Carving with a bigger radius

[Skalpel]

Hey all :)

I'm not new to snowboarding.. been 8 years on a freestyle board.. This year is my first real season on a race deck.

My boots are Head's, bindings are F2 titanflex and my board is a Goltes ProRace 180. It's a wonderful deck, have no trouble with it even in a crowded area.. have to slideturn there, though...

The thing is: the board has a radius of 15.6 m... I've seen people carving boards with radiuss like that really nicely.. When I get the speed I can go from edge to edge with no problem, geting quite low, but I'm never able to make a smaller turn.. Really bending the board...

Anyway, I'd really be happy if some of you with longboard experiance would give me some pointers.. how to initiate turns.. etc...

Oh, and dont get me wrong. I knew about the bigger radious when I bought the board. I like it that way.. I like longer boards...

Thanks for any help :) And sorry for my messy english. I'm out of practice..

[queequeg]

Dobar Dun, Skalpel-

PS- this post reminds me of one of my very favourite racing exercises. IF you have access to an old Kemper Bullet or some other straight, no-sidecut antique, mount it up and take some runs, using ONLY (by necessity) flex and drive to carve your turns.
(Coaches, try this- your athletes will really kick ass afterward)
At first, it will feel cumbersome and "loggy", and you'll be forced to exaggerate your driving and 'punching' (pressuring the waist of the board with abrupt, hard kick-extensions) movements.
With practice, you'll pull of slalom turns on a sled with almost no sidecut.

It's at that point that you may leave, Grasshopper.

Wow - that sounds like a kickass exercise! I may just see If I can find such a board for no other purpose than to go through it myself.

[Buell]

Skalpel, I am a lightweight intermediate carver (145 pounds, 66 kg). I have ridden a number of different boards and I am able to vary the turn radius on some and not others. I think that one of the main factors is the stiffness of the board. If it is too stiff for me, it will only carve one radius when I put it up on edge.

Buell

[BadBrad]

Is it easier to flex the board into a tighter radius with a narrower or a wider stance? It seems that narrower would pressure the middle of the board more causing it to flex, but wider would allow you to bend the board by moving your knees, so I don't know which works better.

[Fat Old Bastard]

Thanks for posting that technique. Way back in my self-taught Burton Elite days I fluked upon discovering that if I "swept" my lower legs forward I could get the edge to bite in and they were the only carved turns I ever made back then.

But later when snowboard instructors came into being and lessons became available nobody ever told me about this technique. They mentioned fore to aft weight shift instead.

I must try this technique again.

"Sweep the legs Johnnie !" indeed :D



Dobar Dun, Skalpel-
You live in one of the very best countries I've ever ridden.

I'm usually nearby, in-season, taking a fluke season here at home, though.

Sidecut radius, when you're really working your board correctly, has less to do with turn radius than many think it does.
The Classical European method involves riding at the mercy of your board's sidecut, while the classical North American method involves working the board both to flex it and to drive it forward , beneath you, through the turn.
Try not to just stand there, over your edge, but, instead, push your board GRADUALLY through the turn, from under your knees, starting your turn with your upper body ahead of the board's waist, and ending the turn with your upper body behind the board's waist, by PUSHING the board ahead, NOT by leaning forward, then back.
Stand centered over it, and allow your knees to push the board through the turn.
This technique was a large part of the reason that a group of North American riders once dominated WC alpine boarding.
Unfortunately, it's not taught through the American s/b "teaching" system (:sleep:), and it goes virtually unrecognized in European teaching or coaching systems.

I may be getting over there for an event or two, I'd glady hook up with you to work on this- which Mountain are you at?

PS- this post reminds me of one of my very favourite racing exercises. IF you have access to an old Kemper Bullet or some other straight, no-sidecut antique, mount it up and take some runs, using ONLY (by necessity) flex and drive to carve your turns.
(Coaches, try this- your athletes will really kick ass afterward)
At first, it will feel cumbersome and "loggy", and you'll be forced to exaggerate your driving and 'punching' (pressuring the waist of the board with abrupt, hard kick-extensions) movements.
With practice, you'll pull of slalom turns on a sled with almost no sidecut.

It's at that point that you may leave, Grasshopper.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Punch It!!!!!!!


Gain Weight :)

[BlueB]

Dobar dan Skalpel and Williamblake ;)
I happen to originate from those parts of the world, too.

Now, is this push forward the equivalent of the old "jet turn" technique from the days of old long skis? Back in late 80' just before the dawn of shaped skis, when I did my ski instructing training, they told us about this trick. However, it wasn't the part of the mainstream Yugoslav Ski School and we were told that it didn't really work for accelleration. Later when dinghy sailing became my main sport (and I sailed at much higer level then skied) one of the cheating techniques was "pushing" or "ooching" the boat. It did work for accelleretion, so it should work on snow too, no?
I guess, my question is, while on skis this is more of a slalom trick - explosive move, on snowboard it would be more of a gradual movement? Or just as sudden as on the skis, as we are really trying to tighten the turn?

Boris

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Is it easier to flex the board into a tighter radius with a narrower or a wider stance? It seems that narrower would pressure the middle of the board more causing it to flex, but wider would allow you to bend the board by moving your knees, so I don't know which works better.

Narrower = more flex.

Don't let that decide your stance width though.

[BlueB]

:confused:

I also feel narrower = more flex, unless one is using knees together no-no technique to bend the board in the middle.
It's kinda basic physics, closer to the centre you get more leverage onto tip/tail, or centre of effort closer to where you want to decamber the board - at the apex of the boards arc?

[BlueB]

I though we were talking stance width, on a very same board, whatever that would be...
So my thinking was, narrower the stance = more pressure to the centre of the board = easier decambering. While the wider stance would give more stability and more leaverage for swinging the board around, when need be. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Appologies to the newbies.

[David Glynn]

Skalpel, The more you get a board up on edge the tighter it will turn. And the more you can decamber the board the tighter it will turn.The decambering of the board is the more important of the two but the two go hand and hand, in other words the higher the edge angle the more you can decamber the board. Decambering a board creates an arc in the board that will allow even a board without any sidecut to turn.The sidecut built into the board dictates the normal turn shape that of course can be changed through rider input.
To get the board up on edge to it's maximum you need to get the board as far away from you as practical for the given situation. To decamber the board I prefer a narrower stance and if you really want to decamber the board to it's utmost squeezing the knees together will work wonders (and even this has many variables i.e. boot type, stance, etc.). Though it is considered bad technique it does work. I usually won't use that technique in my normal riding but will, when the need arises. But remember the best tool for decambering the board is edge pressure.
My favorite board over the years was a 197 burner with a 19 meeter side cut and quite stiff. If you got that board up on edge and decambered it, it would turn tightly. My board of choice now is a Coiler pure race 181 with a 15 meeter side cut and a 7.1 stiffness rating on Bruce's scale. It is stiff and I only weigh 165. Again put that board up high on edge and decamber it and it will turn tight!

[RDY_2_Carve]

Thank you, David


:confused: Who considers riding with the knees together "bad technique"?
I try to keep mine together as much as possible, and I encourage my athletes to do the same. The strength and stability offered by bonding the knees is great.

There was quite the discussion on "knees together" or "knees apart" here a season or two ago. Such a huge arguement that there was quite the "falling out" here...

If you got about 4+ hours you MIGHT be able to read through the thread...

Search either of the above quotes if you dare.

Promise me you won't leave BOL WB because I am REALLY enjoying your posts. I think we lost a few good posters because of that "knees together" thread.

[nekdut]

William, I love your contributions to BOL and your suggestions are gold, but whats your take on this article?

http://bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm

I just want to get your perspective. I do NOT want to revive that very heated battle. :)

[Pow]

William, I love your contributions to BOL and your suggestions are gold, but whats your take on this article?

http://bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm


can of worms classic... diet is for whimps.

[Skalpel]

Hey :)

Thanks to all for contibuting to this thread, especially WilliamBlake for the first reply... It opened my eyes and really gave me hope in achieving what I want in my carving...

[NateW]

If you want turn tighter, you need more edge angle.
There are two ways to get more edge angle:
1) more inclination - lean your whole body further to the inside
2) more angulation - bend your body to tilt the board up without leaning in further

Angulation will get you tighter turns at the same speeds. But to get more inclination without falling to the inside, you need to be moving faster.

Find a big open slope and ride a little faster than you normally would... and then a little faster than that. Keep increasing your speed and you will probably find that your turns get tighter as you go faster.

[nils]

its funny you opposite euros vs US there, because i think its not related to origin but to what size/kind of board you are riding that leads to passive vs active carving...
US has many 'long carving tools' riders, such as tinklers and other 200+ boards and i'd say people that ride long and heavy tools like that are what i'd call passive riders...on the other hands you have people riding 158 madds or blasts and working the hell out of the juice those boards give ( pop, extreme tail energy etc..)... the balance aka size that is in between would be a board in the 165-178 cm range ( board lively enough to be popped, but also passive or flegmatic if you ask to ride its radius...
From all the vids i've seen from people on those long carvers, i have not seen a single one pop the tail, do air transistions etc... those beasts are great carvers that are too heavy and stiff to be worked like a 158 SL board anyway.

We still have many people on blasts, speedsters over here that open big eyes when u say your board is 175cm saying that"s too long!! 178 F2's are considered for powerfull guys with huge legs, and definitely not for "passive carving" over here...

This said, i pretty agree on the comment passive/active riding.. that's the fun of the sport beeing able to cruize (longboarding) down the line and roller coasting a fast turning board with a short radius..

N

[carvedog]

its funny you opposite euros vs US there, because i think its not related to origin but to what size/kind of board you are riding that leads to passive vs active carving...
US has many 'long carving tools' riders, such as tinklers and other 200+ boards and i'd say people that ride long and heavy tools like that are what i'd call passive riders...

You are right that it is not about US vs euros but style of riding. Not size.
I am very active on my Burner (197) and love to :1luvu: pop off that split tail and get those airborne transitions. There are also a couple of very narrow runs that I love to ride. (there is a lotta love in the room today) Maybe it is particulart to the Burner, but when want I can tighten the carve on this board quite easily and carve it short off the tail. Early reach for the snow hands doesn't work good for this, but shifting hips back slightly or pushing th board through does. If I wasn't super active carver, I would be in the trees dead right now. While not reccommended for beginners there is nothing like imminent impact with a tree to focus on tightening up your turn, being active ( pro-active) and not just riding the sidecut. Which can be fun too.

I know the waist is only 18 cm but I carve full armpit to armpit carves on this board as well.

[Istvan]

Hi William,

Sorry for my ignorance, but I always have difficulties with snowboarding terminology, hence a question: do you use the word 'eurocarving' as a synonym for 'extremecarving' i.e. linking fully laid turns?

If so, then I can assure you, EC is pretty far from a passive riding style. If done on a real steep, one has to push quite actively to get the board turning before you approach the speed of light going downwards.... In case you try to do EC on a less steep terrain, then the challenge is to maintain a sufficient level of speed so that you can stand up after a laid turn. In order to do that you will again have to push-pull intensively.
Just my 2 cents.


Cheers

[BadBrad]

If you want turn tighter, you need more edge angle.
There are two ways to get more edge angle:
1) more inclination - lean your whole body further to the inside
2) more angulation - bend your body to tilt the board up without leaning in further

Angulation will get you tighter turns at the same speeds. But to get more inclination without falling to the inside, you need to be moving faster.

Find a big open slope and ride a little faster than you normally would... and then a little faster than that. Keep increasing your speed and you will probably find that your turns get tighter as you go faster.

I've actually been finding the opposite, which has been frustrating me. The faster I go, the bigger my turns get. On a moderate green/blue slope I can link nice tight turns, but on steeper slopes I gain speed and I can't get the board to turn as much. Even on the easier slope, when I get going fast I can't turn as tightly. I just can't seem to get the board way up on edge when I'm going fast.

[Istvan]

That's what I'm saying.... if you don't push the board you'll gain a lot of speed and end up speeding down in a straight line....

Maintaining an appropriate level of speed is the key to a good (fun)carving.


Cheers

[nils]

yes carvedog, forgot the burner which is in a special category ( long but pops like a 158 :) )

Nils

[yyzcanuck]

... The faster I go, the bigger my turns get. .... ... I just can't seem to get the board way up on edge when I'm going fast. Perhaps what is really happening is "the bigger my turns get, the faster I go".
Board inclination is mostly about body angulation. I find it very difficult to get the board into a high edge angle position if I'm being lazy (and I DO like to be lazy). If you work on your body position being very angulated, the board will follow suit and become highly inclinated.

[nils]

You're still citing passive carving:
You're defining riders by what they ride, not how they ride.
An accomplished carver will be comfortable performing Sl. turns on a 180= cm board, and DH turns on a 159.

Indeed, but its not what is usually seen.. people tend to cruize on 180 aka let the radius and flex take them into the turn, and people on 158 tend to do SL turns that are more physically and technically challenging to my opinion..

N

[carvedog]

Actually, I AM referring, accurately, to origin:

Eurocarving (passive carving), as a movement (meaning a trend enjoyed by a large number of people) began in Europe with Jose Fernandez.

Active carving (again, as a movement) began in North America with the Burton/Cross-M team of 89-90.

Please bear in mind that I'm no stranger to either movement, or to either continent. The bulkj of my coaching and instruction (and SS Direction)is done in Europe, even though I'm an American.

Didn't know the terms Passive carving and Active carving were specifically related to particular movements.

My movement right now is to go to the mountain for a couple of hours of active carving. I may be standing up or fully laid out, but it will be active. :rolleyes: