride loose granular (opposed to what you said - John have you ever ridden in New Jersey or New York???). Slopes in New Jesey are opened at night as opposed to majority of slopes in the USA. That means that we are used to ride on freezing day-melted snow just like recent conditions in Sugarloaf (that is normal to me). We used to set our gates after every racing skiier is done (snowboard racers are from priviledged). I bet that glaze on rutted course with stubbies cannot promte leg power. Perhaps I felt more fatigue already when half of winter season was approaching. That was probably also dictated by the fact that I used to ride 4 short days a week in a similar conditions... resting on easier trails of Statton.

[John Gilmour]

I'm not sure what to say. After my legs are healed up - we could go riding and you could show me your techniques. Did anyone get video of you at ECES? Who else rides with your style?

But as a native New Yorker- I can assure you that a 600 foot vertical drop mountain in NY or NJ will not promote GS legs. No more than doing lots of reps with weights under 10lbs. will make you a serious power lifter.

I haven't seen anyone race on Madds for a while as we stopped making them long ago.

I'm not sure if I want to spec a new board for the race market and make it available to the freecarve market. I hate to see freecarvers try to ride a pure race set up all day- for most it is too unforgiving.

I'll be the first to admit I don't have the conditioning of athletes who get 200+ days on snow per year. Realistically- seeing the gap in riding prowess between Weekend warrior carvers and World Cup riders I can't see benefiting the weekend guys.

[Kil'-basa]

Looking good!

[Real Dalv]

http://images3.fotki.com/v31/photos/5/53745/233590/offtopic-vi.gif

Freeracers might benefit from too stiff of a board. That's what freeracers are all about. They don't have enough power, they don't have any style, but they have big stiff boards.

[Doug M]

After going through every picture on Steve P's sight of the ECES and seeing all the shots and videos of the sword guys.....I have to say the sword guys get it.Out of 200 shots only a couple of riders looked like they had a clue.This whole thing of guys riding 19 cm boards with their arms flapping around like an albatross in heat is just too funny.Maybe these sword guys are on to something.;)


Doug M

[Bordy]

Get a snow board that works for your style and go ride it!

Wide board low angles = shoulders at angles that match your feet!

Narrow boards high angles= the Ice coast action square shoulder style.

I used to ride 16cm waist on the east coast. Meow I live in utah and Ride 18-20.5 but mostly over 19 unless it is very firm.

My madd rips out here in Utah. You just have to know how to ride it!

I dont have a problem riding any thing on snow. Just takes turns to learn the different motions!

Gilmour- Make a great big long Madd >200 and send it out we'll see how it works

EC- guys send what ever you want as long as it Big.

I'll go see what works best!

Maceik- Yep you Guessed it YOU'RE A BOOB! And your doing a great job of proving it again.

P.S. There are of course some photos of me working a 158 Madd in the "soft good" non East coast snow at hardbooter.com Pres day photos under the gallerys. First day ever in those boots (getting out of SBs), Also just changed to a step in on my old TD1s and I had never ridden that Madd. Took about one turn to get it!

Funny how some of us keep telling you cats that there is a snowboard made for all of you.

Problem is most of you have no idea what some of us really ride and you keep talking Donek this and Prior That. Problem is most of you cant even bend that stuff right, in Weekend Warrior flex.

Or in Macieks case ("Stradley's" oh yea Maciek before you talk smack I know him also, so careful what you say he is a tiny little skinny cat!)

If you are asking about gear you have never ridden and taking advise from the Kooks here on BOL then beware of the results!

Some guys Know whats up.

Most Don't

Gilmour: Creater of the Madd line, Lots of days on edge- aloud to talk smack!

CMC: Always Pimping Madd, rides alot- Suits his Style.

Macek: Always making folks Mad- Big Mountain Jersey Rider keeping it real on the weekends(and when he can get time of work).

Me- I'm Just a cat who likes to ride....

[Bling Bling]

Well listen hear Mister fanncy pants! Swoard Swallower;) I think this picture below from Shred on the Madd 158 is just dandy! doesn't seam to be having a problem of getting down on it!:o Oh looks yummy!

[John Gilmour]

Bordy- nice shots!

BTW I've ridden in Utah- Snowbird, Brighton, the Canyons..

The last two had great carving terrain (Thought Brighton was a bit too flat- yet I think a perfect place to teach carving!)- but you have to know how to ride soft snow carving for UTAH-

I prefer the carving snow in Colorado as I'm not really a Utah powder hound anymore, but I like the marriage laws in Utah enough to still make Utah the destination of choice.

I have to agree that you are better off riding Euro style in softer snow and on wider decks. Square style in soft snow just builds too much edge pressure too quickly in the mush.......of course for ICE that is exactly what you want.

Nice to see shots posted- digging in DEEP!. Do you have any video clips to load???On any deck?- It would be cool to demo both soft carving styles and ice carving styles for people.

Does Maciek have any video footage? I'd like to see the New Jersey style of riding for dealing with Loose granular.

[D-Sub]

Bordy is this you?

http://hardbooter.com/albums/Presidents04/IMG00427.sized.jpg

If so, PROPS! big time. If youre the "billy" at that site..that nose slide was impressive..

but...why so condescending?

"most of you couldnt even bend a board" or something along those lines?

[willywhit]

Got some very positive feedback on Billy Bordy from a Boston BOL'r that took a carving lesson with him a few weeks back while on vaca in Utah. The guy knows his shiznit. I think Gilmour should start a high brow "escort service" ( I mean...brothel ) in SLC after his rehab and we'll get Ron Jeremy aka " the Hedgehog" to endorse it and make some guest appearances. OOPs , wrong again. We'll have to set up shop in Reno and ride Tahoe North all day and do some "railin'" all night. Cold pimpin' YO!:p

[trailertrash]

it is hard to realize on a forum like this but you have to ride with the guy to realize he isnt being arrogant, he is just telling it like he sees it. the guy carves better switch than i can normally. he sees guys like me on my prior which i cant bend to save my life. if you get the chance ride with him or take a lesson with him. you will be glad you did.

[Real Dalv]

I thought it was a http://images3.fotki.com/v31/photos/5/53745/233590/tool-vi.gif , not a boob. Well, it's fun to read.


Has anyone ever seen someone besides Patrice extremecarving on a Sword?

[Maciek]

Originally posted by dalv
or Booby?


Yes. That's me. Booby according to some.

But I have to admit I tolerate Booby from old buddy CMC only;)

[Maciek]

Originally posted by Kil'-basa
Looking good!

See me looking at my watch to find out time;)

<IMG src="http://teamronin.com/eces/riding_thurs/images/IMG_5754.jpg">

[Real Dalv]

Originally posted by Maciek

But I have to admit I tolerate Booby from old buddy CMC only;)

Who do you think is behind Dalv?:D

It used to be I. Time's changed. :(

[Bordy]

but...why so condescending?

D-sub - Noooo not trying to smack down anyone. And Yesss thats me. Thanks for the props that board I am nose pressing is a 196 f2 Super G stick.

Just trying to pound in the fact that every one needs different gear. I own and ride a lot of boards with lots of flexes. Some are to stiff to ride anywhere but on bullet proof pitch. They are to stiff to ride any where else. They would be almost impossible to ride with out perfect weight movements at the right time also.

Some of the Custum-boardbuilder stuff out (donek. prior, coiler,etc) Is also out side the flex range of the normal 30 day a year rider. Some of it is very good as well if you are realistic about your riding with the board builder, or able to ride it. If you buy some of this race stock like the WC or PureRace or RC you better have you sh*t together. If not the board is going to rock your world and you are going to have a bad day.

Problem being a bad day is not what any hardboot brother wishes to another. The goal should be to develop skill on gear suited to your level, as easily as possible. This will make riding better for everone and only spread the hardboot turn.

We as speed cats like to think it is the tool that makes the job easy.

I can carve anything with edges that slides. Some are way better then others, however I think it is knowing how to ride anything nicely, Verses owning some thing that rides really nice.



John- sorry no video on digital media just yet. I am working on it.( First day on my new Compaq it will do al the goodies just working towards a cable line and I'm hip new hotness) We did just shoot some new shots today at PC they will be over at HardBooter.com some time tonight. I think we got some switch pictures at speed as well! I have never seen any switch photos of myself I am very excited. I was dragging my hands and some times chest on toesides and hiting my but heelside, I would really like to see what the weighting and centering looks like.

And finally to my new found friend trailer trash- You can bend your Prior just fine, Only problem is you have to go so damn fast to make it happen that it is hard to learn movement at 25mph things just happen to fast and with to little input to improve your riding.

[D-Sub]

thanks for the clarification, man!

maybe you could help me with some input as to that coiler Im thinkin about ordering:)

NOT getting a race model tho...just a FreeCarve...

[Mike T]

Originally posted by D-Sub
thanks for the clarification, man!

maybe you could help me with some input as to that coiler Im thinkin about ordering:)

NOT getting a race model tho...just a FreeCarve...

If I may butt in...

The beauty of ordering a Coiler is that as long as you are honest about your abilities and goals, Bruce will build the board with a flex suited to you. I've got the "Pure Race" 184 and it's just so damned user-friendly. I'm certainly no Carve Master, I've got so much to learn, but I can turn this board really hard and make it bend. Yeah it's great for going fast on but it's also great for precisely what Bordy was talking about - learning things at 25 mph.

[D-Sub]

good point. dont lie:)

thing is...Ive never ridden with a ripper, never seen myself in a photo or video..so I have NO idea what my true level is!

[Mike T]

Originally posted by D-Sub
thing is...Ive never ridden with a ripper, never seen myself in a photo or video..so I have NO idea what my true level is!

You can describe your level in terms of what you feel comfortable doing, what you don't, and what makes you crap your pants! Think about how icy it has to get or how steep a run has to get before you can't carve. (When I order my Coiler last May I could keep my edge on ice only on a moderately wide green run and I could keep my edge on a steep trail only if it was hero snow AND wide). Describe what you're currently working on. When I've used descriptions like this in the past, experienced riders and board makers have understood where I am at much better than I did!

[D-Sub]

well, hows this?

I HATE ICE. hate it

BUT...last year..mammoth...ridin with headphones. couldnt hear jack ****. (I know, I know, not exactly safe)

I was riding just as hard as I normally do, on my old PJ...

until my gosh durn batteries wore out. Soon as I could _hear_ the ice I started sliding all over the place

wtf is THAT?

to me it means that I have the skills...but got psyched out.

anyway...I definitely dont want a board that is "beyond me" but I also am the type of person that wants to do things the right way. I am an analytical person who always strives for the best, so..I dont want a board Ill grow out of either

I truly appreciate these responses, and Im sure that bruce can help me out!

oh...btw...am I a kook if I hate trying to ride BUMPS?

:)

[willywhit]

Bruce has a unique technique of being able to peel the topsheet off and lay down more biaxial to stiffen your board up. Break a few lams? no prob. he'll buzz it down and lay it up again. pretty cool.After talking to him at length at ECES I was sold on ordering a custom for my 235 pounds and style of power surfing the hill.I figger a Madd 170 for morning groomies and a Coiler All Mountain Freecarve 177 with a 21.5 waist for everything else.Nice and stiff. Bordy's got it right on. TRY many boards before you decide to buy. A custom board won't necessarily make up for lack of ability but it will get you there faster.And custom graphics are the TATS!I want a nice big steaming turd on the tail of my new Coiler right next to the coiler logo.Maybe some "boobs" up by the nose. Bronsky board, eh?

[John Gilmour]

Bordy- when you get some video footage up that would be great.


BTW- did you used to ride a Checker Pig G6 at Brighton about 12 years ago????

Things I would like to see on bomberonline.
Very cool if underneath your avatar you could click on a link to your video clips. That way when you are describing a movement to someone....they can actually see what you are talking about. Would be very cool if you could see the frames.....ie refer to frame number 45634 in a video sequence.

IMHO vert skateboarding took a giant leap forward when video footage became available- my hope is for the same with carving.

Also if you are trying to emulate someone's style it is a lot easier to have a video to follow that.

For instance I might want to choose a person to emulate who was about as flexible as I was, about the same weight and height and age.

Certainly we all have our own styles and develop out own riding techniques, but it is likely that someone who is a great rider and is 5'6" and weighs 210 might ride a lot like someone who is 5'7" and 220. Certainly a lot more like that than someone who weighs 155lbs.

same goes for riding similar gear.

I think we all log onto Bomberonline to become better riders and also help grow this sport and get the newer riders as good as possible as quick as possible...this particularly goes for the more experienced high level guys who are tired of riding steep bullet proof narrow terrain ALONE. The sooner we get everyone riding in a souped up posse' on a high level the better.

Being on the right gear always helps - if you've got 4 inches of fresh ontop of groomed hardpack- I say ride the Swoard! If its only 1 inch ride the 170.

IF the terrain is mellow and you want to EURO carve all day for the chicks on mellow terrain- the Swoard is the board. If Eurocarving suits your style- ride the Swoard. IF you have the unfortnate occassion of spending $70 on a lift ticket and find yourself on narrow trails in the East on Frozen granular don't get even....get Madd.

Ride what suits your mood and conditions and fitness level.

[D-Sub]

TRY many boards before you decide to buy.

problem is this is next to impossible where I live

I rode my PJ7 for a long time, always had fun, felt good, felt that the board held

rode the Killer Loop compGS 180 last time in mammoth, and noticed some difference, but still felt ok on it. Had to speed check a little more cuz the damn thing seemed to want to just go straight down the hill:)

so...trying is pretty much not an option

[Mike T]

On the Mt Hood carve-fest thread you indicated you might come up - I'm sure you could try out some of the other participants' boards. I might try to arrange for some demo boards as well.

[D-Sub]

sweet. Ima try and make that

[bschurman]

I was intrigued by this post so I sent a question off to Bruce and I thought it would be informative to post his reply on this.

->Ben

--- Bruce on----

Well the description is a bit beyond the reality of it . Since the boards are built without the top it really isn't an integral part of the structure.
I usually just peel them off to soften board up a bit if they are in need of a change. I can stiffen too after the fact by putting on the extra glass. I can actually take all the lamination off but it usually damages the wood core and is a real pain in the ass itchy procedure so I wouldn't even attempt it anymore! If the lamination on one of my boards is damaged, chances are the wood core is damaged from overflexing too so it isn't worth the effort. I also don't usually put biax on as it changes the torsional stiffness of the board. Just a bit of a unidirectional is used in most cases. Taking the tops off is hit and miss as some tend to stick too good and peel layers of glass off at the same time. To try and get them off without doing damage takes huge amounts of time. Others just peel off in one shot. It depends on the backing of the topsheet.
Since a Donek is made in one process with the topsheet on and the topsheet really isn't a topsheet as per the usual sense of the term, it would most likely be a more integral part of the board and not so happy ( more like
impossible) to get off.

--Bruce off---


Originally posted by willywhit
Bruce has a unique technique of being able to peel the topsheet off and lay down more biaxial to stiffen your board up. Break a few lams? no prob. he'll buzz it down and lay it up again. pretty cool.After talking to him at length at ECES I was sold on ordering a custom for my 235 pounds and style of power surfing the hill.I figger a Madd 170 for morning groomies and a Coiler All Mountain Freecarve 177 with a 21.5 waist for everything else.Nice and stiff. Bordy's got it right on. TRY many boards before you decide to buy. A custom board won't necessarily make up for lack of ability but it will get you there faster.And custom graphics are the TATS!I want a nice big steaming turd on the tail of my new Coiler right next to the coiler logo.Maybe some "boobs" up by the nose. Bronsky board, eh?

[Zone]

IF the terrain is mellow and you want to EURO carve all day for the chicks on mellow terrain- the Swoard is the board. If Eurocarving suits your style- ride the Swoard. IF you have the unfortnate occassion of spending $70 on a lift ticket and find yourself on narrow trails in the East on Frozen granular don't get even....get Madd.

I found that Euro/EC works best on very steep slopes, not on mellow terrain. Even on steep icy slope around here, it still works. Hard to lay it down completely on mellow terrain if you are trying to link those EC turns. I would agree that EC does impress the younger "chicks" (not my wife somehow !!).:D

[willywhit]

Thanks McFly. The way bruce explained it to me was that the boards could be modified flex and stiffness wise after they'd been ridden. I'd only heard of this through a guy I used to ride with that said he'd sent his Prior back several times to be repaired. It makes sense now. Remember that Bruce has made boards for Jasey Jay and that kind of testing goes into the custom he'll build for you. Please clarify this as well because I got the information whilst in a state of ECES beer bliss. I wonder if HAN has ridden his world cup prize booty board from the raffle.

[Bordy]

John,

Yessss I used to ride a pig G6 (still have it) but noooo not in utah at that time.

But at Temple Mountain in Peterbough, (89-90-91) Rember the monday night series you and da cats at underground put together many moons ago?

We have met and raced one another then. Also much later when you were beta testing Madds I was a Waterville guy(93-94-95). We and several others( Arvid Swanson, Billy Enos, Kildy, Dave Thimmal George Askavold) talked with you about board shape flex and sizes. My roomate and I begged for you to make something bigger then 180 for us. We were all riding Priors or Secert Teams at the time. Matter of fact I hid all my secert teams so you would not see them you know, young kid with Ideas of trade secerts. Ring any bells?

P.S. I like the don't get even get madd line!:D

[John Gilmour]

Arvid Swanson, Billy Enos, Kildy


I remember Arvid riding a Prior with taper back in the day. I still see Bill out there. I'm terrible with names and faces and always ask that people introduce themselves to me at minimum 4 times to hope that the name and face will stick. I only remember Arvid since it sounded like "Harvard"- though I doubt I could place his face. Enos I've seen many times as I have Kildy. We never made any really huge decks because the 180 Madd was a lot of deck and rode like a 197- which I felt was too much for the average consumers ability at the time.

I always think its funny that when I see someone who has been carving for a long time and are at a high level now....about 10 years ago many were riding a G6 or a G5. Man those are squishy boards today....but I feel the missing link that newer carvers need to learn how to boss a board around as opposed to the other way around.

Remeber the Checker Pig Rep. Andy Hirstanapolous (Sp?) he stopped selling Pigs and sold Electroluxes. I bought my first Pig as a Demo for $150.

I'm sure the Swoard is way way way advanced over the G6 but I think people need boards like the Swoard in their quivers - especially to help in transitioning from soft booting to hardbooting. All quivers are better if they are bigger- gives the riders more options.

Those G6 graphics were funny though.

[thomas_m]

Originally posted by John Gilmour

I think people need boards like the Swoard in their quivers - especially to help in transitioning from soft booting to hardbooting. All quivers are better if they are bigger- gives the riders more options.

Those G6 graphics were funny though.

John, what do you think about the all-mountain boards for this niche? I recently purchased a 169 Prior 4wd with a slightly softer layup than normal as my first alpine board. FWIW, I'm a pretty fit 170lbs(surfing & biking) and mostly ride on groomed runs with the occassional (and often ill advised) off-piste jaunt into the trees.

This upcoming weekend will be my first attempt at hardbooting. I'm expecting to eat a fair amount of schitt but no amount of expecting fully prepares for the pain of the reality...

Thomas

[Enzo]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
Arvid Swanson, Billy Enos, Kildy


I remember Arvid riding a Prior with taper back in the day. I still see Bill out there. I'm terrible with names and faces and always ask that people introduce themselves to me at minimum 4 times to hope that the name and face will stick. I only remember Arvid since it sounded like "Harvard"- though I doubt I could place his face. Enos I've seen many times as I have Kildy. We never made any really huge decks because the 180 Madd was a lot of deck and rode like a 197- which I felt was too much for the average consumers ability at the time.



My uncle-in-law is acquaintances with these guys. I believe that Arvid is still a rep for Volkl. Enos is the head snowboard coach for BBTS at Waterville Valley. Both of my boards were purchased indirectly from these guys....a demo Volkl RT163 through Arvid and I picked up Enos's old Hot Blast at a local shop.

Since you mentioned large boards....a few years back I saw one of Anton Pogue's boards ~200-ish cm Super G for sale at a shop near Waterville Valley. The board was a mutant....I had never seen anything like it. In addition to the normal steel edges in their standard location (where the base meets the sidewall), there were two other strips of edges recessed in the base located about an inch in from the edge that spanned the entire running length of the board ....very peculiar. The board was enormous and stiffer than a 2" x 8". Did you (Madd) build this for him? How did it perform?

[justanotherdude]

I must admit that I did not get beyond the first page of reading - got tired of reading individuals pontification of themselves.

Perhaps it started with "CarveMasterCurt"'s, scratch that - "ego master curt, or EMC for short, statement of:


swoard= static rider

Madd = agressive ripper

Nice capitalization. Nice ego from someone that only proclaims to ride runs that a snowcat can go up and 60 year old ladies from Iowa can go down. Gimme a break CMC. How cool you are. I bow down to your arrogance - not really; I laugh at it.

Look, different boards, different styles, different techniques. A Swoard (capital S ego master curt) and a race driven design board from the icy bunny hills of the east coast are designed to do different things.

What do you want to do? Do you want to lay down body carves on a groomed run or do you want to mimic the race style of narrow boards? Either way you are limiting your mindset to runs that a child can negociate.

[mirror70]

http://www.tuckerdogdesign.com/porno/trollwarm.jpg

[D-Sub]

oh my god youre not serious are you?

lord of the carve?

damn. Im gonna have to remember that one!

[Bordy]

Curt,

Jerry Hatu sound very Familiar.. Boo Boo as well. If those cats were at Franklin Pierce (you nailed it) around that time frame and rode at Temple then we all knew one another. I was a bit younger then them as well. In 89 I was still a junior in high school. But was bumping chairs and teaching at the hill. There was only a few of us on plates at the time. Ask you bro's (Boo Boo for sure since he taught there) if they remember Steve Sanders, Larry Giles, Dave Thimmel, or myself, we were the only four local guys riding plates all the time. At the time Sandy Enaguess owned the place and I was dating his god daughter so I sort of had free range. I was a little punk As* at the time so if those cats where around enough I knew them. As for yourself we may have trenched the cord at some point together I used to be a rep for F2 and helped push them out of the days of Asyms and into the speedsters. I was reasonable for the demo fleet from 90-93 if you ever road a F2 demo I probably set it up. Plus it sounds as though we were in the same loop. Also if you have been at Stratton for a bit I used to do all the SIA shows when I was around. We will get it together some time. I look forward to it.

I'm sure Arvid does not ride like he used to, lots of my friends who became reps and or part of the snowboard "world" lost the edge as they devote time to work and family. Vid's got 2 great kids and a history . Plus some Cats just peak and stop riding. He had all the talent necessary to Keep up with all the fast guys at the time I rode with him. He just had a different pace. Heck at one point he was getting all sorts of Burton garb. He had the first Burton Symmetrical 185 I ever saw in like 92.

Good Times On the east coast!!

John,

My pig came from Andy H. as well I got a new one in the plastic for 150 I think I have a Picture of me proudly showing it of as a young tike. It was like a SG board to me when I weighed 130 and was only like 5.6 at the time. What fun. The old days.

Was it You or the John from underground that had 2 broken wrists at the same time one year 90-91ish? I think I remember a Teddy Bear Print cast? Like I said I am A few years younger then ya.

But like Curt said after a while you forget stuff like girlfriends, boards, etc.

[Bordy]

Damn CF........ justanotherdude.

Howz the big mountain I am the Cat you can't catch me grommers are for sissys.. life style.

Just had myself some Nice Irish wiskey the other day Bushmills I think it was? What is the name of the one you like?

Hope the stiff boot stiff binding thing is killing it for ya. Tried anygood soft boards with two much underhang latley.

If you are coming to share the stoke.... sick!

If your comeing to bring the style....sweet!

I just hope your bringing the flavor... not the anger!

Always your PCUTAHBILLY...

[justanotherdude]

I may be mistaken, and if I am, please forgive and correct me me. But, the voracity of the insults that are below my posts seem to be directed at me.

It starts with "don't feed the trolls". KMA. Sorry for a different opinion.

CMC. Even if your last post was directed at someone other than me, what an arrogant bastard you are. Vids and pics. WooHoo. Is your penis that small that you must elongate it with internet insults?

I do not have time for staged videos where I ride, as you do - I am too concerned with surviving.

My grandmnother can carve the groomed runs of the ice coast that you think you are the expert of - on skis. What a hero you are.

Hey CMC, the boy that claims to be the master carver, how many 60 degree slopes have you pointed your precious skills down, on a carving board? None probably, 'cause there aint no real terrain east of the Rockies.

What an arrogant weiner you are. E-Mail me if you are ever in Colorado and I will take you down backcountry ****e that will make you cry for your mamma and a freeride board with softboots - and then I will post here as to your inadequecies. Your arrogance is a disgrace to the hardbooting community and it is imbeciles like you with your narrow minded vision of the chicken****e runs that a hardbooter must ride that limit this sport.

But you feel cool and better, don't you. Take your vids and pics and, well, I won't say here.

Massage your ego and realize that you ride runs that a 4 year old can go down. How cool you are.

[Bordy]

CF lets get it over with dude.

Whaty Up ?

[cmc]

CF you are a ****er, Ill get you back bitch.

[Bordy]

CF,
Same old egos.... Hell no!

Some of us that ride just fine, where we live and have all the fun we want are done being Sweet.

I have shared my love of the sport with every cat I know How ever 1/3 of the people you meet don't like you and I am so cool with that......

Turns out Its our turn to pick out the third we don't like..

Macieks On the top of it right now.

You used to be the Cat up there...

Tring to get your spot back?

I really Don't think you can do it Maciek is a pretty big Boob.

Point being Go ride what ever you want YO!

BUT DON'T TALK SMACK UNLESS YOU CAN MATCH THEM TURN FOR TURN, ANY WHERE, ANY TIME, ANY HILL, ANY CONDITIONS.


Y

As always bring it Chris I really hope you pick on my writing skills first!

Do some thing whitty as always.. maybe you could mention my grandmother or your sister maybe how great your dog rides It what like 7:30 there on a friday time to get your Drink on Yo!

[justanotherdude]

Keep your 60 degree slopes, keep your softboots, west coast fag

No, not quite right. The Rocky Mountains are not on the West Coast - perhaps you missed your remedial geography class. Let us see ... you mentioned homosexuality 3 times in one sentance arrogant curt. Is there something you need to tell us about yourself? Not only are you arrogant, but insensitive as well. Gee ... what a surpirise.

I do not own a pair of soft boots there, Mr. stud. I ride hardboots and carving boards down serious terrain that I am sorry you cannot experience.

What an arrogant doorknob you are.

Do you get it? I can carve CMC - very well. It just gets boring. I am sorry that your skills have not progressed to this point yet that you have the fear of tackling REAL terrain and must insult others because they lack the arrogance that you posses.

Take your vid and show it to the old ladies and young children that go down the same runs that you do, as I am very, very, very far from being impressed.

[justanotherdude]

You are actually more aggressive and idiotic than Maciek.


BUT DON'T TALK SMACK UNLESS YOU CAN MATCH THEM TURN FOR TURN, ANY WHERE, ANY TIME, ANY HILL, ANY CONDITIONS.

Heed this advice yourself sir.

[kjl]

Originally posted by cmc
you sound like a swoard lover, , Ride your swoard, lay it down duuude, study my poppin vid----Thats style and technique.

thats what I thought, a soft bootin west coast faggot. Keep your 60 degree slopes, keep your softboots, west coast fag, dude you are a homo. Show us the vid or shut up
Hey, way to make friends with the west coasters, the Swoard riders, the softbooters, and the homosexuals.

Earning bragging rights = cool.
Using bragging rights = lame.

I like the way you kill the ice, but I don't think I need to meet you. Interesting: I guess we don't need to talk about religion or politics to get to that point.


Sad greetings from a West Coast, sometimes softboot wearing, Swoard loser.

[D-Sub]

heh. and here I was thinkin this place was all mellow without the usual chest thumpers and **** talkers.

NICE ONE guys.

[Bordy]

D-Sub KJL this justanotherdude cat is just really some big mountain I think I can guy named CF.

He is a huge kook whio has very outlandish thoughts of hard booting.

He comes around every know and then all drunk and stupid he is here for a few mounths and then leaves.

He is probably hurt and is on the site to ammuse himself.

Curts got it right as always.

So I will bite as always.

JUSTANOTHERDUDE would you please verify your sick riding with some action photos video or perhaps some friends posting to back your shiznit up?

If you are the elite rider you claim make it happen. Cuz I know a lot of dudes and brother sounds to my like your just another one.

You probably the kind of cat that stares at my big mountain lines wishing you could point the lines I do.

Let me guess couple of beers at the bar and you pointing to stuff you have never even kicked up claiming you schralped it huh "BRO"...

[bobdea]

as for CO well most of it is flat (front range anyhow)
I hope you are not one of those guys that thinks W P or Keystone is "extreme"
tell you what put 30 inches of dry snow on just about anything and I will ride it
on the other hand lay solid carves on 50 deg ice at speed I find more challenging

[NateW]

Earning bragging rights = cool.
Using bragging rights = lame.

Beautiful.

That actually made this thread worth reading.

[D-Sub]

on the other hand lay solid carves on 50 deg ice at speed I find more challenging [/B]

damn. Id like to see this, too

[mirror70]

I think that now is as good of a time as any to point out the fact that my internet cock is this big:

[------------------------------------------------------]

[jason_watkins]

the first thing I agree with strongly enough to post on this thread of sillyness is what bobdea said: my experience here this season is that (barring avalanches) I'm totally unfraid of anything if there's even just a foot of dry loose powder on it. I'm a pretty conservative boarder but even I'll drop a 10+ foot cornice onto a steep bowl on good conditions. But throw in any kind of snow that's harder to hold an edge on, and I know first hand now the consequences of even a simple mistake. On a powder day here I've straightlined slopes I believe to be 45 degree... on a day where you can't hold an edge, even someting more like 35 degree could result in a very dangerous slide.

[John Gilmour]

From the look of Patrice riding the Swoard in the video the flex pattern doesn't look so soft. I think I could have a lot of fun on the board as I like to mix up the styles from time to time. The Prior 4WD looks great for even softer snow and pow-

[bobdea]

wind pack, pow or what ever if it aint shiny chances are its gonna be less hairy
for example I will not want drop 15 ft onto something that looks like a zamboni just went over it
I suck on steep ice in particular on alpine gear
on anything softer I am fine
I did get a little huffy earlier but it does bother me when the "I am more extreme" comments come up
usually the come from people who play in the back country twice a season
no harm intended really

[kjl]

Originally posted by John Gilmour
From the look of Patrice riding the Swoard in the video the flex pattern doesn't look so soft. I think I could have a lot of fun on the board as I like to mix up the styles from time to time. The Prior 4WD looks great for even softer snow and pow-

The Swoard has a very soft flex. I can compare tonight, but I think it might be softer than my Axis. It is snappy+springy, though. Fun to ollie with.

The guys I've seen out here who like to carve offpiste down the steep, crappy, chopped-up, chunky sun-crust and windpack seem to mostly be on 4WD's and love them.

I am teh suck offpiste on my carving board currently (I can get down, but it doesn't really involve carving), so I couldn't tell you how it is in the crud, but I would guess it is pretty good: short, manuverable, and soft.

[John Gilmour]

"John,

Yessss I used to ride a pig G6 (still have it) but noooo not in utah at that time.

But at Temple Mountain in Peterbough, (89-90-91) Rember the monday night series you and da cats at underground put together many moons ago?

We have met and raced one another then. Also much later when you were beta testing Madds I was a Waterville guy(93-94-95). We and several others( Arvid Swanson, Billy Enos, Kildy, Dave Thimmal George Askavold) talked with you about board shape flex and sizes. My roomate and I begged for you to make something bigger then 180 for us. We were all riding Priors or Secert Teams at the time. Matter of fact I hid all my secert teams so you would not see them you know, young kid with Ideas of trade secerts. Ring any bells?

P.S. I like the don't get even get madd line!"
quote---------------------
-=---------------------------------------------

who's who....??

Bordy-
I helped run Back Bay Bikes and Boards, you might be confusing me with a guy who ran The Underground Dave Olcott- he had the unfortunate experience of busting both his wrists- at teh same time....talk about a toilet paper quandry. Both our shops are Boston based. I left Back Bay Bikes and boards to do Madd.

What I do have in common with Dave is that we both went to Boston University and tried to start the first snowboard Clubs at BU. However Dave is the first guy who got faculty support to make the club officially recognized. I Had about 8 members from 85-89, but without a faculty member who snowboarded....we never got funding or recognition from Student Activities Office. Later Dave and a friend of his with Long Blond Hair (forgot the name...perhaps Curt?...Not CMC) started having air and style contests and they didn't like the terrain that was built so they started designing the hits.

From that Stimilon was born. (No Limits spelled backwards)

I didn't race at Temple Moutain, last big races I entered were the US. Open Super G's + slalom in the 90's- though I had to give up my longer decks to teammates.. last Super G run on Standard at Stratton I ran on a 170 ...very icy and dicyn (speeds were pretty high on that course). I raced not so much to improve my racing- but to support other racers on our decks, and to show them that we had people at Madd who weren't afraid to jump into racing .....much like Tom Sims and Jake Carpenter used to do. I think the racers really dug seeing the owners putting it on the line like in the beginning. Most of the time I was more worried about other racers wax than my own set up or checking out the course. By understanding the race experience and working in the pits with the racers I hoped to be able to develop products that worked better in ACTUAL race situations for the racers. I had a great time.

I'm sure I met you at Waterville...did you work at the shop at the base of the mt? I always liked riding with the Waterville crew- you guys represented the East Coast well....IMHO better than the Vermont riders at the time.


Enzo- those crazy decks...I remember they had 2 p-tex platforms....I forgot the brand name though....we didn't make those....though I still am toying with the idea of having another 2nd edge embedded in the sidewall- or top sheet mounted.

I also like ptex sidealls. Never summer has them.....some of those Never summer freeride decks outride some manufacturers boardercross decks for edge hold. Great boards. BJ Slater who used to make ICE AGE boards I think went to design for them at one time ...Great designer. I just trouble shoot problems within our designs/prototypes and introduce new concepts to execute. Though I have been working on specs for competition ready PGS board.

[kipstar]

amidst flashes of useful information, is a showcase of why east coast vs. west coast rap is so popular.....

Somehow I think bomber is better now; I cannot remember any threads quite this severe in a while.

[bobdea]

some of the good stuff was there
all the goods in that thread got yanked!
some coloradan that I swear must of been CF was posting some crazy stuff and I replied all pissy like
ohh yeah it was a good one

[nils]

What if i'm a west coast homo and softboot swoard rider? ;)
Happy 2007 to all!
Nils

[pokkis]

Before i sold my Swoard, i was riding it mainly on softies, great board anyway :ices_ange

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Here is my 2 cents<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

I am rider mostly Killington with European background/more EC style <O:p</O:p

It is a kind of rough up there especially with crappy winter like this, all ice and some snow.<O:p</O:p

I use primary two boards Swoard 175 (I think it soft or medium) I purchased it from Fin on ECES sugarloaf last season,<O:p</O:p

and I have volkle renn tiger 163 <O:p</O:p

Swoard 175:<O:p</O:p

it is great for first 1.5 hours after groomers when there is actually a snow and no people, it can do lower and longer turns, extra wide board seems to dig into the snow when you lay down turn giving me a chance to straiten up my body and stay in low position longer. It is a board that will require more speed and space.<O:p</O:p

I kind of love this one.<O:p</O:p

But after 10 pm when condition get a little rougher it is just getting out of control, this board kind of suck on ice (I am not sure why, perhaps it is a combination of the width and softness) <O:p</O:p

Also I like this board for spring condition and jumps; I had no chance to use it in powder but probably it is not bad.<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p
Volkle renn tiger 163 (probably more similar to Madd 170 just bit shorter)<O:p</O:p

Great board for ice and crowds, I can turn quickly, it works on ice and I can get out of my turn if something is wrong. It is nice on "bumps and ice" kind of terrain very jumpy and I can correct my trajectory easy.<O:p></O:p>

<O:p


I like my boards because they are very different.

I demo Mad on ECES I don’t remember if it was 170 or longer. It was on icy day. It was nice board great on ice but it was not “jumpy” enough for me and too narrow. <O:p</O:p

[Jack Michaud]

Kipstar,

If you didn't mean to post in this nearly 3 year old thread, let me know where you meant to post and I can move your post and all the posts after yours to the right thread.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

I quess i didnt look at dates. The tread was right in the front. I meant to post it there i just didnt realize how old it was.

[kipstar]

Kipstar,

If you didn't mean to post in this nearly 3 year old thread, let me know where you meant to post and I can move your post and all the posts after yours to the right thread.


happy new year Jack. Well spotted; actually this thread was reference in another thread, so I reread it, and after the benefit of 2 years of time, it seems like the insults and sniping are just funny rather than mean. Looks to me like a good reminder that even though we sometime get at eachother, we are all friends (just like Rodney King and LA PD :-) Ok, maybe not quite like that, maybe er, like the pro wrestlers who talk all tough, but then go out for beer after wards.

[Blackbird]

Ninjas have real ultimate power. (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's GOLD!!!!!

Loves them quite a lot doesn't he??!!!!

[bobdea]

willywhit got on swoailer tonight, he loves it
the thing has quite the nose on it, reminds me of the old avalanch patrols (obscure jib decks from the mid '90s)
at some point I wanna ride it.

[Blackbird]

I quess i didnt look at dates. The tread was right in the front. I meant to post it there i just didnt realize how old it was.

Hmmmm just realised myself that the thread is an old one....
Gotta love the dirty talk!!!
Kinda makes me want to start a Knees together or apart thread again!!!

just kidding everyone.... really....:o

[willywhit]

willywhit got on swoailer tonight, he loves it
the thing has quite the nose on it, reminds me of the old avalanch patrols (obscure jib decks from the mid '90s)
at some point I wanna ride it.
Bob, after you left I cranked up the angles and took a few runs. I see what you meant about feeling sketchy on the rutted ice.Good session tho.
Yesterday, I broke out the Madd 170 after a few runs on the Coiler. dano was having trouble on the Burton Coil he just got but ironically be went from pissed to bliss when he started riding the new spoony F2 176.
SO...the Madd was ...not fun. I think it was the hard frozen stuff underneath the loose granular and my trepidation about committing to a real carve at speed.I kept thinking busted shoulder or just carnage in general if I high sided or something. My back leg was getting smoked and after 2 runs had to get back on the Coiler.
Madds really need the right pitch, the right snow, etc to be ridden well. I remember riding a demo for an hour at sugarloaf with Pnut on his Axxess and having a great time on the Madd but yesterday was just the opposite.
Funny how the right gear can mean the difference in having a blast high speed cruising or just cursing all day.
Bob's right, the nose on the Coiler is really blunt and looks more the tail of a board. You can see it , sort of, in this pic.

[Jack Michaud]

ok, let's start a new thread. the title of this one is now irrelevant and controversial.